Argh!!! Motorbike knocked over into someone else's car

Your neighbours sound like ****s. 

...p.s. the flooders also don't drive. So it's not them.

Your neighbours sound like ****. 

Why? Their car has been damaged by his bike. They have no way of knowing if it fell or was pushed. It's certainly not their fault, so why should they be out of pocket? It sucks, but unless the driver of the car/van/bus/whatever that knocked the bike over can be found and accepts liability, I think the OP is liable.

I am sure someone that actually understands liability in the eyes of insurers will be along shortly, but, here goes an amateur attempt that will no doubt (and perhaps rightly) get torn to shreds

Liability is:

bodily injury and property damage caused by you in the event of an accident.

For the neighbor to claim against you would necessitate them to point the finger at you for causing the damage. If you’re confident you didn’t, make that case.

I don’t really know how this plays out in the real world and to whom the burden of proof lies.

There will massive nuisance cards played on this and multiverse sized whataboutery wagers.

There will be blood.

doomaniac +1

It's not the OP's fault, but it is his liability on the public road.

Both bike & car have been damaged by an unknown 3rd party who has committed an offence by not giving their details after being involved a reportable accident.

The OP is not liable for anything and the car owners can claim in their own insurance or seek uninsured loss recovery.

Am I wrong? Am I right? **** me… about 40 days living in London left.

Start with your own insurer, they might steer you towards the MIB in certain circs
A few insurers won't touch your NCD but you can be held at fault if you can't supply offending driver details. Your neighbour is just following the law of the jungle, sadly you're on the rough end
https://www.finder.com/uk/car-insurance-hit-and-run

Start with your own insurer,

I'd start with someone else. If he says anything to his insurer that's a cost increase straight off the bat.

Awaits T&C bombardment...

Awaits T&C bombardment…

No T&Cs from me (although it is a T&C)

But I’m also not damn paying up for their bumper!?!

Guess where this goes next 😉

Did the OP fess up already?

If so, you've just screwed yourself and/or created a whole world of unnecessary pain.

If not, does neighbour have any witnesses that damage was caused by your bike?

Is your neighbours car fully comp? Or third party only?

How old is their car and/or what was it's condition before the damage?

My response to this is likely to vary based on above info...

Wow, some people struggle with the concept of liability and negligence.

Your bike did the damage....your responsibility.  Either pay for the repair yourself or put it through your insurance (your 3rd party insurance covers it, that's part of what it's for).

Wow, some people struggle with the concept of liability and negligence

Maybe you can enlighten us?
IMHO, the liability is questionable but there's nothing mentioned so far which suggests the OP has been negligent. It could be argued that the neighbour may have been negligent in not investing in fully comp/protected NCB insurance (and if they had such insurance, then they are golden).

Your bike did the damage….your responsibility. 

I would have agreed with you but something similar popped up on another thread which contradicted that...something to do with 'strict liability'. Anyway, that's why I think it's questionable but MCTD can clarify! 😉

Now… my bike is old and street battered. I’m pissed off, but not insured comprehensively…. BUT the neighbour (not a flooder) now says that they want to claim through my insurance because my bike hit their car!??!?!?! I’m loath to do that – I have years and years worth of no claims and will then have to declare it on my car insurance!! But I’m also not damn paying up for their bumper!?!

Can someone help me understand this idea. Surely they HAVE to claim off Thier insurance and it's up to the insurance company to sort it out.

Or can you genuinely just call them up and tell them to pay for damage to someone else's property.

IMHO, the liability is questionable but there’s nothing mentioned so far which suggests the OP has been negligent

He's not negligent.

It's just the liability you have when you store a private item on a road among other people's private items. If you don't want that liability/responsibility, then don't park your bike on the road.

This then is what insurance is for.

(I get there is a question of the hit and run party, but that doesn't remove OP's liability)

its certainly not negligence

As for liability?  I do not know 

So if I pick up a brick from your garden and hurl it through your neighbour's window, it's your liability for having bricks in your garden? What tommyrot.

