[Closed] Are you patriotic?

^^^

Jesus ads678, are you stalking me? Have you taken over my mind....

HIgh five Dannyh!!

There was a time, around Euro 96, where there was tentatively emerging a more open, multicultural, inclusive, forward-looking ‘British’ identity that didn’t revolve around the knuckle-dragging ‘2 world wars and a world cup’ and images of Spitfires and endlessly banging on about ‘the Spirit of the Blitz’.

Is that just exactly the same thing?

When you were young (in '96) the middle aged grownups were still reminiscing about the Blitz Spirit whilst you got on with doing industrial quantities of E and wizz at the Hacienda and Wiggan Pier. Everything seemed to be going on the up (until Monday morning anyway when you had to deal with the comedown).

Now you're the middle aged one moaning about how things were better in your day.

I’m not patriotic in the least. Each to their own, but personally I find the whole concept weird.

My feelings are similar to the OP in respect of me being patriotic. Whilst I'm definitely privileged to be born in Britain, that doesn't necessarily make me patriotic. In the same way if I was born in North Korea, Italy or Somalia would I be as proud?
There are elements of this country I admire: The countryside, the history but I don't feel that qualifies patriotism. That said. Having travelled much of Europe and beyond there's not many countries I'd rather live. Britain feels just like home.

I’d like England to win the world cup

You see. Stumbling block no.1.
We don't have a national team.
We have 4 nations teams and various islands and dependencies who we ignore with such things.

I'm comfortable being Scottish, but for me that has far more to do with some sense of ethnic identity, history and culture, than any cheerleading for a nation-state. I've got a reasonably good grasp of both the highlights of our collective endeavours; for a small chunk of the world, we've made some fairly life-changing contributions, and some of the less-savoury aspects of our involvement in world affairs. I find the 'tartan tourism' aspects of our current identity a bit cringy, but if it parts affluent Americans from their siller, then I can live with that.
Far from being peculiar, I'd argue that having some sense of 'rootedness' is vital for human wellbeing, and only becomes problematic when it manifests in toxic ways and seeks to diminish 'the other' - but that's a problem at an individual, as much as a collective, level.

When you were young (in ’96) the middle aged grownups were still reminiscing about the Blitz Spirit whilst you got on with doing industrial quantities of E and wizz at the Hacienda and Wiggan Pier. Everything seemed to be going on the up (until Monday morning anyway when you had to deal with the comedown).

Now you’re the middle aged one moaning about how things were better in your day.

While that is indeed a valid consideration - I was ripped to the tits on weapons-grade MDMA for most, well... actually all of the 90's, You didn't have this undercurrent of really unpleasant Nationalism and English exceptionalism then. I reckon if you'd have had the Brexit vote in 1997 when Blair had just been elected, it'd have been remain easily.

It's in the last 10-15 years that there has been a resurgence of nationalism as a reaction to globalisation and the flag-waving has been increasingly encouraged, with Farage and UKIP blaming the EU and bloody immigrants for everything and whipping up a ridiculous wartime myth of plucky old Engerland. Nobody was listening to those idiots back then. Now they're setting the political agenda and the Governement front bench might as well be a row of 20 Farages

Are you patriotic?

Nope. I just don't wish to give one side or the other more power.

I wouldn't fly a flag or any of that nonsense, and am pretty ashamed of our exploits in India, Ireland etc but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a surge of pride when I hear I Vow to Thee My Country or Jerusalem.

Whereas when I hear that kind of overblown nationalist claptrap, normally being sung by a bunch of rugger buggers at Twickenham, it pretty much sums up everything that's wrong with this country for me

Not for anything more than to pay a tribute to a rapidly dwindling generation of people that gave something or everything.

I shall raise a glass in memory of my mum and dad who experienced WWII from opposing sides.

At the moment I'm more proud of being right handed than English/British.

At the moment I’m more proud of being right handed

I am moderately proud of being left handed. for some reason.

Jerusalem has a perfectly good tune, but the lyrics are a series of questions, the answer to each being 'no'.

And did those feet in ancient times walk upon England's mountains green? Er, no.

And was the holy lamb of god On England's pleasant pastures seen? Again, no.

And did the countenance divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? Nope.

And was Jerusalem builded here Among these dark satanic mills? Oh for goodness' sake, no.

binners
Subscriber

Whereas when I hear that kind of overblown nationalist claptrap, normally being sung by a bunch of rugger buggers at Twickenham, it pretty much sums up everything that’s wrong with this country for me

And ironically your sneering, snobbish post sums it up for me.

