Asking for (or demanding) an apology

Is it just me or is there something strange about asking for an apology?

Yes.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/lewis-brakes-on-the-intense-race-team-bikes/

I suppose peak level 'asking for an apology' would be that Lewis brakes thread! EDIT: Too late!

Demanding an apology from strangers on the interweb because they criticised some knock off Chinese brakes.....right you are!

But yeah that nurse story sounds really ****ing weird!

As part of the disciplinary process she was required to write a sincere letter of apology.  Her first effort was rejected by her manager as not being sincere enough.  She mentioned this to my friend who, while they were still chatting, sent her a block of tex

Thats nothing more than bullying.

For me an apology cannot really be solicited. It is implicit that an apology is given without being asked for.

The trouble is that we're in such a culture where people are scared stiff of issuing an apology because they fear it confers proof of culpability - which could then be used against them further down the line. It's just the slightly ****y society we find ourselves in.

I apologise all the time at work, it’s very effective at resolving complaints.

WRT being made to rewrite an apology, some people aren’t aware of what makes a good one and so it can come off as passive aggressive.

I apologise all the time at work, it’s very effective at resolving complaints.

I think most people apologise quite often.  It's asking for an apology I'm talking about.

For me an apology cannot really be solicited. It is implicit that an apology is given without being asked for.

Absolutely this. If someone has to point out the mistake/error to get an apology, then there is no sincerity behind the apology.

Absolutely this. If someone has to point out the mistake/error to get an apology, then there is no sincerity behind the apology.

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I saw the article about the skeet shooter, and I think how she put it is maybe softer than saying she's asking for an apology - I read it as she thinks there should be one, along with an acknowledgement that she has literally been robbed of a gold medal. If that was me, I don't think I'd have put it in such moderate terms!

"However, I do believe some accountability needs to be taken to acknowledge and an apology for the incorrect decision ultimately costing me an opportunity of winning an Olympic gold medal."

I apologise all the time at work, it’s very effective at resolving complaints.

The most powerful 'apology' type work scenario Ive been involved in was where a colleague was made to look stupid in a meeting by a bully.

Fair play to the person who was bullied. She asked to speak with the bully, and asked me to go along. She didnt even ask for an apology. She just let the bully know how it made her feel. The bully went away very sheepish and actually changed their behaviour after.

I am sure that if the lady had asked for an apology the bully would still be behaving in the same way

I apologise for potentially not understanding stuff in audits.
It tends to unbalance auditees and they tend to open up and offer information far more.
Of course I am not sorry in the slightest

I apologise for potentially not understanding stuff in audits.
It tends to unbalance auditees and they tend to open up and offer information far more.
Of course I am not sorry in the slightest

Next time I'm audited I'm going to demand an apology from the auditor for potentially not understanding stuff in audits.

It should unbalance the auditor and allow me to conceal far more information.

Of course, I don't require an apology in the slightest.

I just don't see how this can only be an English thing and the isninuation has upset me a little.

I demand an apology.

Ads678, Gods own Country, England.

I think it's OK to ask that someone (who hasn't already) to acknowledge the hurt or harm they've done, which is how I translate the 'asking for an apology' question. It, at the very least, makes them reflect on it they haven't done so already

The nursing one; I'd expect a competent nurse to at the very least have their shit together enough to sort out their registration or certification in plenty of time. That's pretty basic, and I think if an apology hadn't been forth coming, I'd have asked for one. Not least because of the danger it places their patients in*

*I'm not sorry, ending a sentence like this is perfectly acceptable. It's only the likes of half-wits like John (two sides) Dryden that started the whole nonsense, likening English grammar to Latin - which it isn't.

I demand an apology.

I won't apologise but perhaps we can negotiate a mutual statement of regret.

@Brucewee

You can try that one, tends to piss us off and dig more though. Are you so confident in your systems that you want that...... most don't

I read it as she thinks there should be one, along with an acknowledgement that she has literally been robbed of a gold medal. If that was me, I don’t think I’d have put it in such moderate terms!

