[Closed] At what price do we like Tesla?

Are you anticipating they will rise again?

Pretty volatile at the best of times, Tesla don't really fit in the mold of investment shares, they almost appear to be market driven for one reason or another, because reality is that those pushing the prices up are selling it as investing in the future profitability, rather than the current and forecasted profitability.

They've basically gone up tenfold in a year or so due to people buying the dream, that Tesla will create and lead the future of car manufacturing and sales, that the technology will have widespread applications that'll make further profit and so on, realistically though that isn't focusing on others who might steal Tesla's thunder in the next few years, it only takes one company to create an edge for the rest to fall.

In short, i'd avoid it unless you're buying the dream, which to be fair isn't a bad dream!

it only takes one company to create an edge for the rest to fall.

I think that's just around the corner now the mass manufacturers have got their electric products available.

I am probably overexposed already through VWRL, but I reckon I'll get a fraction more through [url= https://magic.freetrade.io/join/adam/2e6bb8e3 ]freetrade[/url] if it goes sub $500.

On trading 212 you can buy a fractional share

Would you invest in a company that is $12bn in debt and only just turned a profit for the first time last year at a time after Tesla has had a monopoly for a decade and when all the other bigger and better car makers are about to launch a deluge of brand new competing cars at a variety of price ranges and better build quality? Tesla's been a one trick pony and others can copy and recreate faster and cheaper, and innovate quicker once they've caught up. Being a market disruptor is great but what's your follow on act? most don't have one and fade away and become pretty conventional and run of the mill - look at Dyson. If you do then good luck to you and I hope you turn a fortune...fortune favours the brave they say, but far more people lose from risky investments than win.

Tesla has been an anomaly. Who's to say they will continue to buck the trend or will the usual market behaviour eventually catch up with them and their evangelical investors with bottomless pockets suddenly lose faith and move onto the next big thing? Its a high risk investment for sure. But then I'm pretty risk averse.

For me, when I can get one secondhand at about £1.5k.

The rest of you will be in flying cars by then though.

Edit: I thought you meant the price of the actual cars.😁

Only way is be getting in to Tesla is with a short position.

I've had a few little goes shorting Tesla the last few days. I think this current US tech/meme stocks correction could well have a few days left to run.

Tesla is impossible to guess though because it's got a massive cult of personality behind it. People invest in conventional blue chip stuff because it's a solid investment that should grow over time. Whereas there are reddit forums where they call Elon Musk 'Papa Elon' and analyse his every tweet and bowel movement...

400 seems like a plausible medium term outlook, and I'd consider a flutter at that price, but it's always so volatile, who can say?

all the other bigger and better car makers are about to launch a deluge of brand new competing cars at a variety of price ranges and better build quality?

The crap Tesla build quality myth is now exactly that. In fact they are now ahead of legacy manufacturers in chassis manufacture by deploying large aluminium casting enabling the Model Y frame to be cast in a couple of pieces. in terms of drive train efficiency only Hyundai is up there with them. The EVs recently marketed by VW and Mercedes, Volvo etc show that Tesla are at least 5 years ahead of them. When Gigafactory Berlin gets up and running later this year they will sell everything it makes. I reckon the only thing that could stop them is failure to develop new models- especially the styling aspects if the pickup is anything to go by. I could easily imagine Musk green lighting something like this

Having just driven anew model 3, I’d say it’s still crap. The interior is low rent, cheap plastics. The panel gaps on the bonnet and wing are appalling compared to my 17y old 3 series, never mind my I3 and the paint thickness on the door lower edges beggars belief. It drives well, but I wouldn’t want to own one.

Car manufacturing and airlines have historically been terrible investments. Tesla make luxury vehicles that compete with BMW, but they are barely profitable at best, while BMW are extremely profitable. That means that their manufacturing costs are much too high, and that will be extremely difficult to improve.

With affordable cars, it's not a matter of making the best car, but just one that is good enough and cheap to manufacture. That's why Toyota have come to dominate - their vehicles are generally mediocre, but affordable and reliable. Toyota factories are the most efficient in the world, so Tesla need to learn to build cars as cheaply as Toyota, with the same quality control. If they can't do that, I don't see how they can survive.

