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**Long winded**
I have recently found myself looking at cars, not to buy but learning about them...
The more I learn about current and older cars, the more it would seem that the days uber reliable diesels that could rack up half a million miles are gone. <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Because of DPF, Adblue and reducing weight to </span>achieve<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> better MPG...etc</span>
After looking at new petrol cars a lot can do great mpg and burn cleaner, run smoother etc. Is the longevity there? Looking at new cars with 3 cylinder engines where once they had inline 4s. Honda civic with a 1L petrol engine, Fiesta with 3 cylinder, Audi A3's with 3 cylinders. Are cars currently being produced going last into the hundreds of thousands of miles with little being replaced, excluding tyres and filters etc.
I get why it's being done to make 'them' more environmentally friendly by releasing less soot and NOx gases. The more I think about it the more it seems a-shame that we seem to be taking a step back in longevity. Surely with diesels becoming more and more expensive to maintain that surely their shelf life will tumble and more sent to the scrap yard is worse for the environment long term?
Bit of a long winded post but I think this is interesting.
Frequent short journeys = petrol, less frequent longer journeys = diesel, I believe is current wisdom.
No.
Plenty of reasons to continue buying a diesel for the next 5 or so years, and beyond if you are commercially minded.
Private, well then yeah you are going to be limited in choice because manufacturers have decided (on government instruction) to phase or limit the sale of sooty.
Australia has just banned diesels and Greenpeace are lighting candles in support.. so only one way this world is going..
Even that there EU are placing restrictions on usage in cities and such, so really it’s kinda like we’re being pushed down a narrow path with less MPG but cleaner (not really cos CO2) vehicles.
Choose well.. think of the baby robin you’ll save.
Hmm.. the old 'diesels go on forever' thing isn't necessarily because it's diesel. Simple engines go on forever. Modern petrols and diesels are both complicated things.
Diesels used to be simple crude things, which is why they were noisy and slow. Then they improved them with a load of new gubbins, and because the gubbins were new, they failed, and people didn't understand what to do with them (DPFs). However by now, they have figured out how to make them more reliable again, I think.
Petrol cars were then a bit rubbish to drive compared to diesels, so they added a load of gubbins in.... They may or may not prove reliable.
The Ad-Blue thing isn't new tech, it's been in lorries for years, and all it does is release Ad-Blue into the exhaust - not that complicated. It probably makes the rest of the system more reliable, since the engine can burn hotter and be less smoky. I don't think diesels are 'more and more expensive to maintain'. You just have to know about the DPF, pay attention to the lights, and fill up the Ad-Blue when you need to.
But it's a moot point anyway since engines aren't usually the thing that gets cars scrapped. Normally they just get too old to be worth much, so people stop looking after them and maintaining them. We would still be doing half a million miles in loads of cars if people weren't buying new ones all the time.
When you take an old car to the garage, they say 'it's not worth repairing this' meaning the cost of the repair is close to or more than the market value of the car. But the market value of the car is based purely on its age and how many newer cars are available. The actual car might still be fine, it's just that no-one wants it, which means it doesn't get fixed. Nothing to do with mechanicals.
There are millions of diesel cars around, it’ll be a long time before they’re ‘dead’, at least in the U.K. and Europe. The US is different, they never really took to diesel as a means for powering cars, they prefer big petrol engines, or smaller petrol for city cars, they’ve never worried about consumption figures, and with The Donald eviscerating the EPA and actively pushing back on improving fuel consumption things aren’t going to get any better over there.
The ‘dieselgate’ scandal was over NO2 in the US, not CO2, designed to encourage Americans to buy diesel cars, although the US truck industry was doing the same thing, although it had a knock-on effect here, it’s particulates that are the issue, and they’re being dealt with as development of diesels goes on. It’s such an efficient motor, loads of torque, great efficiency, ideal for longer commutes, not so good for regular short journeys.
I was seriously considering petrol for my next car, as I was only using the car for shortish runs with rare long journeys, but my new job involves a fifteen mile journey each way every day, so I’m probably going to stick with diesel.
