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But I thought it wasn’t all about pay?
The nurses union was asking for a 19% rise IIRC, it certainly is about pay for many public sector workers.
I feel like your mind is already made up though.
One union for all bank workers would definitely change that, ie organization. But it doesn’t exist
In my day, it was NUBE and then BIFU. I think they covered 80-90% of financial workers. It wouldn't take massive industrial action to cripple the workings of the banks though - a few folk in data centres would be enough to halt payment processing in the UK.
I’m a happy teacher
Ah - see your comment's now been edited. 🙂
That's great, more power to you - many in the industry appear not to be.
When my lad was at school it changed to an academy.
A new head was parachuted in as the school was an utter mess. I approached her one parents evening to discuss my concerns that my lad hardly ever got homework and consistently had ever changing supply teachers for some subjects. I did understand that some of this was out of her control but was surprised how dismissive she was.
A few weeks after that I and all the other parents got a letter sent through the post. There were a fair few sheets inside with cgi graphics of the school etc showing how the current building work they were having done would make the school look once completed.
That's not the odd part. The aim of the letter was to get parents to lobby the council as the head wanted the building painted a certain colour and the council denied the request as it didn't fit in with the area.
So the head wasn't too concerned about staffing levels etc but very concerned about the colour the new building was going to be painted. Wtf?!
(Not moaning about teachers by the way but about the management side of things and the odd priorities on occasion.)
I'm my science staffroom of 15:
1 leaving teaching after 1 year, thinks its too hard
1 leaving out school for a better one
1 leaving teaching after 4 years because he hates it
I considering leaving teaching for the second time (me).
1 bursts into tears on a weekly basis.
1 thinking about packing in all extra responsibilities due to parents supporting kids over the school after 30 years
1 aiming for part time
1 was aiming for leadership, has backtracked and is now thinking about leaving teaching
1 has been trying to leave our school and get promoted without success for 4 years.
6 seem happy enough.
Two science technicians.
Ones on long term sick
One is starting to think about leaving after a year.
So in a nice school with a mixed catchment 2/3 don't like their current role.
What's it like in your team?
If all the lowly paid branch workers at a major high street bank walked out, it would simply serve to lose them customers and they’d be shooting themselves in the foot longer term.
Or they could get a job at another bank for more pay if they were in massive short supply. Teachers can't do that. Not enough recruited, not enough retained but still over 10+ years wages stay well below inflation every year
So in a nice school with a mixed catchment 2/3 don’t like their current role.
I have a feeling that you'd get the same range of replies in pretty much every workplace that you asked that question.
Two of my friends quit teaching after a year.
My sister recently quit after 20+ years.
Three of my friends are pretty happy, but two work in (different) special needs schools, and the other one works in a private school, all of which have decent funding, staffing, facilities, equipment etc.
And they have a monopoly on the market.
Private schools are available, you crack on. But I think the term you're looking for to describe them is 'an essential public service'.
Or they could get a job at another bank for more pay if they were in massive short supply. Teachers can’t do that. Not enough recruited, not enough retained but still over 10+ years wages stay well below inflation every year
That's a point, if education were to operate like the vaunted private sector then maths/science teachers would be massively well paid, as there aren't enough of them for the roles available. Yet as it's public sector they're limited by the defined payscales. Turns out this govt is capitalist until people want to be rewarded for the scarcity of their skillset...
The nurses union was asking for a 19% rise IIRC
No the were after a set percentage above inflation (before inflation shot up) employers lowballed the offer , inflation shot up suddenly papers are saying that they are demanding 19%. It's not what they set out for.
In my science dept when I started 9years ago there were 12 staff. After 1/2 term there will be 6. Maths depts in the region are offloading 1 period of S1 and S2 maths because no school can recruit enough maths teachers. Education in Scotland needs investment in infrastructure and pay to attract and keep staff. The age demographic has shifted, many older teachers but questionnaires have shown that those over 55 are looking for as early a finish as possible, hence why career wind down was scrapped.
I'm a happy ex-teacher. Left about 8 years ago. Taught Maths, but fortunately I had an MEng degree so jumping ship for me was quite easy. Others who I knew at the time wanted to leave but only had education degrees/experiences and found it harder to jump.
