[Closed] Are mose people now just 'Technology Consumers'?

Has 'looking under the hood' to borrow an american term become a bit of a luddite thing?

Yes

Its sad.

My neighbour was a mech-eng his whole life. The experiences and knowledge have are phenomenal. Im more IT based myself but he can talk for hours about different thread pitches. how to tell what is what and amazingly how to modify them to do different things. E.G modifying a normal tap so it can be used as a cutting tap.

Most people just don't seem interested in knowing what happens behind the scenes.

Most people just don't seem interested in knowing what happens behind the scenes.

[b][u]Most[/u][/b] people have never been bothered with what goes on behind the scenes. Why would they be? Especially now, where pretty much everything "just works".

Does anyone else see the world like this fella?

Yes, most people. But not ALL people, because then stuff that "just works" would never get built.

Some people like to "get under the bonnet" and some - maybe most - don't. The great thing is that in this day and age things just work, so if you have no interest in getting under the bonnet you don't have to. The great thing is that in this day and age if you DO want to get under the bonnet there are innumerable resources at your fingertips to help you. Win win in my opinion...

...luddite 🙂

Even the folk that "get under the bonnet" only go so far. In your example, why would anyone buy a basic, underpowered, computer when they could learn to make one from first principles? For the overwhelming majority of the population, a computer is simply another tool which helps them do their "real" job. I don't think that has changed much from the very earliest days of industrialisation (and, in fact, probably precedes that).

Most people take their car to a garage to get it serviced.

Most people ask somebody who knows IT when their computer breaks.

So yes, most people couldn't give a monkeys how things *work*.

I'm sceptical of the Pi too - kids have had a PC at home for years... whats to stop them learning programming (sorry, 'coding' LOL) on that?

No excuse...

Some people like to "get under the bonnet"

http://hackaday.com/

stuff that "just works"

There is a lot to be said for things that just work.

I [i]understand[/i] how my iPad and iPhone* work on multiple levels (I'm a Software Engineer specialising in embedded systems) but I'm quite happy to not have to worry about it while I use them. In fact I embrace the Appley-walled garden precisely because I can't be bothered worrying about it.

*(other tablets and phone are available)

Oh, and for the record, I'm considering buying one.... but then again, I'm a computer geek who likes to tinker.

I'll be connecting home automation things to it, and probably use it as a fancy low-power media centre.

Indeed druidh - in fact cookeaa, as an IT bod of some sort or another, I'm sure that you'd be aware that 99% of development languages are targetted at those who don't want to look under the hood.

In fact I embrace the Appley-walled garden precisely because I can't be bothered worrying about it.

amen, i spend my working life worrying about that stuff. it would be a busmans holiday to do it at home.

In your example, why would anyone buy a basic, underpowered, computer when they could learn to make one from first principles?

Because transistors are really really fiddly!

Are mose people now just 'Technology Consumers'?

Maybe. So what?

I'm not specially keen on learning about programming. I generally like to know how things work, but given the yawning chasm between what I know now and how much I'd need to know to improve the functionality of the devices I use (like the phone and the laptop). I'm quite happy to leave this as an area I'm not an expert in and concentrate on other things.

Back to the OP's colleague, I can totally understand him not wanting to bother himself, but I think you have to be a bit blinkered not to see the appeal that's there for some.

I was chatting about this with another IT friend last week. I guess the difference is that as technology matures you don't really need to know how it works, but you can just use it.

I see the difference though between what I was taught in the early 80's vs my son now - he's taught to use applications (MS and Sage), where I was taught coding (Assembler and BASIC) and how generic apps could work.

Probably no different in the late 18th century for steam engines.

I'd say most people and (IMHO) it's down to technology being so sophisticated (*and good) and also a change in the way things are built and put together and a change in the 'jobs/skills' that people have.

e.g. cars/motorbikes - I used to gap the plugs, points, fiddle with the carb etc etc, I probably couldn't even find them nowdays and to be fair I don't really need to with 12,500 service gaps.

as a nipper me and dad used to do things like put a new element in the kettle. a - could you get the old one out now[bar total destruction], b - could you find the spare part, c - would it be worth if if a new kettle is £10, d - have you ever burned a modern element out, e - as part of 'modern and sophisticated society' wouldn't you already have thrown it out as it's not the most up to date colour

Overall probably quite bad for 'man'kind as I think the shed/flat cap quiet tinkering time was quality time and an awful lot of people don't have it any more.

edit - true story, in the storms a few years ago fence blew down, so I had a chat with neighbours missus and asked about us rebuilding it ourselves, and I quote - 'my husband can't use a hammer' ....

