Firstly I should say, this is absolutely not relating to me...
About 8 months ago a mate got lifted by the police. According to him he was with a girl who was pretty hammered and the police showed up. They tried to pick her up and he got a bit mouthy (he can get beligerent when drunk no doubt about it)
Anyway he got arrested for 'resisting arrest' something he absolutely denies, was sent to the cells till 4 am then heard nothing more about it. was told at the time he didn't need a lawyer.
Anyway, yesterday he gets a letter saying hes having to go to court as he has been charged with assaulting an office. Apparently he pushed him or something. Hes absolutely addament he didn't and i beleive him, i'm sure he would have mentioned it by now if he had. Also its not in his nature, despite being a mouth so and so at times.
There are no cctv cameras in the area it happened, and no witnesses other than the girl who has been discreddited in the report as apparently having been 'frothing at the mouth'. The girl actually got drug tested at the time and was completely clean so I doubt this is true.
What are his options, given its his word vs two coppers 8 months after the event.
Will there be a jury, or will the judge just side with the police and he better start preparing for a 6 month stint in saughton
ta
I'd say discussing an alleged offence on the internet before a trial probaby won't help your friend. He needs professional legal advice.
It'll be a Magistrates Court hearing initially - most unlikely he will go to Crown, so no jury.
Get him to a good criminal defence firm. Being persuaded not to have a solicitor in Custody is a breach of PACE. A solicitor will almost certainly find a chink in a case like this and be able to negotiate the charge down to (most likely) resist / obstruct a constable, which is a very minor offence.
If he is previously of good character he is most unlikely to go to prison for this.
What he said.
Also, if you get arrested you should speak to a solicitor regardless.
What is Pace?
Just asking for advice kcr, I doubt the magistrate will read this.
You are right about the lawyer, hes seeing one on monday
Get a good solicitor.
Always ask for a duty solicitor if arrested and there is NEVER a quiet chat down at the station. If they want to talk to you about something always have representation.
+1 Solicitor and as above. Hopefully would argue what a waste of money and time it would be bringing it to court also. Utterly pointless unless the cop claims to have suffered an injury. Given being told no solicitor then surely whole thing gets thrown out anyway.
Assault PC is summary only so magistrates trial not I jury , Max from memory 6 months easily Google able . guidelines for this from memory wold be non custodial, girl will be an OK witness , was he interviewed at station ? I would guess not so lack of sol is in practical terms irrelevant.
I know this is important to your mate but in the grand scheme of things its small potatoes and will be very much governed by local vibe rather than national policy . round where I practice if it as you say , I'd start demanding custody area CCTV officers discipline and complaint records and leaning on prosecutors I imagine if I did that it would go down to a resist or drop . in other areas who knows . Your mate is best relying on his lawyer who will know the local turf better .
If he is on west Yorks I can hook him up with either my firm or another I trust .
What do you mean by drop crankboy?
Hes in Edinburgh im afraid.
SCots law if it happened in Scotland. So either District Court or Sheriff Court. No jury in either case.
By the way he wasn't arrested for "resisting arrest." So he was arrested for something else. Breach of the peace?
The resist and police assault came during and after the arrest.
Best advice - get lawyer. Sentence depends on previous convictions and what he is convicted for. First offender - most likely a fine at worst. Assuming the "aasault" was a push or similar during arrest.
Minor resist arrests/police assaults are often dropped when there is a plea to a lesser charge.
But if he is a first offender he isn't wanting any conviction at all.
Get a lawyer.
Drop means not pursue forget , withdraw offer no evidence .
My speculation is scots cases of assault PC more likely to be pursued than where I work.
As already said, this should all be discussed with a solicitor... your friend should now be getting in touch with one at the earliest opportunity.
As for the charge ... We weren't there ... but:
Reading between the lines on how you've described it, it smacks of your friend being drunk and remembering a version of events that suits his cause rather than what may have happened. The reality is that people's recollections of events, and the actual reality of what has happened can be vastly different... even with the best intentions. I've spoken to people who have been adamant of being pushed over and suffering bad injury, yet CCTV evidence has shown that they fell of their own accord, and no assault having taken place. In such a case, the mind fills the gaps of what suits them.
At a guess:
The police turned up, likely with some cause/reason to check if all was OK, you're friend turned on the beligerant chat, and it spiralled from there ... ending up with him being breached ... and at the point of arrest, he's thought he's having none of it, and resisted it. Pushing an officer away can constitute an assault, and its possible this is where its come from.
In general terms, I've not come across resist / assault charges where there hasn't been the events to support it. Its not something you just chuck in to a report to work it up someone.
Now you're friend may not like that version of events, but there is every possibility that is how it happened.
He should speak to a solicitor.
Now you're friend may not like that version of events, but there is every possibility that is how it happened.
Or at least that's how the police officer remembers it. The truth, as always, will lie somewhere between the two...
Absolutely. 3 sides to every story.
"The truth, as always, will lie somewhere between the two..."
Hmmm. I'm going with the sober bloke doing his job as the most accurate version.
Didn't he get a charge sheet when released from police custody after being arrested and charged?
+1 surely he would have been charged with assaulting police at the time?
