[Closed] Army Clearing Snow in Edinburgh - Political Stunt?

I assume you have offered to help clear the snow to help the aforementioned nursing home?

I thought they were clearing snow to provide access to the boiler room at Astley Ainslie?

My apologies - hey were also clearing snow from the Sick Kids (and it was the RAF and Navy too).

There probably was some PR mileage in it but who cares?

Capable people doing a decent job - good on them.

Thing is, we have a nursing home opposite and a hell of a lot of old people in the street yet no soldiers clearing snow.

Get on the phone and complain....they should be.

[i]"Edinburgh council called in troops to clear roads and pavements, get access to priority sites like doctors' surgeries and care homes"[/i]

http://www.channel4.com/news/uk-weather-army-helps-clear-edinburghs-snow

The poor lads probably haven't been told about your special nursing home opposite.

When they come to do it, don't forget to bring them plenty of hot steaming mugs of tea, with loads of dunking biscuits 💡

I expect this was a MACC request, there are firm rules on this, and the council will get a big bill. The council can't just "call in the army".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Aid_to_the_Civil_Authorities#Military_Aid_to_the_Civil_Community

The council getting the big bill and not providing all areas of the city with this service that have this need is where my problem is.

the council will get a big bill

Not necessarily - there might have been an offer of assistance.

SBZ - have you let anyone know this nursing home has a problem? Perhaps there were limited resources and someone used a priority system? Perhaps the council cleared council nursing homes - is the one near you a private business? Or would you just prefer to be apathetic and whine on a cycling forum?

No, the council asked and are being billed. edinburgh cooncillor on RAdio Scotland last night bumming themselves about what a great job they're doing by getting someone else in to do the hard work, suddenly very coy on how much it'll cost.

Wouldn't cost as much to clear if they cleared the snow before it turned to 3" of solid ice. There are streets in town which are absolutely lethal yesterday and today.

I saw a clip online the other day of snow sweeping machines (like those little pavement road sweepers) they send round all of the bike lanes in Copenhagen while it is snowing. By running whenever it snows, the snow never gets to lie, and it doesn't then have to be chipped away when it turns to solid ice a few days later.

If CEC actually employed enough people to constantly keep the roads and one side of the pavements clear, they could presumably save a packet in clear up costs (and the inevitable claims which are about to be submitted from people falling over!)

I'm sure it said on local news the other day that (Yorkshire) that they were using prisoners to clear snow.

In reports I saw the Cooncil accepted it would cost alot. Who's to know if it was justified or not?

They're certainly getting the PR out of it, but you would expect decisions like this to be made carefully.

And no I was not out clearing snow from my local injured-pigeon respite home.

but you would expect decisions like this to be made carefully

Sometimes our lads help out with various tasks like this, it can be a good opportunity to develop more junior staff, particularly aspiring commanders at junior level. Yep, clearing snow can be fairly simple but the lessons are still there.

In Polwarth there were 6 guys from a stone masons out clearing both sides of the pavements. Good job, and a substantial amount cleared. Might as well do [i]something[/i] if they can't get regular work.

LOLs at pixelmix, I walked into that one.

Edinburgh seems to be the new London.

Closes down with a bit snow and needs the army to sort them out.

I saw these guys on the news last night. They were trying to clear ice with what looked like rubber shovels.

I thought everything in scotland was done for free anyway because the english paid for it?
At least thats what i've read on here somewhere.

Mos - edinburgh i full of english people so you might be correct there... 😛

I thought that there was only 200 of them out and about yesterday, so they would have to be a bit picky about where they went.

I saw a clip online the other day of snow sweeping machines (like those little pavement road sweepers) they send round all of the bike lanes in Copenhagen while it is snowing.

Presumably you'd also like the tax levels of Denmark too?

Edinburgh has at least on mini snow plough for pavemnents and cycle lanes - I saw it in use

I thought they'd moved the army in because deliveries of vegetable oil weren't getting through, no?

Edinburgh has at least on mini snow plough for pavemnents and cycle lanes - I saw it in use

We have 3 in our town so I'd hope so, they stick ploughs on the the front of the ride on mowers.

Presumably you'd also like the tax levels of Denmark too?

Mind you, the tram system would probably pay for a few gritters and employees, but that's a whole different thread.

Then there's the mess that the roads are in now that the snow is going. Potholes everywhere.