I really enjoyed the classroom time, I found it really rewarding. I found the pay then quite insulting. Not only did I have to be sh!t hot at Maths, being able to teach anything from Maths and Further Maths at A-level down to teaching a class full of bottom set year 8 kids who still struggled with multiplying two single digit numbers. I also had to be an expert in looking after children, which is a skill in its own right.
I used to limit myself to working 7am to 7pm during the week, finishing at 4pm on a Friday but then working 4pm till usually later than 7pm on a Sunday to get a head start on preparing for the next week. I would just about be able to keep on top of lesson planning and marking with that routine. There would be some longer term planning done and exploring ideas for doing something a bit innovative at half terms and for a few days at each end of term holiday.
I work for an Engineering consultancy now. I get paid more and work less hours than when when I was teaching. Heck, my job isn't even that well paid compared with others. Teachers need to be paid more for what they do.
If our current government has any respect for our children, not to mention any clue about forward planning for the state of the workforce in a couple of decades time, they'd fund education properly.
Taught Maths..Not only did I have to be sh!t hot at Maths..
I also had to be an expert in looking after children, which is a skill in its own right.
Were you aware that some of these may have been somewhere in the job description of a maths teacher before you applied? 😀
(Edit : Of course, I will be quickly shot down by people saying that kids and maths would never be in a maths teacher's job description.) 😀
No the were after a set percentage above inflation (before inflation shot up) employers lowballed the offer , inflation shot up suddenly papers are saying that they are demanding 19%. It’s not what they set out for.
I heard Pat Cullen (RCN Gen Sec) interviewed and sticking with the 19%, but saying it was an opening position.
You may be right about how they arrived at it, but I'm pretty sure that was still the demand.
If our current government has any respect for our children, not to mention any clue about forward planning for the state of the workforce in a couple of decades time, they’d fund education properly.
If our current government has any respect for our children then this wouldn't have happened
https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1154110254025777153?s=20&t=4DP_xdaR_xhx7OA1torJ6Q
Its been all (even more) downhill since Frank Spencer took over
Were you aware that some of these may have been somewhere in the job description of a maths teacher before you applied? 😀
What s stupid question. What's the point you're trying to make?
Mrs Pondo just told me that the DfE and some of Ofsted are also striking today. That seems to have received strangely little media coverage.
To answer the OP.
Yes, there are.
I've stuck around in education for 25 years or so now so and still enjoy coming to school every (most...) day, so either there's something wrong with me or things ain't that bad.
I’ve stuck around in education for 25 years or so now so and still enjoy coming to school every (most…) day, so either there’s something wrong with me or things ain’t that bad.
Or maybe there's things you like that outweigh being massively undervalued and not having financial security. That's normal, I'd have said. In my brief career as a university lecturer I really enjoyed the teaching part (less so the research) but it wasn't possible to keep on just managing to pay the bills every month, so I sold my soul to the Devil.
Or they could get a job at another bank for more pay if they were in massive short supply. Teachers can’t do that
Err no, as despite massive staff shortages, at the lower end of the salary scales, All the major banks pay their workers in these roles similar rates. You can’t just up and go to another bank to the same job for more cash. There may be one or two exceptions but in the main, if you want more money you either apply for a promotion, or you get another job outside the industry
Teachers have exactly the same choice available to them.
not having financial security
Eh?
i can’t think of many jobs that are more financially secure than a teacher. As far as I can tell, unless you do something hugely inappropriate your job is secure for life. How many other sectors can you say that about?
i can’t think of many jobs that are more financially secure than a teacher.
I mean yes if you define this to mean that some amount of money is paid on a regular basis and is essentially guaranteed by the government. Less so if you hope that this will be enough money to actually compensate you for the work you need to do/live on.
i can’t think of many jobs that are more financially secure than a teacher.
Secure in the sense that what you have today you will probably (only) have tomorrow, sure, but not in the sense that you can respond to events like, say, increasing your family size, or needing to stop working before you drop dead, or your electricity bill doubling. Perhaps "financiual security" was not a good way to phrase it.
30 years this summer in primary. Main stream then 18 years supply and now 4 years as a primary TA. It isn't horrible but the pressures are whopping all of which impact on actual teaching. I am in a class of only 23. Thing is that is all 4 KS 2 year groups with a Y6 working at Y1 level English and a new this week disabled kid in a wheel chair with minimal schooling. That effectively means that the teacher has to plan 6 different maths lessons for each day of the week. English is "only" 4! The new lad arrived with virtually nothing in the way of paperwork or equipment as his carers hadn't bothered, assuming that we would and soft old Head wouldn't say no when he arrived empty handed.