I hope not, I'm picking up my new one Saturday 🙂
I've a non-adblue, 5cyl diesel of at least 15 years heritage/fine tuning to the exact model I have, and older versions are commonly on 250k. I'm hoping it's more reliable than most.
I also expect to own the car for 3-4 years, of doing 20-25k a year. It's already got 70k on the clock.
Frequent short journeys = Electric
Frequent longer journeys = Hybrid
Diesel is dead.
Frequent short journeys = Electric
Not bicycle?
Which Diesel? VIn?
simple Q , simple A - NO.
Nearly all new diesels seem to come with a tank of wee to cut down on the nitrous oxide emissions. Since they also produce less CO2 than the equivalent petrol car, they are presumably better for the environment.
Better to start with people that sit in car parks / outside schools / shops etc with their engine running while they wait or have lunch.
Well said Drac!
Not bicycle?
**** off! A bike? Where do you think you are?
The US is different, they never really took to diesel as a means for powering cars, they prefer big petrol engines, or smaller petrol for city cars, they’ve never worried about consumption figures
The main reason was the strict NOx limits imposed to prevent smog in places like California. They introduced such strict limits in 1997 that VW diesels could no longer be sold, which AFAIK is what made them develop SCR aka the Ad-Blue system for cars.
Simple engines go on forever. Modern petrols and diesels are both complicated things.
This.
Electric ones are the only modern cars I think you could buy and expect 10+ years of use without a big powertrain bill. Our next car will not have a petrol or diesel engine.
A lot of people with newer diesels seem to ignore ad blue top up warning lights and the DPF regen' lights and continue to their cars demise, no more restarts etc and turning them off mid regen'
But I was reading that something like car sales in the EU are about 54% diesel however that's forecast to fall to 46% (rough numbers) and some car makes, Jaguar and Land Rover diesel sales make up 90% of their sales.
Depends
Buying now with a view to the next 5-10 years of same vehicle ownership. No.
But, if your concerned about emissions locally more than globally and are likely to change vehicles fairly frequently and haven’t recently purchased some long haul flights then possibly yes.
Buying new or used would be pretty major factors in my decisions as well.
It depends on what application you are talking about.
Commercial vehicles: Won't die out for a good decade at least.
Big personal cars: will slowly get replaced by electric or hybrid petrols as the battery tech improves.
Small personal cars: Dead.
I've got a small car with a 3 cylinder petrol and that should last me long enough to get me to the time that electric small cars can do the range I need on a regular basis (~200 miles before charging). I actually fit the driving profile for having a diesel (journeys are usually 30 mins or more, very few short trips as I commute by bike) but the cost of maintenance of the current technology and higher purchase price made the small petrol a better buy over 100k and 7 years.
The actual answer to the question is no, not until the general public eventually learn that diesels for the typical short journey profile is not good. Sadly it will take a long time to make this happen as an awful lot of people think that a petrol engine in their SUV or 4x4 will be horrifically expensive. Add in that the majority of those types of cars on the secondhand market are diesels and the change in the public's perception will take a long time to change. The minority who buy new cars will lead the change with hybrids or electric vehicles but this will then take a long time to filter down the secondhand market, especially to the lower end. The key will be when the fleet buyers get shot of the first batch of fully electric cars that have done the rounds on lease deals in large numbers. I can't see that happening for a good decade once you take into account the number available (no big variety for 3-5 years or more) then add on the normal 3 year lease. These will then enter the secondhand market at the top end then take a further 3-6 years to filter down to the budget market. The current generation of diesels and petrol engines will be around for a good 10-15 years yet so I'd say you're looking at 2035-40 before the internal combustion engine market dries up completely.
Electric ones are the only modern cars I think you could buy and expect 10+ years of use without a big powertrain bill.
Nah. Don't agree.
Tell you what though..
The quicker commercial vehicles are tested to the same Mot as private vehicles the better.
Followed a belching behemoth of a Merc Sprinter (less than 2yrs old) belching black soot in clouds down the M3 earlier, vile..