Having just driven anew model 3, I’d say it’s still crap. The interior is low rent, cheap plastics. The panel gaps on the bonnet and wing are appalling compared to my 17y old 3 series, never mind my I3 and the paint thickness on the door lower edges beggars belief.

And yet, I’ve got one parked on the drive that has consistent and perfect panel gaps all round, with great paint, and an interior the match for my previous Jaguar. Certainly a load better than the BMW 3 SE I hired early last year. One might think you were exaggerating a touch for effect.

But anyway, back to the topic at hand, because attempting the challenge prejudices against Tesla is boring and fruitless.

I’ll be happy to buy into Tesla again, when they fall below the price I sold at last year; $414. Wish I’d just held for another two months, would have made a tidy sum. Hindsight is alway 20:20 with share dealing.

The crap Tesla build quality myth is now exactly that.

So the panel gaps are all in people’s imagination?

So the panel gaps are all in people’s imagination?

In the vast majority of cases yes. In the imagination of those who have never owned one of the cars and are just repeating what they’ve read on the internet.

Yes early cars where pretty shonky and the odd one still gets through. But the current ones are as good as any other manufacturer in their segment.

I’m not prejudiced against Tesla, what I was highlighting is that their drivetrain and software (along with the supercharger network) are the things that have set them apart from the mainstream up-to this point. Their share price is not backed up by market share, product quality or even (up until very recently) IP and with mainstream manufacturers (especially Porsche/VW) now making inroads into all of Tesla’s key USPs, how long can a car that many see as inferior (whether you believe it or not) especially in the interior when placed next to an Audi/Merc, which are the cars they’re competing against at that price point.

If VW span out Porsche...

What most forgot is Tesla are not a car company. They’re a sustainable energy company. Their share price not wholly driven by what they can do making cars, but by what they can do making batteries, solar panels etc.

Tesla could stop making cars tomorrow, but they wouldn’t disappear and they wouldn’t regard it as failure.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/about

Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.

Today, Tesla builds not only all-electric vehicles but also infinitely scalable clean energy generation and storage products. Tesla believes the faster the world stops relying on fossil fuels and moves towards a zero-emission future, the better.

To create an entire sustainable energy ecosystem, Tesla also manufactures a unique set of energy solutions, Powerwall, Powerpack and Solar Roof, enabling homeowners, businesses, and utilities to manage renewable energy generation, storage, and consumption. Supporting Tesla’s automotive and energy products is Gigafactory 1 – a facility designed to significantly reduce battery cell costs. By bringing cell production in-house, Tesla manufactures batteries at the volumes required to meet production goals, while creating thousands of jobs.

And this is just the beginning. With Tesla building its most affordable car yet, Tesla continues to make products accessible and affordable to more and more people, ultimately accelerating the advent of clean transport and clean energy production. Electric cars, batteries, and renewable energy generation and storage already exist independently, but when combined, they become even more powerful – that’s the future we want.

The crap Tesla build quality myth is now exactly that.

Elon Musk disagrees.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html

Yes early cars where pretty shonky and the odd one still gets through.

Having "the odd one" getting through means that their QC is not up to scratch.

Tesla has had a monopoly for a decade and when all the other bigger and better car makers are about to launch a deluge of brand new competing cars at a variety of price ranges and better build quality? Tesla’s been a one trick pony

I have no skin in the Tesla game but with this statement you have shown why you should not be giving investment advice on a company you clearly have no facts on and just preconceived ideas.

They have fingers in lots of pies cars are not their end game.

In the last six years I’ve had

A brand new Mercedes that needed a new communications module within a week of owning it.
A brand new Jaguar that was built with the wrong seats.
Another brand new Jaguar that was delivered with all four doors wonky.
A brand new BMW that had different coloured bumpers to the body.
(And a Mazda that is perfect 😉 )

Tesla are no better or worse than their competition.

I’d not be using Jaguar for a build quality comparison. I thought the Tesla panel claim was exaggerated too, until I looked at Teslas on chargers. Audi E-Tron launch editions were terrible, it nearly put me off ordering a one but they sorted most issues out quickly. Except the smart mirrors they are still causing problems.