I wonder if technology has moved on to a point where only a few truly understand how it works.

Car's for example...my first car was a pea green Opel Kadet, the only thing I paid to get done on it was the MOT, everything else was done by me - servicing, body repairs, fixing it when it broke down (which it did a lot...I bought it for £150).

When I look under the bonnet of my current car, I don't know what half of the bits and bobs do. Although, because of the time spent fixing my first car, I could explain how an internal combustion engine worked, and could hazard a guess at what was wrong with a broken one.

Computers too...we had an Amstrad CPC464, I used to program games on it in BASIC that I got from magazines and programming books. Nowadays, I think only a few kids bother with programming. (we also had a very early Mac which Dad brought home from work when they were getting rid of old equipment - I wish we never threw it out as it's probably worth a bomb). The closest thing some kids get to programming is customising their myspace page (does that still exist?).

I think programming computers had more appeal when the things you could create were not a million miles away from actual games available at the time, ie you could easily program a simple text based adventure game in BASIC which seemed incredible.

Now programming something like that seems a bit lame and pointless when you've got CoD on your PS3 sat there in the corner.

Some things I consume, some things I take an interest in.

Most people will be the same, some things you won't even realise...

For my job I work developing paints. Now most people probably don't even realise that anyone does this but we have a lab of about 50 people here and similar sized ones at sites around the world. In fact you probably think that paint is just paint because to you it looks that way but there's a heck of a lot of development work that goes into it and some quite complicated (and interesting) chemistry. But when you nip into B and Q *you don't care.

*You can't actually buy the stuff I work with in B and Q as it is fro industrial applications, oil rigs, bridges, stadia etc.

Yes

Its sad.

It's not sad.

Technology has developed to the point where it's an essential part of our lives. So trillions gets spent on developing new cool stuff.

I reckon just as many people are into looking 'under the hood' as they were, but now you've got masses more cool stuff than ever before.

I was always into UTH - but if you went back in time to 1990 and brought the teenage me to 2012 I'd probably die of amazement and excitement. What we have today is truly staggering on all sorts of levels - and you take it for granted.

Imagine going back to say the 1950s and showing some petrolhead a modern car. It wouldn't have to be a Ferarri, even a Ford Focus would be amazing.

You can still go UTH to your heart's content, but now you can read about it online instantly and chat to people all over the world in real time, instead of having to buy 'electronics monthly' magazines.

I wear clothes, I don't know about cotton farming or weaving.

I wonder if technology has moved on to a point where only a few truly understand how it works.

Hmm.. not so much - people will understand how parts of it work. It's always the case though - in the 17th century you could be a proper polymath and understand the latest developments in maths and science. Now you have to dedicate half a career to getting to the leading edge in one tiny subject. It's cos we know sooooo much more.

There just isn't the time in one lifetime to learn about everything in detail.

n fact cookeaa, as an IT bod of some sort or another, I'm sure that you'd be aware that 99% of development languages are targetted at those who don't want to look under the hood.

Not a bit of it, I'm a Clanky and prooud of it, doesn't stop me taking an interest in whirlygigs and magic string, part of why I like the idea behind the RasPi is that I think it addresses that whole Black box full of unknowable magic thing that's been built up over the last 15 years or so, it's there to be messed with, both Hardware and software wise and it's not some kids £500+ PC for school work or his Dads Macbook, it's a cheaply, replaced board with none of the financial value, Aesthetics or product semantics that people get so caught up in...

Ask yourself honestly is your laptop/PC/tablet just a 'tool' or are people now not a bit more 'invested' in them?

The bloke that triggered my rant is not some witless 20 something graduate but a fella old enough to be my Dad (maybe late 50s - early 60s) and yes he bleats on about the wonders of Apple products, but all his appreciation of technology seems to come from a 'look and feel' (and perhaps a bit of conspicuous consumption) angle...

I've not got the hard-on for apple products, they're pretty and do their job but if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?
It's like owning a Diamond encrusted, Platinum lump hammer to my mind...