There are two victims here. As there is no third party to claim against (because they ****ed off) it will be treated as an own-fault incident. Which is bullshit, but that's how it is.

the neighbour (not a flooder) now says that they want to claim through my insurance

That is not how insurance works. They claim through their own insurance and their insurers take it up with other insurers as appropriate.

Also,

I have years and years worth of no claims and will then have to declare it on my car insurance!!

What does your bike insurance have to do with your car insurance?

There's a fair bit I don't agree with, but some people have kind of got a handle on it.

For a successful claim against your policy, they have to show negligence. The incident itself occurring isn't enough to claim as a third party. If you haven't done anything wrong, there's no liability to third parties. Litigation is carried out under the tort of negligence - without any, no claim.   Classic example to illustrate is automatism - where say a driver, with no pre warning, no opportunity to stop or pull over, and with no known medical pre history, faints at the wheel and collides with third parties. Even if they hit a bus load of orphans, killing all on board, there's no "negligence", but a simple, genuine accident.

However, the matter is also under civil law, for which success is simply "on the balance of probability". (Rather than criminal which is "Beyond all reasonable doubt". So if they say you simply parked the bike badly, say without checking the kickstand is locked into place, or parking it on soft ground so the stand sinks in, and that is accepted as the most likely or probable event, by the Court (notionally), then you will lose.  So you need to consider what evidence you have to defend the matter.   But event itself, ie the bike colliding, is not in itself sufficient for them to make a successful claim.

Consider preparing a carful, detailed statement for your insurers, including say, How long was the bike parked? (If longer than a coupleof hours, was it really likely to fall over on its own?) Was it on soft or hard ground? - what side did it fall over (ie if the stand is on your left/port side, and and it fell to the right, it must have been agitated into that position, and it's more likely an unknown third party has caused this.) Is there damage to both sides to show it had been nudged over?  Is there evidence from doorbells in the street?  Where it's parked, is it off or on road and is it likely a third party could knock it over? Were there High winds and a motorcycle cover to blame?

You should declare the incident, because not telling your insurer achieves nothing, and potentially loses you some negotiating control - because as soon as the neighbours contact them, then theres an open claim anyway, and ncd is stepped back and it's noted fault (until proven otherwise).

Cougar is wrong, they are totally entitled to make a claim via your insurer - as a Third party claim, either directly or via an accident management company, rather than use their own insurer as a contractual insurer. If you';re disputing they may well use their own insurer, and let them dispute with yours.  Then their insurer will pay their bill and seek recovery, rather than simply seeking recovery directly from your insurer.

As your neighbours are insured, presumably comprehensively, the MIB will not deal with a simple vehicle damage claim from them.   The MIB is slightly  sarcasticallyknown as an "Insurer of last resort", ie it's there for specific circumstances.  Under the Untraced driver scheme, it will only deal with injury claims anyway, and thats what your claim is - the alleged wrongdower didnt stop, didnt exchange and didnt otherwise makethemselves known.  The uninsured driver scheme, where a driver is identified but uninsured, is irrelevent in this matter.

It doesnt matter whether it happeend on your drive, a private road, a public road, or even a car park or beach, as long as its' somewhere the public have access to, then under S151 & 152 of the Road Trafic Act, then your insurer is required to compensate,  *if* you are found liabile.

But at the end of the day - it's up to you to decide on the practical level, do you want to go to court? Do you think your evidence is better than theirs? Do you want the hassle of mardy neighbours? Because just because your bike hit their car, if it was knocked by an untraced motorist, you're as much a victim as they are.

"What does your bike insurance have to do with your car insurance?"

When insurance is renewed they ask have you had any accidents or claims?"   Not "have you had any accidents or claims with this vehicle?"

Just like accidents in a company car need to be declared when renewing private car insurance.

https://anthonyjones.com/declare-company-car-accident-personal-car-insurance/

So I would think any claim involving the motorbike will be a claim that needs to be declared to the car insurer.