I shouldn't be seeing the best teacher I have worked with in tears at break time purely because of the work load. She only did 8 hours today in school today as she bring and gets the kids. God know what she will do when she gets home. Tea will be easy. It will be her lunch which she didn't get .
I think that the reason why so many teachers moan is the work load and more to the point the expectation that you can fit a quart into a pint pot.
What galls me is the fact that some professions that are important are treated so badly because they rely on peoples good will and desire to help. It isn't the money for many people, it is the feeling that we as a country are playing catch up in education.yet are not prepared to pay for it.
Unrelated but why do we have to "grow"? Why do we need to have more of everything each year? We, as a society have way too many luxuries as it is.
in the sense that you can respond to events like, say, increasing your family size, or needing to stop working before you drop dead, or your electricity bill doubling
Fair enough that makes sense. Although that’s pretty much the same for all normal working folks nowadays. But if they feel striking is going to improve things, then who can blame them for doing so
It’s because public sector pay has risen much less than private sector pay in response to inflation.
Quote from that link: “Regular pay growth in the public sector was 2.2% in July to September 2022, while in the private sector it was 6.6%.”
And that period is very likely to be indicative of the last year or so.
Does it make more sense now? Feeling more sympathy for the strikers?
I'm not unsympathetic to strikers but I do wonder if the ONS data stacks up against reality. I don't any private sector employer who has been awarding double digit payrises but I know of many who have been 0-3% so to get an average of 6.6% somewhere is throwing money around.
, I’m sure all the folks in my bank would go on strike if we thought we could get away with it without being sacked
You know that’s (currently) illegal right, sacking people for exercising their right to withdraw their labour?
its not quite as simple as that though. If you go on strike and the business realises it can function without you then they can make you redundant in due course. Likewise if you go on strike and actually harm the business' profits then its not unlikely that there will be redundancies that follow. That model is less applicable to public sector staff because they are all cost not profit centres and the demand for their services is not usually flexible enough to simple close it down.
i can’t think of many jobs that are more financially secure than a teacher. As far as I can tell, unless you do something hugely inappropriate your job is secure for life
Teachers have redundancies and shit ones can be done for incompetence, just like any other role.
What galls me is the fact that some professions that are important are treated so badly because they rely on peoples good will and desire to help. It isn’t the money for many people, it is the feeling that we as a country are playing catch up in education.yet are not prepared to pay for it.
Absolutely - seems to me that teaching, like the NHS and much of the public sector relies heavily on the goodwill and extra hours that people put in for free, just to keep their heads above water. Mrs Pondo's last week was a 60 hour week, and that ever-increasing extra time that she (and countless hundreds of thousands of others) gives up every week for free is not sustainable, and it's not fair.
I don’t any private sector employer who has been awarding double digit payrises but I know of many who have been 0-3% so to get an average of 6.6% somewhere is throwing money around
*Raises hand* - smidge over 10% last year.
They are poorly skilled, young people with little general knowledge, even though they are decent and committed. Many of them just don’t know how to reach and engage people. They have been taught nothing about the psychology and neurology of kids and learning or how to plan learning. So all they can do is download worksheets from Twinkle on whatever the subject is and give them to the kids, most of whom really aren’t responding.
@molgrips - that really surprises me. Literally nothing there is consistent with me experience as the relatively recent parent of a primary pupil, as the family friend of someone studying teacher training right now, nor some voluntary work I am doing right now with the local school.
Teachers have exactly the same choice available to them.
They do, and many have. The ones who stay then have to pick up the mess. Eventually they might leave too then you get the hell molgrips described above where jobs are filled by incompetent people or left empty and there are no classes. I think teachers who believe in education are quite keen to avoid that, do the best for young people and the country, because it will take at least a decade to recover from the bottom of the pit when you get there. If everyone starts leaving banking you'd expect, fairly quickly, bank management to realise there's a problem and do something to fix it.
But I thought it wasn’t all about pay?
The problem with negotiating on the other stuff is its very difficult to make tangible. Pay is a very simple negotiating point, the government knows what it will cost. The union knows what it achieved. The members can measure the effectiveness of the union. How can a government minister do something meaningful about the culture? (even if they scrap something like league tables - the behaviour is entrenched in management and parents and will no disappear quickly). How can a gov minister solve a staff shortage (other than increasing wages)? How would the union measure if those promises were going to make its members happy? How can a gov minister tackle violence against teachers? or parental expectations?
