[Closed] At what point......

This thread won't end well, if it even starts..

I don't think anyone's been shying away from pointing out the obvious, have they? Including some high profile Muslims, including Baroness Warsi.

Personally I think its a fairly predictable outcome from a religion and culture that regards females as fundamentally inferior human beings.

*prepares to be flamed*

Nor will the middle be very pleasant.

I think its a fairly predictable outcome from a religion and culture that regards females as fundamentally inferior human beings.

Well, I think it also shows we as a culture could do a damn site more to look after our vulnerable youngsters.

In before th

Isn't this more about the individuals rather than the culture?

Isn't this more about the individuals rather than the culture?

Even if all the individuals, in most of the cases, are of the same culture?

Well, I think it also shows we as a culture could do a damn site more to look after our vulnerable youngsters.

Life is full of horror stories like these and the OP is just yet another example of it.

so to blame the religion is a bit lazy.

Its not really, though, is it? Lets ignore the specific examples of abusing children, and look at Islam more generally. Would you honestly say that its attitude to women is a healthy one? I certainly wouldn't!

I've spent a long time living in predominantly Muslim areas, and the hypocrisy of the younger males is breathtaking. There seems to be an expectation that the women must obey strict Islamic rules, while the blokes are cruising round in Beemers, dressed head to toe in Armani, and getting up to behavior that I'm sure the Prophet (peace be upon him) wouldn't exactly be advocating

Isn't this more about the individuals rather than the culture?

Would you honestly say that its attitude to women is a healthy one?

djglover - Member
Well, I think it also shows we as a culture could do a damn site more to look after our vulnerable youngsters.

This - It's an absolute disgrace that we allow children to get anywhere near this type of abuse.

Agree that it needs to be tackled but it's attitudes like

johndoh - Member

I see what you are trying to say but I don’t agree - this sort of abuse goes on no matter the religion of the perpetrator(s) so to blame the religion is a bit lazy.

that holds proceedings back in that regard...

Elephant in the room doesn't even come close.

Actually, I never mentioned religion, and I very specifically chose not to. I don't think you will find anything of any note in the Koran that actually suggests that treating womankind badly is a feature of that faith in any context whatsoever.

Perhaps not but they don’t advocate keeping sex slaves either - that comes down to individuals.

The whole thing IMHO, having witnessed it first hand, stems from a fundamental lack of respect for women that seems to be inherent in the culture. And seems to be getting worse, if anything. This is merely the worst way in which this manifests itself

You can't actually say this. As to even suggest it immediately gets you compared to Nick Griffin

I agree with binners 100%.

You can't actually say this. As to even suggest it immediately gets you compared to Nick Griffin

Now then binners thats partly my point, I kind of feel thats its a bit Emperors New Clothes to ignore the apparent facts.

Berm Bandit - Member
Actually, I never mentioned religion

No-one has, but the fact that someone (johndoh in this instance) has tried to defend "it" anyway is satisfyingly ironic.

Coyote - Member

I agree with binners 100%.

200%

No-one has

I think you need a bit more information than just a few newspaper stories you are remembering of the top of your head.

Need to be a wee bit more scientific and compare results against other cultures before any conclusions are reached i'd suggest.

I've spent a long time living in predominantly Muslim areas, and the hypocrisy of the younger males is breathtaking. There seems to be an expectation that the women must obey strict Islamic rules, while the blokes are cruising round in Beemers, dressed head to toe in Armani, and getting up to behavior that I'm sure the Prophet (peace be upon him) wouldn't exactly be advocating

Likewise I used to live in High Wycombe which has a strong Muslim community. The inconsistencies between men and women were all too plain to see. My group of friends at that time were largely Muslim and although seemingly balanced in their attitudes to most things I was always startled at their attitude towards women and homosexuals? I often felt that my company prevented them from fully displaying their mindset in this regard.

It's not lazy to cite religion as having some responsibility to bear, or at least the culture of this religion.

It's absolutely shocking - eight men convicted of taking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, giving them drugs and alcohol, and then raping them. In Derby.

Wait, Derby not Rochdale? Yes. The reason you probably haven't heard about it is that seven of the perpetrators were white.

There is a problem with society's attitude to women, and young women in particular. All society, not just the Muslim part of it.

johndoh - Member

No-one has

a fairly predictable outcome from a religion

Your solution to the problem? Burry under the carpet, write it off as "life's a bitch" type thing?

