[Closed] Are we getting far too over-sensitive about 'racial' issues?

No one is willing to say there is a problem as they fear being branded racist or stirring up trouble.

It said on the BBC news last night words to the effect of - a disproportionate number of abuse cases are committed by Asian men.

It also said, the abuse was reported to the police as far back as 2008.

Multiple issues including failures of several parties.

The "expert" interviewed on R4 last night was making the point that this was not a racial problem as there are plenty of other cases where the racial mix of offender and victim is different. Could well be true - have to assume she knows what she is talking about. But in this specific case the race and nationality of both the offenders and the victims is consistent so one must assume this is not accidental and in this specific case race played a part. Not sure it teaches us much about society in general though or "lessons to be learnt" if the interviewee is correct. The bigger picture is men still praying on vulnerable girls which is worrying irrespective of race.

As all of these men come from different countries (****stan and Afghanistan), I'm all for ejecting them once their term is served.

All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. [b]This is patent nonsense[/b] to anyone who's got anything between their ears. And its incredibly patronising to try and close down discussion in this way. This is obviously a complex issue and needs open discussion. Which 'the authorities' seem to be doing everything to avoid

So, you know all the facts, do you? I mean, [i]clearly[/i] this is just a big conspiracy by the Leftist police to deny any racial issues, and no-one can see it but you.

Except that the Chief Constable of the area said last night (I saw the interview) that there were several other investigations of a very similar nature going on right now, in the same area....and the men concerned in that case were [i]not[/i] of Asian origin.

You're right to say that there needs to be an open discussion. But I don't think your opening point shows a particularly open mind.

I was listening to some experts (and the Police? spokesperson) on R4 last night - not sure if same as above.

The point being made was that the [i]ethnicity of the perpetrators[/i] was not an issue in this case, and therefore no racial implications.

But surely, the ethnicity of the victims does make it an issue?

The bigger picture is men still praying on vulnerable girls which is worrying irrespective of race.

I'm sure all agree

No one is willing to say there is a problem as they fear being branded racist or stirring up trouble.

It said on the BBC news last night words to the effect of - a disproportionate number of abuse cases are committed by Asian men.

These two statements contradict each other.

Is it racism or cultural differences?

Ok maybe a bit of a generalisation on my part, but Asian culture keeps very close tabs on girls and what they are doing at all times (rightly or wrongly).

You could argue that many white girls go out, do what they want when they want, and because Asian men want sex, they see white girls as an easier catch than Asian girls.

Maybe if white girls parents took a bit more interest in the where abouts of their daughters?

Yes I know big sweeping statements etc...

What percentage of UK population is ****stani?

What percentage of the UK population is classed as Paedophile?

The media reported that 80% of the UK Paedophiles are white however proportionality.......

I'll leave that there for you all to chew over...

Except that the Chief Constable of the area said last night (I saw the interview) that there were several other investigations of a very similar nature going on right now, in the same area....and the men concerned in that case were not of Asian origin.

err, in the previous sentence, Binners has made it clear is is talking about the clear racial element to...

this case

...so not the other cases currently ongoing.

I think it also raises issues about the same people who are no doubt baying for blood on the streets of Heywood. The oposite side of the racial spectrum, if you like. Which are also not being discussed.

Namely, WTF are 13 year old girls doing out until all hours, taking drugs and drinking, while being ferried around from town to town? And how can you take so little notice of your children that you wouldn't notice the effects of systemic sexual abuse over a sustained period?

I think that's one area the white community may need to take a look at too

You could argue that many white girls go out, do what they want when they want, and because Asian men want sex, they see white girls as an easier catch than Asian girls.

The police spokesman on R4 this morning suggested exactly that.

Maybe if white girls parents took a bit more interest in the where abouts of their daughters?

dear me

I'm sure all agree

Absolutely. And while the ethnicity of the perpetrators may or may not play a part (I don't know all the facts and therefore am in no position to judge), I'd hate the fact that this is an ongoing child abuse issue to be overshadowed by yet another let's-have-a-go-about-race in the small papers.

Maybe if white girls parents took a bit more interest in the where abouts of their daughters?