When everyone's making EVs, Tesla will go from an an amazing technology disruptor to just another car company. When everyone's making battery storage solutions, they'll be just another battery storage company.

I'm not an investment adviser though.

When everyone’s making EVs, Tesla will go from an an amazing technology disruptor to just another car company. When everyone’s making battery storage solutions, they’ll be just another battery storage company.

Presumably the same thing that happens to any company making any thing .....

Lol @ someone saying Tesla are a one trick pony - they're still leagues ahead of most traditional manufacturers and are continually investing in battery tech etc. Sure the gap is closing and in some areas (interior quality for one) they're fallen behind premium models from other manufacturers.

I think their biggest Achilles heel is their servicing network, they're just totally blinkered focusing on sales - that said they've been shipping cars in decent volume for several years now and a consumer backlash hasn't caught up with them so it may never be an issue (or they might decide to fix it before it's too late).

As for trading in their shares - it's not far off bitcoin in terms of risk IMO and shorting you need to put a lot of money on the line to make a decent return.

they’re still leagues ahead of most traditional manufacturers

Got any information on this?

Presumably the same thing that happens to any company making any thing

It does, which is what led me to start a thread a while back musing on companies who invent something and somehow manage to stay as major players despite everyone else making the same product.

Dunlop
Mercedes-Benz
Bic (sort of)

etc

Arguably Tesla is a one trick pony but the trick is not the car but rather the batteries. They’ve managed to maximise efficiency in the cells to an extent others haven’t and this includes space; giving their vehicles an advantage.

In terms of the software that runs the cars - that it works is amazing given it is a massive cludge of code. Why have one line when 20 can be written. Similarly the hardware that code sits on is a bit Heath Robinson. Though there does appear to be some work going on to improve that.

In terms of the software that runs the cars – that it works is amazing given it is a massive cludge of code. Why have one line when 20 can be written.

I’d love to know how you know that. Unless you work for Tesla, I’d be surprised if anyone gets to see the source code.

And Elon has stated his developers are measured on how many lines of code they don’t write, as is the case in most software development. He was challenged in a recent interview about how complex the code was and how it must be measured in millions of lines, and explain clearly why that was not a good measure of software development.

Why IS everyone so obsessed with panel gaps and soft touch plastic?

I love the idea of Tesla cars - a new brand doing something unique. One of my pal's has a generous car allowance scheme at work and got one (Model 3 turbo nutter) May last year. Admittedly he's only done 7k miles in it since but a direct quote from him is "It truly is a pile of shite. Worst car I've ever owned and if it caught fire tomorrow I'd be delighted. Should have got an M2 Comp instead". I'd still like to have a go in it but it doesn't sound as desirable as I was expecting. The only Tesla I've ever been in was the first one which I thought was fantastic.

Anyway, I thought they were a bitcoin investment vehicle now, not a car company? 😉

Why IS everyone so obsessed with panel gaps?

If the gaps are uneven, it's an indication that the QC in the factory is poor. For a luxury maker like Tesla to have poorly fitting panels is not a good sign.

I cannot remember the detail but i read somewhere recently that one of the reasons Tesla made a profit last year was due to them selling off some sort of allowance to other car manufacturers. I think manufacturers have to sell  a % of EVs or face a fine but they can buy unused % from companies and as Tesla are 100% EV they have a lot to spare and sold this off. As manufacturers sell more EVs in the years ahead they will buy less allowance from Tesla and this could hit turnover. Or something like this.

Edit. Here's a link

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/23/teslas-sale-of-environmental-credits-help-drive-to-profitability.html

A ten fold increase in any price should have warning signals all over it. At some stage the tech rally will end and valuations return to normal.

The non tech uk listed companies have been massively oversold, they 're coming back to pre covid valuations and still paying nice dividends so as a long term investment still attractive.

To me the best time to buy is when everyone is selling, just dont tell anyone you 're doing it or they think you ve lost the plot.

Regardless of whether it's a work of genius of a pile of crap, the Model 3 is in a league of its own sales wise (for EVs).