2 years old, the thing was either knackered or driven within a few hundred to the red line in every gear..
And he didn’t use his indicators neiverz 🤪🧟♂️
A private vehicle doesn't need any MOT at years old. 😬
Old school engine technology for me reached its peak circa 2006 after that diesels became too complex for their own good and small capacity highly strung petrol engines started to appear. The days of lazy large capacity low stressed engines finished. I'm waiting for electric cars to come down in price so I can leap frog a whole swath of overly complex IC engines*
*I'm quite happy tinkering with electrical drive systems.
Frequent short journeys = Electric
Frequent longer journeys = Hybrid
So can someone recommend a vehicle to get me & my pikey caravan up to Fort William from North Yorkshire without having to set off 3 months before I want to get there, finding places to charge it up & wait 15-20 mins each time (& do some driving around while we're there of course)
For a budget of 11K.
Ta.
Frequent longer journeys = Hybrid
No. On a longer journey a hybrid is just an ICE lugging round an electric motor and a battery.
Short journeys and electric I agree with.
Modern engines are not less reliable than older engines, they're more reliable, and it's nothing to do with how the engine is stressed...engines fail not because of the components that are stressed - I.e. pistons, con rods, bearings, crank shafts etc., they fail when the bolt on periphery electronic bits fail...which are easier to fix...though not always cheaper and easier to diagnose.
I would avoid Diesels if you do alot of driving in built up areas...they're toxic and kill more people every year than any other environmental issue...the environmental technology only deals with stuff like NOX and other things and do nothing for the thousands of other nasty chemicals that diesel oil contains. So if you spend most of your time motoring along nice and efficiently then Diesel is OK...if, like most people, spend alot of time in traffic then Diesel is not the best option, for you or people around you.
A private vehicle doesn’t need any MOT at years old.
Doesnt it?
Are you sure?
Like really sure..
Becuse I thought the first mot was due after three years..
My point is commercial vehicles need them every bloody year after registration... they get hammered and belch sooty all over the road and it’s not nice at all.
Yeah, I’m going to propose that to the DfT..
Electric ones are the only modern cars I think you could buy and expect 10+ years of use without a big powertrain bill
Hmm, take it you've never worked with industrial motors then?
Ours is. Mrs TiRed put petrol in it for the second time. I’m watching the nice man from the AA pump it out. Next one will be a hybrid CRV.
The US is different, they never really took to diesel as a means for powering cars, they prefer big petrol engines, or smaller petrol for city cars, they’ve never worried about consumption figures
Where red I am a small city car had a 2l engine. “Normal” cars are 2.5 or more... everyone expects 200k out of a car I see low mileage trucks with 130k on them for sale for $15000
mind you it is hot as shit and apparently larger engines do better in the heat, my car in oz was 3.something...
life of car depends on usage. Small engine carrying 4 fatty or towing and the car will die quicker. Plus obviously how you drive...
There has got to be a business plan for leasing cars in Europe for 5 years then shipping them to Africa...
Pretty much as everyone else has said - diesels will go on in commercial and for some longer distance drivers.
The latest numbers for diesel sales - they are down ~30% - but private sales generally are down too.
Our next car will probably be electric (excluding another “mid life crisis” car) since it makes sense for some of our journeys. However this will only be when our 10yr old naturally aspirated petrol Honda dies, which might be a while. Since not changing cars is probably the most environmentally / financially sensible thing to do.
Big cars need torque and leccy motors produce even more than diesels but availability of charging points and speed of recharge will have to improve drastically before diesel owners switch to electric cars.
I can easily get 600+ miles from the 60 litre tank of my comfy estate car. My own bladder only has a range of around 250 miles at 70mph but that's still way better than an electric car and I'm back on the road in two shakes, not plugging into the mains for half an hour.
Diesels will still make sense for longer out of town journeys for a few years yet.