You know, that'd be asking for people to be responsible parents.

dear me

Well the police spokesman suggested something similar (not quite in those terms) - but I guess you know better?

This a problem that exists where cultural values clash. It's not 'racist' per se.

If parents of all cultures in our communities took greater responsibility for the social education of their children including the need for greater respect from and to all parties then we'd be far better off as a society.

The cycnic in me says, that most xxxisms tend only to work unilaterally. An alternative side makes me ask why. Most xxxisms were a reaction to discrimination against the relevant xxx ie, race, sex, age etc. In that sense a positive discrimination or bias is understandable (albeit philosophers will still debate its logic). But as societies make progress in addressing discrimination and bias, then surely a balance is needed with all sides treated fairly. So racism/sexism is truly eradicated when the need to add a racial/sexual adjective simply becomes unnecessary. Clearly we have a long way to go here (sadly)!

Failure to do that, merely feeds cynicism and ultimately back fires on those who are being discriminated against and/or leads to a failure to tackle abuse in the alternative direction as is [u]perhaps[/u] the case here.

The intriguing sub-plot is whether cultural/racial tolerance actually condones other forms of discrimination (eg sexual) and how that should be addressed.

I question if it should be regarded as racism - it is their religious views that make them regard "white girls are worthless and can be abused", nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.

Could it not be construed as a religious 'hate' crime?

From my observation, having been raised in a country that has (mostly) genuinely embraced multiculturalism, I think that British people don't really understand concepts of race and racism, racial politics, biculturalism, multiculturalism etc.

Which is odd given the ethnic/racial/cultural mix of many big cities.

I blame the education system, and Thatcher of course.

These guys are just creeps, but as this is such a segregated society, their creepy friends are of the same ethnic group.

I am over sensitive to grammatical issues. Too sensitive, or over-sensitive. Using both is tautological.

"These guys a re just creeps, but as this is such a segregated society, their friends are of the same group."

Thats part of the problem itself. Politicians / do gooders constantly say how multi cultural the UK is, as though we all get on as one big happy family. The reality is that the UK is a multicultural VERY segregated society. A politician will never admit that, and until people do admit it nothing will change.

I remember a long time ago a letters thread in the NME.
At a rap concert gunshots were fired in the air. People were writing in saying this was a bad thing.
One of the oh so pc journos defended shooting guns in the air at a concert as a cultural thing.
Going back on topic, a lot of people on here are blaming the girls. That's just stupid, I see young girls on the streets. I don't get together a bunch of sick bastards to do terrible things to them.
The men in court are totally responsible.

Oooh get Miss Molgrips !! I'll take your tautology and over raise you with miscegenation.

R4 had a number of commentators on this am, including ex head of the prison service / head of Barnardos, Keith Vaz MP and a spokesperson for muslim community group.

(please allow some lattitude for my para-phrasing)

The head of Barnardos made the point that perhaps the white girls were an easier group to target for this sort of crime - rightly or wrongly.

Worryingly, the muslim community group spokesperson suggested that most young muslims would be as horrified as anyone else about this abhorrent crime (rightly so), but went on to say, that most community elders would see the white girls as "asking for it". If that is the "elders" views, is it by extrapolation, also a view held by more conservatively minded younger members of the community?

I'll keep my own personal experiences of what white girls have been called/described to myself unless I'm branded a 'racist'.

"Going back on topic, a lot of people on here are blaming the girls."

Quite who above was blaming the girls?

Showing results for miscegenation

Search instead for miscengenation

Nice try 🙂

I question if it should be regarded as racism - it is their religious views that make them regard "white girls are worthless and can be abused", nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.

Or the fact that white girls in Rochdale probably are in general much more promiscuous/sexually available/active than Asian girls. I'm sure I will be accused of blaming the victims but that's not what I'm getting at at all and not suggesting the is any excuse for abusing anyone.

hels - which country is that then?

+1 zippykona, besides, we can only be responsible for our children to a point, I was very often not where I told my parents I would be, I never told them I was off to smoke weed or drink cider.

Namely, WTF are 13 year old girls doing out until all hours, taking drugs and drinking, while being ferried around from town to town? And how can you take so little notice of your children that you wouldn't notice the effects of systemic sexual abuse over a sustained period?