Oh yes that is a right mess Zulu all the lovely resurfaced roads they'd just finished from last year are wrecked agian.

The council getting the big bill and not providing all areas of the city with this service that have this need is where my problem is.

I read this too and I don't get it. The army get paid out of the public purse anyway, why does it cost the council (i.e. us) extra to have them spend time doing this rather than doing army stuff at Dreghorn? I'm not at my brightest today, someone please explain....

trailertrash - Member

I read this too and I don't get it. The army get paid out of the public purse anyway, why does it cost the council (i.e. us) extra to have them spend time doing this rather than doing army stuff at Dreghorn? I'm not at my brightest today, someone please explain....

Yep - I'm missing that one too. It's an oft-stated argument that the helicopter flights used for Mountain Rescue and the like would have to be flown anyway as the crews require training, therefore we don't need to charge for Mountain Rescue. Isn't this much the same thing?

It makes me wonder though - do the services get paid extra for the tattoo?

I've really enjoyed driving about town the last 10 days: Everybody going at 10mph, and everyone driving carefully. It doesn't take any longer to get to places than normal! I woudn't be suprised if there had actually been fewer crashes than normal (that's "creches" if you live in Morningside!).
Today, however, everyone who owns a car was out in it! 🙁
Icy pavements not much fun for the peds though; the town staring to look like the Ortho Out patients with stookies galore!!

That a platoon or whatever of soldiers can be spared for a whole day at the drop of a Glengarry to perform this task begs the question: what the hell else might they have been doing?

Running on the spot? Rubbin' dubbin' on their boots? Practising for the Embra Tattoo? What task that is so vital to the defence of the realm is it that we pay them to do in the 50-year intervals between bouts of winter weather severe enough to warrant their intervention?

Doubtless this will amaze you, but the British Army is barely over 100,000 strong and they're already heavily committed doing more than you could possibly imagine.

Whilst they're available to assist the civil authorities upon request, they can't be everywhere at the same time.

So, if you're that bothered, grab a shovel and stag on.

pixelmix - Member

"If CEC actually employed enough people to constantly keep the roads and one side of the pavements clear, they could presumably save a packet in clear up costs (and the inevitable claims which are about to be submitted from people falling over!)"

If CEC employed enough people to keep the pavements clear this last week, they'd be instantly bankrupt. In my [i]very[/i] humble opinion, anyone who expects no disruption in the conditions we've just had is a cretin. Enough resources to deal with a week of the worst snow in 40 years means too much resources the other 2079 weeks.

*makes note - bailing out everytime it snows - to add to the list of costs that wee eck forgot to add to the figures.

That a platoon or whatever of soldiers can be spared for a whole day at the drop of a Glengarry to perform this task begs the question: what the hell else might they have been doing?

Let me think.

-Training to go on operations
-Supporting the training of others who are going on operations
-On leave prior to going on operations
-On leave after returning from operations

The answer is they can't really be spared. Slotting some ice clearing in to the programme would like have been a right pain the behind for all concerned.

If CEC employed enough people to keep the pavements clear this last week, they'd be instantly bankrupt. In my very humble opinion, anyone who expects no disruption in the conditions we've just had is a cretin. Enough resources to deal with a week of the worst snow in 40 years means too much resources the other 2079 weeks.

I'm no suggesting that we should see no disruption, but given that Edinburgh council has not carried out much rubbish collection or road repairs for the last two weeks, presumably these employees could be redeployed of keeping streets clear?

I think they did a damn fine job and I am certain that the people driving the gritters and ploughs were redeployed from elsewhere in the council

You can't do much without equipment tho. What are these other people you want to redeploy to use? What to transport them to where they are needed?

I say gritters on the main road I am on several times a day all hours of the day and night - the amount of snow was just too much to cope with. Gritted in teh evening before the snow fall, ploughed and gritted again in the day, covered in snow 2 hourts later.

I think the council did a damn fine job in keeping anything open.

You can't do much without equipment tho.

I am sure that a number of people in the council have done a sterling job over the past few weeks. It does seem a bit ridiculous though that Central Scotland should grind to a halt on Monday. It was barely below freezing on Monday, and yet there was chaos across the city.

There wasn't exactly biblical weather this week - there was one week of winter. Should that really merit having the army brought in to clear streets in Edinburgh?