Can't understand why manufacturers don't explore universal fit cartridge batteries that live in a double skinned floor and are pulled out through a flap in the side sills. The weight would be low down and between the axles. Bigger cars = more cartridge batteries. Anyone could pull into a 'filling' station and swap their depleted batteries for charged ones in the time it takes to fill a tank. This works for cameras, power tools and e-bikes, just scale it up. Payment via a battery rental system plus charging costs.
Because the battery trays are over 200kg on even small cars like the i3.
Doesnt it?
Are you sure?
Like really sure..
Becuse I thought the first mot was due after three years..
Yeah, I missed the 2 out. 😳
No. On a longer journey a hybrid is just an ICE lugging round an electric motor and a battery.
Errrr! Yeah but it still uses both to return mpg while emmiting less pollution.
So can someone recommend a vehicle to get me & my pikey caravan up to Fort William from North Yorkshire without having to set off 3 months before I want to get there, finding places to charge it up & wait 15-20 mins each time (& do some driving around while we’re there of course)
For a budget of 11K.
If it means less caravans too I can live with that.
Errrr! Yeah but it still uses both to return mpg while emmiting less pollution.
Nope.
My Outlander did 35mpg and got about 270miles on a full charge and full tank on a run. It would be worse if you kept the battery with some charge.
The diesel that replaced it does 70mpg and about 800miles on a tank. Current hybrids are a tax fiddle that fool a weak test. The more fuel you burn, the more you pollute overall.
Electric for a short journey. Diesel for a long one, until a hydrogen fuel cell car comes along.
Nope.
My Outlander did 35mpg and got about 270miles on a full charge and full tank on a run. It would be worse if you kept the battery with some charge.
You bought the worst hybrid possible they're terrible and well known for it. Long runs in hybrid mode I'm getting upward of 80mpg with my Golf GTE.
Oh, hang on; when you said 'hybrid' you meant a particular make and model?
That's the trouble with sweeping generalisations; most of the time they are wrong.
No, I meant a proper hybrid not the joke they Mitsubishi produced.
Loved my diesels they were great and did excellent mpg of around 65mpg on long journeys. I thought I’d miss the power and the economy but not it’s not an issue which did surprise me that a electric motor can produce so much power.
I'll be very pleased if the popularity of diesels goes down. It means there will be more second hand bargains for me.
Always some win richmars
Dracs got some very valid points..
To some degree I took on what he said when I looked for a Hybrid, and I honestly couldn’t be more happy with mine.
When it comes down to choice it really is very difficult to not choose a Golf GTE.
I chose a different brand, but it’s a damn fine place to sit.
Currently averaging 63.4mpg... that’s gone up from a week ago from 62.8... yet I’m driving it the same and using the same roads etc..
I may have killed plenty of bugs on my journeys, but the Goldfinches in my garden are still there flapping away.. so I’m calling “no baby birds were killed in my ownership of my Hybrid” 😜🤠💪
Seriously impressive aren't they?
The next gen will be interesting to see how they've progressed.
Which one did you go for?
Some good balanced info here at least on the first page.
I travel all over for work and bike racing so I recently chose to purchase a mid size auto diesel estate, with a view that its a long term purchase. I did chose PCP due to the obvious get out of jail free card in 3 years, but expect not to use it. This is my “industrial car”. Journeys into city’s are always by train so no issue there.
The family car - 10yo Diesel Kuga - will be replaced next year. I can’t get Mrs K to decide on what car she wants (I have a grand plan for a 40th birthday surprise) but it will certainly be petrol and ideally be hybrid, as she uses it for school drop offs / local kids stuff and the occasional trip into Hampshire to meet our extend family. Golf/Focus/Mini 5 door/Peugeot 3008 is the current thought as we don’t need an SUV really, and as this will be her first ever own “nearly new” car I want it to be something she likes rather than just a workhorse.
I'll pass on the boring electric/hybrid cars for now whilst I can get 40mpg out of a 3l petrol engine. Can't say I miss the extra £20 a month I spend on petrol.
I can’t get Mrs K to decide on what car she wants
A match made in heaven.
I’ll be very pleased if the popularity of diesels goes down. It means there will be more second hand bargains for me.
