[Closed] arrogant posh boys

Saw that interview on the news. At no point did Cameron say "I am not an arrogant posh-boy" or "I know the price of milk".

And Blair and Brown and Balls etc etc.

three quarters of the cabinet are millionaires.

I'm not sure if I want the country run by paupers with no track record of making good fiscal choices or millionaires who'll always have half an eye on protecting their own wealth, tbh.

[i]to have people who reflect the socio economic structure of the society it serves.[/i]

as far as Osbourne is concerned he's spot on, he only knows 10 people and they all work in the city.

The only downside of the description is that it was given by Nadine Dorries, a religious fanatic who believes that homosexuality is an illness that can be cured by jesus.

And Blair and Brown and Balls etc etc.

indeed, have changed it

wwwaswas, not all poor people have made poor fiscal choices and not all rich people have made good fiscal choices. But surely some balance would be appropriate.

Brown is not a posh boy. Not in the way that Cameron and Osbourne are. he is about as middle classes they come.

TJ lets not worry about such details please, its the overall picture that I wont to know peoples views on.
Can a working class person become an MP these days?

Mr Woppit - Member
The only downside of the description is that it was given by Nadine Dorries, a religious fanatic who believes that homosexuality is an illness that can be cured by [s]jesus[/s] [Url= http://www.hetracil.com ]Hetracil[/url]

FTFY

as woppit says - while i consider cameron and osborne to be elitist anachronisms who are doing their best to widen inequality and destroy nhs, welfare, education and society in general

they are both preferable to nadine dorries

wwwaswas, not all poor people have made poor fiscal choices

I'd say that was a fairly tough one to argue, unless they choose to be poor, in which case I'm not sure they're the best person to guide a country.

not all rich people have made good fiscal choices

This, on the other hand, is true.

However to suggest either side is incapable of seeing the others point of view is a bit daft.

TandemJeremy - Member
Brown is not a posh boy.

He made that very clear in his assumption of the true value of Gold.

AS to the other two, I do tend to agree, Osbourne particularly, but heaven help us, what alternative do we have? You can't seriously consider that back stabbing moron and Balls?

We so need a new political force in this country.

A good article in Yesterdays Guardian, provoked by this weeks Spectator main piece - Planet London

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/22/local-government-federal-uk-politics?INTCMP=SRCH

Basically, whatever colour the government, we're ruled by a remote, cossetted elite who snear at everyone outside their own immediate circle.

its needs to change, because they're looking after their own interests to the utter exclusion of everyone else

anagallis_arvensis - Member
TJ lets not worry about such details please, its the overall picture that I wont to know peoples views on.
Can a working class person become an MP these days?

It is difficult to define what working class is.

wwwaswas, not all poor people have made poor fiscal choices

I'd say that was a fairly tough one to argue, unless they choose to be poor, in which case I'm not sure they're the best person to guide a country.

If you have no money to start with and struggle to get a job that pays much you have very few fiscal choices to make. Todays fiscal choice do I buy food or heat the house?

Yes, let's only vote for people who are like 99% of the UK population.

This is the new cabinet:

[img] [/img]

On the plus side, there'll be a new TV channel that only shows reality TV and the tax on Greggs pasties will be removed.

Brown is not a posh boy. Not in the way that Cameron and Osbourne are. he is about as middle classes they come

It is difficult to define what working class is.

Someone who has a job and doesnt need or have a degree?

tree-magnet... much worse than this for understanding what life is like for most
[img] [/img]

Didn't labour already try that kind of social engineering by favouring women in the candidate selection process ??

Two further points: 1. the underlying assumption that the power is in the hands of the elected representatives 2. if you accept that, we vote for these people, perhaps try not voting for white toffs ?

I vote for women candidates whatever the party. By luck, or some might say design, this has never resulted in me having to vote Conservative. Funny that. If there are two women, which I think has only happened once, then it was best haircut. Once, there were no women, so I voted for the most obviously not a Toff.

Why do they have to understand what life is like for the majority of us? Genuinly interested in what advantages this will give.

Indeed wrecker - that where brown comes from and not from a rich area. he went to the local state schools

Not in the same class as Blair, Cameron , Osbourne who are arrogant posh boys

I vote for women candidates whatever the party.

What staggers me about CMD and Gideon is just how unpopular have you got to be for an idiot like Milliband to have a 13 point lead in the polls over you mid term or not?