But that's just me, I can understand consumer culture, I do take part in it, I Even get the "everything just works" point (although I don't think it 100% true, generally the products we buy now are better thought out and more durable than they were 20 years ago). What I just don't get this total disinclination to get at the 'nuts and bolts' of anything, a lack of curiosity or even no comprehension of others curiosity seems beyond strange to me...

What I just don't get this total disinclination to get at the 'nuts and bolts' of anything, a lack of curiosity or even no comprehension of others curiosity

Are you interested in handbags? Nails? Contemporary dance?

We are all different. Why is this strange?

Excellent TED on how this has happened.

http://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex.html

slainte 8) rob

cookeaa - Member
if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?

I'm often surprised at how many people are completely powerless with technology.

for example phones - I've repaired a bunch of phone things, like charger sockets going wrong, screens etc. All that required was a couple of screwdrivers and an internet connection for the youtube videos showing how. for things I can't do, I at least am able to work out how to get it fixed. wheras I've met people who were going to do crazy things like chuck out 500 quid iphones because they'd cracked the glass.

And laptops - number of people who've chucked laptops because they got viruses or the hard disk was full is shocking.it'll be worse now macs have viruses, because they attract exactly this type of anti knowledge type in large numbers nowadays.

I'm often surprised at how many people are completely powerless with technology.

What surprises me more is how many of those people seem [i]proud [/i]of the fact, too.

If I had a pound for every time someone said to me, "oh, I'm computer illiterate" with a chuckle and a smug grin, I could retire. You wouldn't do that with reading, you'd be embarrassed.

I don't expect everyone to be engineers (otherwise I'd be out of a job) but come on, people. You don't have to be a mechanic to be able to drive, but if you couldn't drive you'd take lessons. You wouldn't get behind a wheel, crash, and laugh "oh, I'm car illiterate, me."

"I got an error message." Oh, what did it say? "Oh I don't know, I don't understand any of that crap." You don't have to understand it, that's my job, but did you lose the ability to read?

I worry sometimes that advancing technology is making people stupid.

Pride in ignorance is always odd, unless it is ignorance of what it feel like to commit murder, rape or other atrocities.

if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?

Most people do this. I've seen tradesmen oohing and ahing over some tools or other.. even cyclists get all worked up over bikes when they are basically the same as each other. I think, anyway.

I actually had someone say to me once, whilst I was fixing an issue they were having, "oh, I don't understand any of this computer shit." You've just called my career and my hobby "shit," and you expect my help? Thanks.

*goes for a lie down*

Most people do this. I've seen tradesmen oohing and ahing over some tools or other.

"Lifestyle" products. B&O nailed this years ago, and Apple are currently making a killing on it. It's no longer enough (and arguably, no longer necessary) to have a product that's functionally brilliant, it has to look good too. Why would you have a two-foot high beige box in your living room when you can have something sleek that's all brushed aluminium and hi-gloss black?

Which are you going to persuade your partner to let you buy?

I've not got the hard-on for apple products, they're pretty and do their job but if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?
It's like owning a Diamond encrusted, Platinum lump hammer to my mind...

Hmmm, this is starting to look like a bit of a STW classic 'I like something, other people that don't think the same as me are stupid/inferior'.

I actually had someone say to me once, whilst I was fixing an issue they were having, "oh, I don't understand any of this computer shit." You've just called my career and my hobby "shit," and you expect my help? Thanks.

Think you're misunderstanding the modern lingo, that doesn't mean they are actually calling it shit.

I like everything, me. Just by varying degrees. And I'm a firm believer in 'the right tool for the job'.

they're pretty and do their job but if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much

You can knock in nails with a rock. Use your mum's best spoons instead of tyre levers.

Sometimes it is worth paying for a tool that is nice to use.

I am looking at developing a low cost case for the Raspberry Pi. It has me VERY excited and will involve me, my local school and some tame packaging suppliers that I work with in my day job.

Planning to make the case out of high quality sustainable carboard and slot it together in two halves like one of those archive boxes. Should be able to sell for £3 or so delivered.

Apart from a few geeks I work with, the level of interest in Pi is very low. Shame really, but I hope it gathers momentum.

Many of us spend most of our lives in front of a computer. Many of us also appreciate beauty and design in what we use and have around.