Yeah diesels have apparently gone down in value by 5% secondhand
Krytz ya cheeky sod, this page has comments from me on it and how much more informed can one be ??
I ask you 🤷♂️💄
😜
I went for a Lexus NX300 SUV, the main selling point was I can get 3surf boards in it with the passenger seat flat and the rears folded. Bike goes in too with wheels on. 2.5ltr petrol Hybrid. But honestly the engine in it could be smaller IMO, well for me. They’re bringing out a small SUV UX, smaller and more like Volvos XC40 but only petrol or hybrids available.... one thing I do like about Lexus IS they’ve stayed clear of Diesel engines...
But I did look at Golfs, when I went there the dealer said stock for last year had sold out.. it was on my list though. Odd that the Touran they have no plans to make an E version... I find that weird.
Mercs were coming through in E models, but they were still flogging diesels to all and sundry and looked at me sideways when I asked about a C-Estate E version.. fine they’re coming through now but last year ? Nah.
Volvo too, the XC40 I wanted but that was only being sold (still is) with the same Diesel engine that was in my old XC60... that engine growls a bit and even then thought it a bit heavy and not very economical.. but pulling 2tons isn’t ever going to set any MPG stats alight is it.
I’ll pass on the boring electric/hybrid cars for now whilst I can get 40mpg out of a 3l petrol engine. Can’t say I miss the extra £20 a month I spend on petrol.
That's nice for you.
Yeah the Lexsus is lovely something I looked at but the prices were too steep.
Australia has NOT banned diesels. some manuf's, notably vw are stopping selling them there.
the new high mpg petrol cars are almost all very small city cars, but there are very few familiy class/size ones available unless you can go for brand new, and those have a premium.
also, tarring all diesel with the same brush is bad. if you fit the criteria for economy buy a euro6 diesel like i did recently (fwiw leon st ecomotive) guess how much tax is? ZERO.. and they are exempt from the congestion charges levied 'against' diesels. these cars spewing black smoke should disappear or be fixed as the MOT has been updated to look for that. be careful and double check which designation the engine falls under as some dealers misrepresent that.
(fwiw i do a 20 mile each way commute, mostly motorway and average 65mpg - costing me half what my old car used to cost me)
Ok, apologies for the misinformation. I heard that nugget on the radio.. they did mention VW in the article but the scope was wider than VW.
A match made in heaven.
😀
Her indecisiveness is caused by a total ambivalence regarding cars and the buying process though. Put three in front of her and she's decide on one of them on about 30 seconds - based on how it looks and drives and can it fit the kids in.
Anyone tried to order a VW hybrid recently...
Unfortunately there is a massive loophole (incentive?) related to benefit in kind in the current company car rules that pushes people toward hybrids (typically 13% versus 31% bik values). No doubt HMRC will close it once enough people have committed to hybrids though...
My Outlander did 35mpg and got about 270miles on a full charge and full tank on a run. It would be worse if you kept the battery with some charge.
The diesel that replaced it does 70mpg and about 800miles on a tank.
You're not comparing like with like. The Outlander is brick shaped, so the poor fuel economy is due to that not the fact it's a hybrid.
Hybrid power trains (or good ones) should be more efficient on long trips as well as short. They offset the inefficiencies of petrol engines, regardless of whether or not you charge them up. That's why the original Prius were more efficient even without having a plug-in capability.
Re smoke belching diesels - this is not intrinsic to the diesel engine, this is because something's broken (turbo or MAF or something) and the driver/owner has not fixed it. A broken petrol engine could be spewing pollution just the same, but you wouldn't see it. You'd smell it though.
Re smoke belching diesels – this is not intrinsic to the diesel engine, this is because something’s broken (turbo or MAF or something) and the driver/owner has not fixed it. A broken petrol engine could be spewing pollution just the same, but you wouldn’t see it. You’d smell it though.
Would that fail the new MOT? Petrols running rich or lean
You’re not comparing like with like. The Outlander is brick shaped, so the poor fuel economy is due to that not the fact it’s a hybrid.