Err no, as despite massive staff shortages, at the lower end of the salary scales, A
So shortages don't lead to pay rises for bank workers. Obviously these fat cat bankers should have paid more attention in economics lessons at school!!
The argument about teachers' pay is more nuanced than it appears IMO.
While I have suffered the same real terms decrease as all teachers over the last 10+ years, with my experience and current role I'm by no means poorly paid compared to the average salary (for example) and fairly well insulated from economic troubles right now. All of us who have stayed in the precession this long and taken extra responsibilities would arguably be in a similar situation.
That's not to say that less experienced teachers, and especially support staff, aren't struggling though and it's that group that need a decent result from the current strike action.
I’m not unsympathetic to strikers but I do wonder if the ONS data stacks up against reality.
That's right, the government's own stats team are ****ing up the figures to make it look like the public sector are hard done by.
That’s not to say that less experienced teachers, and especially support staff, aren’t struggling though and it’s that group that need a decent result from the current strike action.
And that's why I'm supporting civil service strike action. I'm alright, Jack, but the majority of my colleagues aren't.
My wife is the Headteacher of a medium sized Primary School, just got home. I asked how many of her teachers were striking, none. Read into this what you will.
Happy teacher earlier:
If you are a teacher, even a happy one, don't check on the pay, hours and working conditions of your European counterparts. 😉
They are already so reduced in relative pay that they cannot afford a day without pay? The school is in an impoverished area and the pupils would be at risk of staff didn't turn up? They are all blue blooded Tories.
I dunno what does it tell us?
I asked how many of her teachers were striking, none. Read into this what you will.
Why phrase it like some cryptic soothsayer riddle? Presumably your wife knows why her teachers are not striking while others do.
For everyone else: there are many teachers unions, and they didn't all meet the voting threshold for strike action, thus their members may not legally strike.
I dunno what does it tell us?
That’s why I posted it up. I genuinely don’t know how to read this but if it’s because they really can’t afford to lose a days pay then things have gone way to far already.
I know she was surprised to get them all in.
Edit, she’s just walked in so I asked her opinion. She really believes that her staff work for the kids and the local community as a whole. Nobody wants to be seen as militant.
. I genuinely don’t know how to read this but if it’s because they really can’t afford to lose a days pay then things have gone way to far already.
Plenty of Civil Service staff talking at work that they can't afford to lose a day's pay, so very possible
I was working as my union didn't get enough people to vote.
We’ve no appropriately sized military to defend us,
We have the 3rd, 8th, or 9th most powerful military in the world depending on how you measure it. Hardly 3rd World.
https://fullfact.org/news/does-uk-have-worlds-third-most-powerful-military/
I was working as my union didn’t get enough people to vote.
Same with us- 86% voted to strike, but only 48.5% voted.
I'm a teacher, I probably work a 40hr week on average and it amazes me when I hear these stories of teachers in unpromoted posts working 60 hour weeks. Promoted posts are different, they pay you a chunk more and get a chunk of your life in return.
Teaching is one of those jobs that will fill all the time you let it and I think some of the teachers complaining about long hours are doing exactly that.
Teachers really are their own worst enemies in that regard. I'm union rep in the school and teachers regularly come to me with workload complaints. Often they could reduce the load elsewhere but they're not willing to. Sometimes they could legitimately say no to some new task if for example it's voluntary or outwith their remit. Usually they don't want to do that either. What they want is someone else to fix it for them rather than being proactive about managing their own workload.
I'm not saying this is the whole story but it's definitely part of the story and a part of the story lots of teachers don't want to face up to.
Looks like I picked the wrong time to get into teaching... I switched from the private sector in 2017, so now in my 6th year? I've beaten the odds and survived this far (also outlived eight education secretaries since I graduated)
It's odd for me, as I was expecting a pay cut anyway, so the lack of money still feels like that, rather than government cuts. But even after such a short time, I can already feel the cuts in other ways. We no longer get TAs helping the SEND kids (at least not in languages, my subject. They get prioritised for Maths and English).
Budget for trips, books, equipment etc feels extremely tight. Then the big one, staff. We're losing teachers to retirement etc and can't replace. I have to teach outside of my subject regularly, which isn't great.