I think that's one area the white community may need to take a look at too

The men in court are totally responsible.

I'm not sure where anyone has suggested otherwise.

molgrips - Member
Showing results for miscegenation. Search instead for miscengenation. Nice try

Oops, glass houses, perhaps....

molgrips - Member
I didn't say he was an idiot by the way, I called him an idiot

Perhaps we can all make typos!!! 😉

I'm from New Zealand. There are pockets of resistance, but we do try quite hard to all get on and understand each other.

I would also add that your British class system clouds these issues. People seem to look for reasons to be apart from each other. And weird sectarian stuff, must have had to try REALLY hard to find a reason to put yourselves above other people whoever came up with that.

Another potential factor is re the use of drugs/alcohol to exploit the girls. Now again this is a big generalisation, but it seems reasonably likely that the use of drugs/alcohol by young white girls is higher than among Asian girls, making the white girls more vulnerable.

Hels - interesting. I know some people who lived in New Zealand for several years and they described it as being pretty backward in terms of social attitudes/racism etc, especially towards the Maoris.

BTW, a quote from the guy from the Ramadhan Foundation mentioned earlier:

Sadly when a recent white gang were convicted in Portsmouth of grooming there was very little coverage in the media but when Asian gangs are convicted there was blanket coverage, some elements of the media are feeding division when we should all be uniting to ensure that there is no safe place for these criminals from any race or background.

Bad people do bad things, in this case the bad people are Asian, in many other cases they're not...
Bad people, not bad races.

What percentage of UK population is ****stani?
What percentage of the UK population is classed as Paedophile?
The media reported that 80% of the UK Paedophiles are white however proportionality.......
I'll leave that there for you all to chew over...

What percentage of UK population is ****stani?
What percentage of the UK population is classed as Paedophile?
The media reported that 80% of the UK Paedophiles are white however proportionality.......
I'll leave that there for you all to chew over...

In 2009 the population of England was ever so slightly over 80% "white British"

So those stats look about right really don't they ?

Not much to chew over really, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Given that today's Sun is using terms like 'Asian sex monsters' in relation to this case I'm not sure they can be accused of being over sensitive on race issues.

Yes you could argue the term is factually accurate, but why highlight their ethnicity? If it was a white gang would they describe them as 'white sex monsters'?

It's far too easy to generalise about large groups in society.

The situation in some towns (for various historical reasons) can lead to a divided society, which is not a good thing.

'Cultural differences' may provide opportunities for people of certain groups to exploit those in other groups

Although extremely unpleasant, this particular issue is a very small, specific sub-set of 'sex crime' that appeals to the [b]fears[/b] of Middle-England ...and people of more overtly racist views, hence the enormous media coverage.

I suspect that a lot more abuse is perpetrated within families(of all races).

I'd also suggest that the sexual exploitation of girls, assisted by drugs and alcohol, is not limited to [i]some[/i] men of Asian descent cruising about Lancashire towns in cars on the prowl. It certainly wasn't in my (almost exclusively 'white') Lancashire town 15-20 years ago...

I'm wondering if Jack Straw is going to be given a public apology? how about one for Ann Cryer as well?

Friends from the Keighley area have been telling these tales for over a decade, channel four made a documentary on it, that was never shown for some strange reason

Hell, a certain Mr Griffin was even prosecuted for making these allegations...

Hell, a certain Mr Griffin was even prosecuted for making these allegations...

Really? I thought it was for inciting racial hatred......if you can give specifics, I'd be interested to read.

Theres the other scandal that some bloke in the police had decided ages ago that another rape victim who not have made a good witness so the police had dropped the case.

This whole thing could have been avoided.

Having passed the crown court in Liverpool many time over the last few weeks where the pervs where in court, the number of police on duty and the resourses to protect them by the police from the ordinary people going past must have cost us a fortune.The Police even had a tabbarded liason officer there.

Its sad its happened and probably still is hapening, but didnt these kids have parents who actually gave a shit what and who there kids did.

Grum - they were probably from the South Island.

Hels. Isn't that Southest? 😉

Tend to agree with yo to a great extent binners but I believe the wish to downplay it in this case is to try to stop it being used by extremist idiots to stir up trouble.

