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You know,chrispo's prose style seems awfully familiar,and when you click on his id,it shows one of the christmas pages,with no info about him.When was THM last seen here ?
Given that their crime is failing in their duty to the community, do we not all have a duty to the community to try and win them round?
Again, so what have you done so far and how successful have you been?
Vehemently and contentiously disagreeing and then running away when challenged.
AKA, “trolling.”
I’m making soup.
Err, no it was NYE and I was having a pleasant evening with my family as I said, rather than getting involved with all the bitterness on here
I don’t think anti-vaxxers are stupid people. Some are, perhaps. They’ve been mislead by malicious interests and a stream of nonsense in our media over the last decade that seems to validate every arsehole’s opinion.
See the BBC employing Farage in political debates ‘for balance’, or talking about what Kevin from Solihull said about a news item on Twitter.
There’s also an issue about feeling undervalued by society, where joining a clan that talks in pseudoscience, pats you on the back for joining and makes you feel superior is quite attractive. Your job is to spread the word of Jehovah the gospel of anti-vax.
This is one of the most sensible things I’ve read over the last few pages. Things are getting rather nasty overall which is sad to see. Weak minded, lonely or gullible aren’t the same as being ****ing stupid and taking that stance will not get you anywhere. The tone of this thread is very similar to some of the religious ones. The only difference being they get shutdown before they get this far. Anti-vax, flat earth etc all pretty much work in the same way as cults. I feel sorry for these people more than anything else. There is something fundamentally broken in them and I wish I knew how to fix it. Sadly I don’t, but calling them idiots on a bike forum is akin to yelling at a brick. It’s of no use to anybody.
I was having a pleasant evening with my family as I said
Apart from taking the time to come on here and goad people about "frothing", without making any actual point or contributing positively in any way you mean?
You do have to realise that how we engage about issues such as "red bikes are faster" is different to life and death issues.
The ones I know are intelligent, educated, caring, gentle left-wingers.
I have a friend that for all intents is a rational human (hell, she's lectures at a Russel Group University) but is convinced that the moon landings were faked. I've given up trying to reason it out of her, as Kellyanne Conway put it she's got; "Alternative facts". Once some-one is convinced that (for whatever reason) their set of self-generated personal thruths overrule...well, everyone else's, then you're literally wasting your breath trying to convince them other-wise.
Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination two, five, ten years earlier is never going to view nine months’ safety data as equivalent, however many people were tested.
It might make no difference, but it is not the same.
Why would it, the time component has already been tested as the vaccine is not new, it is an existing medicine which has had a known portion modified. The Passat B7 didn’t start having huge failures caused by the parts changed from the B6, VW improved upon it. This is not something that has been thrown together - knowledgeable and experienced people have developed and refined what they have - it’s not mix some chemicals and hope for the best.
Kelvin,you've only been a member for a month longer than Theartist....,I think he knows how the discussions go on here.
You do have to realise that how we engage about issues such as “red bikes are faster” is different to life and death issues.
Thanks for that patronising little quip
The whole nature of this forum has morphed over the years into a group of mostly like minded people (and this isn't just about vaccinations) who shout down and insult people who don't adopt the hive mind way of thinking. To be honest, I have no idea where the people who populate this place hang out in real life.
I have a reasonably large social circle, spend a lot of time in the pub, work all over the country, with dozens of different and new people, visit and stay in many towns all over the country - where I'll make new friends. I see the odd example of people who get offended by everything that isn't morally perfect, don't really like the conservative party, think BLM and rioting to prove your point is a worthy movement, aren't too happy with Brexit et al, but those that adopt all of the above are few and far between.
However, I NEVER, EVER in my daily life, come across a group of people who get so het up about these issues, blame anyone that chooses a different view for ruining their lives, accuse people who don't want the vaccine as being complicit to murder, even evict people from house parties for voting tory. Yes, people will have differing views, but generally at most will discuss over a pint and let anyone who has an opposing view just get on with life. It's quite an angry little community here and I'm glad you've all found each other, you must all be fun at parties.
As for the vaccine. I may take it, I may not. I haven't decided yet and I'll be way down the queue anyway. I'm certainly no anti-vaxxer, I've had many, many vaccines in my life. I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any good, or even how bad Covid actually is. But I'm just a dumb **** I guess
Kelvin,you’ve only been a member for a month longer than Theartist….,I think he knows how the discussions go on here.