It's a weird job, hard to describe to people and hard to train for. Even while you're training you don't really get an idea of the pressure and workload.
I'm probably still quite inefficient at planning, but to give you an idea:
27 teaching hours per week, I have about 6 free 50min periods per week. Add CPD, meetings etc and it's supposed to add up to this figure of x hours per week. But, this assumes you can plan all your 27 classes in 3 50 min periods of "planning time" Which is impossible.
I'm in my room by 7:30, teach until 3, leave school about 4-5. Every evening, plus Sunday, I have to spend 1-3 hours planning. God knows what this is per week, I don't want to know.
But, I do mostly enjoy it. Grumpy teenagers are still more fun to deal with than Tesco buyers.
Today was weird. I'm in the "couldn't post me a ballot" union so went to school. It was shut, so I got a ton of marking and planning done. For the first time in ages, I've had two evenings off. Woop-Woop
Every evening, plus Sunday, I have to spend 1-3 hours planning.
Not havinng a dig here but that sounds like a awful lot. Do you not have resources (personal or departmental) you can reuse? I wouldn't expect someone teaching for 6 years to have ready resources for every lesson but you should surely have a lot of stuff to draw on? My planning for the next day is maybe 20 mins at the end of the previous day. It usually involves checking the resources for the lesson are in order and writing the lesson title in my planner.
It's a valid point, Spin. 2 different languages to 5 year groups and I'm still coming across topics I've not done before, or it's been ages. Sometimes it's quicker, I find a lesson from last time and repeat. It's getting better than my first few years too. It won't be long before I'm writing scribbles in the planner in the 20mins after school.
Today I found a lesson for tomorrow, and the last time I did it was in lockdown. There's instructions in it for the students to write things in the chat box of Teams. Ahhh, the joys of remote learning.
It won’t be long before I’m writing scribbles in the planner in the 20mins after school.
A mate of mine is a lecturer and he says in your first year lecturing it takes a week to plan an hours lecture and in your tenth year it takes an hour to plan a weeks lectures. 😀
Same with us- 86% voted to strike, but only 48.5% voted
Yet it took only 52% of 51.9% to take the UK out of the EU.
Grumpy teenagers are still more fun to deal with than Tesco buyers.
The French teacher who put me on the path to becoming French was last seen stacking shelves in Safeway. Seemed reasonable to me. Safeway over a Brummy secondary modern every time. I wonder where he went from there ?
One thing I've noted is that the people I know who are ex-teachers have done really well at whatever they've followed it up with, I'd love to know how many start successful businesses (I did). Sting was no exception.
Singletrackworld Mark was a physics teacher !
There are exceptions to that rule... Step forward that moron MP Gullis. He was a teacher somewhere.
I genuinely don’t know how to read this but if it’s because they really can’t afford to lose a days pay then things have gone way to far already
Yes this is a real reason - my wife is a teacher of 23 years, part of her schools SLT and has been at the top of her pay scale for years - due to cost of living increases, as a household we cannot afford for her to lose a day’s pay.
She has been in tears due to being unable to strike but is also part of the reason her school was able to remain open; she had 3 classes of years 1-4 in one class today with the help of 1 TA. This is at a school within a desperately deprived area whose parents by & large are not that long out of school themselves and generally see school as free babysitting.
My wife pays out of her own pocket for a breakfasts for her children, buys printer ink & paper herself so that they can have worksheets in the absence of text books, is constantly providing clothing for kids who turn up either half dressed or wearing uniform that’s never seen a washing machine… the list is endless where as a family we fund the welfare of these kids.
She routinely works until 11pm most nights and is up at 6.30am for the next round. I have literally no idea where she finds the energy. She is passionate about her job, loves classroom teaching but despises all the other crap that goes with it. She sees her job as a vocation & can’t see herself working in any other profession but I think it’s killing her.
Edukator
Free MemberSame with us- 86% voted to strike, but only 48.5% voted
Yet it took only 52% of 51.9% to take the UK out of the EU.
Hah! I'm glad you posted that as I was thinking the same bloody thing.
Sorry to go off topic though guys.
I really wish the world or at least our government was populated with more people like you and your Mrs.
If that were so I'd like to think that you wouldn't have to take on such difficult responsibilities.