 

Not sure what the problem is anyway...

The red-tops and BBC make all these stories up.

Wait, Derby not Rochdale? Yes. The reason you probably haven't heard about it is that seven of the perpetrators were white.

I'm fairly sure you're the first one to mention skin colour. Don't know what that has to do with anything.

I think the most shocking thing about the cases of this in Rochdale was the fact that the private homes 'caring' for these vulnerable young girls, appeared little more than dumping grounds from all around the country. There seemed to be zero supervision, or any desire to offer a duty of care to these children whatsoever.

It was an open invitation to abusers (of any colour or culture)

It was little mentioned at the time, but each one of these childrens places costs their local authority between £250,000 and £400,000 a year. The homes are mostly owned by private equity firms, and are in places like Rochdale because property is dirt cheap!

Its an utter disgrace. And a shocking reflection on our society. But hey... someones making a lot of money, so its ok

I'm fairly sure you're the first one to mention skin colour. Don't know what that has to do with anything.

Okay, they were also not Muslim.

I don’t want to degenerate into nit picking patriotpro, but Oh Contrare

binners - Member
I don't think anyone's been shying away from pointing out the obvious, have they? Including some high profile Muslims, including Baroness Warsi.
Personally I think its a fairly predictable outcome from a religion

johndoh - Member
I think its a fairly predictable outcome from a religion and culture that regards females as fundamentally inferior human beings.

I see what you are trying to say but I don’t agree - this sort of abuse goes on no matter the religion of the perpetrator(s) so to blame the religion is a bit lazy.

binners - Member
so to blame the religion is a bit lazy.
Its not really, though, is it? Lets ignore the specific examples of abusing children, and look at Islam more

Thus my post pointing out that I did not mention religion.

ts not really, though, is it? Lets ignore the specific examples of abusing children, and look at Islam more generally. Would you honestly say that its attitude to women is a healthy one? I certainly wouldn't!

Your right our attitude to say Kylie, Jordan etc and saying who we would and would not do [ on here] is far healthier attitude towards women
EXCELLENT POINT

What I would say is that the statistics show that as a percentage dfo the population they are no more likely than white males to be abusive. The difference is that white folk tend to do it on their own and Asians in gangs

I missed the thread berating our culture for Jimmy Saville where it appears a lot of folk turned a blind eye to it and we blamed white folk, yorkshire and other cultural factors for this situation. The one blaming rock music or Wales for th lead singer of the Lost prophets etc

Its an example of some asians behaving badly so it gives you a reason to vent your prejudices yet you wont blame white culture or whatever when we have a monster in "ours"

No - I am saying that the religion of the perpetrators shouldn't be used as a weapon.

It’s akin to calling all Muslims terrorists because they Muslim.

There are good and bad in all walks of life, of all religions.

Let's be fair Binners is owning the thread in good fashion.

Your right our attitude to say Kylie, Jordan etc and saying who we would and would not do [ on here] is far healthier attitude towards women

I'd suggest its a lot healthier than regarding women as inherently second class citizens who are expected to be subservient at all times, yes.

I'm sure Kylie and Jordan would be devastated to learn that men find them attractive and sometimes express this in an uncouth and brusque manner. Especially when they look at their bank accounts

Its not really, though, is it? Lets ignore the specific examples of abusing children, and look at Islam more generally. Would you honestly say that its attitude to women is a healthy one? I certainly wouldn't!

Quite right. For example, the Koran recommends that menstrating women are shunned, and that daughters are sold into slavery.

Oh.

I’m out of this shit.

Oh yeah, and I didn't mention colour either, or any other sterotyped group. I merely said that there is a fairly obvious cultural element to this that needs to be explored, acknowledged and understood. What I was refering to is a culture that perceives vulnerability to be an opportunity to be exploited.

Our society doesn't treat women as second-class citizens?

I think Nicole Cooke's speech puts paid to that idea, at least in the world of cycling.

What's all the fuss about? It's not as if women are made to use a different entrance in to the mosque is it? Oh hang on...

binners - Member

Lets ignore the specific examples of abusing children, and look at Islam more generally. Would you honestly say that its attitude to women is a healthy one? I certainly wouldn't!