Technically it’s inverse snobbery, but yes, it is indeed unapologetically sneering. But then my family ended up in this country due to the activities of the English in Ireland. You know... the ones you just said you were ashamed of?

But equilibrium has been restored to the forum

God save the queen

You didn’t have this undercurrent of really unpleasant Nationalism and English exceptionalism then. I reckon if you’d have had the Brexit vote in 1997 when Blair had just been elected, it’d have been remain easily.

It’s in the last 10-15 years that there has been a resurgence of nationalism as a reaction to globalisation and the flag-waving has been increasingly encouraged, with Farage and UKIP blaming the EU and bloody immigrants for everything and whipping up a ridiculous wartime myth of plucky old Engerland. Nobody was listening to those idiots back then. Now they’re setting the political agenda and the Governement front bench might as well be a row of 20 Farages

Really? Not remember the riots in Bradford and Burnley? 2001 granted but BNP were on the up and up even in the 90s.

They were still a fringe party who represented a racist hardcore though.

The views they espoused are now largely mainstream and are shared by the party of government.

From 1997 onwards the UK elected 3 successive labour governments that championed multiculturalism, was pro EU and pro-immigration. In 2019 they elected a party that had abandoned dog-whistle racism in favour of straightforward unapologetic racism.

That’s a big shift

I don’t think that what this country represents in 2020 is something anyone should feel any pride in. It’s frankly embarrassing

I don’t think that what this country represents in 2020 is something anyone should feel any pride in. It’s frankly embarrassing

It's hilarious the extent to which these idiots don't understand that the rest of Europe thinks we're a pathetic, arrogant and incompetent laughing stock. It's like parents having a good giggle at their 5 year old having a tantrum.

binners
Subscriber

Technically it’s inverse snobbery, but yes, it is indeed unapologetically sneering. But then my family ended up in this country due to the activities of the English in Ireland. You know… the ones you just said you were ashamed of?

But equilibrium has been restored to the forum

God save the queen

Okay so something that happened long before I was born means I can't be proud to live in a place where :

-almost every single one of probably 20 passing cyclists (including the sourfaced roadies) asked if I needed help when I got a puncture earlier

-where we have to apply to the council to get extra hi-vis when we organised a volunteer litter pick because so many people applied to give their time for free

-where when a family member tripped up in town and smacked her face in, a bunch of randoms came over and immediately began to help her, took her into a shop, cleaned her up and give her a cuppa, then somebody else even went massively out of their way to drive her to the walk-in doctors, waited with her then took her home, then wouldn't take any petrol money

-where a huddle of little old ladies we didn't know gave my little girl a round of applause when she managed to ride her bike without stabilisers for the first time.

-where a neighbour I've never met sees me struggling to chop some branches off a tree in my garden with a worn out saw and brings me his electric saw to use

But no, you're right. Nothing to be proud of. I mean for goodness sake, some of those people probably voted Tory or heaven forbid, spoke with a posh accent therefore are subhuman scum to be derided.

Grammar Nazi as well, always the mark of a top mind.

It's heaven forfend.  

😉

So all those things you’ve listed clearly wouldn’t have happened anywhere else?

Those things happened because those people are decent human beings, not because of some geographical accident. Decent human behaviour isn’t constrained by national borders.

Ironically, seeing as you introduced irony into proceedings, what you’re doing is highlighting the problem with this particular strain of nationalism...

English exceptionalism

This thread really is designed for remoaners to vent their spleens.Again.
How many of you will be booking your ferry or flights when lockdown is over to head off to your vision of utopia ?

Hi Nigel! We’ve been expecting you.

Cheers!

I'm content with being scottish. Not happy, sad, proud, anything like that, it's just a decent enough nationality to be, better than some, not as bad as others.

Greene King? He can keep it, it's shite.

It's English Exceptionalism that got us into the coronavirus mess were in now. We thought we could beat the bug through birth right .

Patriotism is a weakness

I have a British and an irish passport, it's a piece of paper that makes my life easier. See no point renewing the British one anymore.

As for VE day, why would i celebrate relatives being buried in Calais and Alexandria? We have a day set aside in November to remember the dead.

I agree with most of what's been said

Patriotism just seems so unnecessary to me

I also think that the lyrics to Jeruselum are absurd, how can anyone sing that & take it seriously? It's a pleasant enough tune, if a bit dull, but it's rousing enough, but really, they lyrics are just daft!

