[Closed] Are the fascists winning?

it feels that way 🙁

“History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, second as a farce.”

Yes. But not "fairly".

The "tolerant left" tend to be nice people. Not likely to get into a fight and generally avoid confrontation. I think they tend to believe that if everything is explained and all the facts laid out, the truth will win, surely?

The right dont give two  toots about the truth. As long as it fits their narative theyll stamp on anyone who disagree them, even if what they suggest is utter nonsense.

see for reference: "weve had enough of experts"

The “tolerant left” tend to be nice people. Not likely to get into a fight and generally avoid confrontation. I think they tend to believe that if everything is explained and all the facts laid out, the truth will win, surely?

That's a very valid point. Most people like the idea of fairness and equality but there's a reluctance to properly stand up to and call out liars, hypocrites, racists, grifters. They won't just go away. And there's an element of human nature that Orwell got right when he said all pigs were equal (or however he phrased it).

I'm not sure it's fascists that will win, but the oligarch disrupters who pull their strings will.

That said, I live in what was the heartland of the BNP 20-25 years ago. It's much less obvious and more multicultural now. Maybe the silent majority is growing but a shrinking minority is getting more vocal. The public reaction to last summers riots gave some cause for hope.

I was at the National Museum of Scotland on Saturday where they have a Cold War exhibition on. One item they had on display was a piece of propaganda fired by the Chinese at British troops during the Korean war. It said something to the effect of "it's not the left who are trying to take over your country, it's American billionaires".

That was written seventy years ago and it's still true today. I've always wondered why we still make such a big song and dance about World War 2 and veterans, but seeing how things are going I can see why it's important - because if we don't keep it I. The public conscious, we'll forget the lessons of it and regress to fascism.

Yes. Very much so.

Recently had this graffiti sprayed near a local landmark.
https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/disgust-racist-swastika-graffiti-spray-30804626

And this sticker appeared on a road sign on the way to it.

I removed it as best I could.

**** nazis.

The “tolerant left” tend to be nice people.

This goes right to the top. Biden's signing off speech warned of the direction politics is travelling and the dangers. But he couched it in subtle enough language that the knuckle draggers amongst the electorate won't comprehend. He could have said 'Trump is a fascist that needs bringing down now for the future generations and I despise him as a human being. And Musk is as his enabler is a horrific example of the future dangers of too much wealth and power in the hands of unhinged narcists'. He was too nice.

And today the Bidens will do "the right thing" and have tea with the Trumps and smile for the cameras and clap at the right times......in exactly the spot where Trump supporters rioted, at his incitement, 4 years ago.

Then on the small scale.....me. I'm way way too nice the family member and friends with views I deplore. When I should be telling them exactly why they are wrong and what hold them makes them.

So yes - we are too nice......it's a slippery slope. 'Winter' by Len Deighton is a fictional story built of true history of the slippery slope of the views of the 'common man' in Nazi Germany. How people's views and actions became normalised and what they would do or feel changed over the years as what was once unthinkable became every day. It's a chilling read/listen.

The Swiss did not hide their Xenophobia when i lived there 10 years ago.

With migration increasing (war and climate) the pressures that create facism will only increase.

But

"The only difference between me and that asylum seeker is luck"

And

"First they went after the asylum seekers.."

Its really easy to scape goat asylum seekers, like it was before brexit with people who settled here from Europe.

It turned out they actually made a very valid contribution to society and we are poorer since they left. I fear that now Trump has power again he will not allow presidential elections at the end of his term. He is more of a danger to democracy than anybody on the left.

I have very little knowledge of the characters you are talking about, but

Last week the AfD had a conference. That two faced lesbian living in Switzerland with her Syrian girlfriend stood on the stage with eight German flags to her left and eight to her right.

Appearing to use someone's sexual orientation as a pejorative is ok now? Maybe we're not all as lefty and perfect as we think?

I think they tend to believe that if everything is explained and all the facts laid out, the truth will win, surely?

Facts are over. Might be overstating it slightly, but it's the direction of travel. Well, fact checking is about to be defeated/sidelined/ignored/stopped anyway. Add in who controls and allows "information" to be provided by AI/LLM to the masses, with no bias towards truth telling... and it sure looks bleak.

Appearing to use someone’s sexual orientation as a pejorative is ok now?

Not used as a pejorative, but rather used to point out the duplicity.

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/lgbtq-germans-fear-elon-musk-backed-afd-could-reverse-rights

Interesting that you can be a "tolerant" leftie but if you are at all right wing then you are a fascist.

Maybe tolerance has been redefined and I missed it.

Edit: the overlap between this thread and the Neil Gaiman thread bears some thought. At which point do we personally cancel folk due to their beliefs not quite matching ours? Do we have to run through a cast/presenter list of every TV show and movie, research their past utterances, place them on a left-right scale and then decide if we're willing to watch their performances?

Not as a pejorative, but used to point out the duplicity.

https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/lgbtq-germans-fear-elon-musk-backed-afd-could-reverse-rights/blockquote >

Fair do's apology to the OP. Like I said, very little knowledge of the characters. I still think the settee could have been significantly better phrased to make the point.