This (work) Lenovo thinkpad is a seriously hardcore quad i7 with 8GB ram (trying to wrangle 16GB), Nvidia quadra 1GB, 1080 screen etc etc etc and the battery still lasts 6 hours, however it looks like an ugly black plastic thing exactly like my thinkpad from 2003. I dunno where I am going with this btw. Perhaps because I was surprised to find out how expensive it was when I checked, and also perhaps because I wish it looked a bit nicer*

*I have installed Windows 8 on it, this has helped in the niceness stakes, now I just wish it had a touchscreen 🙂

It is improvements in design that have made it this way. You don't need to get under the bonnet to make things work now - they just do. You don't need to be able to program - you buy software and it (mostly) works. Why should 'normal' people care about how it works? With the development of technology, most stuff looks pretty much the same inside and that wasn't always the case.

You g33ks wouldn't be g33ks if everyone thought like you do.

You can knock in nails with a rock. Use your mum's best spoons instead of tyre levers.

Sometimes it is worth paying for a tool that is nice to use.

That's not what you're describing though. You can knock nails in with a hammer, or you can knock nails in a hammer which has a gilt shaft and a mother of pearl inlaid handle.

The Raspberry Pi is a nifty board but the fact is, if you're interested in learning to code there are dozens of ways to go about it with the computers people have already. From that aspect I'm more excited about things like Code Year / Code Academy. For someone coming from a non-technical background and wanting to learn more, I'm not sure a basic SoC board with no power supply or storage with it, that needs a special bootable SD card making, is a particularly good place for them to start. It's not going to fix the issue of programming in schools overnight. I really hope that a load of good software and educational materials come out of people's enthusiasm for it because it's the only chance of it making any change - the hardware is not really that significant, and for schools it's yet more things to buy and maintain and keep track of.

The generation waxing lyrical about the possibilites of these, who grew up with Spectrums and C64s, had to learn more about what was going on just to make things work. You typed in those programs from the magazines because you had time on your hands and buying games from Woolworths cost too much paper round money. If you had what we have now when you were a kid, would you have been as keen to learn more about technology that, for the most part, just gets out of the way and lets you get on with it? Would you have found another passion that might have been just as fulfilling?

People take deep interests (and have really in-depth skills) in different things. I'm a technology nerd and I love taking cars and bikes to bits, but I have no idea how to fix my boiler, or grow decent veg, or draft a watertight contract, fly a plane, or build a wall that won't fall down. Those people that do probably wonder why everyone doesn't take the time to learn for themselves too, but I'm quite happy to let them do a much better job than I could. You can't know everything about everything - what's obvious to you is a mystery to someone else and vice versa.

Okay Couar, but hopefully you know what I'm trying to say.

A £1 claw hammer from the market puts nails in just the same as a [url= http://m.screwfix.com/p/estwing-24oz-leather-handle-claw-hammer-24oz/89928?cm_mmc=Pricerunner-_-Tools-_-Hand%2520Tools-_-Estwing%252024oz%2520Leather%2520Handle%2520Claw%2520Hammer%252024oz ]24oz Leather Handle Estwing[/url], but presumably the Estwing is a lot nicer to use.

Indeed.

druidh -

it's called marketing. If you didn't just accept that, learnt a bit about it and how to use it, would it make a difference to your life? Or do you just accept that it exists and is there to be used as necessary?

Cheers for that I'm reasonably aware of marketing and it's functions thanks, I also don't believe it's a proffesion beyond reproach or question, in fact marketing is all about constantly re-assessing the market and looking forwards to gauge consumers needs/wants/desires and realigning, develop to meet these, and then promote the output of that process.

Marketing is an important business and organisational tool (a Bit like a PC) But it has played it's part in the general dumbing down of our society too... To blindly follow where marketing leads suggests stunning a lack of intelligence.

Cougar

I'm often surprised at how many people are completely powerless with technology.

What surprises me more is how many of those people seem proud of the fact, too.....

I worry sometimes that advancing technology is making people stupid.

I think those points sort of summarise what I was thinking about yesterday (but failing to phrase very well for myself)...