Clearly in this case there is a racial element but its not a huge or central part in it.

Binners - actually it's Redneckist.

"but why highlight their ethnicity?" because they are different to the norm? ie if 80% of the UK population is white, then the men doing this crime are different to the norm, which makes it worthy of note?

Really? I thought it was for inciting racial hatred......if you can give specifics, I'd be interested to read.

I won't post the comments in full here, but if you go to

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jan/17/thefarright.politics

and read on from

[i]"The police force and elected governors haven't done a damn thing...[/i]

and there's more than enough out there on the web over the allegations that the MP Ann cryer was making ten years ago.

"but why highlight their ethnicity?" because they are different to the norm? ie if 80% of the UK population is white, then the men doing this crime are different to the norm, which makes it worthy of note?

I guess that would be their argument. Not convinced that's all there is to it personally.

Similar thing happened in Derby!

http://www.****/news/article-1333537/Nine-men-Derby-jailed-grooming-100-sex.html

If the colours were reversed in this case (and the many others it seems) then i have a strong belief that the reaction would be entirely different.

It always seems to be the case that it's only ever racist if the criminal is white. 10 white guys beat up a black guy - racially motivated assault. 10 black guys beat up a white guy - simple assault - race seemingly not an issue at all.

This would have been major front page news for weeks if white men were grooming and raping exclusively very young black/asian/muslim girls.

I hope they all get long sentences, it'll be interesting to see what actually happens and how much of those sentences are actually served.

I think the underlying question here is one of "causality vs correlation" (please excuse the noddy application of what I read in freakonomics). Namely:
Did this paedophile ring deliberately target white girls, because they were while, or because they were easy targets.
If it's because they were easy targets, then presumably they are just as vulnerable to white paedophiles as any other, and race "isn't an issue". Maybe this is what the police were refering to, and to be honest is more a reflection of the white community in the area (if such a thing exists) as others have eluded to.

For me, questions about how the group of men came to "cooperate" in the first place is interesting.... and more indicative of whether race is an issue here. Presumably the polce have a working insight of how these rings are formed - would be telling if this group doesn't fit the typical pattern

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of The Ramadhan Foundation, said grooming was "a significant problem for the British ****stani community".

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17996245 ]link - BBC[/url]

Quick ranttete before dinner
Surely we should be discussing why the govt wont publish the NHS risk register as well somewhere on here?

s it getting to the point where the failure of the police in particular to even discuss the racial aspect of this case, probably because they're scared of what it may unleash, is now completely counter-productive to racial harmony?
All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who's got anything between their ears

Eh
Is your basic premise that white people are not sex offenders then?
I await your evidence ?
Perhaps you have proof that their race means they do this offence?

As noted the only report on this is vague as the terms such as grooming are not well defined

The prisons have more white sex offenders than BME as a proportion of each race]. Overall they probably don’t want to discuss it because even erudite posters like yourself with left leaning tendencies and a brain in their head put a racial aspect to these sex crimes therby fueling racism and the BNP /EDL agenda.

No race is immune form sex offences though the modus operandi may differ but that is all there is to it.

This sort of stuff just fuels EDL and other reactionaries to make us think the whites are not safe from the Asians which is misleading and unhelpful

That said there is no doubt that some Asian areas have an issue with this, some white areas have issues with drugs , some eastern European areas have sex trafficking issues and some areas of that there London have gang issues along racial lines

Unless you can prove that race is causal in any of this then the whole argument is pointless

it is their religious views that make them regard "white girls are worthless and can be abused", nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.

WTF are you going on about here you racist fool WTF in their religion says this? You do strike me as a scholar of Islam and I cannot wait for your great insights here. Please stop and think before posting this sort of shit.
You will be telling me next that Catholicism teaches it is ok to sexually abuse children and cover it up 🙄

Moron at best racist at worst....and no one even challenged it ..thi sis why the debates ar enot encouraged as you can say Islam says it is ok to abuse white kids and no one says a word about it. Islam teaches modesty and no sex outside of marriage as it is a sin.

the reality is that the UK is a multicultural VERY segregated society

It always seems to be the case that it's only ever racist if the criminal is white. 10 white guys beat up a black guy - racially motivated assault. 10 black guys beat up a white guy - simple assault - race seemingly not an issue at all.

