Ariel Hipercar - bonkers!!

That's brilliant!
Everyone should have a jet turbine on their car!

I watched the video, it is utterly bonkers. Its the first time anyone had used a turbine as a range extender and it took a bloke in a shed in Somerset to think of it

It's bloody brilliant, as he says it can run on multiple fuel sources; petrol, hydrogen etc

Give it a few years and it'll probably run on garbage (methane) like the back to the future delorean!

Very obvious styling nods to the original jet batmobile too, which I love.

Awesome. Like a cross between an RS200 and an Alfa.

Looks very cool, somewhat sceptical about their ability to actually pull it off though, beyond a prototype! The e-hypercar market is going to get extremely competitive, have they got deep enough pockets? Especially once Tesla brings out theirs with similar specs at a quarter of the cost! (and doesn't need a fossil-fuel range extender)

...they've sold out - it's got a roof and doors! 🙂

In Red please 🙂

Its the first time anyone had used a turbine as a range extender and it took a bloke in a shed in Somerset to think of it

Volvo ECC was 1992. Got to about the same development status as this...

I'm sure that Jaguar had a concept car many years ago that used the same principle of charging the batteries via micro turbines.
Just looked it up - Jaguar cx-75 in 2010.
I've got a good memory for useless info!

We have a simulation called 'driving like a tw*t on the road'

🙂

What a bloody superb car. Looks are, erm, challenging, but wow. Just wow. It's got a friggin jet engine!

Volvo ECC was 1992. Got to about the same development status as this…

A quick read says it was only ever a concept, and the gas turbine powered the car rather than acted as a battery charging method, so not exactly the same.

If anyone can pull off this sort of car, it's Ariel - look at how bonkers the atom was, and that was released well over a decade ago.

The Tesla roadster and this are going to have different target customers too, I doubt there'll be more than 10 or so of these built.

McMurty says 'hold my beer'....

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/best-2021/what-mcmurtry-speirling

I watched that last night. Crazy. It even sounds like it's 'reasonably' practical without the range extender jet engine, which they are going to do as an option.

richmtb

I watched the video, it is utterly bonkers. Its the first time anyone had used a turbine as a range extender and it took a bloke in a shed in Somerset to think of it

Well, Jag came up with it as a concept 12 years or so ago but it didn't really get any further than that. I'm not sure if anyone else has done anything more with that concept.

Jag Turbine Electric Car

I wonder what the legality is of having a hot jet exhaust on public roads is? I guess there will be some kind of exhaust cooling prior to it leaving the car.

McMurty says ‘hold my beer’….

It's a bit quick.

I wonder what the legality is of having a hot jet exhaust on public roads is? I guess there will be some kind of exhaust cooling prior to it leaving the car.

I don't think it'll be fitted with an afterburner. Although... 🤣

If anyone can pull off this sort of car, it’s Ariel

This thing is all computerised. There can’t really be much similar, beyond them both being cars and going fast.

Is it though? Apart from the motors being electric and it being fueled by batteries rather than petrol, it looks to be a quite basic car - no touch screens, no complex control systems - it seems to be primarily engineering which is what they're good at. Just because it's electric, doesn't mean there's thousands of lines of code running everything.

Edit: looks like it's being developed along with some other big names like Cosworth...

A quick read says it was only ever a concept, and the gas turbine powered the car rather than acted as a battery charging method, so not exactly the same.

The car did drive on electric power, but had a much smaller battery than we see these days and much more reliance on the turbine. Think it was about 80-100km electric range and ~600 total. And you needed the turbine to run to get full power.
And it was a fully driveable prototype. Have seen footage of it on the test track.
They used a lot of the design feature in the P2 S80.

So, yes, pretty much the same, but 30 years ago, with era appropriate batteries.

The US/Cali clean air laws mostly killed it as a idea.

Is it though?

According to the Autocar preview:

Four drive modes will be on offer in the Hipercar: Eco, Sport, Serious and Fun. (Read drift mode for the last of those.) None has been fully finished in our prototype, with the Ariel’s asymmetrical torque-vectoring motor control software in particular still to be written by key systems partner Delta-Cosworth.

Just because it’s electric, doesn’t mean there’s thousands of lines of code running everything.

Eldest_oab begs to differ. He's just programmed the throttle control and 'basic' buttons for an electric Formula Student car. It's been a month or more of work by two teams - one in charge of inputs needed for the motor, one for creating those inputs through pedals and buttons...

Probably count the lines of code in the hundreds of thousands on something this "simple".

Just coordination of all the cooling systems will be a massive job.
They should be glad they haven't yet got as far as integrating regenerative braking into the car. That's *really* hard to do well.