If he is found guilty he is "screwed" with traveling or working abroad.
Lifer.
A charge is preferred by the police in the report to the procurator fiscal, the fiscal then assess the report and will then decide on the final charge. It is possible for the pf to change the charge from what is reported to them by police. So even if the police caution and charge at the station, it can change by the time it gets to court.
My speculation is scots cases of assault PC more likely to be pursued than where I work.
Having worked both sides of the border, I agree with this.
Lack of solicitor is irrelevant, as in Scotland your right to consult with a solicitor only applies if the police wish to question you (I.e. interview you), which they won't for police assault or resist arrest.
Didn't he get a charge sheet when released from police custody after being arrested and charged?
Not in Scotland.
better start preparing for a 6 month stint
Unless he's actually caused injury, and assuming he has no sort g if I can't record, it'll be a fine at worst.
Lack of solicitor is irrelevant, as in Scotland your right to consult with a solicitor only applies if the police wish to question you (I.e. interview you), which they won't for police assault or resist arrest.
Yup. I'll just add though that when someone is being processed at the station they do get asked whether they want a solicitor informed of the arrest. (Just don't get to speak to them unless as above, its prior to being questioned)
Seek professional advice, both about the prosecution and his drinking problems.
perhaps your friend should not drink when he goes out so no sympathy as he only has himself to blame.
Also no pace in Scotland
Having worked a little with Edinburgh cops they don't make frivolous arrests IMO and they are very very tolerant to drunk idiots 'cos its a pain to lock them up. Some people seem to think a cop cannot lay hands on you - they can but - if you lay hands on a cop is resisting arrest / police assault.
I suspect there will be CCTV certainly of his actions / behaviour / demeanour in the station. The number of folk I saw who came in fighting drunk but in the morning wondered why they had been arrested was a lot and IMO everyone should get a present of the video of their actions in the station - it would shock a few of them
Unless you pal has good witnesses and can show why this charge is not founded he is going to be convicted
if you are arrested you have to be read your rights and you will be offered a solicitor but you don't have to talk to one obviously. If someone is drunk I doubt they can be interviewed, was your friend actually interviewed? however, your friend should consult a solicitor ASAP.
Having worked a little with Edinburgh cops they don't make frivolous arrests IMO
My experience of Strathcylde's finest is the opposite.
No need to be interviewed if the case is not in doubt. Its almost absolute liability - touch a copper, get arrested for assaulting an officer.
How it usually goes down is cop tells drunk idiot to "go away you are being a drunken idiot" or similar. Drunk idiot get all belligerent and refuses. They get 3 chances to do what the cop says then if they don't comply they get lifted for breach of the peace. Fight at all with the cops they get done for police assault as well.
rene - I was working in the cop shop weekend nights. With only around half a dozen officers on duty and with it taking an hour or two of their time to deal with the drunk they have arrested they do everything they can to avoid arresting them 'cos it takes them off the streets
How it usually goes down is cop tells drunk idiot to "go away you are being a drunken idiot" or similar. Drunk idiot get all belligerent and refuses. They get 3 chances to do what the cop says then if they don't comply they get lifted for breach of the peace. Fight at all with the cops they get done for police assault as well.
+1
I've been a bit rowdy and drunk sometimes when at Uni, still somehow remember to apologise to Officers, smile and leave immediately - when they turn up.
I really don't get the people who get belligerent with them, it's only going to end one way - getting restrained with your face down in your own vomit.
When a cop says " you are a drunken idiot go away" the correct response is " yes sir" and walk away as well as you can manage
I really don't get the people who get belligerent with them,
Some people are just wired that way. I get drunk, I get giggly and then fall asleep. For some folk, it's not a good night unless it ends with someone getting glassed.
in fairness, like in all walks of life, some coppers can be dicks. I remember the only time i was 'arrested', frog marched out the pub and thrown in the back of the van for 90 min as i matched the description of someone who had just attacked a lad in the vicinity. The coppers were total dicks, and I didn't get a hint of an appology when the victim eventually turned up to ID me...obviously exonerating me fully.
not the norm, but lets not pretend that they dont exist.
Edinburgh cops had a good phrase for it in the usually sarcastic cop manner
"drinking on an empty head"
rene - I was working in the cop shop weekend nights. With only around half a dozen officers on duty and with it taking an hour or two of their time to deal with the drunk they have arrested they do everything they can to avoid arresting them 'cos it takes them off the streets
I have a friend in blue. He has often said "Anything to avoid an arrest". It just more paper work
I get drunk, I get giggly and then fall asleep
I read that as "I get drunk, I get jiggy and then fall asleep" 😕
So an update on this one..
Despite the jumped up charges and absolutely zero evidince they decided to pursue this prosecution..
My mate hired a lawyer, however 3 days before the court case he chickened out, and offered a plea bargain of guilty of 'breach of peace' rather than face the Assault charge. (he still denies any wrongdoing)
Anyway his lawyer took the plea deal to the proc fiscal who took one look at the case and threw it out as a waste of time and no case to answer, with absolutely no evidence by prosecution on offer. He didn't even want to accept the Plea deal..