We opened. But with only 2.5 teachers (the deputy does the 0.5 and then goes to our much bigger partner school , 70 as compared to 40) . So two teachers. Both could have been on strike but felt that the kids were more important. We know our parents! Sadly. Our head was dealing with the other school where staff did walk out.
We have 5 TA's. Sounds a lot but four are 1:1 with kids that in 3 cases can't be left and mine 1:1 is in that very mixed class. We have TAs covering dinner duties as the dinner staff left and we can't find a replacement. This means that 1:1 are being doubled up whilst we have our allocated 30 mins lunch (I had 10).
All five TAs are health hazards as are all teachers, but maybe we'll infect enough kids to reduce the numbers. One TA though is off with pneumonia as she kept going too long.
Can't blame the plague on politics but we are over stretched to the point of sillyness . What we need is funding and a policy that doesn't insist that our kids, say , speak French at 7 years old, learn English Grammar that most adults have never heard of or try to reach a level that isn't feasible given the material we can work with.
I’m a teacher, I probably work a 40hr week on average and it amazes me when I hear these stories of teachers in unpromoted posts working 60 hour weeks.
Not unusual in many areas of the public sector, MrsMC is a social worker and a 50 hour week is the norm. Partly because she doesn't want a child to die and partly because if one does she needs to have her back covered for the enquiry.
And that workload pressure/fear of consequences seems endemic in HMRC as well
I loved teaching for the vast majority of my time as an educator, had some brilliant and inspiring kids and in comparison to the “real jobs” I had, teaching was great.
I taught for 11 years having retrained when I was 31 after a decade of sales/marketing and then project management. I left the profession last summer as a Head of House and had also been Head of Department. I left due to an increasing general malaise and the feeling that teaching was becoming an increasingly Sisyphean task, constantly chasing moving goalposts.
Workload can vary, especially as a teacher of a core subject like English. I also taught media so it was not uncommon for me to have three year 11 classes of about 30 kids. Marking was tolerable until November then mocks would kick in and by the time you’d finished marking them and reported the results and gone through errors with kids you then had a second set of mock in February and the process would start again just in time for the final sprint into exam leave. Meanwhile you’re juggling all the other year groups that you teach as well.
The key bugbear is all the actual reporting of data though, strategies and frameworks that are constantly being tweaked and updated for the academy. There is a constant feeling of not being good enough and heavy scrutiny from Ofsted, Academy heads and even SLT, who are supposed to be on your side but rarely behave so until results day in August.
I’ve had a couple of unpleasant behavioural experiences where the school didn’t exactly back me which was disappointing but not the end of the world as the vast majority of kids were great although encounters with county lines were most unwelcome and increasingly common.
Sadly education has become a band aid catching social service overflow, I’ve dealt with a disturbing amount of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, neglect and mental health issues, especially post covid. Working with external authorities like the the NHS to provide evidence for a diagnosis and provide support for those in need was a weekly occurrence.
It doesn’t help when we’ve been shat all over by the press for decades, eroding trust and opinion, pay has consistently lagged behind since I started in in 2011. If results are good we had a good cohort of students, if results were bad then we were shite. A bit of a thankless task all in all and 6 months on I can’t imagine going back.
Sadly education has become a band aid catching social service overflow
I think this is one of the key things that people who don't talk to teachers miss. The cuts to other services, including in child mental health, has a huge knock on effect on what teachers are left to deal with beyond "teaching". Worse in some schools/areas than others, because those cuts in services haven't fallen equally geographically or socially.
TLDR (didn't read the thread) ...
Isn't it like asking if their are any happy nurses etc ?
Pay is not exactly amazing so it's more a vocation that then gets interfered with/lack of resources driven by KPI's they cant influence and they either suck it up becoming increasingly dis-illusioned or leave.
Sadly education has become a band aid catching social service overflow, I’ve dealt with a disturbing amount of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, neglect and mental health issues, especially post covid. Working with external authorities like the the NHS to provide evidence for a diagnosis and provide support for those in need was a weekly occurrence
I think it's what strikes me most. My partner is the head of a large primary and the shit she has to deal with is beyond belief. In her school's area the social services have been in special measures for 15 years.
She was open and running 3 classes out of 21. The teachers that were in school were in the wrong Union. Headteacher's Union did two surveys before strike ballot which were both in favour of striking and (IIRC) their ballot was the first in over a hundred years. She was disappointed that they did not meet the threshold.