For all the talk of BMW / VW etc taking over, they're still nowhere in terms of EV sales.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/21/tesla-model-3-sales-were-almost-triple-the-2-electric-vehicles-global-sales-in-2019/

Are they still going to be around and relevant in 10yrs? Highly likely, unlike most of the speculative penny stocks many are talking about.

What will be the biggest differentiator in 10yrs? Software and patents. Germans will catch up on drivetrain but can’t even make a radio work. Until they pay market rates for top end software developers they will never catch up.

Any other risks non direct risks? Petty trade wars making both overseas car sales and rare earth metals procurement challenging.

Would I own one. Na, Model 3 looks like an expensive Ford Mondeo to me.

What is the ideal price? Can’t time the market. I wouldn’t want bet for or against them. That said I am happy for BG ETF to judge and give exposure. I dollar cost average that fractionally using T212.

For all the talk of BMW / VW etc taking over, they’re still nowhere in terms of EV sales.

For all the talk of Tesla being a monopoly, they're still nowhere in terms of car sales.

A market cap in excess of that of the combined top 6 car makers does not make it a monopoly. It does make it very expensive though, and ultimately, either it needs to up its manufacturing capability to match 6 globally massive companies, or its price needs to converge closer to what it currently does and what it's short/medium term outlook is likely to be. And that medium term outlook is probably not to make more cars than Ford, Toyota, VAG,... combined.

So if it's share price dropped 95%, then it might be arguable to be a fair price.

Monopoly in disruptive business in the automotive sector, certainly.

Speculating on a single volatile stock is not investing unless you've done the research, have an entry position, a plan, an exit strategy and a bail out exit strategy.

Personally my exposure to Tesla is via funds like SMT, which have big exposure. Again that's quite speculative too, but shared out across a few big players, and has also had a big price drop in recent days. Big discount to NAV too, so might be cheap. Why speculate on a dope smoker's next tweet, when you can split that gamble across Amazon, Alibaba, etc, too?

Personally my exposure to Tesla is via funds like SMT, which have big exposure

Same here, down over £100k last week 🙁

I love the idea of Tesla cars – a new brand doing something unique.

Not for long.

I bet I see as many non-Tesla EVs as Tesla EVs, and they've been around a lot longer.

I’d love to know how you know that. Unless you work for Tesla, I’d be surprised if anyone gets to see the source code.

Regular reader of The Register amongst other IT pubs. There have been some good pieces over the years including interviews with Tesla engineers.

I could equally ask do you sell Tesla’s for a living?

Why IS everyone so obsessed with panel gaps and soft touch plastic?

Because when I’m spending a lot of money on a car I’d expect them to be better quality. If you can’t get even the bodywork right I’d be very concerned about the rest.

For all the talk of BMW / VW etc taking over, they’re still nowhere in terms of EV sales.

Both are very early stages relatively speaking in EV terms, Tesla were in first with the long range. Plus America they love them as you know it’s American.

They’ve managed to maximise efficiency in the cells to an extent others haven’t and this includes space; giving their vehicles an advantage

Hyundai and Kia are now apparently leading the way in batteries and motor tech.

No-one is anywhere near Tesla for charging.

Arguably the next year or so will see much better vehicles than Tesla being launched.

One of my pal’s has a generous car allowance scheme at work and got one (Model 3 turbo nutter) May last year. Admittedly he’s only done 7k miles in it since but a direct quote from him is “It truly is a pile of shite. Worst car I’ve ever owned and if it caught fire tomorrow I’d be delighted. Should have got an M2 Comp instead”.

This is why taste and perception are everything. I’ve driven all the current M car and thought they were hateful. Cross-shopping between a Model 3 and an M2 is odd, and likely he was never going to be happy. He’ll have only got the Tesla because the M2 as a company car would have cost him an absolutely fortune, so he’s already predisposed to resent it.

If the gaps are uneven, it’s an indication that the QC in the factory is poor. For a luxury maker like Tesla to have poorly fitting panels is not a good sign.

Tesla are not, never have been, and never will be, a luxury car manufacturer. They’re a premium brand but not luxury.

And panels gaps can be an indication of poor design, or poor parts manufacture as much as quality control. The thing could be built and finished perfectly, but if the parts are the wrong shape, they’re not going to fit.