Obviously none of us has the figures for expenditure, but I would be interested to see what the council is spending on reimbursing the army vs what they could have paid to have kept the streets clear with their own resources (had they been suitably resourced).

a couple more gritters and snow ploughs - dunno how many they had out but I doubt 2 extra would have made a huge difference.

its wasn't just a bit of ordinary winter. I have never seen snow like that before 2 feet + of snow lying.

Surely the nursing home is fairly sel-contained and well supplied. I don't imagine the residents would have been up and about if the snow had been cleared. Why would they be a priority?

[b]pixelmix - Member[/b]

[i]"It does seem a bit ridiculous though that Central Scotland should grind to a halt on Monday. It was barely below freezing on Monday, and yet there was chaos across the city."[/i]

Exactly, and think about what that means- things were kept moving in far worse conditions the week before, with the same resources and the same approach.

It wasn't any of that which caused the collapse on monday, it was just the timing and the traffic. A perfect storm if you like- a fairly clear morning and an improving forecast so the traffic was back almost to normal levels. So you've got the usual traffic issues then you bury it. The salt and grit you've already dropped is buried. Your gritters are just another bit of stuck traffic. So what is the solution? More stuck gritters?

[i]"I'm no suggesting that we should see no disruption, but given that Edinburgh council has not carried out much rubbish collection or road repairs for the last two weeks, presumably these employees could be redeployed of keeping streets clear?"[/i]

I can't speak for binmen but the road crews [i]have[/i] been out clearing snow just as you suggest- it was them that unblocked my road on tuesday, with a bunch of diggers. They also work in the grit depots loading up the trucks. And their trucks are convered to gritters, with a plough on the front and a gritting machine on the back.

If you're thinking "Wow, it's so obvious, they should totally do that"- what makes you think they don't already?

[i]"CharlieMungus - Member

Surely the nursing home is fairly sel-contained and well supplied. I don't imagine the residents would have been up and about if the snow had been cleared. Why would they be a priority?"[/i]

Was just thinking the same. At the home my grandma was in they cleared an entrance path, the fire exits and a couple of car parking spaces for the critical staff (and doctor if need be) but no more, and why bother? It's not as though the residents were about to go for a jog. Makes more sense to send the army out to clear the driveways of fit people

I believe that the reason they cleared the road to the Astley Ainslie was so that a fuel truck could get in to supply heating oil. That seems like a fairly sensible use of their time.

The point I made was why should the council pay them at all to help out given that they are being paid & sick paid & holiday paid & pensioned anyway. Either help out for free or stay in barracks.

Frankly, given what might be seen as the extreme nature of the situation, I don't see why local taxpayer's money should be given to the MOD who are funded anyway (though that might be argued by some within the Government).

[u]BUT[/u], if the MOD is getting paid extra by the Council (and it seems it is the MOD who will get the money not "the Army") then surely the soldiers should be getting a cut of it as they are just back from theatre and deserve a break. I doubt whether they'll see any of it though.

pixelmix

How much would it cost to have a couple of gritters / snow ploughs kept in a shed somewhere?

Quite a lot of money - even more to have enough to make a difference for the worst snow in how long? 40 years or so? You pay for the building you store them in, you pay the depreciation, you pay for the maintenance, you pay for the manpower to fix them, you pay for more people to operate them, the running costs etc.
We have been very unlucky on the weather recently - 3 years of '20 year' weather in a row. Not the sort of odds you'd bet on. It costs a lot to operate like Sweden, Denmark etc with their predictable, long winters. It really would be a waste of scarce taxpayers money to have all that kit sitting around for a week or two every couple of years.

Either help out for free or stay in barracks.

Trash - shut up. The MoD gets funds to do tasks set out by central government - training, operations etc. If another government department wants them to do something outside their defined roles, then costs fall where they lie. Funds are transferred between high level budgets. There aren't the numbers in the Forces or the spare funds to do what used to be done on a grace and favour basis.

[b]TandemJeremy [/b] a couple more gritters and snow ploughs - dunno how many they had out but I doubt 2 extra would have made a huge difference.

its wasn't just a bit of ordinary winter. [b]I have never seen snow like that before 2 feet + of snow lying.[/b]

Just wait till next weekend mate 😉

I'm just back from Bavaria today. It's snowed 2 feet of snow in one night, by 10am all roads were clear, gritted & perfectly drivable, even small country roads.
Everyone was out with snow shovels to clear the paths, a real community effort.
It was very impressive.
The snow tyres that are required by law are excellent too.
People in the UK always seem shocked when it snows.
The council definately needs to get a grip & the community needs to take responsibility too.