While I don't deny the engineering, it does look like shit

That is by far the worst looking car I've ever seen.

Have they specifically designed it for cruising around Belgravia so teenage car nerds can vlog it on their youtube channels?

1200bhp via 4x electric motors. 0-60mph under 2 seconds. 0-100mph under 4 seconds.

I'm skeptical. That's basically about 1.3 G acceleration, which is utterly brutal. I don't believe that street tyres would give enough grip to accelerate that fast and I don't believe a car without huge wings would achieve times like that, they'd just spin their wheels.

Very odd thing, looks awful.

And they have designed a track car, which they say is not a track car ?

Interesting concept though that its still a petrol car.

bonkers that it's road legal with all the arm & feet removers sticking out!

I don’t believe a car without huge wings would achieve times like that, they’d just spin their wheels.

Hence why the McMurty has a pair of fans. 500kg downforce at standstill, no wings for drag.

I’m skeptical. That’s basically about 1.3 G acceleration, which is utterly brutal. I don’t believe that street tyres would give enough grip to accelerate that fast and I don’t believe a car without huge wings would achieve times like that, they’d just spin their wheels.

A Tesla Model S Plaid edition is already doing verified runs of around 2s to 60mph on relatively normal tyres

The McMurty has 1500kg of downforce at standstill: 1000kg is provided by gravity.

Guess how much the Hipercar weighs?

You don't need wings to keep a cars tyres on the ground, gravity does a pretty good job. An F1 car has wings not for traction but, to generate turning acceleration of 4G+

There's an electric rallycross car which does 0-60 in 1.4 seconds too, not sure what tyres it's on but that's pretty rapid 😲

Having not long returned from Alton Towers and experiencing 0-60 in just over 2 seconds on Rita, anything quicker than that is going to be even more unpleasant. I thought I was prepared for it but being launched at that speed for the first time was still a shock.

I’m skeptical. That’s basically about 1.3 G acceleration, which is utterly brutal. I don’t believe that street tyres would give enough grip to accelerate that fast and I don’t believe a car without huge wings would achieve times like that, they’d just spin their wheels.

A Tesla will do <2.0s to 60 (if you subtract rollout, and I think it assumes the right kind of tarmac), and wings don't do anything for you at a standstill.

I don’t believe a car without huge wings would achieve times like that, they’d just spin their wheels.

Maybe that’s the answer to the jet exhaust problem.

Point it straight up to add downforce 😉

it seems to be primarily engineering which is what they’re good at

Engineering software is engineering, thank you very much.

Yours,
A Pro SW Engineer.

PS hacking code without a plan is not engineering.

He’s just programmed the throttle control and ‘basic’ buttons for an electric Formula Student car. It’s been a month or more of work by two teams – one in charge of inputs needed for the motor, one for creating those inputs through pedals and buttons…

How long is the testing going to take? I'd assume minimum of another month by both teams.

Someone sits in it? It has to work... and not bluescreen at 100mph heading toward the tyre wall 🙂

Typical Ariel bonkers idea. Shame it looks minging.

I remember when Ariel mooted the first idea for this it was to be a 1000/1000/1000 car (kg/bhp/miles range) - I can see they've missed their targets by a bit.

What they have been very successful at (as ever) is hoovering up several millions of "matched funding" from UK Govt R&D for what is essentially a fun/vanity project. OK there might be a bit of learning comes out of this for the partners but it's unlikely to come to market in any meaningful way.

Best of luck to them but it's not really offering anything new.

Depends. Maybe they get the turbine charger into production? A true multi-fuel range extender unit would be a step up from petrol / diesel hybrid IC powertrain?

Missed that it was 4 motors, that's just added another 100000 lines of code. Per motor.

Trying to synchronize the motors and traction delivery even when there are only two is not easy. Can't just let them dump all the torque into the tarmac without limitation and/or control. Or it'll get through a set of tyres in a week.
Even the Plaid has limitations on torque in place for their ~2 second 0-60.

Its the first time anyone had used a turbine as a range extender and it took a bloke in a shed in Somerset to think of it

I did a uni project on an electric vehicle with a built in petrol powered charger back in '92 (also considered a flywheel motor that was spun up by the engine and topped up by the brakes). It was a dustcart rather than a super car, though. I thought it made sense for city use and stop/start driving. The numbers didn't quite add up cost wise back then, but it would probably work now.

OK, not turbine-electric, and not production, but both pre-date the Jag!