I suppose I'm just what The Maybot would call a proud citizen of nowhere (& everywhere)

Nationalism continues to make everything brilliant!

Never mind what he's drinking, did you notice the Danish brand name on the flag of that Palestinian guy Saint George?

binners

So all those things you’ve listed clearly wouldn’t have happened anywhere else?

Those things happened because those people are decent human beings, not because of some geographical accident. Decent human behaviour isn’t constrained by national borders.

Having travelled a reasonable amount, yes absolutely, there are plenty of places where people would rather walk on by than help. I could give numerous examples for France for instance.
Another example of this is that the UK is ranked as one of the most generous countries in Europe at giving money to charity and helping people.

Ironically, seeing as you introduced irony into proceedings, what you’re doing is highlighting the problem with this particular strain of nationalism…
English exceptionalism

More like you're highlighting the fact you're a sneering misog with a chip the size of Madagascar on your shoulder.

scotroutes
Subscriber

It’s heaven forfend.

Noted 😉

Maybe it’s my inferior genes? Being descended from immigrants and all that?

Obviously people possessed of your superior and racially pure Engerlish heritage are just predisposed to better character traits.

Maybe I should go back to where I came from, massa?

*doffs cap*

Land of Hope and Glooooooory......

I suppose it must be difficult in the UK, given we have the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh, and of course the English, all of whom are distinctly different and have different languages.
So do you lay allegiance to the part of the country you were born, or to the part your forebears are from.
I was born in England, to Scottish parents of Irish grandparents and had a bedsit in north Wales for 3 months.

Confusing 😕

I’ve never understood patriotism, it gives me the heebie jeebies. Flag waving, singing and all that just because you were born somewhere. I do think Scotland is a spectacularly beautiful country and I’m lucky to be here though. The UK in general has some awesome spots. So do lots of other places though.

I identify as Irish but have spent a lot more time in the UK and my best friends are all British and Anglo-Irish. I have 2 passports but ultimately my culture is closer to Ireland. Amongst my British friends we tend not to push each other’s nationalism beyond friendly banter or we’d probably fall out.

binners
Subscriber

Maybe it’s my inferior genes? Being descended from immigrants?

Obviously people possessed of your superior heritage are just predisposed to better character traits

Maybe I should go back to where I came from, massa?

*doffs cap*

Ah, so I'm a xenophobe now because I'm proud of how kind people in the UK are. Cool.

There's a very unpleasant side to this forum sometimes.

I could give numerous examples for France for instance.

Go to any inner city bit of England or estate and people will sooner tell you to f*** off or beat the shit out of you than ask if you need any help. It's the same everywhere.

one of the most generous countries in Europe at giving money to charity and helping people.

FFS that's because most other european countries pay enough tax to pay for public services which makes charity redundant. The current shitshow of 99 year old war veterans having to raise money for the NHS being a classic example. You're taking in pride in us being a cut-throat selfish society which prizes individualism over common well-being.

I think national borders are a bit of an anachronism in these global times. I certainly think there are many countries just over the water to the East who have their shit together very much more than we do.

Had a look at what’s going on politically in Hungary and Poland at the moment, not to mention the USA, Brazil...

binners
Subscriber

We get what you’re saying load and clear. The English … gaaaawd bless ‘em… are the finest people on the planet

Thanks for putting us all straight

You're a nasty bullying little shit Binners.

For the record I'm 50% Welsh, my parents were both from poor working class families (LLandudno on one side, Romford on the other), I voted and did my best to convince friends and family to Remain and voted Labour, Labour, Labour, Lib Dem in the last 4 elections.

But sure, whatever you say. You win, England and the UK are shit and I'm a racist.

dazh

FFS that’s because most other european countries pay enough tax to pay for public services which makes charity redundant. The current shitshow of 99 year old war veterans having to raise money for the NHS being a classic example. You’re taking in pride in us being a cut-throat selfish society which prizes individualism over common well-being.

Interesting then that the UK is one of only five or six nations in the world that meet the 0.7% foreign aid target. "Oh but that's just bribes", save it. I don't care enough to argue. England bad. Farage. Football. Rugger buggers. I don't care anymore.

Secondly the majority of examples I gave were to do with people volunteering their time or simply being nice. The index I linked is a combination of both charity and helping people directly if you bothered to read it.

Finally the veteran didn't HAVE to raise money for the NHS, but he chose to. Frankly an Olympic level bit of mental gymnastics to turn that into a negative.

I don't really spend much time wondering if I am patriotic or not if I'm honest. I know like most countries we have a lot of good and bad in the locker, and most ardent patriotic folk I meet are just bell ends.