I was listening to the radio this morning, and of course they were discussing our return to recession. The point was made that the promises of the UK becoming this great R+D nation that left the manufacture of our wonderful cutting edge ideas to those sluming it in the far east, hasn't really transpired, and that (Shock Horror) companies in the far east are leading in the development of various new technologies.
I can't help thinking that this lack of curiosity about the workings of our various technological purchases has gifted our far eastern competitors a bit of a head start in certain fields perhaps...

I do think the world needs aspirational goods to a certain extent, pretty Apple products, Aston Martins and the like are good demonstrations of what technology and investment in creative people can achieve, but I think these things should also drive understanding and peoples desire to try and make things even better...

Interesting that we seem to have zeroed in on Apple fans as the pinnacle of the "clueless technology consumer" that is a little unfair really, there are plenty of witless humans who are not part of the apple consumer dream...

Coming back to my original post the RasPi is very much a tool for learning and development, and that philosophy is something I personally really like (and it proves that technological curiosity is not dead yet I suoppose) it's not a finished computing device or a product with a set defined use, as such its the modern electronic equivalent of mechano in a way.
What it's users produce is only really limited by their imagination and curiosity, conversely the majority of Mac/Premium PC owners only seem to produce retouched photos, Vapid blog entries and justifications for their various indulgent purchases these days, despite owning the most powerful consumer computing tools ever... Perhaps the future is a bit brighter than the present after all...

cookeaa, have you read this? [url] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zen-And-The-Motorcycle-Maintenance/dp/0099322617 [/url]

Think you'd like it. It's essentially about exactly this topic. 40 years old but very relevant today. Just replaces "Raspberry Pi" with "Motorcycle"

Interesting that we seem to have zeroed in on Apple fans as the pinnacle of the "clueless technology consumer" that is a little unfair really, there are plenty of witless humans who are not part of the apple consumer dream...

The point I was making though is that I do like (some) Apple stuff, but despite the drooling stereotypes I am neither clueless nor witless about that kind of technology. I do understand what's going "under the hood" there, to fairly deep levels.

But... I don't [i]need[/i] to and I'm happy not to worry about it. In fact I'm really quite glad that I don't have to faff about with it.

So I guess that is only really one step away from just not knowing at all.

(and the same principle can be applied to pretty much any tech)

Doesn't explain why people are so seemingly proud of their ignorance though.

" Are mose people now just 'Technology Consumers'? "

Well ...

I don't know anyone who has built their own laptop, washing machine, HD TV, mobile phone, games console, mp3 player, digital radio, tablet, e-reader, car, dvd player, coffee machine, gps receiver, chainsaw, or any of the other things what are technology.

I don't know anyone who properly understands how most of these things actually work, or how to fix them.

So the answer is probably "Yes"

Personally, I'm not interested in 'technology' beyond certain things begin useful tools or a necessary part of life.

I don't know anyone who properly understands how most of these things actually work

[i]*puts hand up*[/i] Oooh oooh.. Me sir. Me!

or how to fix them.

[i]*puts hand down again and stares sullenly at the floor*[/i]

Trouble is half these things can't be fixed without specialist equipment and spares anyway.

Trouble is half these things can't be fixed without specialist equipment and spares anyway.

you reckon?

I only say that as I'm sat here typing this on what is by now a bit of a "trigger broom" laptop since I bought it 6 years ago I've replaced a broken screen, various bits of plastic housing, increased the Memory, and swapped the HDD twice. My only real 'specialist tools' being a couple of screwdrivers and some opposable thumbs...

thats only cost a bit of my spare time and some cheap spare parts off fleabay Vs pissing away ~£300+ to replace a laptop every time it takes a knock or starts to look a bit tired...

In terms of the 'looking under the bonnet' analogy what I've just described is more like just changing a flat or topping up your brake fluid, but then again binning a perfectly servicable computer cos' its older and a bit scruffy is like throwing away your car because its got a flat and you are too lazy or thick to look in the boot for the spare...

"Specialist tools" My arse! you're just a shiney objects whore, the sooner you admit it the sooner I'll admit I'm just a Beardy shed dwelling oddball randomly disassembling my family's possessions for fun*...

(*Tacit admission)

bought it 6 years ago I've replaced a broken screen, various bits of plastic housing, increased the Memory, and swapped the HDD twice

Yeah, but you haven't repaired any of that have you? You've just swapped in some new components and thrown away the old ones.