Well said Junkyard.

I just read the BBC article. Interesting that they did them for Trafficking, not Rape. Guess the view was that rape charges wouldn't stick ? Not even Statutory Rape ? Thats the saddest part about all this.

Unless you can prove that race is [u]causal[/u] in any of this then the whole argument is pointless

Has anyone suggested that it is causal??

A factor, perhaps.

i agree with hels

There were no prosecutions in 2009 because the initial cps lawyer thought the girl wasnt a reliable witness, rather than any racial reasons (fwiw the 1st lawyer was white the 2nd lawyer who did push ahead was asian)

rape convictions are scandalously low and its tragic that these scumbags werent done for rape

"I will let my Asian friends know your views and we can discuss it together"

Yep, I'm up for that, perhaps we can wander round the streets of Bradford and I will show you the streets where the white community stops and the asian one begins and vice versa, or the schools which are predominantly filled with asian schoold kids where the area around is predominantly white.

And, I really hoped somebody else would make this point, and apologies if somebody did and I missed it.

The defendants were identified in news stories as all from ****stan apart from one from Afghanistan. These are not racial groups. I refer you to my first response...

No race is immune form sex offences though the modus operandi may differ but that is all there is to it.

This sort of stuff just fuels EDL and other reactionaries to make us think the whites are not safe from the Asians which is misleading and unhelpful

As usual, in debates like this race gets mixed with 'class'/education/culture. On a personal level, I generally get along with and associate with people similar to myself:(fortunate)educated, inquisitive, interested, active people, many of whom have had a wide range of experiences and travelled to interesting places. Nationality, Ethnic background and religious background are irrelevant.

If I was an ignorant person who had never spoken to people of other ethnic backgrounds, was afraid of things that were different and of an unquestioning outlook that meant that I absorbed everything that the tabloid media and loud, bigoted people told me I may have a different viewpoint.

Even if the police thought it were race related, I very much doubt they would say so. If they did, there would be a whole world of aggro and window breaking released.

The UK is a racially segregated and racist country in my book. The very fact that we treat minorities as little groups with "community leaders" shows you that this goes right to the core of how we govern.

We were just out for a wee drive over the moor and passed a sign that said 'Enjoy a Sunday Roast'

it seems that some people have decided to take it in the footballer's sense of the word..

I blame taxi drivers.. which is another thing that the Rochdale shaggers have in common.. but no-one is picking up on that are they.. 🙄

There are scumbags from every demographic, but if you really believe all races view each other as equal you are deluded. Racism is everywhere and I personally believe it is a factor in this case.

Aristotle - Member
[b]No race is immune form sex offences though the modus operandi may differ but that is all there is to it.[/b]

Indeed. And was the point of what I posted earlier.
[b]This sort of stuff just fuels EDL and other reactionaries to make us think the whites are not safe from the Asians which is misleading and unhelpful
[/b]
Exactly. It plays on the fears and (barely-hidden)prejudices of people

Aristotle (and JY) +1, but will differ on what follows:

Junkyard - Member
Quick ranttete before dinner...WTF are you going on about here you racist fool...I think that this "seems to be the case" because you are a blinkered racist with not much going on upstairs who makes stupid and outlandish points to "support" your racist views

OK JY you were on a rantette, but your use of racist in this context is unnecessary and unhelpful and goes right back to my first post. This unilateral use of the term and imo incorrect application merely supports those whose racism you and I abhor. You can jump on silly arguments without playing the race card and destroy them will equal force. Over/incorrectly playing the race/sex/age whatever XXX, merely provides ammunition to the bigots who discriminate in the first place....imho, of course!

You don't have to be racist, to recognise that the term racist is often overused and mis-applied especially in the media.

Junkyard, I think you need to take a breath and maybe consider a few apologies. Clearly the race element is worthy of discussion in this case. Its only through discussing things in an open and frank manner that lessons can be learnt. Throwing out accusations at people in a quite vile manner because they dont agree with you is immature and offensive.

I think I've mentioned before, but when I was at high school (nearly 20 years ago now), a lot of the (white) girls in my year were sexually active by the age of 14, and most of them went out with (white) guys who were in their mid-20s to early 30s.