That's funny. My Euro 6 diesel Outlander does nearly 50mpg despite being exactly the same shape as the PHEV one.
Ok, Perchypanther's comparison is closer - except the PHEV one is petrol, no? But if his new diesel does 70mpg then ScottChegg clearly isn't comparing like with like.
Hybrids are a mixed bag, it has taken a long time for them to become competitive with diesel and some, eg the Outlander, have just been all out flops and just bought as a tax dodge. That said, if you do less than 30 miles a day then they are an absolute steal used. The first few iterations of the Prius were also pretty pants, only place they really made sense were London due to the congestion charge and LA due them comparing the rubbish MPG to big US gas guzzlers.
The current crop of plug in hybrids eg prius, VW, Merc are all a hell of a lot better. But on a long trip will still most likely fall behind a good diesel.
Ultimately car size/weight is the biggest factor in all this, if we could wipe out all vehicles and start again with much smaller personal cars, separate infrastructure for goods vehicles to centralised hubs etc then we would be in a much better place in terms of being able to lighten up car design. I personally wouldnt care if all city cars looked the same and were made of plastic with big rubber bumpers. Also better cycle routes, maybe even some covered ones (wasnt that a Boris idea?) as that would mean more all year round cycling for everyone and of course better light rail/metro type systems.
I think the real fuel source dying a death is petrol. I hope that diesel in it's current form disappears too but I think there is much more incentive to find an alternative form of diesel fuel - some form of bacteria produced, zero toxic output format simply because the whole concept of the diesel engine is more efficient and more reliable and is used so much more widely than in just cars. We have just over complicated them with high pressure pumps, turbos etc. A well maintained and properly driven diesel will still out MPG and outlast any equivalent petrol engine.
I was lying on the grass the other day after a ride and happened to glance over to my car, it's a 4 cylinder, twin turbo diesel mercedes with over 200hp and at 7 years and 125k miles the inside of the exhaust is still shiny stainless steel, in fact I just popped out and rubbed my finger around the inside of the exhaust tip and it's still clean.The quality of the diesel engines is one reason I chose a Mercedes, personally I won't touch anything with a VW engine, I simply don't rate them for reliability or soot output. I know a lot of that is because they get dodgy remaps or are poorly maintained and ragged to death but you do tend to see a lot on the roads putting out puffs of black smoke but the point I am making is not all diesels are equal.
But yes, I hope one day all vehicles will be able to run with electric propulsion of some sort (battery, fuel cell etc).
Batteries are the current hold up, currently too heavy and too expensive as well as all the other environmental and safety problems. A 1st gen Leaf battery is currently about 10kg and £200 per kWh, a Tesla is about 6kg and £100 per kWh, those figures are coming down all the time and while the i reductions are getting harder and harder they should come and when we see 3kg and <£50 per kWh (only half the current production standard which is half what it was a couple of years ago) then I think there will no longer be any excuse for a new car to not be electric.
In the short to medium term,I don't think they are dead, just undesirable.
If you are driving say 20,000 miles a year, then it might be worth it financially, not environmentally though.
I have had a Nissan Leaf EV car for nearly two years now.
Much cheaper than petrol or diesel , about 4 miles per kw of energy.
Servicing is dirt cheap, no oil, filter , no cambelt, no gearbox.....much simpler.
The only real downside, is the range, about 80 miles before recharging.
More ev and hybrids will be sold in the coming years.
I looked at a Leaf last year, it was quoted as being one of the fasted depreciating vehicle ever and lease companies were really losing out. Then there was a lot of diesel uproar and a significant shift in the public's view of diesel cars. Also figures around how well EV batteries are lasting have really help bolster used prices and looking again this year I think prices have either stayed the same or gone up slightly as last year there was a lot of 1st gen lease cars coming up for sale.
there will be a second wave of cheap EVs though when the current 2nd gen cars come onto the used car market after a couple of years use.
One of the great things about EVs is you can check the battery health and when joe public gets to grip with that and starts properly checking the battery health it will really help boost confidence in buying used. I just hope that there is no way to falsify the information like the days of clocking cars.