Cougar is wrong, they are totally entitled to make a claim via your insurer

I may well be wrong but,

Directly? How?

You're obliged to give insurance details in the event of an injury, not because someone knocked your bike over. How would they know who to contact without first going through their own insurers?

What if we crossed out "motorbike" and wrote "wall"? X hits Y into Z, X sods off; how is that Y's problem?

You seem to know what you're talking about - far more than I - but you seem to have missed the point that someone else shunted the bike rather than it was just badly parked and fell over. Assuming the OP's account to be accurate, OFC.

When insurance is renewed they ask have you had any accidents or claims?” Not “have you had any accidents or claims with this vehicle?”

"Well, I had a burst pipe and needed my carpet replacing so made a claim."

Car insurance is different from bike insurance is different from house insurance is different from pet insurance. I've had all of those things, I didn't lose my no claims discount on my bike policy because my cat had been ill (and less flippantly, my decade's worth of NCD on the car didn't carry over when I bought my first bike).

It’s just the liability you have when you store a private item on a road among other people’s private items. If you don’t want that liability/responsibility, then don’t park your bike on the road.

Surely, that also applies to the car owner as well? Or was that the point you were making?

OP hasn't indicated one way or the other but one party has chosen to park pretty close to the other. So, one of the parties has taken a risk and could quite of easily said to themselves that the parking space is too tight and decided to park a "safer distance" away...

Was your bike found lying against their car ? <br /><br />
If it was then unless you can prove that another car hit your bike  and you have their details and they are insured, then you are going to have to pay up

Anyhow if the car driver has registered it with their insurance there will be an investigation regardless . I assume you passed on your insurance details, or discussed you paying directly for the damage

Unfortunately we live in a world where people don’t do the right thing ie driving away when hitting other vehicles or refusing to pay up if they damage another vehicle. Thats why vehicles with a number plate have to have insurance 😉

Am I wrong? Am I right? **** me…

Wrong unless you can get the insurance details of the person who hit you, and your bike was found lying against the car

But is car insurance different from bike insurance? Both are motor policies covering using and keeping a vehicle on the road.

This is STW there must be someone who works in insurance that can clarify.

Lexham Insurance think you do.

https://www.lexhaminsurance.co.uk/faqs/

Jujuu has it.

Car owner has to show that on the balance of probability that you were negligent. As described by the OP, what has he done wrong?

Directly? how?

You’re obliged to give insurance details in the event of an injury, not because someone knocked your bike over. How would they know who to contact without first going through their own insurers?

As long as you have a registration number of a third party, it’s very easy to find the details of their insurer. You go to the Motor Insurers Database, and pay a couple of quid for a search…

https://www.askmid.com/askmidenquiry.aspx

Then call them up and tell them you wish to make a claim off one of their insured.

I used this when someone reversed off his drive into my wife’s parked car, and refused to give his details as “he hated all these school run Mums”. One search later, and his insurer, LV, were most helpful in repairing our car.

I started to type out a mahoosive response to this. But I can't be arsed posting it. People on here who really don't know the answer, please refrain from piling in and sending the OP on various wild goose chases.

The includes the big hitters who should Google things rather than vomiting their opinions onto the screen.

OP - tell your insurer what's happened. See what they say.
Tell the third party to claim off their own policy.
It's not your problem to work out if you're liable for something. You pay for this cover so let the insurance sort it.

FWIW, here are some links for the hard of googling
MIB The Uninsured Drivers' Agreements and The Untraced Drivers' Agreements
https://www.mib.org.uk/making-a-claim/what-we-do/

Claiming from the other insurer directly:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/insurance/types-of-insurance/vehicle-insurance/vehicle-insurance-making-a-claim-if-you-re-in-an-accident/#:~:text=To%20make%20a%20claim%2C%20get,witness%20statements%20if%20you%20can.

Rich has it.