I see the transport minister has jacked.

The council definately needs to get a grip & the community needs to take responsibility too

Someone always trots out this BS. They have the equipment to deal with it. We do not. If we bought it folk would be moaning about wastig taxpayers money. Bet you never do that eh?

Just think of the amount of snow ploughs and under road heating you could buy with half a billion quid...

Much more predicable snow in Bavaria though. Pretty sure on one of the news programmes a reporter said it was Edinburgh's heaviest snow since 1963. There'd be no point buying all the gear for a once in a 50 year fall.

Place ground to a halt earlier in the year due to snow and ice too though. Just because it's the worst since 1963 doesn't mean that its the only time it's been bad enough to close the place down.

Just because it's the worst since 1963 doesn't mean that its the only time it's been bad enough to close the place down.

OK then - twice since 1963. Not the best return on an investment - I'm sure you'd be whining like a girl with a skinned knee over your taxes paying for a fleet of barely-used snow clearing vehicles costing millions and doing squat.

So who else cleared their pavement? I did *Smug*

Despite the fact that there are loads of commercial outfits in my stair and on the street I cleared a good chunk of the pavement - which shamed a coule of the neighbouring businesses to do so as well

cynic-al - Member
The council definately needs to get a grip & the community needs to take responsibility too
Someone always trots out this BS. They have the equipment to deal with it. We do not. If we bought it folk would be moaning about wastig taxpayers money. Bet you never do that eh?

I'll clarify this BS for the hard of thought.
It snows every year in Scotland does it not?
This 'equipment' the Germans have include cheap snow shovels and people who are willing to clear the paths for the good of the community.
I don't expect the amount of gritters etc as the Germans but I bit of effort on major roads & a bit of backbone from us lot is not too much to expect.
I've had people phone in saying they can't make work because of snow even though they live in the city, they're horrified by the suggestion of walking.
The council also have ploughs & gritters, surely major roads could have been done to keep the busses going?
It's the BS that the council trot out that you should be concerned with.
At least the transport minister thinks it was a balls up and resigned.
We need to accept & expect bad weather up here & stop making excuses.

For the hard of thinking

It snows every year in Scotland does it not?

Nope - not in the cities - I have never seen snow like this in 30 years. Even last year was a much much smaller amount

The council also have ploughs & gritters, surely major roads could have been done to keep the busses going?

Ploughs and gritters working flat out.

The main road by my house was ploughed and gritted at least twice a day and the snow still built up on it - thats how severe the snow was.

this was a truly exceptional event

This 'equipment' the Germans have include cheap snow shovels and people who are willing to clear the paths for the good of the community.

They have to do so by law IIRC.

I take you've not been in Edinburgh for the last fortnight?

Like TJ says, truly exceptional.

Ok, worse than usual, it was pretty bad last year though iirc.
But should we not adopt strategies from other countries?
Should it be law for the community to clear the path outside of their property?
Should winter tyres be a requirement?
Should people be better prepared for bad weather regarding footwear & clothing?
I've not been here the last few days, but have seen most of it & still walked 5 miles to work.
I still think council & community could do better.

2wheels1guy - Member
Should it be law for the community to clear the path outside of their property?

Should winter tyres be a requirement?

Should people be better prepared for bad weather regarding footwear and clothing?

I've not been here the last few days, but have seen most of it & still walked 5 miles to work.

I still think council & community could do better.

There was claims it the worst snow in over 45 years on our local weather the other week but the earliest, coldest and longest spell in over 250 years. The council worked hard to keep the main roads clear and the pavements in the town centres. We're not a scandanavian country we dont have their high taxes and annual snow.

Council response has been pretty good here. Would seriously question how Amey and Bear have coped with problems on trunk roads and also how Traffic Scotland disseminated information (if I see another variable message board saying "Caution Snow" this winter I'll tear it down by hand).

Scotrail / Network are a ****ing shambles too. Services still severely disrupted days after the last of the bad weather.

Glad Stevenson has gone. His performance on Newsnight on Monday was horrific.

I wonder what it'll be on Friday in Auld Reekie.

When is it the army all clear off on their Christmas leave?

Next weeks Snowmageddon event looks pretty tasty for Scotland.

Nah don't worry, it'll be fine gwaelod, all the disruption was personally caused by Stewart Stevenson, now he's gone it'll all be fine.