When she sent letters to parents informing them about the strike action there were no comments in person at the gate either to her or her deputy head but some parents actually spent the time to email their support for the striking teachers which was much appreciated.
^^^^ that all sounds very familiar. It’s not just the kids they have to deal with but the parents too. Society is in dire straits when local Primary Headteachers are really propping up Social Services.
I am sometimes amazed at the extent of their responsibilities. She does her job, like most Headteachers for the opportunity to change kids lives for the better. Without them we really would be screwed!!
Were you aware that some of these may have been somewhere in the job description of a maths teacher before you applied? 😀
What s stupid question. What’s the point you’re trying to make?
I thought it was funny that a teacher sounded surprised that were skills involved in looking after kids, which was fairly obvious if you hadn't quoted quite so selectively. But, yes, I was going for a cheap laugh - which you seemed to also miss - because the person who posted the original quote sounded quite sensible.
Sadly education has become a band aid catching social service overflow,
I think this is the root cause of most of the issues in the public sector, it's certainly a massive issue for the police, NHS, probably fire brigade, councils seem to spend most of their resources on the welfare of a small minority.
We need a grown up and difficult discussion about what we do with the small minority of society who take up vast levels of resource. Do we increase funding to the level it needs to be at to work with people who aren't coping, at the level we like to think we should provide, will money be enough? Are there enough people prepared to work with these challenging people? Does intervention actually work, should resources be more targeted at those that can be helped the most? Would this create an ever growing population of dependant people?
I don't know what the answers are but expecting the police to understand all the nuances of mental health issues, teachers to cope with dysfunctional families, nurses to treat revolving door patients who can't or won't help themselves is not working, is burning out the services providers which is then degrading the service for everyone else which in turn creates a sicker society in every sense and fuels the increase in dependant people.
I think the idealised levels of support government like to say we provide is seriously mismatched with what we are capable of providing as a society at the moment. The gap is getting bigger and a lot of people are being failed. The wider population will not continue to put up with it, the strikes are a key indication of that, whilst money is a driver, working conditions and expectations on employees are regularly being cited as the cause of the issues.
@stumpyjon - i think you're on the money with that third paragraph. How that element is fixed is beyond me.
I don’t know what the answers are but expecting the police to understand all the nuances of mental health issues
My lad has only been in the police force for a week or 2 and he's already seen what I told him would be the case. The police in many ways are now the defacto front line mental health service.
I firmly believe we should be judged by how the most vulnerable in society are treated and cared for. No-one is born a burden. If that minority take up large resources then so be it. However, targeted intervention in so many situations can help save life's *and* money long term.
Trouble is there are wild fires all over the place and not even a plan on the back of a fag packet to put them out.
@Poopscoop I'd broaden that to all the public facing services.
Teaching MH issues in kids and families
Nursing, revolving door patients mass MH issues.
Police yep deal with MH issues, my wife is a DC and half her cases are due to mental health issues (I'd argue all but that's semantics)
Fire service
I’d broaden that to all the public facing services.
Teaching MH issues in kids and families
Nursing, revolving door patients mass MH issues.
Police yep deal with MH issues, my wife is a DC and half her cases are due to mental health issues (I’d argue all but that’s semantics)
Fire service
It's becoming a bit of a cliche in the media, isn't it? This public service can't cope because you, the public, is using it too much, or using it in the wrong way. Nothing to do with over a decade of everything being run down, it's YOUR fault. (And, of course, it's not MY fault, it's the fault of those unspecified idiots who use it too much! Probably poor people. Or immigrants.)
/sarcasm
Until I left last year (geographical reasons), I was pretty happy.
HOWEVER...
-I taught a "fun" subject (product design/electronics)
-Our department was small but amazing, really supportive
-The schools was pretty nice, with nice kids
-As a DT dept, the focus/pressure was often pointed at other departments
-If we got the results (which we did), we got left to it
I did some napkin maths the first year I taught, when I was getting all my planning and everything in place, and even working a few extra hours a day, I was coming out on top with the holidays. I don't mind working late in January if it means I get August "off".
I can certainly see how the work would get away from folk though, and the pressure can be debilitating. I have assorted family, friends and ex-colleagues who ended up off for months at a time with stress related conditions. Finding quick, efficient ways to manage the load worked well for me, but not everyone has that option.