If it'd been your bin that had been knocked into their car by an unknown 3rd party, what would you/they do?

And was it actually on a road?

Sort of had this before. Actually became two cases which in effect may manifest itself as you(as bike owner which caused the damage) owe for the damaged car. It is most definitely not the owners fault and going through the insurance is the correct method.
You have a claim against who ever knocked your bike over. This may also allow a claim to compensate for the claim above. Bit like multiple shunts in a queue of traffic. You, at the front can't claim for the chap at the back who starts the domino effect.
Ultimately, this is why we insure. Ask your company.

Was the bike damaged by the car as it fell into it?

I sniff a counter-claim 🙂

Morally it doesn't seem like the OP did anything wrong, assuming he's told the whole truth. As for how insurance works it out, I have no idea. They will do what they will do.

Tell the third party to claim off their own policy.
It’s not your problem to work out if you’re liable for something.

This.

You pay for this cover so let the insurance sort it.

Not this.

The text in the link you provided is talking about uninsured loss. Ie, that which specifically is not covered by their own (ie, the neighbour's) insurance.

No?

For all your smugness, it's not clear to me how any of this is the OP's problem. An unknown third party booted an inanimate object into someone else's property causing damage. Where does his insurance come into it? As ITB says, what if it was a bin, would they be claiming against your own bin insurance?

But is car insurance different from bike insurance? Both are motor policies covering using and keeping a vehicle on the road.

It was when I had both. Neither recognised the other. That was some time ago however and things may have changed.

Meh, who's to say the neighbour didn't nudge your bike and it fell into their car, no witnesses, no way to prove liability, all you know is that the bike and car came together, how that happened is up to insurers to work out.

Insurance claims are the bane of the world these days, remember a few years back in a supermarket carpark i had a woman chase after me as i pulled out of a space, saying i'd clipped her car, the more you looked the more it didn't make sense (where the damage was, height, paint transfer 'anomalies', etc). It made a little more senes when she started saying how it was a garage loan and not her car, it's just a load of folk trying it on these days, bring back actual car bumpers that are cheap and cheerful!

For all your smugness,

Brilliant. 😁😁😁😁😁

Is this just in the road or do you have designated parking bays off the road?
Which was parked up first? If you had parked your bike before their car then you could argue they parked too close. Had they given you more room, there’s a good chance that your bike wouldn’t have hit their car when it fell over. Proving who parked first could be difficult?
If they were parked up first and you squeezed your bike Into a tight space then I think it’s on you to compensate.
I have absolutely no idea about the legalities of insurance but if it was me, I think it’s the angle I’d approach it.

Sorry OP you seem to be having some shitty luck at the minute, plus also; don't these things come in threes? maybe you should stay home for a couple of days, don't be walking under any ladders or pissing off black cats. 

Bad luck about the bike, but it's your bike, your problem to resolve I guess, contact your insurer and see what they say about it? At least the damage to the other car is minor, and shouldn't cost you too much when it comes time to re-new?

As argee said a couple of posts up, if there were no witnesses then... I can't believe that your neighbour drove in to your bike and has the audacity to make up this whole 3rd party story and blame you!

Or, contact your insurers. Be completely honest but don't admit fault (as you don't have any to admit as far as I see it). Given them your neighbour's car reg and let them deal with the neighbours insurance.

Now… my bike is old and street battered. I’m pissed off, but not insured comprehensively…. BUT the neighbour (not a flooder) now says that they want to claim through my insurance because my bike hit their car!??!?!?! I’m loath to do that – I have years and years worth of no claims and will then have to declare it on my car insurance!! But I’m also not damn paying up for their bumper!?!

Am I wrong? Am I right? **** me… about 40 days living in London left.

He can make a claim off you/your insurer.  Whether you/they have to pay it is a different matter.  BUT I'm pretty sure they are more likely to pay that if you don't alert them to the claim with your version of events first!  Avoiding telling them about potential claims has the potential for a policy to be cancelled too which will make your worries about NCD pale into insignificance.