And way before - that was the time of the great 'reset'
I Was just Singletrackrocks before (terrible name, I know, but we once used to discuss MTB'ing on here you know 😉 )
I did come on for a look inbetween eating, watching films, drinking, playing cards against humanity etc and noticed around midnight, there still wasn't one bit of happiness to be seen, hence my Happy New Year thread - that even ended up having a good dollop of misery injected into it
As for the vaccine. I may take it, I may not. I haven’t decided yet and I’ll be way down the queue anyway. I’m certainly no anti-vaxxer, I’ve had many, many vaccines in my life. I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any good, or even how bad Covid actually is.
Okay I'll flip that round by changing one word:
As for the vaccine. I may take it, I may not. I haven’t decided yet and I’ll be way down the queue anyway. I’m certainly no anti-vaxxer, I’ve had many, many vaccines in my life. I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any harm, or even how bad Covid actually is.
Can you give me a compelling reason why my version is less true than yours and if so why getting the vaccine would be in some way a bad choice?
On how bad Covid actually is, have you been living under a rock? Long Covid. Ring any bells?
Seeing as TheArtist is now kindly taking all the flak, I’ll just round off by responding to P7 and Kerley:
I’ve appealed to their sense of logic and proportion, with little success. They come armed with more facts/“facts” than I do. It’s exhausting.
Don’t be tempted to infer from this that such an approach is destined always to fail. Circumstances mean that I am not the person most likely to be listened to. Plus, I’m me: a week in and I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.
I should add that their scepticism predates Wakefield and is more along the lines of the argument for eating organic food, i.e. natural is best.
I’ve appealed to their sense of logic and proportion, with little success.
Do you think that lack of success may be because their sense of logic and proportion are a little bit f'd up?
Not turning this into a religion thread but the premise is the same. You won't have a discussion with a religious person and walk away with them say "what was I thinking"
I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then? Would it help if played the role of another devil’s advocate? Not the cuddly lefty hesistant-lite antivaxxers that you are fixating on. No. The real hardcore crew. The ones in the title. The online conspiracists who are full on Trumpybrexit anti-‘globalist’ diehards who are convinced that your taking them to task on their claims means that you too are a commulist tool of the shadowy MicrosoftSorosLizardFeminazis?
The ones who are currently cheering that antivaxxer who just destroyed a batch of vaccines?
ie the ones in the thread title. How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?
I remain to be convinced that this vaccine actually does any good, or even how bad Covid actually is.
What evidence do you need?
I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then?
I’m not sure what the question was, but no I don’t think there’s much point doing a role play as you’re too much of a smart arse.
Which is not meant at all negatively: I generally like smart arses.
No sooner than I reply, you’ve edited it...
How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?
I think TiRed’s approach in the Covid thread is worth emulating.
No one else has the patience. Especially with the clear time wasters. TiRed deserves (another) medal.
PS What is a “commulist”? It doesn’t even come up as a bizarre sexual predilection in the urban dictionary.
Thanks for your question chrispo
I’ll answer, but would prefer to do one at a time, ie my last question to you wasn’t rhetorical btw 👍🏼
*edit. I see, I read back and you just insulted me instead. And then semi-withdrew it. What a game!
OK so why don’t you just adopt tired’s method, it may save you all the time? I don’t know probably 2% of what Tired knows about the subject so feel uncertain of my talents in that area.
A ‘commulist’ is a socialist communist. They two words are very often interchangeable and equivalent in the far right rhetoric/conspiracist’s lexicon. This far right conspiracist’s lexicon is also infected day to day folk who used like most to just think in terms of flavours of a social democracy/mixed economy and didn’t drive so hard on the ‘WHAT? You want to deny travel for Muslims/antivaxxers???? you’re a bunch of nazis/leftards/leftists/rightists!!!’ Kind of rhetoric.
I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.
