[Closed] Assisted Suicide

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Why not, if it is actully your choice and it stops you suffering then I don't feel it's wrong.

Me too but plenty of people seem against is (in government anyway) and I don't understand why

I think it'll be legal soon. Helps reduce the defecit, increases GDP, and they'll probably levy a small charge too.

only concern would be coercion

BUT that is a massive concern and almost impossible to screen for (or at least time-consuming and expensive)

I can think of lots of people I would assist to end their lives!

I am in favour.
(with all the right controls etc etc)

What scaredypants said.

It is an idea that is worthy of discussion but ultimately is wide open to abuse.

In an ideal world? Yes. In this one, sadly no.

I thought this was another x-factor thread...

Having just watched my Mother deteriorate and succumb to cancer when, by her own admission, she just wanted to go to sleep and not wake up, it can't come quick enough. Of course there would have to be controls put in place, but keeping people alive when they are in pain, week and dying? We treat animals with more respect.

Any civilised society would embrace this, with the appropriate safeguards in place, etc.

Sounds good right now, but hopefully the morning will feel better.

Sorry, druidh, this post is totally crap in the light of what you must have been through. Just not feeling great right now.

Hey - don't apologise. This is something which needs to be discussed. I should also say that there is already quite a vigorous campaign to have this legalised in Scotland - being led by Margo MacDonald (MSP) - a sufferer of Parkinsons.

http://www.margomacdonald.org/
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6996736.ece

Thanks druidh. I have no wish to put my situation into any kind of contrast with yours. We are just going though some shit here - nothing like yours, I think.

I really agree with you - we (in this country) treat animals better than we treat people. We had to have a very dear cat put down in June (there was no other humane thing to do) and I wish we had the same option for people who are suffering.

I would do the same for anyone in my family who was as ill as she was if it were legal - and I wish it were (and I hope they would do the same for me).

We (as a country) should sort this out. It would be the most compassionate thing to do.

As someone who watched my father suffer as his bone cancer took hold & suck the life from him & the husband of a wife with 20 years of secondary progressive MS I perhaps might not be the most impartial person to ask!

But when your wife is at a low point and says "its not worth living like this" what the **** do you say that makes it better?

I'm not for one moment suggesting she ends it all but how the hell do you prepare for that.

My father has dementia, is 89 years old and is now in a wheelchair. He can not remember what was said/what happened 5 minutes previously. He is unable to make conversation.

He falls out of bed regularly and is covered with cuts and bruises. He wears incontinence pads.

A few weeks ago, he did not recognise me. I visit every week.

It is truly heartbreaking.

He does not have a choice of assisted suicide.

Only God can decide.

cinnamon_girl - Member

My father has dementia, is 89 years old and is now in a wheelchair. He can not remember what was said/what happened 5 minutes previously. He is unable to make conversation.

He falls out of bed regularly and is covered with cuts and bruises. He wears incontinence pads.

A few weeks ago, he did not recognise me. I visit every week.

It is truly heartbreaking.

He does not have a choice of assisted suicide.

My wife is 42 is now in a wheelchair, She falls regularly and is covered with cuts and bruises. She wears incontinence pads. Not making light of your fathers plight CG but at least he has had 89 years.

GlitterGary - Member

Only God can decide.

Do me a favour and F off will you

MrOvershoot - that sounds incredibly hard for both of you. Life can be so cruel, especially at a relatively young age. I really don't know what else to say.

I have to say CG it is bloody hard sometimes, but you muddle along. Sometimes with laughter & sometimes with tears, in the end you just have to get on with it as what option do you have?

The biggest problem is that it is so final. Making a mistake with assisted suicide where someone dies through coercion (sp?) only has to happen once for, in my opinion, the whole idea to be the wrong way to go. Just like the death penalty I suppose - no one would want anyone to be executed then find out later that they are innocent. It's safer and easier to say no, we just can't have it as an option.
It would be a very brave government that brought it in in my opinion.
My personal view is that there is always hope in any situation that a miracle might happen, and if it doesn't, then I'd like to hold onto this one life as long as the big guy wants me down here.
MrOvershoot - me and my wife have talked about the possibility of being in your position and it's hard to even talk about it nevermind live through it. I hope that you can continue to be strong for her.