As with everything, working smarter, not harder was a good policy. Spending hours checking simple homework? Stick it on a Google form and it'll mark itself, you can check and add feedback later. 200 year 7 reports to write? Invest the time in making a spreadsheet that will generate the reports for you, likelihood is you'll just be copy/pasting stock phrases anyway, so get Excel to do it. Etc.
Let's not talk about OFSTED though, eh.
One of the reasons I enjoy teaching more than speaking to Tesco happened today:
Year 7 - in an exam. One of the "spikier" student is obviously peeking at another students work so I start off with my most non-confrontational lines "I'd like to find out what you know, not her. Why don't you grab a seat up the front here so you can concentrate?"
She refuses. I admit it wasn't really a request. Move, thanks. Refused, I suggested getting a detention over swapping seats seems like a terrible waste of time. Finally, she moves, and on the way says to me:
"Don't even look at me, you disgust me!"
I sometimes think I should go back on twitter, just to create an account of "stupid shit students said to me today"
Been a teacher for over 11 years. It's OK if you have the following:
Up to date equipment.
Enough equipment for everyone.
Big enough rooms.
A space to do admin work thats not overcrowded.
Supportive management that listen to you.
A reasonable timetable.
But, a realistic scenario is: You don't have the correct equipment, and management don't think you need the equipment you ask for, even when they don't know the subject you teach. You are asked to teach 25 students in a room designed for 15. Then half the students don't show up. Management blame you. Parents blame you. Then students show up after being off for a month and parents expect you to put in extra hours to "catch them up". Then it's kinda hard.
Though now I just do my best and if I get fired I'll just ride my bike more.
I know a few teachers (mostly secondary) and not one of the secondary school ones are happy - for pretty much the reasons stated above. Completely understandable in my opinion.
It’s pretty much the same theme from all of them - love the “teaching” bit but dislike all the bureaucracy and ridiculous hours and expectations that comes with it. Only thing that keeps them in the profession… yep… the holidays. And for that reason - they feel trapped in the job. Again, completely understandable.
As a parent myself, I want my kids to get a decent education so they can survive life.
Many teachers I've talked to say they are working ridiculous hours and not having a life themselves. If I have time for my kids, then they should have
Why are they striking instead of doing something different? Like working to the 48hrs rule, on site, clocking on and off and demonstrating via time/motion that there simply isn't enough time to do their job as it's grown to be, thereby forcing the system to change to accommodate them, and attract further staff?
Why are they striking instead of doing something different? Like working to the 48hrs rule, on site, clocking on and off and demonstrating via time/motion that there simply isn’t enough time to do their job as it’s grown to be, thereby forcing the system to change to accommodate them, and attract further staff?
Presumably, their union has decided what they think is most likely to get the effect they want quickly. Teachers striking has quite a ripple effect which means politicians feel it directly, whereas teachers not doing extra stuff takes a long time before it has an impact. e.g. one of the first things teachers cut in the 1980s strikes was out of school clubs and activities. Thats probably still having a long term impact today with obesity etc but at that moment in time I am sure was a "so what" from government - lets face it if you are earning £80k a year in parliament your own kids are able to access clubs and activities privately even if the teachers stop.
Time and motion studies! Well I don't think anyone is disputing the workload. I'm sure studies have been done. I'm also sure that there are some intelligent efficiencies to be made - but the way schools are organised arguing with local management about how work gets done is different from arguing with the people who fund it locally and nationally.
Many teachers I’ve talked to say they are working ridiculous hours and not having a life themselves. If I have time for my kids, then they should have
That "should" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. 🙂
Why are they striking instead of doing something different? Like working to the 48hrs rule, on site, clocking on and off and demonstrating via time/motion that there simply isn’t enough time to do their job as it’s grown to be, thereby forcing the system to change to accommodate them, and attract further staff?
It's insane that people would argue for a long-term reduction in quality of service (and the knock-on this would have in terms of quality of education) over a one day strike.
Any teachers on here willing to admit they voted tory in the last GE?
Yep. Damn sight better bet than the thick headed hypocrits as an alternative.
However I do consider all polittians as parasites. We need to be run by professionals not glory seeking amateurs or those who think that their own little prejudice is important. By the time politics gets past parish level we are into ego trips not care.
No chance. Keeping the faith that we’ll manage to break out of this broken two party bullshit that’s ****ed our country over. If that means my vote is wasted by voting for an “alternative” then so be it
Less happy today. Horrible news about a colleague who was already in a horrible situation.