I can only imagine what the polls would say if they had a creditable opponent

Every time I see that picture, my thoughts turn to assault rifles. Don't know why

[i]Basically, whatever colour the government, we're ruled by a remote, cossetted elite who snear at everyone outside their own immediate circle. [/i]

Pretty much like any top-of-the-tree organisation - but as others have said, I'm not sure if alternatives (of UK culture) would give us anything different.

Would you actually want the people in TreeMagnets picture making strategic decisions about how this country will operate?

We need educated people running the shop. And, it's a FACT of life, educated people tend to do better than non-educated people - and, as such, tend to have more of the trappings of middle/upper class.

The thought of letting a bunch of leisure wear, scratch card and fag addicts run the country when they seemingly need Jeremy Kyle to tell them how to talk to their own children is worrying.

Personally - I don't think the working class (or below) should even be allowed to vote.

Tree Magnet - it might help stop some of the real absurdities they come out with about people they do not understand and might mean some more realistic social policy that does some good rather than playing to the prejudices

Son of the manse?

In an unique position. Middle class in outlook and behaviour, working class income. Said by someone cleverer than I on Desert Island Discs when describing her home life as a vicars daughter.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Someone who has a job and doesnt need or have a degree?

You're ruling out a lot of people there. I teach undergrads who fit other definitions of working class (parents jobs, income level, where they grew up etc).

Why do they have to understand what life is like for the majority of us? Genuinly interested in what advantages this will give.

This question genuinely staggers me. As a small example, if we want to get the long term benefit climents back into work surely it might be better if someone knew something about what their life was like and why they have been on benefits so long?

So its toffs or dole scum? With nothing in between?

How about they take it in turns

Oh.... erm..... actually....

I'd say that was a fairly tough one to argue, unless they choose to be poor, in which case I'm not sure they're the best person to guide a country.

You're assuming that poor people have the choice to not be poor. That very often isn't the case.

If democracy was truly representative then we would be in a much worse state than we are, what we need is more pressure to amke govt more transparent, but hopefully keep the elite (ie the cleverest and most ballsy) in power as we don't want thick layabouts making improtant decisions for us. (not the the working classes are, my definition of elite is: clever and ballsy , and is utterly unrelated to received wealth/title)

Why do they have to understand what life is like for the majority of us? Genuinly interested in what advantages this will give.

That they might not just act in the interests of their own narrow elite?

You're ruling out a lot of people there. I teach undergrads who fit other definitions of working class (parents jobs, income level, where they grew up etc).

indeed, but if you want a definition you have to start somewhere. I think if you go to uni regardless of what your parents do you are middle class. For example I have a lorry driving, step dad, a farm manager father who died when I was younf and a nurse mum, they are working class. I went to uni and am now a teacher, middle class, despite the fact a lot of brick layers, car mechanics or indeed fuel tanker drivers who are working class are paid more than me. But this is a side issue really. to the thread.

It's disheartening to see some posters think working class = thick, lazy and fat.

despite the fact a lot of brick layers

not not more or at least up ere we arent

i am lower class 😀 8)

If democracy was truly representative then we would be in a much worse state than we are, what we need is more pressure to amke govt more transparent, but hopefully keep the elite (ie the cleverest and most ballsy) in power as we don't want thick layabouts making improtant decisions for us. (not the the working classes are, my definition of elite is: clever and ballsy , and is utterly unrelated to received wealth/title)

you make a lot of assumption here I do not agree with. Since less and less working class people have been in parliament and more and more career politicians have been around the social mobility of the country has reduced.

not not more or at least up ere we arent

i am lower class

self employed 😉

t's disheartening to see some posters think working class = thick, lazy and fat.

but not suprising

I think if you go to uni regardless of what your parents do you are middle class.

politics is rigged and always has been, they ALL piss in the same pot!
well, the ones that get anywhere do.

It's disheartening to see some posters think working class = thick, lazy and fat.

Its disheartening, but hardly surprising. Its been open season in the (Tory) press to demonise the working class for ages now. As it suits their agenda. The dismantling of the welfare state/health service/education system, and the further redistribution of wealth to those at the top

I'm a chav than wrecker, better than a **** I suppose

If you were a chav before you went to uni; you're still one now.
I'm not sure what a **** is so I'll take your word for it.

I'm not sure what a **** is so I'll take your word for it.

Thats hardly suprising

Nope. A chav will always be a chav.

And they say we have a problem with lack of social mobility in this country. No point people trying to better themselves, they'll always be scum eh.

Thats hardly suprising

I was thinking a bit about this last night - it has been mentioned on here before.