Regular reader of The Register amongst other IT pubs. There have been some good pieces over the years including interviews with Tesla engineers.

I could equally ask do you sell Tesla’s for a living?

No. But I did write some of the code for one of the first content management systems used by El Reg a very long time ago.

I’m not blind the Tesla’s faults, I’ve owned a lot of cars and driven many more. My Tesla is no better or worse than the majority of them.

I think Tesla is becoming risky - when Toyota make this kind of announcement, they mean business.
https://asiatimes.com/2021/03/is-toyotas-fuel-cell-module-a-hydrogen-breakthrough/

No-one is anywhere near Tesla for charging.

In what sense?

They're normally in a different bit of the service station car park.

Their wide ranging network of super chargers and integration with the vehicle so you don't have to fanny around with various apps and other such nonsense for the remaining also wide ranging bits and pieces of collective assorted network that is being developed by the rest.

Their wide ranging network of super chargers and integration with the vehicle so you don’t have to fanny around with various apps and other such nonsense for the remaining also wide ranging bits and pieces of collective assorted network that is being developed by the rest.

I’ve one card that covers pretty much every network no need for Apps, it gives me access to thousands of chargers.

In what sense?

The buy a car, have a charging network for you that's fast and reliable, available everywhere.

There's a good few reviews online such as Harry's Garage, Pistonheads, Mat whatshischops etc. All commenting that charging via Tesla system is more reliable

The buy a car, have a charging network for you that’s fast and reliable, available everywhere.

Nearest current Tesla one for me is 35 miles away, there is a new one 15 miles away that’s not open yet or I can access the dozens between them. Tesla have about 20% of the chargers in the U.K. which isn’t too bad but it’s shrinking.

Loads of data here of the networks and numbers.

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

Seems it’s a longtime since I last looked. Tesla have 8% of the chargers across the U.K. many of which are the slower chargers.

Assuming you don't live in a flat......charging points near your residence are not a concern unless your conditioned to think that you'll be free charging far into the future.

I’ve one card that covers pretty much every network no need for Apps, it gives me access to thousands of chargers.

So your car can find all those chargers....tell you if they are currently in working order and/or occupied and direct you to the most efficient route to take advantage of the on route chargers.

when Toyota make this kind of announcement, they mean business.

Hydrogen looking like a longer shot than ever now. I don't think we've really moved towards a hydrogen economy at all in the last decade, have we?

I’ve one card that covers pretty much every network no need for Apps, it gives me access to thousands of chargers

Of which a large proportion will be out of service (Ecotricity) or there is just one fast charger at a location behind a pub somewhere. Also your car nav system cannot tell you which of those are in service or how many at each location are unoccupied like the Tesla system can (zap-map cant either). By-the-way I'm a Hyundai Kona, soon to be e-Niro, driver so no Tesla fanboi but I can appreciate that the non-Tesla charging infrastructure is years behind Tesla. Hopefully the likes of Instavolt , Shell Re-charge and Gridserve will change that.

So your car can find all those chargers….tell you if they are currently in working order and/or occupied and direct you to the most efficient route to take advantage of the on route chargers.

Of course not just like my diesel couldn’t tell me if a garage had diesel pumps working. However, zap-map can which is on my phone, that said I’ve no idea if the car can as I’ve not needed to check it does show chargers on the sat nav though as I see the icons.

Assuming you don’t live in a flat……charging points near your residence are not a concern unless your conditioned to think that you’ll be free charging far into the future.

What? It’s an example of them not being everywhere, like I say seems they now have a tiny percentage of chargers.

Of course not just like my diesel couldn’t tell me if a garage had diesel pumps working.

When each filling station has at least 2-3 diesel pumps and they are occupied for about 5 mins at a time its not exactly necessary is it?

So seems dracs EV is like his iPad. Completely infallible.

What? It’s an example of them not being everywhere, like I say seems they now have a tiny percentage of chargers.

I assume when your away from home you'll be in transport corridors.

I assume you don't live on a motorway.

It seems logical to start the journey charged from home and then use the chargers in transport corredors . This works as the car works out where is good to charge based on the network.