The current mainstream interpretations at least are not. But they also don't condone drugging 13 year olds and turning them into sex slaves, so there's that.

'Cos Western religions have a fantastic attitude to equality 😉

I was always startled at their attitude towards women and homosexuals?

Northwind - Member

binners - Member

Lets ignore the specific examples of abusing children, and look at Islam more generally. Would you honestly say that its attitude to women is a healthy one? I certainly wouldn't!

The current mainstream interpretations at least are not. But they also don't condone drugging 13 year olds and turning them into sex slaves, so there's that.

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out, not to mention those that are kept quiet for fear of being branded racist.

So there's that.

If you bring people up to believe that the sexes are unequal, and that that inequality puts the majority of power and control in the hands of one sex, then it is far easier for these attitudes and ultimately this behaviour to continue.

Partner works in a school with a large percentage of Muslim pupils.
She's constantly amazed that a significant proportion of the male pupils are still of the opinion that they do not have to maintain the niceties of a traditional pupil-teacher relationship purely because of her sex.
They find it very difficult to accept the authority of a female under any circumstances.
These attitudes are seemingly being reinforced and condoned at home before being brought into school.

Obviously religion plays a part in this, along with many other factors.
All religions have periods of enlightmenment and liberalisation and all go through phases where a more fundamental adherance to core teaching and belief are fashionable and prevalent.

I'm all for freedom of belief, but when religious and cultural practice impinges on the safety and freedom of others, regardless of cultural background or religion, then it's time to say something.

Some religious & cultural practices are just not compatable with our form of western democracy and it is to the detriment of us all if we don't admit that.

I'm a romantic old lefty, but see nothing racist about wanting the opportunities and benefits of a fair and democratic society to be available to everyone, regardless of gender or background.

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out, not to mention those that are kept quiet for fear of being branded racist.

So what about the Derby case? Why didn't that get more media attention?

Man-love thursday is quite a well known phrase now.

If you bring people up to believe that the sexes are different, and that that difference puts the majority of power and control in the hands of one sex, then it is far easier for these attitudes and ultimately this behaviour to continue.

How many top companies have a female CEO? How many government ministers are women? Judges? People in "our" society are being brought up believing that the sexes are different - just look at how toys are marketed, for a start.

patriotpro - Member

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out

A microscopically small minority are doing it, in defiance of their religion. And they're certainly not the only cases of women being taken and abused.

I don't think there's anything needs adding to what Rusty's just put.

Pretty much sums it up really

Ben, I've changed 'different' to 'unequal' in my original post.
And I was referring to the whole of 'our' society in that paragraph.

Of course old fashioned sexism still remains - but I think it's prevalent, accepted and even condoned in certain sections of society for more than others, as I've confirmed later in the post.

Northwind - Member

patriotpro - Member

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out

A microscopically small minority are doing it, in defiance of their religion. And they're certainly not the only cases of women being taken and abused.

I'll agree to disagree on that point.

What experience do you have of Muslims? childhood, adulthood, school, work?

So what explains how, with two very similar cases, one gets next to no coverage whereas the other gets national coverage and lots of discussion about the culture the perpetrators came from?

Women, eh? Tch!

Can't live with 'em...

Pass the beer nuts.

bencooper - Member

So what explains how, with two very similar cases, one gets next to no coverage whereas the other gets national coverage and lots of discussion about the culture the perpetrators came from?

Racism, sadly, and the inherent desire of humanity to pass the blame onto those it sees as different.

However, that doesn't excuse us from ignoring the fact that certain parts of society are currently more sexist and intolerant than others.

And no, I'm not talking exclusively about Islam, fundamentalists of all religions appear to use adherance to 'sacred texts' to perpetuate and enshrine inequality, as the Church of England have admirably demonstrated recently.

Our society doesn't treat women as second-class citizens?

I think Nicole Cooke's speech puts paid to that idea, at least in the world of cycling.

I assume you are joking vis-a-vis her complaints about team manager bullies and not being paid. Yes you are.

Our society, and all its strata and niches, is changing to equalise the status of women. But it's a long haul. People like your teacher wife have the biggest impact.

Our society, and all its strata and niches, is changing to equalise the status of women.

As is much of Islam. Generally in the countries we don't approve of.

People like your teacher wife have the biggest impact.

I'm not married 😉

CBA

patriotpro - Member

I'll agree to disagree on that point.