How many of this ‘massive’ addressed you as such? Count them? How many constitute a ‘massive’? I read your post/s explaining that you were ‘not an antivaxxer’ and I haven’t responded to you as such. But I did address your posts where I saw you as strawmanning, just as I called someone else on their stereotyping of working class white holidaymakers. I like to be even-handed 👍🏼
If you don’t like my humour then so be it, but trust me when I say you are having a good faith argument/debate with me. At least from my side. No BS. But I’m still not convinced there isn’t some trolling going on here.
(Sorry for the edit, am trying to cook a roast)
A commulist is a socialist communist. They two words are interchangeable and equivalent in the conspiracist’s lexicon.
Thank Christ, I thought it was just an annoying in-joke.
I read back and you just insulted me instead
Don’t go all faux thin-skinned on me. Absolutely not an insult. You’re too quick with the clever answers, in both senses, for it to be a useful exercise. It might be entertaining, admittedly, but I’m not at my sharpest at the moment.
OK so why don’t you just adopt tired’s method, it may save you all the time? I don’t know probably 2% of what Tired knows about the subject so feel uncertain of my talents in that area.
Ditto. But the patience and politeness we can all do if we try. It’s beyond frustrating at times but these are not people I can hate.
The whole nature of this forum has morphed over the years into a group of mostly like minded people (and this isn’t just about vaccinations) who shout down and insult people who don’t adopt the hive mind way of thinking. To be honest, I have no idea where the people who populate this place hang out in real life.
This. Absolutely.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
Quite ignorant really. Almost a fascist mindset.
or even how bad Covid actually is.
It's clearly been very serious indeed for a large number of people. It's hard to say how it would impact you. Maybe you should arrange to contract it then if the result is minor you perhaps have no need to consider vaccination. If it turns out to be more serious you may have no need of the vaccination.
The whole nature of this forum has morphed over the years into a group of mostly like minded people (and this isn’t just about vaccinations) who shout down and insult people who don’t adopt the hive mind way of thinking.
Whinges about how negative an online forum is, by going on to said forum and being negative.
Whatever else the STW ‘hive mind’ thinks, it’s a poor choice of phrase for covid discussions. ‘Hive mind’ is a wing used to denigrate people who stand by a commonly-held belief. In this case, the ‘hive mind’ says vaccines are going to be a massive help in this fight against this awful pandemic that is preventing all of us from doing what we want to do.
1) By using the term ‘hive mind’ you are implying that this is a simple-minded viewpoint but that is absolutely not the case here and it needs to be pointed out and corrected. ‘Vaccines offer a solution’ is the prevalent view held by most people capable of rational thought. The ‘hive mind’ would probably agree that the sky is blue, too.
2) Doing something for the benefit of the ‘hive’ is what bees are good at. There’s an obvious parallel with Covid and herd (hive?) immunity. If people were less self-obsessed they may understand that better.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
Quite ignorant really. Almost a fascist mindset.
But if most of us are in agreement, then what? Should some of us play devil's advocate simply to get a good discussion going?
But forget the dodgy analogies.
Because you tried and failed to drive a hole through it?
Someone who attributes their child’s autism or their own autoimmune disorder to vaccination...
... needs to educate themselves.
I’ve still failed even to convince the open-minded STW massive that I’m not a rabid antivaxxer myself.
Why do you suppose you feel you have to do that? I've felt no such compunction for me to need to do so. These things always follow a theme:
"I'm not a racist but..."
"I voted Remain but..."
"I've nothing against homosexuals but..."
I don't think anyone thinks you're a "rabid anti-vaxxer" but you are a little bit of an apologist for them aren't you.
You’re too quick with the clever answers, in both senses, for it to be a useful exercise.
Isn't that literally what you were just asking for in the CV thread?
Look. You're asking good questions. But you're also getting good answers and your response is always simply "but, but, but..." But nothing. There are people trying to educate you who know what they are talking about, if you're not prepared to listen to replies then you're just wasting their time.
The country nay the world would be a much better place if its populace got comfortable with the notion that it's OK for them to not know things.
The ones who are currently cheering that antivaxxer who just destroyed a batch of vaccines?
ie the ones in the thread title. How do you suppose you might find the skills to convince them?
Play them at their own game. I've had a limited degree of success by planting a seed that the belief that 'vaccines are bad' is from a Russian conspiracy to attempt to destabilise the West and weaken its population.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
Because the 'other points of view' are in this case wrong, and in the case of the covid deniers, anti-vaxxers, etc., dangerous. There's no refusal to allow another point of view, but there is a kind of obligation to point it out and try to change it.