If you'd identified the blown capacitor on the hard disk controller and soldered on a new one THEN you would've "repaired" it!

you're just a shiney objects whore

My main desktop PC is 8 years old and also a trigger's broom: new HDD, CPU, motherboard, memory, heat sinks, fans, and three operating systems.

My old monitor is still sitting next to it waiting for the day I can take it into work and get one of the electronics guys to fix it.

My other half just asked me if I was going to get one - we've got an attic full of old computers so she thought it would be right up my street.

But I'm not tempted. I loved tinkering about with Commodore 64s and BBC micros - you turned them on, and could start programming the things in BASIC, even controlling output ports and the like. They were fantastic for tinkering with. The Pi? Well you can get it to boot Linux, then you're in the same Linux environment you can have (and I've got) on any PC, just with less power.

So I don't get the point really. A modern equivalent to learning BASIC would be to tinker about with web applications in PHP or something like that.

If you'd identified the blown capacitor on the hard disk controller and soldered on a new one THEN you would've "repaired" it!

I think it's been the same for centuries - some people are interested in how things work, some people aren't.
This won't go away.

The fact it's modular doesn't detract from this. It's just semantics.

Maybe, but to me throwing away an old bit of (expensive) kit and just plugging a new one in isn't [i]really[/i] repairing something.

Maybe, but to me throwing away an old bit of (expensive) kit and just plugging a new one in isn't really repairing something.

you suggested doing exactly the same with the capacitor. just on a smaller scale. Why not identify the element of the capacitor that's blown and repair that?

If you answer "because it's not worth it" you're just talking the same equation of cost, time, difficulty, skill and enthusiasm. The values are different, but the principle's the same.

Why not identify the element of the capacitor that's blown and repair that?

Because a little aluminium 10uF capacitor like this:

[img] [/img]

doesn't have have any "elements" to repair and typically costs around £1 for five.

People take deep interests (and have really in-depth skills) in different things. I'm a technology nerd and I love taking cars and bikes to bits, but I have no idea how to fix my boiler, or grow decent veg, or draft a watertight contract, fly a plane, or build a wall that won't fall down. Those people that do probably wonder why everyone doesn't take the time to learn for themselves too, but I'm quite happy to let them do a much better job than I could. You can't know everything about everything - what's obvious to you is a mystery to someone else and vice versa.

This. You could just keep going downwards, but at some point what you've got is a tool or part that people just want to get on and use doing whatever it is [i]they[/i] do- it makes no sense for them to roll their own, any more than it makes sense for a painter and decorator to make his own paintbrushes, or a mechanic to make his own tools. Of the people on here who build their own PCs, how many of them make their own capacitors or motherboards or whatever?

I work with technology but I don't really know much about computer hardware- it's just not the level I'm working at.

cookeaa - Member

Does anyone else see the world like this fella?
I mean growing up (and still to a fair extent) I constantly took things apart to understand, repair or 'improve' them, do people just buy black boxes of 'technology' with zero desire to understand it?

Has 'looking under the hood' to borrow an american term become a bit of a luddite thing?

eerrmm ... what are you talking about? The whole place is infested by these people who consume computing technology and being controlled by it.

What? Asking them to understand? Are you out of your mind or do you want to get fired from your job? That is not a question for you to ask. The trick is to repackage things in a way that attracts zombies to the products ... increase sales ...

Who cares if they understand that they are carry simple miniaturised computer such as mobile ... they do not have time for that as they need latest celebrities shite feed to them.

🙄

p/s: oh ya ... the term 'Black Box' should be banned ...

Personally, if any device of mine (household, vehicle, comms, IT, entertainment, etc.) breaks I'll have a good look at it and have a good go at repairing it if it seems worthwhile, even if it might take time and money.

If I can't work out what is up with it I'll consult the www or ask one of my like-minded mates(-which one depending upon what the device is) about it.

For me, there is a lot of satisfaction in understanding things and resurrecting something that many people would discard. A lot of my things are previously-owned and repaired.

I like to set things up to work properly and even if something isn't broken I might enjoy trying to improve it.

There have been times when I've spent time and cash on something that has not been successful, but I've almost always learned something in the process.