So seems dracs EV is like his iPad. Completely infallible.

No, not at all you just keep bringing up issues that were once a problem which no longer are as bad.

When each filling station has at least 2-3 diesel pumps and they are occupied for about 5 mins at a time its not exactly necessary is it?

I’m talking about having no diesel working pumps. It happens, rare, but it happens chargers being out of service isn’t as bad as some make out either. They can be occupied of course.

I assume when your away from home you’ll be in transport corridors.

I do the A1 which only has 1 Tesla network between the main city and furthest town.

Just checked, 1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh which isn’t live yet.

It seems logical to start the journey charged from home and then use the chargers in transport corredors . This works as the car works out where is good to charge based on the network.

It seems logical that it may not always be fully charged or that I’d rather use the free providers so I may need to charge on route or at the destination.

Ah I’ve just realised who I’m replying to I’ll leave it at that

It happens, rare, but it happens chargers being out of service isn’t as bad as some make out either.

From my experience I beg to differ. A browse through zap-map shows plenty out of service. For example the two Ecotricity chargers at our local motorway services have been down for over 6 months and the Shell Recharge CCS plug at the same services has only just been repaired after months of being out of service. Two Geniepoint chargers at separat elocaitons near us cut out after 20 mins and 5 mins charging respectively when I tried them (not a vehicle issue it works with plenty others).

Like I say not as bad as some make out.

I’m talking about having no diesel working pumps. It happens, rare, but it happens chargers being out of service isn’t as bad as some make out either.

Rare nee freek occurance. I think I've had more flat tires than examples of the above. Yet uponthedowns single point spot check real time shows out of order chargers to be an actual thing.

I’d rather use the free providers

Thats a decision you've made. Based on cost not convenance or logical sense for the use case.

However, zap-map can which is on my phone,

Is that an app on your phone ? For the service that doesn't need an app.on your phone to do what Tesla's do ?

Fwiw I'm pro EV . I see the positives of them . But the USP for Tesla is the integration thing. Other manufacturers will catch up with the cars I'm sure but they are trying to buy their way into the charge network to try and compete by buying other people's network companies....... That will result in a piecemeal system rather than a network

I use both Tesla and The others, I have a Shell Recharge card and it's actually very good, among others it has Osprey Network which are reliable and usually there's 2 50kw chargers, then it has Ionity Network which appear to be on the main corridors evenly spread around the country with multiple 350kw chargers in a Tesla stylee. Drac has a point in the catch up respect.

I’d think about buying at 200. Sold all my shares at 200 before they split so this would be psychologically okay for me!

Guess Tesla got caught up with the general rush to equities. You never know with Tesla though.

Having just driven anew model 3, I’d say it’s still crap. The interior is low rent, cheap plastics. The panel gaps on the bonnet and wing are appalling compared to my 17y old 3 series, never mind my I3 and the paint thickness on the door lower edges beggars belief. It drives well, but I wouldn’t want to own one.

Really? The i3 dash is made out of recycled chopsticks and the gear stick is an unintuitive abomination. Then after a few miles it starts burning hydrocarbons. Half baked greenwashed POS.
The p100d model X I piloted for a few minutes was a proper car!

Ionity Network which appear to be on the main corridors evenly spread around the country with multiple 350kw chargers in a Tesla stylee

Unless you have subscription with Ionity they charge 69p per kWh which makes EV travel more expensive than petrol so for that reason I avoid them. Most other rapid charge providers charge around 35p per kWh.

But I did write some of the code for one of the first content management systems used by El Reg a very long time ago.

Ace. That’s a decent claim to fame.

Unless you have subscription with Ionity they charge 69p per kWh which makes EV travel more expensive than petrol so for that reason I avoid them. Most other rapid charge providers charge around 35p per kWh.

Ah right, they're all free for me. On that point, I thought everyone past a certain purchase date had to pay to use the Tesla network these days? again it's free for me (I get free charging included in my car subscription)

Just checked with the Audi Charge Card site, I have access to 10,466 chargers in the U.K.  from that one card before I need to use any of the other networks, more and more are contactless payments anyway.