 

Interesting that you can be a “tolerant” leftie but if you are at all right wing then you are a fascist.

Not at all. No one is equating "at all right wing" with fascist. Look at MrSparkle's posts... are they about someone being "at all right wing" or about someone openly promoting fascists symbols? As for the AfD... they are more than just right wing, they are the force in Germany playing on the desire of some to at best minimise and at worst celebrate the horrors of Nazi era Germany.

interesting that you can be a “tolerant” leftie but if you are at all right wing then you are a fascist.

Really?

Starmer's labour, Biden's democrats, Scholz's SPD and Macron's Renaissance, are all right of centre parties and not generally called fascists. In the current world you are more likely to be called a commie for being slightly left of centre way before you are likely to be called fascist for being quite far right of centre.

The afd, reform, national rally and the republicans can quite rightly be labelled "fascist" in what we commonly consider the policies of hate that they encourage and hope to enact IMO

If anything it is the "left" that are being cancelled, look at the farcical recent episodes in France, where Macron has refused to acknowledge the recent election results, and laid the path to Le Pens victory at the next election as he prefers to continually concede ground to the far right rather than an inch to the left.

It feels like they’ve got momentum.

I think that terms like Fascist are too 20th Century for what we’re facing now. We need new labels, like Populist but scarier to show what they are.

Although it seems very depressing at the moment, it’s important to remember that the conditions that allowed the 20th Century Fascists to seize power were much, much worse than they are now. Populations have to be pretty desperate to get behind them completely rather than have them shouting from the edges.

Trump is not a Fascist, he’s not that sophisticated. He’s just a greedy piglet who thinks having an American oligarchy suits his needs. If he thought being a DEI supporting liberal was advantageous to him, he’d be on that bandwagon.

Interesting that you can be a “tolerant” leftie but if you are at all right wing then you are a fascist.

As others have pointed out this is incorrect. Its interesting how often this line is used to try and stoke outrage. I am not sure if it is deliberate or not since many who do seem to categorise the entire left as one integral body so it might just be they do the same for the right.

For example very few (I am sure there will be some) would call the CDU or BD fascist despite them being right wing parties.

The Afd on the other hand seem to fit it quite well (although fascism by its nature isnt the easiest ideology to define since it doesnt really have any central shared beliefs).

At which point do we personally cancel folk due to their beliefs not quite matching ours?

Good question and it is one the hard right are quite keen on with their book banning and so forth.  The poster child for cancel culture for me is still the red scare in the USA and kicking all those "communists" out.

I am not sure why you use " left-right scale" though especially with reference to Gaiman?

Interesting that you can be a “tolerant” leftie but if you are at all right wing then you are a fascist.

You have this arse-backwards. Not all the right wing are fascists. But all the fascists are right wing.

Funny how everything leads back to a brexit analogy these days.

Maybe tolerance has been redefined and I missed it.

That's a loaded statement. Do we tolerate (say) gay people and homophobic people equally?

I tolerate homosexuals, trans people, foreigners, immigrants, Trekkies, Christians, vegans, furries. I don't tolerate homophobes, transphobes, racists, xenophobes, people pushing bacon into mosque letterboxes, PETA and people who think it's funny to rock up at conventions to take the piss out of folk.

Should we tolerate someone vandalising Darwen Phallus with Nazi imagery? Freedom of artistic impression and it was a symbol of peace a millennium or two back? I for one am spitting feathers about that, symbolism aside even.

Not everything merits tolerance. This is precisely how the right gains traction, by shouting down any opposition with words they can't even spell let alone understand.

I think that terms like Fascist are too 20th Century for what we’re facing now. We need new labels, like Populist but scarier to show what they are.

Oligarchist? Kleptocracist?

Ahem - from right up there in this thread...

The right dont give two  toots about the truth. As long as it fits their narative theyll stamp on anyone who disagree them, even if what they suggest is utter nonsense.

Some of the Right? All of the Right? This is the same as TJs if you vote Tory you're a bastard invective.

They are certainly shouting the loudest, and from it making gains across the world. I do think it stems from the general situation of inequality / poverty for many people, which populists are using to speak to underinformed people to turn immigrants / refugees / trans people / people of colour into the root cause of their issues. We on the more progressive side of things don't have a demonic figure to blame problems on.

Well, we do - it's billionaires and donors. The problem is the progressives haven't, for some reason, decided to ever spell it out in plain terms. We need to play dirty and drive the point home to the general populace. I don't know how you do that - it's much easier to say "these Syrians are taking your jobs and spending our money - we will send them home" than it is to explain how the corrupt system of power works without sounding like a hippy that nobody takes seriously.

Corbyn could have done this, had it not been for the press assassination and him being a mild mannered, wishy-washy seeming old bloke.

But all the fascists are right wing.

But only because it is defined as a right wing movement:   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Look at the rest of the definition and you’ll see a very strong overlap with the sort of state run by strong man communist leaders such as Stalin.