Ah, so it's[i] not[/i] a tiny minority of british muslims that are abducting and raping women? There's at least 2.7 million of them, what proportion are rapists? 10%

Unless it's the point that it's not only muslims that are rapists that you disagree with, tbh that's no dafter.

So what about the Derby case? Why didn't that get more media attention?

Do you have a link to the Derby case?

This is the only one I can find - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-11799797 ]is this it?[/url]

Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I... hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me, or you're going to die.

Sums me up to a tee 8)

I would like to reply but I would get into trouble.

bencooper - Member

[b]Our society, and all its strata and niches, is changing to equalise the status of women[/b].

As is much of Islam. Generally in the countries we don't approve of.

But many, many countries, of all religions and none are becoming less tolerant toward women. Abortion rights are a big issue here and in the States for example.
Israel is becoming much more fundamentalist too.

religion is poppycock. people have different coloured skin. some people do bad things, some people do good things. which kind of person are you? the end.

Your solution to the problem? Burry under the carpet, write it off as "life's a bitch" type thing?

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/race_and_sex_offences-27153

Savages, they should have their balls cut off.

Fail to see how such a culture can be allowed to continue in the UK without being forced to change. Sadly to even suggest that such a culture is imoral in its treatment of its women labels you as a racist, and so legitamises this I'll treatment.

Fail to see how such a culture can be allowed to continue in the UK without being forced to change.

nwilko - Member
Sadly to even suggest that such a culture is imoral in its treatment of its women labels you as a racist,

No it doesn't.
And as long as you keep repeating it then people will keep believing it.

Standing up for equality is not racism.

Fantastic amount of racist bigotry on this thread. 😕

uselesshippy - Member

Fantastic amount of racist bigotry on this thread.

Where?

Edited - sadly, you're right.
Not a fantastic amount, but some.
Jesus, I despair sometimes.

Indeed rusty its the racists that stifle debate [ not PC gone mad]as decent folk who disagree [ like you and binners] do not want to be lumped in with that shower so they stay quiet.

Al for debate but not or simplistic slagging of one culture or simply suggesting ours is far superior - A german fella thought like this iirc.

Some folk here should read up on anthropology tbh

I'd suggest its a lot healthier than regarding women as inherently second class citizens who are expected to be subservient at all times, yes.

Except its not that just how the Daily Mail spin it so we are scared

Patriarchail society re the religion for sure but subservient at all times [ you have a fair few issues where you get all Daily Mail swivelled eye loon binners] - None of my Muslim mates wife are even close to that description - its obvious who wears the trousers - more so than in what you lot would no doubt call a "western" style relationships

But they're doing it? And these are only the cases that come out, not to mention those that are kept quiet for fear of being branded racist.

So there's that.

Some religious & cultural practices are just not compatable with our form of western democracy and it is to the detriment of us all if we don't admit that.

I'm a romantic old lefty, but see nothing racist about wanting the opportunities and benefits of a fair and democratic society to be available to everyone, regardless of gender or background.

They treat omen differently from us - culturally we always think our way is better - its what they think as well about our ways

I'll agree to disagree on that point

thankfully there are records kept on this for you to google and read and digest and think on - Its ridiculous to think that the abuse of folk is a part of Islamic culture - it like thinking all catholic's molest kids because a small minority of priests did - in fact given the church turning a blind eye you could make a better argument for that actually and the religion condoning it

As i said before asians tend to work in gangs for some reason and white folk alone

Its not more prevalent in one group than the other it just allows us to have an issue with which to let some latent racism run free

FWIW my Muslim mates think one of two things
1. they say these folk come from chavistan and they never attend the mosque - ie they are from villages and hey are a bit thick aand inbred
2. they have been corrupted by western attitudes towards free sex rather than adhering to Islamic values

Junkyard - Member
Dont disagree but i refuse to be drawn in to replacing communists with Muslims as a threat to our very way of life - its a right wing trick of newspeak to keep us all scared and justify their wars and arms spending.

They treat omen differently from us - culturally we always think our way is better - its what they think as well about our ways

Yep, but sometimes, just sometimes, we're right.
People must be free to make their own 'mistakes'.
Whether that's choosing to drink too much, choosing to marry an idiot, choosing to abandon your religion or choosing not to look after your elderley relatives.