Only God can decide.

My personal view is that there is always hope in any situation that a miracle might happen, and if it doesn't, then I'd like to hold onto this one life as long as the big guy wants me down here.

Once again the religious are the only ones who don't see any ambiguity in this question. Can you please understand that most of us now don't believe in your god and we think that debate is a better option then taking some crap that was written 1000 years ago as our dogma?

We treat animals with more respect

Why not help someone. What are the alternatives? Live in abject agony either mentally or physically and worse still attempt suicide in a gruesome manner (which affects far more people) or botch-up suicide.

An example of this is someone who jumped off Barton Bridge/Manchester and survived 🙁

We find it disgusting to help someone die as we care more about our own feelings and can't imagine what it could be like 'come on pull yourself together luv it will get better'...

Only those really close to the person will have an idea and those are the ones that can be in trouble.

BruceWee - have a bit of respect man, this isn't the thread for a god bashing session.

Sorry but I don't see how comments like 'Only god can decide' are in the least bit respectful to my views and it's regularly trotted out by religious folk. I probably should take the high ground but I get wound up when I'm expected to respect the beliefs of some while they don't have the least bit of respect for mine. This is a question that needs careful thought, respect for the pain of the individuals concerned and their families, but not intolerance caused by someone's dogma.

[i]Of course there would have to be controls put in place, but keeping people alive when they are in pain, week and dying?[/i] [b]We treat animals with more respect.[/b]

+1

...because we don't beleive animals go to heaven and we are worried that if we assist someone to die God wont let us in? humans are also worried about culpability of being part of the process (indirect) to agreeing to let someone die.

Selfish?

they started it [god ]by suggesting only god can decide and therefore I should stay here as it is gods plan to make me suffer whilst waiting for a miracle. I think it is reasonable to respond to that ludicrous suggestion.
The only other argument aginst is this slippery slope gateway thing such as

only concern would be coercion

A typical heathen response, telling someone to F off because of their views.

When I am in heaven I'll take pity on you.

Having just watched my Mother deteriorate and succumb to cancer when, by her own admission, she just wanted to go to sleep and not wake up, it can't come quick enough. Of course there would have to be controls put in place, but keeping people alive when they are in pain, week and dying? We treat animals with more respect.

Watched my Mother-in-law deteriorate and succumb to cancer. She fought bravely beating it twice (or so we thought) and then succumbing over a ten year period.

At then end medical opinion (with a high dgree of confidence) was that she had less than a week left and that week would be filled with nothing other than suffering and pain beyond chemical relief. In a very controlled way we each went upstairs to see her, say our goodbye, came back down and then her husband and the doctor went upstairs and she was given a lethal dose (of morphine, I guess)

Of course there were controls in place because it was in the Netherlands.

As the 'Brit' in the family I had some misgivings when euthanasia was first discussed but now I have [u]absolutely no doubt[/u] that it was the right thing to do.

For those worried about coercion, look to Holland, Sweden, Norway etc. I don't believe there is evidence of abuse of the law there. It is obvioulsy always possible but look at the greater good.

Glitter Did you not think about forgiving those who trespass against you- I think that is whatgod prefers. Being an example to others is recomended- of which your log on name is a great example...surely a troll

I think its a disgrace that we force people to travel to clinics in other countries to end lives that are already unbearable.
Why cant you be visited in your own home, by a trained professional who will help you end your life with dignity, in a comfortable environment, comforted by your loved ones.
I think the law will change to allow this, and I will be happy to be that professional.
My only concern is that with increased life expectancy, there will be an expectation develop that those who havent managed to provide for themselves in old age financially would 'choose' to end their lives so as to avoid burdening the rest of us. Sounds horrible I know, but I see similar attitudes on an all too frequent basis.