"Pride in ignorance" I have never understood.

ps. Those that say,
"modern cars/bikes can't be repaired at home" are mostly wrong. Take off the plastic covers and underneath you'll find an engine that isn't vastly different to the one in a Mk1 Escort or Morris Oxford, albeit with fuel injection, a few plug-in sensors ....and on-board diagnostics.

My lad's toy electric car - a couple of quid's worth at most - stopped working. My first thought was how great it would be to get rid of a useless piece of plastic, but my mate asked where my tool box was so he could try and fix it. Conversely I have an old set of road wheels in the shed waiting for the day I learn to true wheels effectively. One thing I'm not remotely interested in learning about, the other i am. Looking around the lounge I can see stuff that, even with all the time in the world, I'm never going to learn about it all.

How many "under the hood" peeps get under the hood of biology or geology or chemistry etc? Someone who may not care how an iPad works might be fascinated with the anatomy of a squirrel. I'm don't think it's sad or worrying that they're a technology consumer any more than it's sad or worrying that Steve Jobs never bothered to understand why Tufty had such a fluffy tail.

Difference is, I'm unlikely to find myself in a situation where at 3pm on a Friday afternoon suddenly my squirrel is broken.

If you drive, you don't necessarily need to be able to replace a worn piston ring, but you should at least know how to put petrol in it and ideally top up the oil and change a wheel.

Some people use this stuff day to day and at the first sniff of something they don't immediately understand, don't even [i]try.[/i]

This discussion is really about the level of abstraction at which you wish to work, operate and understand.

Every time time you move up a level of abstraction you loose flexibility in your use but gain a more "instant fix".

Personally I believe that you should always have a basic knowledge but firm understanding of the level of abstraction one below the the level at which you operate. This allows you to have an idea of the limits of your tools and assumptions that have been made allowing you to make most efficient use of your tools.

But I'm not tempted. I loved tinkering about with Commodore 64s and BBC micros - you turned them on, and could start programming the things in BASIC, even controlling output ports and the like. They were fantastic for tinkering with. The Pi? Well you can get it to boot Linux, then you're in the same Linux environment you can have (and I've got) on any PC, just with less power.

Personally the interest is is using / programming the pi as being part of a low power distributed system. I'm currently sat here learning about programming (AVR) micro controllers for a project I have. Perfect for many small simple applications but it need a central brain. With a Ethernet or xbee connection to a central brain will allow me to have a low power system. Using the raspberry pi as a central unit rather than a normal linux box will be,

1. cheap
2. lower power usage

but still have load of power and possibilities with all the tools available to linux.

If you drive, you don't necessarily need to be able to replace a worn piston ring, but you should at least know how to put petrol in it and ideally top up the oil and change a wheel.

Why? Because in this day and age you're unlikely to need to replace a worn piston ring (or fix a squirrel). Those who aren't naturally inquisitive will generally only learn how to fix things that are likely to need fixing or rely on someone else. Take Apple stuff again. I'm no engineer but I could go a reasonable way with a "broken" PC before having to ask an expert to help. As a very happy consumer of an iPhone I moved away from PCs because the idea of not needing to know how to fix something that doesn't break was very appealing. (After several months of Mac use I'm disappointed that I have had to fix stuff several times and call their support desk; they don't "just work" as well as iOS stuff, but that's another story).

Would I rather learn how to replace a worn piston ring or give my car to a garage and ride my bike instead? The latter without a doubt.

It's a cop-out somethingion, but people [i]are[/i] different. As long as someone cares enough about the "how" we will still see innovation and advancement; not everyone has to care...

....someone has to fix the squirrels

I posted this [url=

homage to 80 computers, adurino and radiohead[/url] on my facebook last night and got chatting to a buddy who can't wait to get raspberry Pi's to show his two young daughters what it's all about.

I'm in process automation. I run a hackintosh. The thing is I just wouldn't have the same mix of skills if I'd been born ten years later. I learnt more about coding on BBC's and Amstrads, and more about automation from technic lego than I did from my entire Mechatronics HNC. (Okay maybe that's hyperbole but the grounding certainly came from an '80s childhood)

Teachers at school seemed to have a fear of breaking out the hardware - I remember "the" 386 and the educational lego automations kit living in locked cupboards and being talked about in hushed tones. Hopefully the PI might democratise this a bit.