I have got a Union Jack flag and some bunting attached to the house for VE day though, and my youngest has drawn some stuff etc I don't see this as patriotic but as an ex-squaddie I just see it as a mark of respect to a lot of normal people who died either fighting or just victims of war. I probably over reflect on the fact I ended up in the army as I was a bit off the rails when I was younger, and never really ended up spending to much time wondering if being in Iraq was right or wrong, I just wanted to get home and was lucky enough to do that.

So let me get this right....

I’m ‘a nasty bullying little shit’ because I take offence at you feeling pride in what is essentially a celebration of English colonialism and exceptionalism?

If that’s what you think, then I sincerely apologise, because that’s not my intention at all.

I’m just a bit baffled

If your background is what you say then I’m even more astounded you’d take any pride in any of that colonial nonsense. I’m truly mystified

Because, for me, it’s gazing back to this specifically English imperialist superior, exceptionalist claptrap that’s the cause of most of the problems we’ve got in this country at the moment. Farage and his cronies have spent years wrapping themselves in Union jacks with all this shit, and look where it’s got us

Anyone else remember plaid cymru election campaign (back in the 80's) saying you just needed to love Wales to join/vote for them, seems reasonable enough to me 👍

Apart from a bit of French input from 1805, I'm pretty much English through and through back to the 1700's, family name seemly from an old Roman Road running through Colchester, but the most patriotic feeling I can raise is ultimately any world Cup will end in disappointment. However I do love where I live, am disappointed by the GE election & brexit vote but hey around half the people I happen to bump into in UK should be sound enough.

Edited because I'm drunk

Sometimes I wish I had read a wider selection of posts other than cutting from OP to reply 🤗

Sometimes I wish I had read a wider selection of posts other than cutting from OP to reply 🤗

Let me tell you it really wasn't worth the effort

As a Northumbrian tribe we have been brutalised, suppressed and utilised for over a 1000 years starting with Hadrian (the Roman bloke) to good old Maggie Thatcher- so if anyone expects me to be a patriot they can jog on.

This "country" has abused its subjects for centuries in the name of Empire and King/Queen. They can take their Union Jack and the cross of St George and put it where the sun dont shine.

Brexit made me question a fair few things about the country and about myself.

I'm proud (yeah, that word will do) of what the UK can achieve when it's pointed in the right direction.

So currently I am anything but proud. I currently see the union Jack as a symbol of many things I dislike intensely. The flag and the country have been hijacked.

I would say that overall it feels deeply sad to be British (English) at the moment for me.

Didn’t someone once say that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel?
FWIW, I’m not particularly ’patriotic’, however there are things about my country that I’m quietly proud of, along with parts of its history that are not so wonderful.
@oldmanmtb2 - if living here is so loathsome, why haven’t you moved somewhere else, the Scottish border is only a few miles north, for example...
...or have Pictish raiders left a nasty taste in your mouth as well?

if living here is so loathsome, why haven’t you moved somewhere else, the Scottish border is only a few miles north, for example…

The weather in the main.😁

Secondly, it still doesn't escape the Brexit s*it show.

Haven't read through this (but have been around long enough to accurately second guess how it's gone).

I'm 50% English, 50% Scots for what that matters.

I have no patriotism for either country based on political borders, and my ideal world would be one without such things (which, however unrealistic, is part of the reason why the 'B' word hurts me so much).

I do, however, feel massive links with the cultural past of both my ancestral nations (and I use the word nation rather than country quite deliberately). I have been shaped more by that than by the relatively fleeting political constructs that have governed them.

The whole VE thing makes me feel a little uneasy, but I'm living happily with the fact I'm probably an outlier in that...

colournoise

I do, however, feel massive links with the cultural past of both my ancestral nations (and I use the word nation rather than country quite deliberately). I have been shaped more by that than by the relatively fleeting political constructs that have governed them.

Beautifully put and I know what you mean by that.

I'm not overly patriotic, but being exforces and from a forces family with people who served in the wars I will remember them today (not celebrate) because I think its nice to show a little bit of appreciation. I don't think this makes me a racist because that couldn't be further from the truth. I've traveled the world massively and think the UK isn't so bad compared to some. Some of the posts above appear very bitter and angry towards the uk,I know it's going through a rough time, but there is definitely worse places to be. Maybe I'm in a bubble in the southwest but the rasism and nationalism spoken of above I don't really see here.

I'm massively in awe of those that were sent to their deaths, and will remember them today.