This.  An acknowledgement of the error is required... I would have thought that would include an apology.

The way i read this it's basically getting an apology from the organisation, it's more to do with an error being made and the apology would be accepting liability, it's not like she wants a heartfelt apology from an individual.

I won’t apologise but perhaps we can negotiate a mutual statement of regret.

Aye, that'll do.

Aye, that’ll do.

OK, let's call our lawyers and instruct them to begin work.

She was robbed of the OPPORTUNITY for a gold medal (it was a shoot off and she was eliminated, she might still have lost on the following shots). She’s looking for some recognition of culpability from the Olympic body, and I have some sympathy with that.

I apologise for potentially not understanding stuff in audits.

It tends to unbalance auditees and they tend to open up and offer information far more.

Of course I am not sorry in the slightest

The Colombo approach? Seen it a hundred times now. The interaction between auditor and audited at an individual level almost never fails to have an amusing element in my experience.

Auditors are fun and, generally speaking, the ones who are any good at it get promoted away from the actual work and into management. So the cycle continues...

Oh, and no, I am not sorry!

That Lewis brakes guy - not ventured into those threads - what an absolute stroker! The missing emojis and likes are felt hard on that thread.

The nursing apology rejected letter; jeez - tool level of bellendery. The funny thing is that nursing is a complete sellers market and they could so easily take their skills elsewhere. Of course that works both ways - the person they were being asked to write an apology to might be a desperation appointment in a staffing shortage and would be a long way from even managing the tea and coffee cupboard in other circumstances.

As to the OP - I can sort of see what she's after. An admission that they got it wrong and robbed her of an opportunity of gold. Not as good as getting the gold, but it's something you could hang your hat on in years to come. That will probably have been her competitive lifetime highlight - not quite the same as having to apologise for nausing up a bit of paperwork. Breaking, and that Aussie lady's performance in particular has robbed me of the opportunity of pointing out shooting is a crap sport and  participants being refereed to as athletes laughable. But the bar has now been set so low it is no longer relevant.

She was robbed of the OPPORTUNITY for a gold medal (it was a shoot off and she was eliminated, she might still have lost on the following shots). She’s looking for some recognition of culpability from the Olympic body, and I have some sympathy with that.

I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

It's the apology part I find strange.  Even if what you mean is an acknowledgement, asking for it in the form of an apology seems really alien which is why I'm wondering if it's a cultural thing.

Colombo approach, love that.
I tend to use it very sparingly and it should be a sign that we have def found something and we are just confirming there is a gap.
I love auditing and am refusing to move back into management, much more fun this way round

Is it that different from demanding satisfaction (ooer missus) and all that? In the old duelling days, you'd demand satisfaction. Now you can demand an apology (and get told where to shove it)

Is it that different from demanding satisfaction (ooer missus) and all that?

I honestly think you might be onto something there.

Not saying it never happens in Scotland (or anywhere else for that matter) but I’ve never seen anyone but English people doing it.

A quick google of "demand an apology scotland"  would tend to indicate confirmation bias. That your rugby example has no obvious link to England also seems odd.

In the shooters case it is effectively an admission of failings which then leads onto how can they address it in future with the suggestion being for the refs to use slow mo video footage to review.

OP would you vastly differentiate between someone who is 'demanding an apology' or 'asking for an apology', or even 'wanting an apology'?

The use of the word demanding to me could imply someone with a demanding, needy aggressive personality which is not an attractive trait.

I would be interested to know if you think only English people have demanding, needy aggressive personalities? 🙂

I think in many situations there are people who would like to receive an apology from someone they feel has aggrieved them. I often hear people say in criminal or negligence cases that all they really want is an apology. In these cases I would think that an apology to them would go some way to show an admission of guilt and possibly a show of remorse. I would say that publicly stating this is indirectly asking for an apology (though possibly not demanding it). Also saying 'an apology would have been nice' is a roundabout way of asking for one.