Female emancipation was a long and difficult struggle - the freedom for women to determine the course of their own lives has only happened very recently in our country in the modern era.
Many other cultures, including those where many have emigrated to Britain within the last four or five generations, haven't got there yet.

We cannot allow freedom to be sacrificed because of cultural sensitivity.

It would be utterly hypocritical for us to demand freedom and equality for one section of society yet allow it to be compromised to the detriment of others.

FWIW my Muslim mates think one of two things
1. they say these folk come from chavistan and they never attend the mosque - ie they are from villages and hey are a bit thick aand inbred
2. they have been corrupted by western attitudes towards free sex rather than adhering to Islamic values

Well, yes.

1. When I go a footy match and there's a load of racist chanting, I blame it on the thickos too. Even if it's a bit more complicated than that.

2. The main western attitude towards sex, as far as I can tell, is that sex must be consensual - you have the right to say no, just as you have the right to say yes.
Exposure to too much porn and the Hollywood view of female subservience does not justify or excuse rape.
Blaming 'western attitudes towards sex' because you can't keep your dick in your pants is a pathetic cop out.

Wjilst you raise some valid arguments and some good point re

Female emancipation was a long and difficult struggle

I have only one word for you

THATCHER

Its not all been good news 😉

Its interestng i get all the stuff from the press but i just dont see it in my Muslim mates. I doubt many folk who air views actually hang out with Muslims on a regular basis tbh and know from actual experience.
FWIW many of the blokes are frankly embarrassed their wifes wear the Burkha because of what folk think of them and the looks they get when they go out in public.
One mates wife only does it when she is really pissed of with him as punishment

I dont disagree that the Islamic view of women is often at odds with our view = is the church of Englands any better as they cant be bishops - but i dont think it is responsible for raping and grooming women.

Little of the "debate" is based on anything anyone actually experiences rather it is based on snippets from politically motivated media hence we hear loads when its Muslims and far less when it not. Also Saville was a monster but its not cultural etc

Blaming 'western attitudes towards sex' because you can't keep your dick in your pants is a pathetic cop out.

Blaming 'Islamic attitudes towards sex and women' because you can't keep your dick in your pants is a pathetic cop out.

Yeah, yeah JY... I rely on the daily mail for all my info. As opposed to what I see around me on a daily basis.

It's the refusal of many on the left, and subsequently incredibly condescending attitude, to even engage with the issue, that means that nothing changes.

Suggesting that the attitude of many Muslim men towards women is unhealthy, to say the least, is not racism! It's an honest observation! And that a level of equality is what is expected in a democratic society. thats ok if you can speculatively quote the Koran? and not something to be excused on religious grounds! if people want to ignore the elephant in the room, then fine, but please don't dress up the as racial intolerance that nobody should object too! That's just patronising nonsense! And one of the many reasons why the left continues to lose credibility! Which ****ing annoys me! Choose your battles!

Any Muslim families that I've ever been close to have been matriarchal in nature, if not openly in public, then at least behind closed doors..

But it's not convenient for us to think that way, sexism is an ace card to play in the West's systematic demonisation of Islam..

And where would we be if we stopped doing that...?

If the Taliban had their way then women wouldn't be allowed an education among many other limitations they impose on women, if a married Muslim women gets raped for instant she is punished for being unfaithful. Is that being racist point this out. To talk about people religious attitudes is not racist although a presumption that these Muslim men raped this poor 13 year old because they are Muslim could be classed as being racist.

Double post

Yunki, 95% of families I've ever met, regardless of cultural, ethnic or religious makeup have been 'matriarchal in nature'.
A man's place is in the wrong 😀

But it's not convenient for us to think that way, sexism is an ace card to play in the West's systematic demonisation of Islam..

And where would we be if we stopped doing that...?

All cultures are different. Some aspects of other cultures are better than ours, some are worse.

As a care worker, it's pretty obvious that many asian families care for their elderly relatives themselves, rather than rely on outside help.

Would it therefore be racist to say that many non-asian families prefer not to look after their elderly, but prefer to rely on others or abandon them to state care?

anyone who discriminates a person because of their skin colour, gender, race, religion, age, wealth or any thing else is living in the dark ages. where does it stop? don't like people from africa? spain? the french? londoners? the next county? the next town? next door? yourself? jesus, give us all a break