Why are our currant crop of politicians of all parties so unbelievably bland and dull - and such political nonentities?

wrecker it may have escaped your tiny mind but we are trying to have a discussion here, not some stupid game of insult slinging. Nice edit on your original post by the way.

Why are our currant crop of politicians of all parties so unbelievably bland and dull - and such political nonentities?

career politicians IMO

wrecker it may have escaped your tiny mind but we are trying to have a discussion here, not some stupid game of insult slinging

you make a lot of assumption here I do not agree with. Since less and less working class people have been in parliament and more and more career politicians have been around the social mobility of the country has reduced.

AA I agree about the social mobility but you said above it was side issue.

Which are the assumptions you do not agree with?

I was thinking a bit about this last night - it has been mentioned on here before.

Why are our currant crop of politicians of all parties so unbelievably bland and dull - and such political nonentities?

Since New Labour it's all been about tightly controlled PR, focus groups, and 'being a good communicator' - all more important than any political conviction/ability.

career politicians IMO

If you look at the cabinet and shadow cabinet, it seems that you study PPE at Oxford, get an internship working for a minister, then work your way up the greasy pole. Internships require you to have independent means and probably good connections thus ruling out the vast majority at a stroke. Perhaps the similarity of the career route has manifested itself in many people's inability to distinguish between the main parties.

But the question is why it has become so. Traditionally, conservatives drew many of their MPs from the professions and labour from the unions. I think it's to the detriment of both parties that this is no longer the case.

keep the elite (ie the cleverest and most ballsy) in power

you are assuming that we have the cleverest in power now when it would appear a huge part of society is excluded and social mobility is reducing.

I cannot believe you're accusing anyone else of arrogance.

no, you called me a chav I said I would rather be that than a ****, make of that what you will.

Why are our currant crop of politicians of all parties so unbelievably bland and dull - and such political nonentities?

Well.. I went to school with someone who is now a shadow minister. He went from school, to Cambridge, to the labour press office, worked as a spin doctor for Tessa Jowell and David Blunkett, then after proving his worth as an unquestioning yes man was parachuted into the second safest labour seat in the country.

So he's never actually had what most of us regard as a 'job', nor what most of us regard as 'normal' life experience. He has effectively spent his entire adult life inside the political Westminster bubble. I'm not sure he'd even be able to find his supposed 'constituency' on a map.

He's absolutely representative of our present political class. The only way you can progress in the present system is to shut up, certainly have no ideology, and represent your own interests and those who are paying your [s]bungs[/s] political donations

I don't really see a problem with the PM being well educated. Seems rather important in fact to have a knowledge of politics, economics, history and world affairs.

I also find it baffling this view that just because someone comes from a privileged background they immediately don't give a damn about anyone else and that empathy is seemingly impossible.

Aw bless. The chavvy grad has spat the dummy.
Oh, and I've not said a chav is scum.

No but you seem to be using the term as an insult, what do you mean by it exactly then?

I don't really see a problem with the PM being well educated. Seems rather important in fact to have a knowledge of politics, economics, history and world affairs.

[b]I also find it baffling this view that just because someone comes from a privileged background they immediately don't give a damn about anyone else and that empathy is seemingly impossible[/b].

I don't automatically assume that, but the actions of the current government show it pretty clearly.

If you have no money to start with and struggle to get a job that pays much you have very few fiscal choices to make. Todays fiscal choice do I buy food or heat the house?

I struggle with this notion of struggling to get a job, perhaps that's the issue. I know someone who, within days of signing up to an employment agency or two in the east end (poor, no jobs apparently) of Glasgow, was fending off offers of permanent full time work (office, admin, mundane almost skill-free roles) unrelated to their non-technical quals for up to 3/4 of the salary I require a higher degree to get. On speaking to a couple of these employers and working for a few of them they found out that the bulk of people sent in by the agencies either didn't turn up at all or turned up and thought the work level was unreasonable and walked out. All it was was answering the phone, filing papers and collecting info. I'm sure there must be people who struggle to find jobs, but it seems there's a large number of the unemployed who just don't want to work and could fairly easily be in reasonably paid employment? It seems the employers are struggling to find staff too.

Ultimately I think it's down to education and trying to ensure people see the value in working both for themselves and the country. We're obviously doing something wrong if people see more sense in lounging about at home.

I don't really see a problem with the PM being well educated. Seems rather important in fact to have a knowledge of politics, economics, history and world affairs.