A quick google of “demand an apology scotland”  would tend to indicate confirmation bias.

My google skills show mostly politicians demanding apologies rather than individuals.  In the case of politics I think 'apology' and 'demand apology' means something very different to an individual having an apology demanded of them.

I kind of get that the shooter is more asking for acknowledgment.  Like I said though, if I was in the same situation it would not occur to me to ask for that acknowledgement in the form of an apology.  I might expect and apology but I wouldn't ask for it.

That your rugby example has no obvious link to England also seems odd.

Mark Dodson and Alan Gilpin are both English.  The entire thing was a pissing contest between these two and the apology ended up being the main bone of contention.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-30956933.html

I think in the public eye the demanding an apology is simply trying to make someone publicly admit to the person being wrong and "you" are right. This is not just English, its pretty common in world politics.

In terms of the Olympic athlete requesting an apology, she has dedicated her time and effort to be one of the best in the world, she sucessfully hit her target, the judges failed to see it and eliminated her. Why should she not have an apology? She is highlighting that there is room for improvement, that the current system is proven to be flawed and she had an opportunity taken from her, something she had worked incredibly hard at and may not get another chance to achieve. Seems fair to me.

Why should she not have an apology?

Don't think anyone is saying she shouldn't have one

Again, it's asking for an apology that wouldn't occur to me and I find it strange.  And that along with other times people have asked for or demanded apologies is what I find strange.

Anyway, to many on here this appears to be perfectly reasonable behaviour so I guess the attitude is at least fairly well accepted among the STW demographic so that tells us something at least.

I think the "demand an apology" is just media shorthand isn't it? Like mentioning the age of some-one - "Man, 34 finds giving an apology difficult" or that all women in swimwear are 'flaunting'

I don't think I've met someone IRL that's ever said "I demand an apology" I think I'd struggle to take them seriously

I guess the attitude is at least fairly well accepted among the STW demographic

Or just the English part of it?

I think what nickc says is fair, the use of the word demand is usually just media hyperbole.

In the below linked BBC article 'demand' is used in the title, but reading the article supposedly the interviewee only said "hopefully get an apology" which is someway from demanding one IMO.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-66617352.amp

I don’t think I’ve met someone IRL that’s ever said “I demand an apology” I think I’d struggle to take them seriously

I think if your work requires a written apology as part of the disciplinary process that's a demand, even if it's not stated as such.

Especially if they then turn around and say, 'Nope, not good enough' after your first attempt.  It's not really a request then, is it?

In the below linked BBC article ‘demand’ is used in the title, but reading the article supposedly the interviewee only said “hopefully get an apology” which is someway from demanding one IMO.

Indeed journalist clickbait title hyperbole is pretty much all it is.

Thols2 - this is so 2023 news

If you don't get a spontaneous apology it's pointless asking for one because it'll be anything but sincere and thus worthless.

A quick search reveals it's definitely not a "English thing"

These people are as far from English as you can be with their badly acted silliness -

A while back a floor manager (or whatever he called himself) from a large tech company, demanded a written apology from myself.

We had inadvertently broken a security rule  due to the facilities guys not following procedure.

I simply spoke to the chap the way he spoke to my younger colleague.

It got us thrown off site, never mind.

I didn’t write an apology, we’ve repeatedly been asked to do more work there and refused.

Its absolutely not an english thing. Watch Curb Your Enthusiasm. A lot of the jokes are based on an apology being demanded (often by Jeff's wife Suzie) but Larry's refusal to give one.

If you have to ask for an apology, any apology received as a result is meaningless.

The person whom the apology is being demanded from is clearly not sorry - otherwise they would have offered it freely. The would be recipient of the apology surely must know this so really, what is the point.

I think the point of asking for (and receiving) an apology is to hammer home the point that you were right and get one over on the apologiser. Its nowt to do with genuine contrition.