OK thanks. Looks like it's going to cost me loads of money either way - I just hope it costs the neighbour loads of money on their insurance premium next year. I'm stone cold broke, so they'll just have to call their insurers and go through the process with them. I'm not talking to anyone about it until my insurer calls me.

I really am starting to find modern life unbearable in the last couple of years. I'm probably down 3-4000 quid to events completely out of my control, which I feel others should have paid for. It's also cost me days of time.

The bike was parked under a cover, locked to a tree and sits there all the time. There's absolutely no way it fell over on its own.

Last year I had someone drive directly into the back of my van whilst trying to undertake me at a set of traffic lights.  The driver was in a brand new BMW and had a scratched door and contacted my insurance company via his own. My insurer said that it was unclear whose liability it was - effectively they couldn't be bothered to argue about it as the claim was so little and went 50/50.

They then doubled my insurance premium the next year and have listed the accident on whatever new fangled database which insurers now use.

Anyway I'm heading out of London on January 3rd to a house in the middle of nowhere. Bring it on.

I’m probably down 3-4000 quid to events completely out of my control

How have you arrived at that figure?
Your insurance will pay out if needed - so just your excess now and a few years of slightly raised policy costs.
Your bike - is that how much damage there is?

I did years in one of the biggest insurance broker claims dept when i was younger.  Its been a long time but i would simplify this into the following.

Car owner has done zero wrong and any comments about them seem to be seriously unfounded and rather surprising coming on this site.  They came to their newish car to find its been damaged by the OP's motorbike.  OP has admitted his bike caused the damage and has in fact got damage to his bike which backs this up.  Stop with the suggestions its not his bike that caused it.  Thats just being tossers.

OP's bike has fallen onto this car either by some third party pushing it over, knocking it over or shockingly maybe it wasnt put on its stand correctly and it toppled over.  Whatever proof of how it toppled over is irrelevant.  It did and thats undisputed.  If he had proof of how it toppled it would then be for him to give it to his own insurers for them to pursue recovery of their costs, but he hasnt.

If the OP is so inclined he can refuse to give his insurance details but if i was the car owner my next call would be to the police to report someone damaging their car with their motorbike and refusing to share insurance details. 

OP has pointed out he cant/wont pay for the damage himself so it needs reported to his insurance company and for them to pay out.  Difficult to swallow but correct.

For all your smugness, it’s not clear to me how any of this is the OP’s problem. An unknown third party booted an inanimate object into someone else’s property causing damage. Where does his insurance come into it? As ITB says, what if it was a bin, would they be claiming against your own bin insurance?

In some widely predicted high winds someone in this street put their bin out and it blew over, and as well as strewing its contents across the street (which they didn't clear up!) it struck and scratched my neighbours car.  He claimed on his insurance who I believe claimed back from the bin owner's house insurance!  (He told me if they'd cleaned up the litter and simply apologised he'd just have paid to get the scratch fixed himself!)

But is car insurance different from bike insurance? Both are motor policies covering using and keeping a vehicle on the road.
It was when I had both. Neither recognised the other. That was some time ago however and things may have changed.

They may not recognise for no claims bonus purposes - but that is not a convention in the industry anyway.  Their question is probably "motoring related claims".  (FWIW I think the last time I completed a house insurance quote it wanted to know about ANY claim, motoring, holiday, house).

OK thanks. Looks like it’s going to cost me loads of money either way

I don't think its going to cost you loads of money, although it might cost you a small amount.

– I just hope it costs the neighbour loads of money on their insurance premium next year. I’m stone cold broke, so they’ll just have to call their insurers and go through the process with them.

There's a good chance it will, but i'm not sure being spiteful achieves much.  The person you really want to suffer/pay is the cock who knocked your bike over - putting your effort into finding doorbell or dashcam footage of that would be a better use of your (and the neighbour's) angst.