1963 Chrysler turbine car, 50-ish made, back in the days when cars had style!

And some bloke's home-made turbine-powered Porsche 928:

Ah, if you're going down the pure turbine car, you're got to include the Rover-BRM Le Mans car...

it took a bloke in a shed in Somerset to think of it

I thought of it years ago, and I'm sure I wasn't alone. I didn't make it, of course, because I do not design cars for a living.

Jet engine power units aren’t new they’re called Auxilliary Power Units (APUs) and are fitted to most jet aircraft and helicopters - it’s what’s used to power all the aircraft systems when the main engines are off. Some of them are quite dinky - no bigger than a suitcase.

Great toy but what is the point really? I'd be more impressed if this effort was going into hyper efficient practical vehicles.

[i]I did a uni project on an electric vehicle with a built in petrol powered charger back in ’92 (also considered a flywheel motor that was spun up by the engine and topped up by the brakes). It was a dustcart rather than a super car, though. I thought it made sense for city use and stop/start driving. The numbers didn’t quite add up cost wise back then, but it would probably work now.[/i]

I had a beer fuelled discussion with a bunch of students about 15 years back about doing similar for a bus. We came up with a whacking great spinning flywheel under the floor that was spun up by an electric motor that got its power from connecting to the mains when it was stopped at bus stops. Not need for batteries or even clever electric motors, just a way to let he electrics connect when it pulled unto the bus stop which seemed relatively easy.

I wonder if that would work now I am sober?

I wonder if that would work now I am sober?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/02/whatever-happened-to-williams-f1s-flywheel-hybrid-idea/

The flywheel bit was tried on buses: https://busride.com/international-report-7/

I wonder if that would work now I am sober?

Pretty dangerous in a crash I'd say.

Great toy but what is the point really? I’d be more impressed if this effort was going into hyper efficient practical vehicles.

How do you know it won’t? Nothing is wasted in any kind of R&D, like using those sort of tiny gas-turbine engines. For starters, they can run on any type of fuel that’s flammable, petrol, diesel, vodka, Chanel No5, paraffin, pretty much any cheap alcohol. Combined with the new solid-state Lithium metal batteries that Volkswagen have been involved with which are going to have a life-expectancy of something like 240,000miles, and can charge in 15 minutes, using a small gas-turbine running on isopropyl alcohol to boost the charge means, theoretically, you’d never need to plug the thing in, just make sure the tank’s kept topped up every so often - once the range drops to 100 miles, say,  the jet fires up, tops up the battery, then shuts down. The solid state batteries are supposed to fully charge from almost zero in fifteen minutes.
Goodbye to worrying about traveling to remote places and not being able to plug the car or van or whatever in, if there’s any sort of liquid fuel like paraffin available, in order to keep the tank full, it’ll keep running.

I don’t see any practical reason why that sort of system couldn’t become the de facto method of making EV’s, the batteries can be smaller and lighter, there’s no risk of battery fires, because there’s no liquid used inside solid state batteries, the only fire risk comes from the jet fuel, but that’s no different to how things stand now, but if a bio-diesel was used, even that risk is pretty much eliminated. This little beast is a great proof-of-concept, so what’s the problem?

I watched the video, it is utterly bonkers. Its the first time anyone had used a turbine as a range extender and it took a bloke in a shed in Somerset to think of it

Awesome idea but, will your local indy be able to service a Turbine range extender?

The mention of a 2wd version and the range extender potentially being an option, the fact the turbine wasn't working on test day... All just makes me think it will get watered down, once you unplumb the turbine and stick in more batteries it's still batman's EV...

I reckon It'll end up as a trackable EV for Fat Dad's to live their best midlife crisis in.
But the inclusion of a roof and doors may well help sales...

I suppose the obvious question though has to be, why not just build an Atom EV? (or have they done that already?) that could be pretty awesome toy in it's own right...

The m-KERS flywheel thing was a touted as a demonstrator back in the late 90s. High density composite fly wheel in an evacuated chamber. They were trying to sell it to auto manufacturers (i sat in on the pitch in 2000 or 2001), but that version was a sod to package (big flat "traditional" flywheel). Big ones fitted nicely under a bus though. so they ended up having a couple of buses floating round, usually charged on deceleration to stop, then used to boost the pull away (as no one likes to be covered in diesel fumes at the bus stop.). I guess that died when batteries got more useable...

I was involved a few years ago with a fuel efficiency program where we tried, in no particular order:-
e-boost (small container of compressed air and an electric compressor to enable more effective turbo use).
mini m-KERS to restart the engine during stop/start, just a coke can sized mass spinning at 30-40000, clutched/geared to the flywheel.
Thermal KERS, a big thermal mass added into the cooling circuit, so once the engine was up to temp, we'd store a load of energy in a thermos strapped to the engine. Meant that warm up time of the engine was massively reduced for up to ~48 hours.