I also find it baffling this view that just because someone comes from a privileged background they immediately don't give a damn about anyone else and that empathy is seemingly impossible.

You are entirely right of course, but wouldnt it be a help if the odd member of the cabinet or other MP's around you or indeed advisers had some different life experience?

No but you seem to be using the term as an insult, what do you mean by it exactly then?

you are assuming that we have the cleverest in power now when it would appear a huge part of society is excluded and social mobility is reducing.

I see your point, and yes not all of them are the cleverest, but it takes a certain admirable quality to get there does it not? My point is that a large majority of the population are so badly informed that if we had pure democracy then this sceptic isle would eb a much much worse place..

(The fault of that status of poorly informed majority may well be the fault of the system but we can at least try to change that)

I don't really see a problem with the PM being well educated. Seems rather important in fact to have a knowledge of politics, economics, history and world affairs.

Has anyone argued otherwise? The point is that to be a prominent MP, you have to follow a specific career path, which doesn't include any kind of life experience. Binners sets out a typical example.

Well put binners!

Can a working class person become an MP these days?

The most high-profile MP from a working class background that I can think of is Maggie. Be careful what you wish for...

I struggle with this notion of struggling to get a job, perhaps that's the issue. I know someone who, within days of signing up to an employment agency or two in the east end (poor, no jobs apparently) of Glasgow, was fending off offers of permanent full time work (office, admin, mundane almost skill-free roles) unrelated to their non-technical quals for up to 3/4 of the salary I require a higher degree to get. On speaking to a couple of these employers and working for a few of them she found out that the bulk of people sent in by the agencies either didn't turn up at all or turned up and thought the work level was unreasonable and walked out. All it was was answering the phone, filing papers and collecting info. I'm sure there must be people who struggle to find jobs, but it seems there's a large number of the unemployed who just don't want to work and could fairly easily be in reasonably paid employment?

whilst this may or may not be true wouldnt it be a help if someone around the gov had some direct experience (like thru' friends or relatives) of why these people dont seem to make much effort to get a job?

I struggle with this notion of struggling to get a job, perhaps that's the issue.

1. Most jobs available are poorly paid.
2. The number of jobs available is less than the number of people looking for work.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/chav
chav

British informal, derogatory

a young lower-class person typified by brash and loutish behaviour and the wearing of (real or imitation) designer clothes.

The most high-profile MP from a working class background that I can think of is Maggie. Be careful what you wish for...

What about Dennis Skinner?

Why are our currant crop of politicians of all parties so unbelievably bland and dull - and such political nonentities?

Easy one to answer - because if they have one ounce of personality/charisma the media will rip them apart in no time. Would love to see am MP who's experienced more of life's rich tapestry but they would never get past the starting gate.

The most high-profile MP from a working class background that I can think of is Maggie. Be careful what you wish for...

true, but I am not thinking in party political terms here.

Binners:
Well.. I went to school with someone who is now a shadow minister

Well, I'd expect nothing less from someone as "old money" as yourself, old bean, especially as you attended the Eton of the North.

You've kept it hidden well 😉

Actually... David Davis bucks the trend. He's from a working class background. Which explains why all the present members of Dave's gang absolutely loath him. And I've more chance of getting within sniffing distance of even a junior ministers job than he has

whilst this may or may not be true wouldnt it be a help if someone around the gov had some direct experience (like thru' friends or relatives) of why these people dont seem to make much effort to get a job?

Certainly. But but those with the skills and abilities to reach the cabinet will undoubtedly have a) changed somewhat since they were working class and b) no longer be working class.

1. Most jobs available are poorly paid.
2. The number of jobs available is less than the number of people looking for work.

1) Most of the jobs the person in question was offered were well above minimum wage. Not "support the whole family" well paid, but in the 18-22K range. Some were indeed poor, I remember one down at 14 but that was a commission based role.
2) I'm not sure where the numbers come from so it's hard to say, but the number of jobs in the job centre were no reflection of the true scale of jobs available if you scratch the surface and don't just wander about your local high street asking in your favourite clothes stores.

And sure, maybe you'd have to have 2 jobs for a while, I've done it, my relatives have done it. I'll do pretty much anything if I need the cash to keep my house afloat and not resort to being given cash by the state.

Aristotle - ssssssssshhhhhhhhhhh. I've been getting away with my northern working class monkey shtick upto this point. 😉

Paddy Ashdown wasn't exactly lacking in "life" was he?

pretty posh though wasnt he?