I’m not talking to anyone about it until my insurer calls me.

That seems like a really silly / petty mistake that IS likely to cost you more in the long run.  Pre-empt him by telling your insurer and I am sure they will be more likely to believe you / less likely to pay out.  If you've not already told him all your details, including your insurer, I'd go and do that now.  You have a legal obligation to do so.  If you do not, and don't tell the cops within 24 hrs then up here they will throw the book at you - I think some English forces seem to take the stance that if the insurers sort it out they won't get involved for minor shit like this, but I wouldn't take the chance because if your insurer won't payout you might get slapped with points and a fine for being obstinate.  Contrary to advice further up this thread you are required to provide your details to anyone who has reasonable cause to request them after a collision involving your vehicle, not just if there is an injury.

I really am starting to find modern life unbearable in the last couple of years. I’m probably down 3-4000 quid to events completely out of my control, which I feel others should have paid for. It’s also cost me days of time.

Events outside your control that cost you money are exactly what you pay for insurance for.  Don't make life harder for yourself by pissing off your insurers.

The bike was parked under a cover, locked to a tree and sits there all the time. There’s absolutely no way it fell over on its own.

So tell this to your insurer.  Include details about the stand (which side, in place or not in place when you found it) etc.  They might believe you.   Now if the other driver comes forward (the other reason you should report to the police as its just vaguely possible they've reported it!) and says the didn't see your bike because all its reflectors were obscured by the cover - that might make an interesting test case...

How have you arrived at that figure?
Your insurance will pay out if needed – so just your excess now and a few years of slightly raised policy costs.
Your bike – is that how much damage there is?

Not even the excess - no excess on a 3rd party claim.

I really am starting to find modern life unbearable in the last couple of years. I’m probably down 3-4000 quid to events completely out of my control, which I feel others should have paid for. It’s also cost me days of time.

Events outside your control that cost you money are exactly what you pay for insurance for.  Don’t make life harder for yourself by pissing off your insurers.\

Every time you make a claim or let an insurer know you have been involved in an "accident" then you are penalised for it the following year - it often means when the damage is 300-400 quid that it's worth just paying up regardless of if you are at all liable or did anything wrong whatsoever. That's at least about 2-3 days work for me after tax which is quite a lot of money, but like I said... you just have to shrug your shoulders.

There's also probably a couple of hundred quids worth of damage to my bike to pay for. So this incident will probably have cost me at least £500 at a minimum, not taking into account that a dented tank and whatever else means the bike will be worth less.

Would this scenario not fall  under something similar to a multi car accident. Your bike was hit by another vehicle, which then hit your neighbours car?

Multiple Cars Accidents | Who Is Responsible In Multi Car Accidents? (sds-solicitors.com)

No neighbours in the vicinity with cctv of any kind ?.

I did years in one of the biggest insurance broker claims dept when i was younger.
...
If the OP is so inclined he can refuse to give his insurance details but if i was the car owner my next call would be to the police to report someone damaging their car with their motorbike and refusing to share insurance details.

The OP is not obliged to share his insurance details unless there's been an injury.

I've been involved in several collisions in the 30-odd years I've been driving. Not once have I either asked for or been asked for insurance details. I talk to my insurer, they talk to their insurer, the insurers work it out and talk to each other.

Contrary to advice further up this thread you are required to provide your details to anyone who has reasonable cause to request them after a collision involving your vehicle, not just if there is an injury.

Correct. "Your details" being your name and contact information.

Events outside your control that cost you money are exactly what you pay for insurance for.

Conversely, events outside of their control that cost them money are exactly what the OP's neighbour pays for insurance for.

Again: If it had been something other than a bike that had been knocked into the neighbour's car, would everyone be talking about the NCD on the OP's wheelie bin insurance? With reference to the "multi-vehicle" link a couple of posts back: there is no driver, it's a static object. The notion that he'd be culpable when he was in bed at the time is ludicrous, unless he'd parked it dangerously or some such.