Then after a few miles it starts burning hydrocarbons.

I'm sorry - what?

Found a video of the Tesla body fitters and QC apprenticeship scheme in action 🤣🤣

On charging, ecotricity should be evicted from their prime locations and replaced by a well maintained high charging rate contactless card provider. They were rubbish 6 years ago when I tried them 3 times and then gave up.

I wouldn’t be buying one because they are actively trying to stop people repairing their own cars, they charge a fortune for anything out of warranty and have been “bricking” cars which have been crash damaged and repaired privately in the USA - removing all fast charge ability remotely - nearly like bricking an iPhone.
They want to make more money repairing them and fixing them and don’t want anyone else touching them as it’ll mean they can be undercut.

On charging, ecotricity should be evicted from their prime locations and replaced by a well maintained high charging rate contactless card provider. They were rubbish 6 years ago when I tried them 3 times and then gave up.

Ecotricity are a joke company Its easier to ask which of their chargers are working rather than which aren't. Unfortunately and incredibly they've just had their franchise for motorway services renewed. Anyway some good news. Instavolt have just installed 8 rapid chargers at Corley Services on the M6 hopefully more to come. Also there is usually an Instavolt chargepoint not far off any motorway you happen to be using.

Just checked with the Audi Charge Card site, I have access to 10,466 chargers in the U.K. from that one card before I need to use any of the other networks, more and more are contactless payments anyway

Well that's absolutely marvelous for you but no bloody use if of the 5-10 or so chargers on the route you happen to be taking that day 20% are down and another 20% are already occupied when you get there and you have no reliable real time info on what their status is. I'm in the same real world of EV you are and I'm telling everyone its not all beer and skittles for EV charging if you are a non-Tesla user undertaking a lot of long journeys. The Tesla supercharger network may not be super extensive but don't forget Tesla drivers can access non-Tesla chargepoints and we can't access any of theirs. If I didn't need a mid range SUV (to carry a large dog) I'd be driving a Tesla Model 3. If I could wait until Q4 2021 to take delivery of a Model Y I would but I cant't so that's why I have the next best thing coming in a couple of weeks an e-Niro.

If I could wait until Q4 2021 to take delivery of a Model Y I would but I cant’t so that’s why I have the next best thing coming in a couple of weeks an e-Niro.

So you should be in the ionity club then, much like Tesla owners are in the tesla supercharger club, Kia are shareholders in Ionity. Recent Tesla buyers pay 28ppkwh at tesla superchargers according to my google skills, you'll maybe pay something similar with ionity. ionity might not yet quite have the coverage that tesla do, but they're not far off. I'd be interested how this pans out for you as I might be in an eniro in the near future (currently in a model3).

So you should be in the ionity club then, much like Tesla owners are in the tesla supercharger club, Kia are shareholders in Ionity.

Well you'd think so wouldn't you however using Kia's universal charge card KiaCharge which allegedly "gives you the freedom to access most UK charging stations – with no monthly subscription fee." charging at Ionity rapid chargers costs wait for it.........69p per kWh which is exactly the same as it costs Joe public! You couldn't make it up!

I wish Tesla would do an estate car rather than slope the boot roofline down like that on the model y. Seems a waste of space. I have kids, bikes, dogs (although between dogs at the mo) etc and am able to fill up a Skoda kodiaq completely for trips to the in-laws, holidays and even regularly for short local day trips (when those were a thing!) with a bike trailer and bikes etc. I don’t need a tesla pick up truck either!

Porsche have just released an Estate version of the Taycan.

rather than slope the boot roofline down like that on the model y.

Squared off backs of cars are not an aerodynamic shape, killing range. Also very few people actually want estates so it's not worth the investment

Electric berlingos are available. Range is terrible

Tesla seem to be destroying their environmental credentials by pushing the proprietary charging network. As seen in this thread it's hugely damaging

Why the hell isn't the government mandating a compatible charging network? Oh wait, I know why.

Tesla seem to be destroying their environmental credentials by pushing the proprietary charging network. As seen in this thread it’s hugely damaging

Tesla have said any other manufacturer can use their network if they want to. Nobody seems to want to take them up on it.