In context, it's just asking for an admission of fault/error. Not particularly weird though not necessarily the wording I'd have used.

The would be recipient of the apology surely must know this so really, what is the point.

I think there are three reasons for doing it:

1. You're trying to get someone to admit they were at fault and that they hurt you. Most people probably feel this should be accompanied by an apology and some people ask for (or demand) an apology as part of the admission.  I'm not sure what an apology adds to proceedings but there you go.

2. You're trying to assert your dominance.  You are trying to force them to make a demonstration of contrition to show that they are beneath you.

3. Demanding an apology from your opponents is just what you do in politics.  No one actually expects anyone to apologise, let alone mean it.

It's a sad, sad situation, and it's getting more and more absurd.

Is it just me or is there something strange about asking for an apology?

In general terms, I guess for some people it could form part of some sort of closure process / coming to terms with something they feel is grossly unfair, but I suspect it's often a sort of shorthand for asking for an acknowledgement that an error took place.

In a different era it would probably be a precursor to challenging someone to a duel... 'Apologise, or else!!!'

Perhaps we need the reintroduction of duelling to sort out procedural grievances, mistakes, differences of opinions etc. If, for example, you felt that On One - to use one example, plucked 'at random' from the digital air - should replace your cracked titanium frame, you could simply decide the matter using flintlock pistols or épées, preferably at dawn, if your mutual schedules allowed.

I think there are three reasons for doing it:

1. You’re trying to get someone to admit they were at fault and that they hurt you. Most people probably feel this should be accompanied by an apology and some people ask for (or demand) an apology as part of the admission.  I’m not sure what an apology adds to proceedings but there you go.

2. You’re trying to assert your dominance.  You are trying to force them to make a demonstration of contrition to show that they are beneath you.

3. Demanding an apology from your opponents is just what you do in politics.  No one actually expects anyone to apologise, let alone mean it.

Or, more compassionately, as I posted above, it could be something that someone could use to help themselves get closure. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons too.  The 'dominance' thing sounds mildly insane btw.

The ‘dominance’ thing sounds mildly insane btw.

In terms of the nurse having to write a letter (and then rejecting the first letter as not being sorry/sincere enough), I'm not sure what reason there could be other than to show some sort of dominance.

Or, like you said, the person demanding it is insane.

I think the Dodson Gilpin battle also falls into this category of 'dominance'.  Both strike me as the type who would find this kind of thing important.

Or, more compassionately, as I posted above, it could be something that someone could use to help themselves get closure.

I think we're getting onto a sort of different level when we are talking about people who have lost loved ones.  Yes, in that case it is probably related to closure and finally being able to move on.

This isn't really the type of example I was thinking about when I wrote the first post.

I’m not sure what reason there could be other than to show some sort of dominance.

Given we don't any of the circumstances and we're hearing 3rd hand after you heard it 2nd hand, the first letter could just say "Ner ner you smell, and I'm not sorry" or may have done the well worn non apology dance "I'm sorry that you felt bad" we just don't know, so to conclude that it can only be a display of dominance is a stretch.

But in your world being told to write an apology letter is a perfectly normal thing for management to do?

If I was expecting an apology letter and I got whiff that it was written by ChatGPT I wouldn't be pleased. Even less so if it was a rewrite of a previously rejected letter.

Do you ask your employees to write you apology letters often?

But in your world being told to write an apology letter is a perfectly normal thing for management to do?

No. I've never experienced it or seen it. But nursing is a profession, and there's an expected level of competence and well, professionalism. Depending on what the certificate was for, it could be that a nurse was acting illegally, which in turn could open the practice to legal challenges from patients which the practice/trust would be un-indemnified for.

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs and their business. In those circumstances a written apology seems like the very least trouble one should go to

also, you could argue that if someone can't acknowledge what it is they've done wrong, as in say what it was they did or didn't do and say why it was wrong, then there's a chance they'll do it again.