So a good result for my mate on one hand, but this has caused him 8 months of sleepless nights, having to alert his Work to the charge, and over a grand and a half in Legal Fees
Absolute joke...is there any way to file a comlaint, given hes significantly out of pocket ?
Tell your mate to write it off and move on. What does he hope will be the ultimate outcome? How much extra effort is going to be expended to get this?
As above. Walk away, maybe stop the drinking that caused the issue in the first place and he'll get the 1500 quid back over a bit of time in less lager tokens.
Good news for your mate, but he's learned an expensive lesson; don't get belligerent with the police. They have to deal with that crap day in day out and it sounds as if they wanted to make an example of your mate.
complaint? He should count his blessings, take the lessons, and move on.
Life isn't fair.
Sounds like your mate was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but eventually got a result.
As others have said, just better not to get into that state/situation again.
Just put it down as a life lesson - the polis are dobbers - and aviod them at all costs in future.
Just put it down as a life lesson - the polis are dobbers - and aviod them at all costs in future.
to be fair most are pretty decent. Or at least thats my experiance of them , as a law abiding citizen.
Its a fair point about walking away though..it is a lesson learned. Not one that I needed teaching, but clearly he did. Even if you are in the right, you're still in the wrong is my approach to dealing with law enforcement!
It does seem unfair that hes had to stump up 1.5 k though as not entitled to legal aid. It was a minor offence, but what do folks do if they are facing a lengthy case? Obviously not applicable to my mate, but is there recourse if you spend thousands clearing your name? I'm not talking about OJ Simpson levels of Defence manipulation where he clearly bought his freedon..more in cases where the police have a pretty flimsy case and it still goes to court before getting thrown out or found unanimously not guilty? I'm sure it must happen on a regular basis..
tpbiker - Member
...It does seem unfair that hes had to stump up 1.5 k though as not entitled to legal aid. It was a minor offence, but what do folks do if they are facing a lengthy case?...
No, the problem is he drinks to the extent he gets "mouthy". That's the real problem and one day it will have more unfortunate results.
He got mouthy with the police and gets away with it? Lucky chap. Count his blessings and stop the behaviour that causes it.
No, the problem is he drinks to the extent he gets "mouthy". That's the real problem and one day it will have more unfortunate results.He got mouthy with the police and gets away with it? Lucky chap. Count his blessings and stop the behaviour that causes it.
well thats quite an assumption given you know very little of the guy and I assume didn't see the charge sheet! ..i'll admit he can be a bit beligerent, but never seen him remotely aggresive, and its only ever within our group.You seem to have blindfully acepted he did somethig wrong?
If there was a case to answer hed have been convicted, the PF could have easily accepted the breach of peace plea deal. But he didnt as he took one look at the charges, the character references and the evidence and threw it out...
I suspect I'm a better judge of whether or not he did anything wrong..Given hes gone 41 years without any brush with the law, or fighting, or run ins..I think you may need to reassess your assumption that he has a problem with his drink...
one of the things on the charge sheet was that he was suspected of spiking the girl he was withs drink! She got drug tested and was found to be just exteremly pished. As a mate he was getting her home as he works with her. According to him his only 'crime' was saying she was fine with him, which resulted in him being lifted.
Not sure that the result means he was 'extremely lucky'!
Your mate could raise an issue/file a complaint with the police force in question but it's not worth it, believe me I've been through that process and occasionally still pay for it. There are some utterly 100% genuine cops out there as I've (thankfully) met one who gave evidence in my favour regarding a false accusation pursued by D&G police but even if your mate wins he'll still be hounded as his card will be marked so to speak, best to tell him to mark it up to experience and walk away but walk away with the knowledge that it's for his own good to stfu if ever questioned or stopped by the police. State the absolute minimum you have to and make sure you understand the application of the law as many officers are rather power hungry and will try it on.
tpbiker - Member
...well thats quite an assumption given you know very little of the guy and I assume didn't see the charge sheet! ..i'll admit he can be a bit beligerent, but never seen him remotely aggresive..
Yeah, but a third party is not going to know he's not remotely aggressive, are they?
Mouthy in public when in contact with the police suggests he's a numpty or cannot control himself after a drink. There's no cure for the first, but the other is in his hands.
And if I'm unsympathetic it's because I had a mouthy mate like that. He never accepted he was causing trouble or that he was at fault. The police are fine - they'll usually only clean up the dumbo, but run into a bunch of neds and you end up having to wade in or watch your mate get beaten to a pulp. Too many good nights out got ruined.
My mate hired a lawyer, however 3 days before the court case he chickened out, and offered a plea bargain of guilty of 'breach of peace' rather than face the Assault charge. (he still denies any wrongdoing)Anyway his lawyer took the plea deal to the proc fiscal who took one look at the case and threw it out as a waste of time and no case to answer, with absolutely no evidence by prosecution on offer. He didn't even want to accept the Plea deal..
I would be pretty pissed off with the lawyer who advised him to take a plea bargain ( I thought that only happened in the USA ) if it was obvious that there was no case to answer .
The fiscal would surely have seen it long before the three days, as they take the charges and evidence and decide whether the pursue the case or not.