But Churchills victory speech? Not for me that.

The whole VE thing makes me feel a little uneasy

If you don't let it be captured by Nationalists, then of all the Victory over fascism celebrations; VE day is perhaps one of the better ones. Once the Allies get out of Normandy and started racing across to Germany it became very much a world effort, for goodness sake even the Brazilians had joined the fun, and it all happens so fast. By April we're stumbling across the death camps, In early May Mussolini is dead, Hitler shots himself, Berlin Falls, Denmark and Norway are liberated, Goering surrenders...and then Jodl and Keitel sue for unconditional peace. It's should be a celebration of "what we ALL did in the war" Celebrate the fact that the Czech uprising happened, celebrate that the German Wehrmacht and US forces held off the Nazis together at Castle Itter

Celebrate it for the fact that the world came together to destroy the Nazis, it was perhaps one of the very few moral wars this country's ever been involved in.

Then after you've raised a pint to those old boys still KBO-ing, remember that we hadn't finished quite just yet...

If you don’t let it be captured by Nationalists, then of all the Victory over fascism celebrations; VE day is perhaps one of the better ones.

Absolutely, but the killer word is 'if'.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if somewhere in this little country today a mountain bike rider is upbraided simply for being there along the lines of "it is disrespectful, we wouldn't have won the war with people like you around".

Hijacking the past to score petty points is the stock in trade of the boomers, after all.

If you don’t let it be captured by Nationalists, then of all the Victory over fascism celebrations; VE day is perhaps one of the better ones.

I think this sums up my position. I'm prepared to say I'm "patriotic", I'm proud of some of the things Britain has done and achieved going back through history and in more modern times.

But I'm not blinkered about some of the shameful acts that have gone alongside that, whether committed through greed, cowardice, misplaced sense of superiority or simple ignorance of the wrong being done due to the social standards of the day.

I hate the way events like this get jumped on by flag waving neo-nationalists to try and justify some divine English right to greatness though.

I have a hard time separating patriotism and nationalism.

It all just looks like the same bullshit happy clapping, backward facing jingoism to me, with one being the meaner, nastier cousin to the other.

I'm English, but its just where I was born.

Ive met too many ****s in all of the UK nations to be proud of identifing with any of them just because they come from the same place. Its just tribalism on a grander scale.

An interesting article by Zoe Williams on patriotism and nationalism

And she’s nailed what makes me and many others feel very uncomfortable about all the Churchill/Vera Lynn flag-waving.

That it all feels like it’s being cynically contrived as part of the ongoing Brexit-related culture war, which has a lot of deeply unpleasant nationalist undertones to it.

Patriotism is the age old divider. Being from NI and growing up through our wee 'problem' has stripped me of any sense of local or national pride.

My other half is eastern European and despite the countries many flaws, she is very proud as they actually got rid of an real oppressor and build a country from the ground up. The UK would probably end up nuking itself if it had to put in that kinda hard work.

Plus, lets be frank. Like in the US, patriotism is used as a form of brain washing and public suppression. It's just like in the days when you'd be an out cast fir not going to church.

My sense of pride is with my family and friends as they're what matters. Not the white cliffs of dover or some battle that happened 400 years ago.

The current shitshow of 99 year old war veterans having to raise money for the NHS being a classic example.

A classic example of raising money for charities of the NHS not the NHS.

Having been a participant in the 2012 Olympic Opening Ceremony, to me that was peak "UK" and from then on, particularly with Brexit it's just been a rise in jingoistic, divisive nationalism dressed-up as "patriotism". I'm part Scottish, part English and a little bit Afro-Caribbean, have lived in England for over 30 years but we're in the process of selling our house and moving to Scotland. Even my wife who is 100% English wants to leave.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".

All that's been demonstrated here is that people anchor their views and values on different perceptions of society and history. be that due to their favoured source of current affairs, historical context, character, personal experience etc. Fundamentally though, you probably need a cup of tea and a moment of reflection if you're hating on Britain with other British people, via the medium of a British invention while residing in Britain. There is half a globes worth of people who would swap places with you in heartbeat, and many die trying.

Personally I don't mind the VE and it's poor relation, the VJ celebrations. If you're going to have a founding myth for the New Elizabethan era, then frankly the 2nd World War is as good as any. We came together across the world and  fought and defeated fascism, as founding myths go, it's a pretty good one. Even the "marxist" revisionist historians of the 70s couldn't really do anything more than frame it as a class struggle, and still have to conclude that yeah; we did a good thing.