(I couldn't imagine asking for a work-related apology, but a "what happened there, what could we have done differently" conversation could amount to something similar I guess. What you don't want is righteousness or dug in defensiveness.)

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs and their business. In those circumstances a written apology seems like the very least trouble one should go to

this is interesting. Did the nurse loose her certification, or was she never certified? If it was an error on the nurses part, then the nurse would probably want to apologise. If the practice manager had employed uncertified staff the the manager should be apologising.

I love auditing

Now that is something you should apologise for.

Haha,  bite me.

I am a nice auditor, we help improve processes rather than hang them up by their ankles and beat them

we help improve processes rather than hang them up by their ankles and beat them

Ahh so they successfully managed to hide the real dirt from you.

It’s a sad, sad situation, and it’s getting more and more absurd.

I'd like that comment, it deserves credit! But the like button is broken, will we get an apology for that?

It was once strongly suggested to me, by my manager, that I write an email of apology to a bunch of board members, as I'd previously emailed them calling a certain process 'a complete shit show' and 'unfit for purpose' and other words to that effect.

I duly complied as life is too short, and it smoothed things over whilst I searched for a new job and resigned... but you can imagine how sincere it was.

It's definitely a power play designed to subjugate a person in some scenarios... me in this case.

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs and their business. In those circumstances a written apology seems like the very least trouble one should go to

If it's that important then you have to wonder why there isn't a system to monitor everyone's certifications.

I used to work offshore which requires an endless stream of certifications to get anywhere near a rig. My work knew exactly when everything ran out and gave me no chance to forget to renew anything.

Seems like putting a robust process in place to monitor things would be a better than making people 'sincerely' apologise when they cock up.

People are always going to cock up. A good business accounts for that.

I have seen examples where an uncertificated dental nurse essentially caused a practice to close and folks to loose their jobs

As above... That's a cataclysmic failure of management and oversight. Yes the nurse was in the wrong, but that wrongness is far overshadowed by the fact there's no processes in place to allow someone at such a 'low level' to cause so much damage.

Seems like a classic case of 'shit rolls downhill and find a scapegoat'.

Ahh so they successfully managed to hide the real dirt from you.

Rarely,  but they do try hard sometimes.  Bless them.

We are internal so actually help improve the place,  when we go external they don't seem to be quite so positive

I suggested that someone re-write an apology letter last week. It's a fairly common thing to have to do in healthcare.

What purpose do these apology letters serve?

For someone who works in a regular job the idea of requiring people to apologise for cock ups seems ridiculous.

Either you have hired someone who isn't able to do the job or there has been a failure in the process that was supposed to catch the cock up.

Either way, if anyone is writing apology letters it should be management.

you have to wonder why there isn’t a system to monitor everyone’s certifications.

It's not always a case of simple expiry date so having one system to monitor various requirements across various professional standards across various professional bodies. It might just be best served by a self-certification system.

For example, asking each person at a regular interval whether they are certified or not. If they answer incorrectly they have failed to take responsibility, either through negligently answering 'Yes' but not knowing whether they were or not, or by lying and saying 'Yes' knowing that they are not.

For a professional that is not a big step to get right.

Getting it wrong is worthy of some sanction. Perhaps if nurses were not in such high demand, there might have been an alternative sanction e.g. dismissal or reporting to the professional body and being struck off?

As above, such is the shortage of nurses, dismissal might not be ideal for anyone, but acknowledging the mistake and apologising could be a much better alternative.

Who knows?

But with some (international) imagination I can see why asking for an apology in some circumstances is not a totally one-sided exercise.

What purpose do these apology letters serve?

They resolve complaints.

Either you have hired someone who isn’t able to do the job or there has been a failure in the process that was supposed to catch the cock up.

Or in healthcare, we are human beings who work in an incredibly complex and demanding working environment where mistakes are inevitable.

Either way, if anyone is writing apology letters it should be management.