It's not 'dogma' that makes me think a covid denier is wrong, it's overwhelming fact based evidence. If anything, persisting with the opposing position when it has been debated over and over is more dogmatic.
But I'll offer again, bring the counter and we'll listen. But be prepared to listen as well.
I’ve had a limited degree of success by planting a seed that the belief that ‘vaccines are bad’ is from a Russian conspiracy to attempt to destabilise the West and weaken its population.
Like all the best conspiracy theories there's an element of truth to that. Maybe too much.
Well, yes, there is a reason I said Russia rather than China. But I can't say too much more.
Look. You’re asking good questions. But you’re also getting good answers and your response is always simply “but, but, but…” But nothing. There are people trying to educate you who know what they are talking about, if you’re not prepared to listen to replies then you’re just wasting their time
True. But, but, but...
Not agreeing with people isn’t the same as not listening. Questioning what people are saying isn’t the same as not listening.
Nothing is black and white, there are always buts. Testing the hypothesis is what science is all about, no?
I haven’t been offered much in the way of scientific enlightenment on this thread anyway. All I’ve had really is opinions and grief, some of it doubtless brought on by me but also some of it because people simply haven’t listened to me.
If you’re not 100% with us, you’re against us. Or not listening. And we know best. So you must be a dumb ****.
Not everyone. But collectively that is the end-result.
All in all, it’s a really toxic environment and to be honest I’ve been trying to exit this thread for a few days but people keep then asking me direct questions or making direct attacks and I get sucked back in, like now.
And I know I’m opening myself up for a load more grief now, but it would be great if just one or two of you would for a moment consider that even someone who “doesn’t listen” to you or doesn’t unquestioningly agree with everything you say might still be worth listening to.
Well, actually, no. I am fairly certain that you would all do that in real life. What is it about this place?
It’s like dealing with anti-vaxxers...
You're really not worth listening to, sorry. There may be people who have questions about vaccines with something worthwhile to say, you're not one of them I'm afraid.
A commulist is a socialist communist. They two words are interchangeable and equivalent in the conspiracist’s lexicon.
Thank Christ, I thought it was just an annoying in-joke.
I was hoping he’d misheard the word years ago and honestly thought that’s how communist was spelled and pronounced.
What? You're claiming to have no knowledge so why would you disagree with the answers you have been given? Would you go into a lecture and start arguing because you don't understand the subject matter?
You’re really not worth listening to, sorry.
*Edit - I see you've edited to add more content....
And such is the self congratulatory and back slapping nature of this forum, that you can post a shitty retort like that and know it will go unchallenged because your mates will back you up.
It's why p7eaven thinks he's so hilarious.
It's not a very pleasant place at all. Why do you think all the women left?
Which I think brings me back round to my first contribution to this thread.
Well if you want to play the game and not the man fancy replying to my earlier post?
Well if you want to play the game and not the man fancy replying to my earlier post?
Oh, that. Yeah there's a difference - you don't find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
And long covid? Yeah, a few people seem to have long term effects, maybe they have underlying health problems?
I know 6 people, myself included (who's got shit lungs from having pneumonia -twice), who have had it with no major problems 🤷
Oh, that. Yeah there’s a difference – you don’t find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
And long covid? Yeah, a few people seem to have long term effects, maybe they have underlying health problems?
I know 6 people, myself included (who’s got shit lungs from having pneumonia -twice), who have had it with no major problems 🤷
But you do acknowledge there is a balance between risk and reward in taking the vaccine? Personally I know of 4 people having had it. 1 no symptoms, 1 minor, 1 with 6 months of poor health and one seriously ill. But the many thousands of deaths do point me heavily towards vaccination, as it seems certain that the more people who are vaccinated, the quicker we can get back to normal.
And long covid? Yeah, a few people seem to have long term effects, maybe they have underlying health problems?
I’ve had it. No pre existing health problems and I was actually pretty fit. Caught Covid in April and haven’t been right since. Still get breathless and a tight chest every now and then and my mental health has suffered hugely.