Good post Higgo. Certainly puts a well balanced argument and paints a clear picture of how well it could work.

I've probably seen too much selfishness from so-called "loved ones", when people are either dying or recently departed, to believe that given the chance to pull the plug for their own benefit, they wouldn't hesitate.

Oh and please can the pro and anti-God lot f-off and have your little bun fight elsewhere. This isn't really the place.

There must always be a difficult balance though.

On the contrary Coyote, God is everywhere.

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He
was not there; I went to the Temple of the
Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not
find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys
but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I
able to find Him. I went to the Ka'bah in Mecca,
but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but
He was beyond their understanding.
I then looked into my heart and it was there
where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was
nowhere else to be found.

vomits at Hora post
Shame they are so pro life as it does lead to suffering for their beliefs. Sadly it is linked to this as non believers only concern is with abuse of assisted deaths not the principle per se. Believers are just opposed as we are meddling with the will of god who wants us to suffer in the last few dyas/weeks of life for some reason.
I will leave thread as it is a serious one [ andther eis enough religious squabbling on here] but in order to get a law on this the people we most need to convince /ignore will be religious people.

who you planning to kill Nacho?

Both of my parents died of cancer my mothers illness was long and protracted but she told us it was fairly painless up until she finally died.
My fathers ilness was short and brutal and on request he was eventually given a hefty dose of morphine and died 20 minutes later, I'd say in certain hospitals euthanasia is already available if asked for in the right way. I was grateful it was as he was in a lot of pain and it seemed the right thing to do, he had no hope of recovery. I don't feel guilty and I'd expect the same from my family if I was in the same or a similar boat.

If I knew I was terminal and wanted to spare myself and my family the suffering of a long illness I would take measures to do so, illegal or not. I take comfort in the fact that being dead is like before you were born and not really worth worrying about.

I'm not going to make a religious commment as I'm past arguing with fools.

druidh - Member

Having just watched my Mother deteriorate and succumb to cancer when, by her own admission, she just wanted to go to sleep and not wake up, it can't come quick enough. Of course there would have to be controls put in place, but keeping people alive when they are in pain, week and dying? We treat animals with more respect.

Says it all really.

Working as a nurse with old people I have seen this sort of situation many times and seen it dealt with by professionals in different ways. Its not a solid line to cross. At what point does giving enormous doses of painkillers become euthanasia? What about withdrawing treatment? Withdrawing feeding?

At the moment what happens with you depends to too great an extent on the views of the professionals involved. I have seen incidents where the chosen course of action ranges from from taking measures to relieve suffering with almost complete disregard for the life shortening potential to people wanting to do CPR on people with advanced dementia and secondary illness.

For myself I would like to see some better written guidance for staff and I would be quite happy with some form of euthanasia. Not all professionals would agree with me.

GlitterGary - Member
A typical heathen response, telling someone to F off because of their views.

When I am in heaven I'll take pity on you.

You see I don't believe in any god or gods but I do try to help those around me as much as I can, often doing myself out of things to help other people but don't feel the need to do it under the banner of religion, is that Humanist?

Anyway I'm sure you’re probably a Troll so I've just wasted my time typing this.

My wife is the Matron, I think they're called Band 7 or 8 these days at the UK's largest adoloescent and adult hospice. Loads of Oncology qualifications and stuff, she seems to surround herself in misery (except for me and the youngster) but keeps smiling. I worry about her.
Anyway, I am aware she has given enough pain relief etc. that she knows will effectively end a persons' life in short time where as if they didn't have the drugs, they could last a few days or longer. Euthanasia by any other name but all perfectly legal.
She sees some stuff that would break a stone heart and absolutely believes in the right to die, assisted suicide stuff.
In fact, last weekends rant was all about a junior doctor on rotation who despite very definite instructions not to give certain meds. that would prolong a persons life but in great distress (the poor person was already showing signs of terminal agitation - wholly unpleasant) so that they could 'go' with their family close by and in relative peace all be it drugged up to high heaven and completely unaware, only gave the drugs asked not to and did some resusc. stuff.
the family are now even more traumatised and they all have a big worse mess to deal with.
I think she mentioned he (doctor) is a born again christian.
I think he's going to get a fail mark in this placement.
It's our lives, how dare anybody else choose when it ends if we still have the ability and capacity to choose and the helper along is willing.