Some of the Right? All of the Right?

That was about telling the truth vs being fascist.

Whilst still oversimplifying I would say if we look at the UK the right (as in their primary representatives in the tories and reform) have shown a habit of ignoring the truth in recent years.

Look at the rest of the definition and you’ll see a very strong overlap with the sort of state run by strong man communist leaders such as Stalin.

That isn't a failing of communism, though- that was a failing of Stalin. All the negative elements of facism are bound up in the ideology.

We on the more progressive side of things don’t have a demonic figure to blame problems on.

Well, we do – it’s billionaires and donors. The problem is the progressives haven’t, for some reason, decided to ever spell it out in plain terms. We need to play dirty and drive the point home to the general populace

Good point - in our "leftie" bubble, we see the articles, memes and cartoons, but they don't gain traction where they need to, whether that's due to the right dominated press I don't know.

If anything it is the “left” that are being cancelled, look at the farcical recent episodes in France

Or don't look any further than the centrist/fake-left people on here who use phrases like 'sixth former' or 'ideological purity' whenever someone suggests we might want to do something different than the neo-liberal standard. The fight against fascists will never be won with 'grown-up' policies and strategies. What it needs is good old fashioned propaganda, quite a bit of direct action and dare I say it perhaps even some violence. You can't win against these people with arguments and logic, you win with the direct application of power backed by the threat of punishment. Liberal democracies have at their disposal the entire machinery of the state to stand up to the oligarchs and fascists, we should be using it.

More seriously,

people on here who use phrases like ‘sixth former’ or ‘ideological purity’

Has that happened? I assume you're singling out a particular poster here, I've not seen such phrases.

The right dont give two toots about the truth. As long as it fits their narative theyll stamp on anyone who disagree them, even if what they suggest is utter nonsense.

You probably mean the far right. I'd like to hope there is a moderate right still, somewhere.

@MoreCashThanDash - I think it's just due to the left-wing memes being a bit snooty and only circulated in lefty spaces, sometimes sneering down at the Stupid Working Classes. Left humour can punch down too, but hiding behind a veneer of intellectualism and "We are smart for voting Remain" type of business.

I also think that "The real problem are the billionaires man - tax the rich!" is just super hard to swallow for a lot of the working classes, where an aspirational mindset to get rich themselves is something that is sought after. Now we are being told we aren't even allowed to earn money! Bloody woke. Must be the lefty asylum seekers fault, they want to give the money to them!

Also - people can see immigrants every day, who act as a tangible and visible symbol of a changing world away from the white man...doesn't matter that they are gainfully employed and part of the community. You don't see corrupt billionaires every day, so such sentiments are often just sounding like shouting at the wind.

All just my opinion, and probably a convoluted one at that!

The right is driven by emotions, and not generally very pleasant ones.

Nah thats just lazy. If you look at one national conservatism for example it isnt driven by that.

Admittedly its become a more popular option recently but then I think thats more due to the lack of any real disagreement politically between them and the centrists. Ultimately if you are arguing for failed policies then you need to get people angry about something else so they dont ask awkward questions about why keep trying these policies which dont work for the country as a whole.

The Tories have been the Party Of Self for some time now, they’re the “what’s in it for me?”

And yet, of course, if you read some more right wing forums you will see the same being claimed about Labour and their payrises of the "public sector unions"

And yet, of course, if you read some more right wing forums you will see the same being claimed about Labour and their payrises of the “public sector unions”

Or the right wing claim that poor people vote Labour because they want more benefits.

that was a failing of Stalin

Really - just Stalin? Or pretty much every leader of the USSR from then to Gorbachev - with the possible exception of Khrushchev, an aberration who was “dealt with”.

Looking further east, Mao and his successors followed much the same path.  Even communist leaders like Castro who seem to have their people’s welfare more apparently in mind still rule with many of the characteristics of fascism.

Also – people can see immigrants every day, who act as a tangible and visible symbol of a changing world away from the white man…doesn’t matter that they are gainfully employed and part of the community.

There's probably a term for this, confirmation bias perhaps? Like, folk don't see the majority of cyclists (unfortunately sometimes literally), they just notice the idiots who gamble red lights and then they cry "bloody cyclists!"

It's the same with immigrants, they see a doctor's waiting room full of non-Caucasian people and think "bloody foreigners coming over here and driving up waiting lists" whilst conveniently skipping over the fact that they've got an appointment with Doctor Patel.

pretty much every leader of the USSR from then to Gorbachev

Apart from their very early years, none of the so-called communist states have ever practiced communism. They have all lapsed into undemocratic autocracies. Given how human nature is manifesting itself around the world at the moment, this may be inevitable - there just aren't enough people prepared to work for the greater good rather than their personal enrichment.

I’d like to hope there is a moderate right still, somewhere.

I say this with great disappointment, but based on their first 6 months, I'd have to say that this was the current Labour regime. There really isn't much socialist about their behaviour at all.