Used to be able to cycle from my door, around an extended loop of Macc forest and back home in roughly an hour. Tried it twice in August and it took me an hour and a half both times just to get to the old cabin at the top of the first section. I’m an old fashioned ‘men don’t cry’ idiot and I sat down and wept in frustration the second time before heading home to bed as I was so tired.
Sold my bike after that, bought a gravel bike for riding around the local canal network. Only ridden it three times as I simply have little energy and sleep a lot when not at work. Sorry to derail, but Covid is a ****ing **** of an illness and I wouldn’t wish some of these after effects on anyone. I feel ancient and knackered at 43.
But you do acknowledge there is a balance between risk and reward in taking the vaccine? Personally I know of 4 people having had it. 1 no symptoms, 1 minor, 1 with 6 months of poor health and one seriously ill. But the many thousands of deaths do point me heavily towards vaccination, as it seems certain that the more people who are vaccinated, the quicker we can get back to normal.
Oh, most definitely. I have absolutely no issue with a vaccination programme. I'm just very much of the mindset that it should be personal choice
I’ve had it. No pre existing health problems and I was actually pretty fit. Caught Covid in April and haven’t been right since. Still get breathless and a tight chest every now and then and my mental health has suffered hugely.
Used to be able to cycle from my door, around an extended loop of Macc forest and back home in roughly an hour. Tried it twice in August and it took me an hour and a half both times just to get to the old cabin at the top of the first section. I’m an old fashioned ‘men don’t cry’ idiot and I sat down and wept in frustration the second time before heading home to bed as I was so tired.
Sold my bike after that, bought a gravel bike for riding around the local canal network. Only ridden it three times as I simply have little energy and sleep a lot when not at work. Sorry to derail, but Covid is a * * of an illness and I wouldn’t wish some of these after effects on anyone. I feel ancient and knackered at 43.
I'm very sorry that you've had the shit side of Covid, it must be awful. Hopefully you'll make a full recovery soon.
I wouldn't wish any illness on anybody. Covid is certainly a strange one with how it affects some and not others
Personal choice is fine when everyone (especially those who could get hit the worst) can have a vaccine.
The trouble is a fair number cannot so they are relying on the general population to protect them too.
In an ideal would everyone had a vaccine that wants it which prevents them getting any illness from covid.
at that point the 40% out whatever who don't want it are on their own to deal with whatever consequences there are.
Sadly we don't live in that world so there will be a residual risk to people meaning they either have to stay isolated or take a dangerous risk
Well, actually, no. I am fairly certain that you would all do that in real life. What is it about this place?
I wouldn't let it bother you, this is a very good rule in life.
I would just say that you can never, ever, know another person or their life or circumstances, and should never rush to judge them.
Which sounds a bit Christian, which I’m not, but there we go.
It is a bit Christian but as Christianity underpins arguably pretty much all of Western thought it is hardly a surprise that non-believers share it.
MacCruiskeen's post was very good though - one of the best I've seen on here in a long time.
It’s not a very pleasant place at all.
Bye then.
The guy was just trolling and every response would be met with 5 more daft questions that he already knew the answers to - what's the point?
My missus probably won't be able to take the vaccine for medical reasons despite being in the highest risk category so we are reliant on a good uptake amongst other people to get back to anything like a normal life - so forgive me if I have little time for people who don't want to take it because they just don't really fancy it.
Oh, that. Yeah there’s a difference – you don’t find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
Yes, except that statement is not true.
I mean it’s plausible that there may be hitherto unrecognised adverse effects of any medication on a longer timeframe than it can be studied for. But the history of drug trials and vaccinations in particular doesn’t support that at all. A handful of people get acute allergic reactions, skin redness etc. Then there’s the weird neurological reactions that are reported (very rarely) like Guillain-Barré, Bell’s palsy or transverse myelitis, which occur over a few weeks and months. There is no evidence for longer term adverse events in vaccines we have been using for years.
Of course, the covid vaccine could be different to all the others that went before it, but there’s nothing in its biology to suggest that’s likely. So you have to weigh all up the documented adverse events plus this small hypothetical risk vs the very real and significant risk of illness / death from covid. At this stage in the pandemic where we have run out of ITU beds in some regions, it’s what you might call a no-brainer.