My father died of cancer 20 years ago, the family doctor (he chose to come home so we could nurse him) upped his morphine quite considerably, some might say exponentially, towards the end, I think it was common practice back then. Better all around I reckon.

My fathers doctor said quite clearly that although he was not in much pain that day, (mostly because he was in and out of consciousness) he would be willing to give him some Morphine to "help" him and that was all he said, the doctor felt he had two days at best and all his lucid moments would be very painful. It was left to me to decide and I did.

All the people who argue against it have to be really cruel bastards.

Don't smoke by the way, lung cancer is a shitty way to go.

I think the "high morphine dose" is done rather more often than anyone would like to admit. This is why I want it codified and the legal grey areas removed. Or else we get the situation as Monksie describes with some professionals with very strong beliefs and we get too many badly handled deaths.

My own belief is in active euthanasia. However my views are at one edge of what is acceptable. I must always keep my mind focussed on the patient - and its their expressed view or the best guess as to their view that is paramount.

I have come into conflict on this. A family who wanted everything possible done for their dad even tho to me he was clearly dying. He dide in A&E surrounded by strangers with needles stuck in him instead of in the nursing home surrounded by people he knew.

However it is right that its not my views that are paramount. Its right it is the persons and their families views.

To me a painfree dignified death surrounded by your loved ones is the best outcome where death is inevitable and I think its right that we manage terminal illness to provide that as the outcome.

Godbothers. You can act as you want and I will follow your wishes for you - but don't dare tell me what should happen with others.

Yes, as Monksie, Hels and others' experience shows we quite clearly have 'under the carpet' euthanasia in this country. My view is that it wuold be better for all concerned to bring it out into the open.

a junior doctor on rotation who despite very definite instructions not to give certain meds. that would prolong a persons life but in great distress ... gave the drugs asked not to and did some resusc.

I think ... he (doctor) is a born again christian.

In theory I am of the view that we should not discriminate against people due to religious beliefs. However, if their religion leads to that kind of poor decision making, we should think again. Although in this case you've got to hope that it was the inexperience of a junior doctor. I know of practitioners who will not do things on religious grounds but will step aside and let someone else do it. Hypocritical? Maybe.

Personally I don't plan on letting myself get to the stage where I have to rely on others to end my life. I had a lot of respect for Hunter S. Thompson's view where if he couldn't end his own life at any moment then he didn't want to carry on living. If this offends anyone then I'm sorry but it is only my personnel feelings about my own life.

What does scare me is being paralysed. I mountain bike, play rugby, and go rock climbing so my chances of this happening are probably a bit higher than most. The idea of having no control over my own decisions scares me more than anything. I believe that Margo MacDonald has already had to remove disabled people from the list of people eligible for assisted suicide. So the new law, if it comes into force, would be useless for me and I'd be forced to beg friends and relatives to take me to Switzerland and I would be completely at their mercy. This is absolutely my greatest fear.

Being disabled is a really knotty one, Stephen Hawkins, Superman* etc all did some cool stuff whilst pretty much immobile. I feel that it's up to the individual to decide in that case as they are still lucid and able.

*Christopher Reeve, I had to google that

don't plan on letting myself get to the stage where I have to rely on others to end my life

Most people don't, but many people who do find themselves in such an unfortunate predicament report they have a higher standard of life than anticipated and many that felt as strongly as you intimated change their minds when faced with this for real.

Also, do you have a spouse or dependent children that would rely on a life assurance payout, enhanced pension or death in service payment from your work to help them? You may forfeit these is you go down the Switzerland route.

I agree there should be a choice. (edit) not in any way criticising your views just adding comments to emphase that it's a difficult choice and a potential political minefield.