The objection I have is that I just wish folk would actually read some actual history of the period rather than rely on hand-me-down "Truths". Hey ho though, that seems unlikely. Like my Grandparents generation (who actually fought in it) my children aren't really that bothered by it all. Perhaps there's the actual lesson, right there.

A globes worth of people who would swap places with you in a heartbeat

And how would those people be received when they got here? Do you not get the contradiction at the heart of this?

Marking those who made the ultimate sacrifice while at the same time cutting our ties with our continental neighbours and deliberately creating a ‘hostile environment’ for immigrants and refugees? Where we deport the Windrush generation now that they’ve served their purpose?

My grandad was the son of Irish immigrants, here fleeing famine, but served as a Royal Marine Commando in Burma where he must have endured unimaginable horror. How would his parents be ‘welcomed’ now?

I think he’d be absolutely appalled at the present state of this country and the face it presents to the world with a cruel, uncaring populist administration wrapping itself in flags

Used to be, and still am for sport but these days I'm more embarrassed to be British. I hate what it's become. I hate our press. I hate our politics. We could and should be so much better and it makes me sad.

@kula72 - ah, I see you're practicing the old social engineering tricks. I work hard and contribute to this 'society' and can criticise the flaws I see.

The whole whataboutery is weak.

I know like most countries we have a lot of good and bad in the locker, and most ardent patriotic folk I meet are just bell ends.

This.

My grandfather took home shrapnel and a lifetime of undiagnosed PTSD from WW2 and D-Day. But throughout his adult life he was quite vocally un-patriotic (n some ways a Europhile)

Yet his children’s generation seem to have hijacked his contribution and woven it into something else to suit their ends. ie ‘Brexit’. Which from what I’ve witnessed is like an unthinking Nationalist/exceptionalist pseudo-religion that employs ‘patriotism’ as a recruiting agent.

As it stands Right Here Right Now, I see the ardent patriot as a blind tool in the social-engineer’s box, creating their own slit-lens mythos/worldview by rubbing up against other tools for feels over reals. In this, they do always seem to overly-regard both the box, and the hardship.

Just my experience of it. ymmv. ‘Exceptionalism’ seems to be both equally true and false at the same time. Open the box and you’ll find out why Schrödinger was simultaneously Austrian and Irish.

Wish I was as patriotic as this guy...

https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1258685970360291329?s=20

Fundamentally though, you probably need a cup of tea and a moment of reflection if you’re hating on Britain with other British people, via the medium of a British invention while residing in Britain. There is half a globes worth of people who would swap places with you in heartbeat, and many die trying.

Fundamentally though.... that's an irrelevant non-sequitur and thus, in the context of this discussion, bollocks.

There is half a globes worth of people who would swap places with you in heartbeat, and many die trying.

yet because  thier understating of Britishness is our kindness to give away our tax deduction to them as a a free handout while out medical citizen colleagues suffer with inadequate supplies during a national crisis?   Give over, of course they would.

This thread has become depressing c/w insults and multiple examples of attempted points scoring.
Why the bile? It's unnecessary and inappropriate.
As for me, it's a day of quiet and personal reflection.
A huge number of very good people gave their lives to defeat what was seen as a great evil and to remove a threat to our future safety.
I doubt they would be impressed by petty squabbling.

What people are pointing out is that their sacrifice has been hijacked by tinpot little fascists like Farage, who are presently using it to pursue an agenda that is the polar opposite of what those people fought for.

They also fought for the right for people to point uncomfortable facts like that out without having supposed patriotism, or lack of it, used as a stick to best them with and shut down the alternative point of view

A huge number of very good people gave their lives to defeat what was seen as a great evil and to remove a threat to our future safety.
I doubt they would be impressed by petty squabbling.

Sure, and lest we forget that is what Remembrance Day is, and should be for.

The basic argument this is turned to is, should we be returning to, repeating and celebrating the quintessential definition of Britishness as it was in the late 1940's today?   It was built on colonialism, monarchism, power and arrogance, many traits we modern brits are continually accused and reminded of despite the fact that although The Establishment try to pretend we remain to be perceived that way, we are currently actually perceived as the bumbling failure of the very European culture we helped to shape.

As above, I love the great things we've done well, have come to learn that a lot of them were built on the skeletons of our prior colonies, and now although of proud of our Olympic, medical an other national heroes am under no illusion we are but an averagely successful middle tier multicultural nation.

This thread has become depressing c/w insults and multiple examples of attempted points scoring

Agreed so with that.