If I'm a registered professional and the complaint has been made about me, then I have a duty to respond directly.

Who is making these complaints?

As you said, mistakes are inevitable. Why are people being treated as if making mistakes is some sort of character deficiency that requires redress in the form of an apology?

Who is making these complaints?

Patients.

As you said, mistakes are inevitable. Why are people being treated as if making mistakes is some sort of character deficiency that requires redress in the form of an apology?

Because, generally that's what people want when they make a complaint.

Patients.

That's good, I thought you meant it was a way of resolving disputes between colleagues.

I can definitely see why it's good to be able to sincerely apologise for potentially life changing mistakes made when treating a patient.

However, applying that same logic to make a staff member apologise to their boss for an administrative oversight is not really in anyone's interest. I mean, in most jobs the responsibility for ensuring all staff have all requirements in place is a big part of what managers are there for.

I spent a bit of time there reading about the blame and shame culture in the NHS. It was eye opening.

Thats the thing - when is an apology really an apology?

Saying sorry is a great way to shut someone up who has a valid grievance. You say sorry and they basically have to accept it or look the bad guy. Most people accept this and reluctantly move on - the person who says sorry may not be the slightest bit sorry.

"I'm sorry you feel that way" on the other hand is pretty much a taunt

Breaking, and that Aussie lady’s performance in particular has robbed me of the opportunity of pointing out shooting is a crap sport and  participants being refereed to as athletes laughable.

Please explain why you think it’s a crap sport? There are lots of shooting events in both the regular Olympics, and the Winter Olympics has shooting as part of the biathlon. Are they crap sports? At least the scoring is (usually) objective, ie it’s obvious when the athletes have hit targets, rather than subjective, ie did the skateboarder execute an olly that tiny bit better than anyone else? In the case of the skeet shooting, it’s classed as a hit when the target is visibly struck, ie when powder or a fragment is knocked off the skeet, which she clearly did - why the judges didn’t appear to have, or use, video playback seems extraordinarily stupid in such a sport when it’s been available for years in others.

In archery, for example, if the edge of an arrow is touching the black line dividing two colours, ie between higher and lower scores, it’s called as scoring the higher number, but at 70m it’s impossible to tell, even close-up cameras can be fooled by shadows cast by other arrows in the target, so target judges look closely using a handheld magnifying glass, and because an arrow can hit the target at a slight angle, pushing the paper in, it can sometimes take a minute or two before a score is given, so why don’t the skeet judges take that extra time to properly check using the technology that’s already available. The athlete deserves a proper apology, footage clearly shows she got a hit under the event rules, the judges, for whatever reason say she didn’t, and obviously are just not prepared to go back and admit they made an obvious mistake and revise the given results.

Oh, and painting was once an Olympic event.

Oh, and painting was once an Olympic event.

Yes, an event, not a sport. I consider shooting to be a sport, but not everything in the Olympics has to be a sport. Sorry if that upsets anyone.

The athlete deserves a proper apology, footage clearly shows she got a hit under the event rules, the judges, for whatever reason say she didn’t, and obviously are just not prepared to go back and admit they made an obvious mistake and revise the given results.

I don't think there is anything unusual about judges or referees making a bad or wrong call.  You'd probably be hard pushed to find any sporting event that didn't have at least one dodgy call each match.

In terms of the rulemakers, every change made to the rules is a a compromise.  You have to assume that if they decide they aren't going to use video then there is some kind of thinking behind it.

I think there is generally an acceptance that judges and officials are not trying to ruin a competition.  Sure, they might make mistakes but the assumption is they are doing their best.  Whether there best is good enough is another question.

Complaining about officials, rules, and procedures is nothing new.  In fact it's pretty much part of sport.

What is unusual is to ask for an apology.  Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has asked the officials for an apology after an incorrect decision.  Incorrect decisions are just part of sport.  If you accept that fact then what exactly is she asking them to apologise for?