I can tell that you are doing some sort of rational balancing in your head. But you are IMO putting too much weight on potential vaccine risks and clearly not enough on the very real risks of covid.
The Mrna vaccines are similar – the current Pfizer/Moderna vaccines are the product of work dating from many years before Covid was a twinkle in the saliva of a friendly bat.
Thanks, all of that info, and multiple links to articles about it, not the Daily Mail, I posted up pages back. Nobody seems to have bothered reading it, it seems.
I’ve had enough, chrispo and his circular arguments remind me far to much of someone else on here for me to waste my time for no reason.
I’m near the bottom of a glass of 12yo Highland Park, I’m going to pour another, stick my headphones on and listen to something out of the 80-odd albums I’ve downloaded recently; I think it’ll be a much more rewarding experience. Good luck arguing with Chrispo, if someone can locate the bridge he lives under, maybe we can dam the river and flush him out. ‘Night all.
Oh, most definitely. I have absolutely no issue with a vaccination programme. I’m just very much of the mindset that it should be personal choice
I think it will be personal choice. My hope is that enough people will take it to make it highly successful - which I think is why people are so vehemently opposed to anti-vaxxers spreading disinformation. My ex wife is against any vaccinations and refuses to let my daughter have hers. Drives me nuts - I daren't tell my mum as she was a nurse in the 70's and FULLY understands through first hand experience why MMR is so important. I'll be pointing out to my ex that her refusal to be vaccinated against Covid means she'll not be welcome around grandparents for a considerable time.
The MRNA vaccine danger was discredited years ago. The doctor responsible was struck off due both his data being rubbish and no one else able to match his conclusions. Very like the aluminium scandal years earlier, except that was a mistake rather than incompetence. He then went off to America to peddle his crap where he found a rather more generally gullible audience. Now due to social media the whole saga has resurfaced reinforced by conspiracy theories.
He then went off to America to peddle his crap where he found a rather more generally gullible audience.
And love with Elle MacPherson
True. But, but, but…
Not agreeing with people isn’t the same as not listening.
True. But there comes a point where "opinion" is irrelevant. There comes a point where "opinion" is dangerous.
And there comes a point where people are simply wrong. You might want to argue in favour of a Flat Earther's rights to their opinions, but would you want to give one a job as an Air Traffic Controller?
Because that's really what this thread is all about. If you're discussing vaccinations and someone goes "yes but autism" then it no longer becomes a matter of opinion, they are just flat out wrong. It is literally that simple. It is absolutely black and white.
Questioning what people are saying isn’t the same as not listening.
Questioning what people are saying is to be applauded, I've already said this at least once on this thread (something something listening something?). But if one is not revising ones oh-so-valuable "opinion" when presented with new information, one should not be surprised when one hears words like "dumb" or "cult".
Nothing is black and white, there are always buts. Testing the hypothesis is what science is all about, no?
That's part 1. Part 2 is then learning from the results, iterating and adapting, rather than doubling-down on an increasingly fallacious original hypothesis.
I haven’t been offered much in the way of scientific enlightenment on this thread anyway.
Again, I've already said this. What have you asked that hasn't been answered? If you ask logical questions you'll get logical answers. If instead you solicit opinion then that's what you'll get, robustly.
I’ve been trying to exit this thread for a few days
Well, that's on you. If you want to have a discussion then fantastic, it's genuinely great to have alternate viewpoints and inquisitive minds. But if you don't then and yet you're still batting then that's no-one else's fault.
it would be great if just one or two of you would for a moment consider that even someone who “doesn’t listen” to you or doesn’t unquestioningly agree with everything you say might still be worth listening to.
OK, we're listening. Well, I am, can't speak for anyone else. What've you got that's worth hearing?
Yeah there’s a difference – you don’t find out the potential harmful effects of any new vaccine until years later.
Given that we've been vaccinating since the 1700s, that we have completely eradicated polio globally and the only thing still keeping a couple of other contagious diseases in existence is media-fuelled scare stories and pox parties: how many vaccines can you name which have ever proven to be more harmful than beneficial? There's probably others but the only major medical 'whoops' I can think of in my living memory is Thalidomide and that was a) 10-20 years before I was born and b) not a vaccine.