Thought it was creepy then, and still think it's creepy now, but at the time they wouldn't consider having a boyfriend of their own age. They would hang out until 2am with their older boyfriends, drinking cider, smoking both normal cigarrettes and weed, and thinking that they were awesome because of that. I think part of the problem is that for a lot of girls, there's a belief pushed by certain areas of the media that you're only worth something if you're sexually attractive, that affection shown through gifts is more valued than respect - and it's very easy for adult men to exploit that.

I remember my one mate laughing because another friend's boyfriend had tried to persuade her to take part in five way orgy on camera. It was a very odd thing to be talking about whilst trying to study GCSE physics. :s

She said no by the way...

It seems utterly tragic that one of the victims was ignored by the police, allowing this gang to go about their business.

A representative of the Muslim community in Rochdale should give the Pope a bell and ask how best to 'manage' this problem.

All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who's got anything between their ears.

I'm not sure I agree.

The 'victims' weren't chosen [u]because[/u] of their race, they were chosen because of their attitudes...which were brought about by their upbringing. It just so happens that coincidentally the young girls concerned were caucasian.

I think I've mentioned before, but when I was at high school (nearly 20 years ago now), a lot of the (white) girls in my year were sexually active by the age of 14, and most of them went out with (white) guys who were in their mid-20s to early 30s.

I don't think this is anything new, is naturally the case worldwide, and can be easily explained by girls' reaching sexual (and mental) maturity far earlier than boys. Even at the tender age of 11, my youngest is obviously very immature on so many levels compared to his female peers. He gets no end of attention from the ladies, but has no interest in the opposite sex (or indeed the same sex) at all. Bless him.

Double post.

having been forced to get involved in child protection at work issues not so long ago looking at this case seems, aside form the race element, ever so familiar.

why i wonder is everyone (well just about everyone) getting themselves so exercised over the ethnicity of the perpetrators. this sort of stuff is going on in communities all over the country with distressing frequency. the after effects are well documented yet rehabilitation and support (of victims far less offenders)seems to be something that the community at large is happy to ignore a lack of funding on.

and if ethnicity should be discussed maybe we could start with why the (white) police dropped a case concerning (white) girls and it took nazir afzal to pick it up and prosecute it. presumably the bnp and their ilk will be celebrating him.

i applaud the bravery of these victims in coming further, even moreso in the face of the slow response and lack of action from the suthorities. these are inevitably difficult cases but the police should've done better. one wonders that when these victims start appearing with their alcohol and drug problems, self harm issues if the public outcry will be sustained. somehow i doubt it.

there is a minority of men, and it is overwhelmingly men, who will prey on vulnerable girls and boys. those victims will show a disproportionate level of psychological dysfunction and are far more at risk of becoming abusers themselves. breaking that cycle it seems to me is far more difficult but far more beneficial than reactive finger pointing.

i reiterate. what makes this sort of thing distressing is not the fact it is isolated but that it is common

Toasty's post above was by me, by the way, went home at lunch and posted on the laptop. Mr Toast went to a reputable school where the girls were chaste, or at least not getting pregnant left, right and centre. 😛

The problem isn't race. It's religious and cultural attitudes towards women.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/men-should-have-sex-slaves-says-female-kuwaiti-politician

Bwaarp... Isn't it comforting to realise that people like that still exist. Honestly there's no hope.

and if ethnicity should be discussed maybe we could start with why the (white) police dropped a case concerning (white) girls and it took nazir afzal to pick it up and prosecute it

This is a very good point - and I think that it feeds into the concerns of a great many people (and that was being exercised by Anne Cryer in Keighley) that there was and is a reluctance by "white middle class" people in positions of responsibility to take action where action could and should have been taken, out of fear of being accused of racism.

Honestly there's no hope.

I think there is.

Most people are on the whole fairly decent, tolerant of others and don't abuse children.

That doesn't sell newspapers though.

The nursery where my niece works they are not allowed to sing baa baa black sheep.

Ann Cryers statement, re the police:

"This is an absolute scandal. They were petrified of being called racist and so reverted to the default of political correctness," she said. "They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them."

Which all goes back to my original point really