So I've spent my entire career "under the hood" I've got a broad range of skills (I probably wouldn't change my own piston rings, but I bet I could). It's rewarding, and you come to realise that modern life would grind to a halt without us doozers.

I love a glossy bit of tech as much as the next man, but to be honest I only enjoy using software that I can see has been lovingly crafted. To keep going down this path the kids need to learn the BASICs

most people have always consumed, very few people ever care about why. When the first cotton mills were opened, did anyone actually care no, just meant better cheaper cloth. when the first computers were created did many really care? of course not, a few did but they were vastly outnumbered by those that didn't.

We live in a world where tools are developed to make things easier, most people don't care how a tool works, i buy a drill i don't care about how it works, just that it makes holes in things.

i just hope theres going to be a load of 'new' programming companies and jobs out there for all these developers...

Oliver > well said. (-:

@roady_tony

There are two part to that stament.

1. Will we see any growth in the european economy? As a mature economy this depends on our interaction with depeloping nations and merging markets. This is the only part of the world econmy that ca serisouly grow. How grown consumerisum and property bubbles are only a ponzi scheme. Money has to come into an economay from outside. You can't have infinite grownth from within. Ofcourse utmalty the world is a closed economy but there is still some room left for growth to prop up our bullshit econmoic model for a while.

2. Is technology, programming, hardwear a worth while sector?
I'd definatly say so. It's an area more likly to grow globally than many other tradisional sectors. It is after all a sector of production not just a service industry. Hardwear and softwear people in the mordern technology industry analogouse to bricklayer, charpenters e.t.c. in the contruction industry. They actually do something, and create. Its not just people with mangment trainng manging other "managers".

I learnt more about coding on BBC's and Amstrads, and more about automation from technic lego than I did from my entire Mechatronics HNC. (Okay maybe that's hyperbole but the grounding certainly came from an '80s childhood)

True.
It's worrying the amount of engineering students I meet now who haven't really gone through the taking things to bits to see how they work process, or built stuff and are lacking a lot of basic understanding that would have been taken for granted in the past.
Whilst it's true at a consumer level that the knowledge isn't required because things just work, I think you do need that knowledge (or more importantly the intellectual curiosity to gain that knowledge) if you want a producer culture rather than a consumer culture, as the consumer model in my naive understanding of economics doesn't seem very sustainable.

Some expanding "softwear" yesterday:

[img] [/img]

It's worrying...

True. 😐

Some expanding "softwear" yesterday:

I know my spelling it terrible but I was on text based browser so tougher to check.

\end_poor_excuse

Personally the interest is is using / programming the pi as being part of a low power distributed system.

Yup, there are some interesting applications for it - I'm thinking of it as a brain for a Mikrokopter, for instance - but I don't see those applications as teaching new people about computers.

What we need is a new BBC Micro 🙂

My monitor probably has some melting capacitors in it, but i really can't be bothered to get a multimeter, decent soldering iron, various tools and then source new capacitors. It's a 19" and they cost £60 new.

But I did spend £7.50 on a new CCFL bulb for my laptop screen when that died. It was a nightmare job getting it fitted mind. I actually managed to source one with the connectors already soldered on which was a relief.

Back when I used to be a techie, I remember "upgrading" meant desoldering the 512kb chip on a motherboard and soldering a 640kb one on! When fitting a 100mb HDD meant you needed 3 partitions on it as the OS of the time couldn't cope. Nowadays you can upgrade someones laptop fairly easily and cheaply with replacement CPU/RAM/HDD to boost its real world capability and they look at you like you've just done something skilled.

I know my spelling it terrible but I was on text based browser so tougher to check.

+100 geek points for using a text based browser! 😯

Lynx?

No [url= http://www.jikos.cz/~mikulas/links/ ]links[/url], (not compiled with the `-g' option enabled, [url= http://links.twibright.com/features.php ]which is impressive if you do[/url]), I prefer it to lynx. It's my quick internet work around when at work and I can't be bothered to set up my proxy.

text based browsers are possibly [i]the[/i] most useful piece of software I have used when dealing with Linux/Unix servers.... and no other PC to hand.

Think I'd rather just use my phone!

The only time I've used a text-browser for any length of time was when checking that a website that I wrote worked okay on it.

Only used for downloading software - many 'important' linux software sites can be viewed very well just via text. Was very handy in the earlier days of Gentoo too...