Where do you think the greater risk is here? How many years are you prepared to wait in order to ascertain the "potential harmful effects" of not taking it? Do you have any credible reason to think that it might be dangerous beyond JHJ levels of "makes you think, do your own research"?
This is not territory unknown, this is incredibly mature science. Stop being a plum, you're better than this.
It is almost a waste of time taking a part in many threads due the the dogmatic unacceptance of others points of view.
All depends how ill informed or trollish your comments are. If you make opposing statements in a discussion without any evidence (or anything else in fact) to back them up they will be questioned and 'ganged up' on by the people who have given it more that 10 seconds of thought.
I find it works well and helps to provide facts, information and lines of thought that I may have missed before.
Plus, there’s an increasing amount of evidence that the longer term effects of covid are pretty awful - chronic respiratory symptoms, effect on athletes’ hearts, permanent loss of smell/taste.
No. Brainer.
And there comes a point where people are simply wrong. You might want to argue in favour of a Flat Earther’s rights to their opinions, but would you want to give one a job as an Air Traffic Controller?
I'm saving that one. It's funny cos it's true.
Oh, most definitely. I have absolutely no issue with a vaccination programme. I’m just very much of the mindset that it should be personal choice.
I quite agree. so long as the non vaccinated cannot enter public buildings, go to the pub, access services etc.
Why should your choice not to be vaccinated increase my risk?
I quite agree. so long as the non vaccinated cannot enter public buildings, go to the pub, access services etc.
Why should your choice not to be vaccinated increase my risk?
It's not been proven that vaccination totally reduces the spread of the virus
I'm allergic to penicillin, so I'll wait a bit longer thanks
And surely, if you've had the vaccine, I'll be no risk to you?
I’m allergic to penicillin, so I’ll wait a bit longer thanks
🤨
Heard reports that people with penicillin (or other) allergies may have a reaction to the vaccine - especially the pfizer.
I'll see if it develops. If there's nothing to it, then fine
.
Individuals with previous allergy to antibiotics
Allergy UK (Allergy and the Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccine page) advise that allergy to penicillins and other drugs is not a contraindication to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. They also state that an antibiotic called kanamycin is used during the manufacturing process but is not detectable in the final product. No other antibiotics (such as penicillins, sulphonamides and neomycin) are used during the manufacturing process
The head of the MHRA, Dr June Raine, said: "Any person with a history of anaphylaxis to a vaccine, medicine or food should not receive the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine.
Now, I don't know what my reaction to penicillin is - there's no one alive who can tell me. I'm sure there's a very strong chance that I'd be totally fine, but I'll see what develops over the coming months. I'll not be in line for it for a while anyway
And surely, if you’ve had the vaccine, I’ll be no risk to you?
You're right, you probably won't. But you will be a risk to my wife whose compromised immune system will most likely mean she can't be vaccinated. Her and tens of thousands like her. So you might perhaps understand why I think your selfish attitude stinks.
Now, I don’t know what my reaction to penicillin is – there’s no one alive who can tell me. I’m sure there’s a very strong chance that I’d be totally fine, but I’ll see what develops over the coming months. I’ll not be in line for it for a while anyway
Would it not perhaps have been sensible to lead with that information rather than saving it for your closing argument? You could have saved us all a load of grief.
Here's a thought, avoid the Pfizer and get the AZ. Problem solved.
So you don't have a history of anaphylaxis as a response to penicillin, is that what you're saying? How do you know you're allergic to it?
I had pneumonia twice as an infant and gather that it was found out at the time, or maybe something else. I was told by my mother from a young age that I was allergic to penicillin, so have never taken it.
What reaction to it I would have at 49 years old, I have no idea
Now, I don’t know what my reaction to penicillin is – there’s no one alive who can tell me
I suggest a medical professional? Pin-prick and/or oral challenge tests.
https://www.srft.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=193160&type=full&servicetype=Inline
Other locations available. If the hospitals aren’t heaving with Covid patients. Hopefully a vaccine will be available to us all sooner than later to help with that problem. Penicillin can be life-saving so I’d consider it fairly crucial to be informed as to your own situation. IANAD etc
Further reading:
https://psnet.ahrq.gov/web-mm/delayed-sepsis-management-due-ambiguous-allergy
I look at it this way...