I’d be more impressed if this effort was going into hyper efficient practical vehicles.

I'm not a fan of hypercars but I don't begrudge Ariel for doing this. It's not like they are persuading people out of more efficient cars for daily driving. It's literally just a toy.

As for the effort - well, it's a few people in a small factory, versus hundreds of thousands of engineers and untold billions going into developing everyday cars to be as efficient as possible. I think it's alright.

Thermal KERS, a big thermal mass added into the cooling circuit, so once the engine was up to temp, we’d store a load of energy in a thermos strapped to the engine. Meant that warm up time of the engine was massively reduced for up to ~48 hours.

Second generation Prius had this in the US. It pumped half of the coolant into a thermos when you shut it down. People complained about it but they sold millions so can't be too bad.

I don’t see any practical reason why that sort of system couldn’t become the de facto method of making EV’s

It's not going to be necessary in a few years' time, if it even is now. We will cope with 300 mile ranges. Despite what some people think, it is plenty. Yeah there are some disadvantages to it (and as someone who tows I am affected by them) but we can manage. As charging infrastructure gets better, and it will, we just won't need range extenders. Then we'll get solid state batteries which I think will result in cheaper cars not just longer range ones. And a key advantage for manufacturers is the simplicity of making EVs with far fewer parts to source and assemble; a gas turbine would roll that back.

It’s not going to be necessary in a few years’ time, if it even is now. We will cope with 300 mile ranges. Despite what some people think, it is plenty.

Its bladder range that's the key 🙂

I like the idea of a turbine range extender tbh and if it was portable be very useful for long off grid trips as you could only carry it when needed, bit like a jerrycan.

A lot of these things come from research and collaborative projects which get part funding from government (Innovate UK is the umbrella organisation which in this instance is supporting things lightweight and low carbon).

Recent projects are listed here and you'll see Ariel and McMurtry mentioned.
https://www.nichevehiclenetwork.co.uk/

So if you have some time and an idea, find some collaborators and get some funding to try it out (the short proof of concept support isn't too onerous to apply for).

Flywheel concepts have been around for ages. See Parry People Movers and Flybrid.

I wonder if that would work now I am sober?

Pretty dangerous in a crash I’d say.

Also for those action sequences in films where a character is hanging onto the front of aa moving vehicle and decides that the sensible thing to do is crawl along the underside..

Its bladder range that’s the key

Maybe they'll make EVs with drinks dispensers inside, so you sip continuously out of boredom and then have to stop to pee all the time. That would make recharging much less of an issue.

Or make the seats less comfortable so you have to get out and stretch a bit every 2hrs.

mick_r
Recent projects are listed here and you’ll see Ariel and McMurtry mentioned.
https://www.nichevehiclenetwork.co.uk/

So if you have some time and an idea, find some collaborators and get some funding to try it out (the short proof of concept support isn’t too onerous to apply for).

You sound like you've some experience - what have you worked with NVN on? I instigated a project back in 2014 and it was a great experience and some of the themes are still being worked on. I actually believe that Ariel will have used the same chassis tech/manufacturer that we did given the parties involved.

On the bus thing,

Could you do it by induction maybe? Like with modern phones and electric toothbrushes? Stick one under each bus stop, you wouldn't get long to charge up but it wouldn't be far to the next one either. Probably pointless compared to just an overnight charge at the depot of course but, I wonder if it's possible at all?

It seems weird to me that we're looking at EV solutions for cars but not things like buses (or are we?). There's huge amounts of floorspace to hide batteries compared to a car. Lots of surface area up top for solar panels. Seems like a quick win to replace a sooty diesel.

It seems weird to me that we’re looking at EV solutions for cars but not things like buses (or are we?)

It seems weird to me that we’re looking at EV solutions for cars but not things like buses (or are we?

We are. There are a few E-busses around here. They seem to work the same way as ICE ones.

very useful for long off grid trips

Yeah that's the target market Ariel are clearly going after... 😉

Haven't electric busses been a thing in Europe for a long time? Not battery powered ones, like a tram, but without the tracks. Just a bus powered from overhead electric lines.

I suppose it's historically a tossup between capex and opex, it's only the last few years when anyone's really questioned whether having fossil fuel engines in built up areas is a good idea.

Yeah, they have a BEV bus trial running in Göteborg at the moment.

https://www.electricitygoteborg.se/en

Haven’t electric busses been a thing in Europe for a long time? Not battery powered ones, like a tram, but without the tracks. Just a bus powered from overhead electric lines.