In a small street of 200 people, if all of them caught COVID at least 1 will die. 40 others will suffer "long COVID" affecting their lifestyle for an unknown period of time.
If that whole street were vaccinated then maybe one would have a minor allergic reaction. 4-6 would develop minor symptoms of COVID. The rest would not notice they had COVID. If every street around them were also vaccinated then the local hospital would not need to treat anyone for COVID and could treat other more serious ailments.
Now have a street full of anti-vaxxers....
Back to 1 neighbour dieing and 40 suffering long term. I know what street I'd rather be in
Now if I can go back to the paint analogy....
Paint makers have been making white paint for 200 years. 190 years ago someone asked them to make blue paint that worked just as well. It took them a year but they did it. Over time more people wanted paint so they hired more people to make it. Then other colours were requested. Over the years the paint makers mastered loads of new colours as customers requested them. All based on the white paint they started from, all successful. Suddenly 200 years later the whole world decides they want the same new colour. Loads of stakeholder money pours in allowing the paint makers to focus all their time and energy on this one new colour. Why does anyone doubt this colour will work?
All depends how ill informed or trollish your comments are.
Ahh the old "you're too thick and are a stupid troll" approach.
Quite common that one.
Ahh the old “you’re too thick and are a stupid troll” approach.
Most people engaging in trollish behaviour, posting ill informed comments for a rise, to get people “frothing”, are not thick or stupid. They are playing a game (call it devil’s advocate if you want it to sound reasoned), one which requires reasonable knowledge of the subject, and a good understanding of how to press people’s buttons.
I believe it should be down to individual choice, however, if you chose not to & then find yourself excluded from international travel for example the EU.....
Yet, for example, your R&D team was 2 fairly average people when developing blue paint, because it was a limited market. The entire world suddenly goes nuts for green paint. So you have limitless funding and an R&D team the size of a small country, filled with all of the world’s best paint designers. Green paint will be the bomb. And that is a fact.
Indeed.
NEVER before has there been a collective GLOBAL effort to achieve a positive outcome. It is quite frankly amazing what has been achieved, I for one am staggered.
Sadly, it does rather make you wonder what else we could crack if we worked together?...
I believe it should be down to individual choice, however, if you chose not to & then find yourself excluded from international travel for example the EU…..
I think that's fair enough - but to say you shouldn't be allowed in pubs and on public transport is completely OTT IMO
Depends if pubs and public transport operators want the rest of us to use them, I suppose.
Anyway, this is all irrelevant right now. Getting enough of the new vaccines in people is not being hampered by anti-vaxxers, and recent problems as regards measles etc have died down.
The only folk I know that are adamant they're not having the vaccine are the kinda folk that wouldn't listen to such rules anyway.
You see, that's where a sensible debate could be held. I personally feel it is proportionate to have some kind of passport system for vaccinations so that those who CHOOSE not to have it are not allowed into confined public spaces such as pubs, gigs, sports UNTIL we reach a point where the virus is controlled properly.
It would also mean those who haven't yet been vaccinated because their turn hasn't come can't go, but that's just the rub of it.
I don't know where the line comes that defines under control, or indeed if there is a line where the younger sections who don't need a vaccine or won't be offered it for ages are exempted, but I can see that allowing parts of society to reopen once they have been vaccinated is an option.
I can also see that you may have a different view and I'm more than happy to discuss that and even be convinced otherwise.
It'll be interesting because in the end these places are private venues and can set their own rules within reason - no trainers, ripped jeans, etc. I wonder if for example hotels, theme parks (eg Disney) will be insisting on it even if the Gov doesn't mandate it.
I personally feel it is proportionate to have some kind of passport system for vaccinations so that those who CHOOSE not to have it are not allowed into confined public spaces such as pubs, gigs, sports UNTIL we reach a point where the virus is controlled properly.
It would also mean those who haven’t yet been vaccinated because their turn hasn’t come can’t go, but that’s just the rub of it.
It would be a simple health and safety argument to make.... if you are not vaccinated then the venue isn't insured if you contract symptomatic COVID
It would also mean those who haven’t yet been vaccinated because their turn hasn’t come can’t go, but that’s just the rub of it.
It would also mean that immunosuppressed people who can't take a vaccine would never get to go.