If you are driving say 20,000 miles a year, then it might be worth it financially, not environmentally though.
Driving 20k a year in any car is not environmentally friendly.
I will also take unction about a hybrid or electric being 'better' - it is different. It moves or changes the source and type of emissions, impact on resources etc.
I bet the next big scandal is all the metals for the batteries in these things - where they are mined, processed, recycled or dumped. I also bet that the batteries longevity becomes an issue.
I still subscribe to the 'if you have to have it, keep it and run it as long as possible' principle (reduce first and all that).
Ok, Perchypanther’s comparison is closer – except the PHEV one is petrol, no? But if his new diesel does 70mpg then ScottChegg clearly isn’t comparing like with like.
WTF has like with like got to do with anything? Drac's assertion was that Hybrids are the best deal for long journeys. My experience says cobblers. And, of course it's petrol; isn't that the point?
All the furious backpeddling that "Outlanders are crap, I meant the Golf" and "It's a brick aerodynamically" shows how weak the initial point was.Not all hybrids are the same. Just like all diesels aren't the same, pollution-wise.
A Tiguan diesel will do 60mpg+ wihout much fuss with similar frontal area. It's not carrying a half ton battery, though.
There are other forms of pollution from cars that a lot of people don't even think about - where do you think all the little bits of tyre and brakes that wear down end up?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664766/
Sadly it is something that I suspect we will be very unwilling or unable to resolve and the pollution will continue. Bags, straws and micro-beads have all had a lot of recent press coverage due to polluting the oceans and ending up seafood we eat but tyres (plastics) and brakes (metal compounds) particles are micro and nano sized and end up in the oceans, our soils and even in the air we breathe. Shock horror bikes also contribute (remember kids, skids also pollute the environment!) all be at a much, much, much lower scale, obviously.
Electric cars will help the brake dust case as they use as much regen braking as possible.
Next is tyre compounds - natural rubber should be biodegradable but it is the other bits we mix in that are not. Also there is the source of NR to be concerned about.
Light-weighting - that will massively reduce tyre and brake output but at what expense if we have to move to composites?
Self driving cars - potentially a good route to reduce wear by getting rid of the human element.
Self driving, not personally owned cars - a double whammy as composites then make much more sense as the car could last longer
Charge while you drive - eg wireless power roads. Huge potential to reduce vehicle weight and the need for batteries but at what expense to system efficiency and impact on power generation pollution?
looks like the UK Gov are finally cottoning onto the above to:
https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airquality/brake-tyre-and-road-surface-wear/
WTF has like with like got to do with anything? Drac’s assertion was that Hybrids are the best deal for long journeys. My experience says cobblers.
Well, what car replaced the Outlander? Was it an SUV of similar weight? We're comparing power train technology here, aren' we, not specific cars?
Does a Tiguan really do 60mpg under the same conditions an Outlander does 27mpg? Forgive me for being a little sceptical as I've never heard of an SUV shaped car doing more than mid 40s, but I'd be pleased to be wrong.
@molgrips - you are right, mid 40's at best.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/volkswagen/tiguan-2016
Worse on the older model
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/volkswagen/tiguan-2008
Yeah, but a Tiguan is MOAR* brick shaped than an Outlander innit.
*Drag coefficient of 0.37 for the Tiguan vs 0.33 for the Outlander
I would love an electric car, but there are too many big blockers for me - price is obviously one, but the biggest one is trying to get one that would tow my caravan on holiday. Oh, and range too - most of my driving is local, but every now and then we'll cross the country or drive into Europe and I think that having a car that won't do this without a stressful hunt for a charger would not win my heart. My big-ass diesel Volvo isn't going to save the environment, but it sure makes for a useful tool for moving the bikes between events, and the family on holiday.
That said, Mrs Daern has a Megane Diesel and while she does far more commuting miles than me, the car rarely does more than 100 miles in a day and would be a perfect swap for an electric car...when the economics start working. As of now, the car owes us nothing (4yo) and does nearly 60mpg, so replacing it would have to be an act of conscience, because it sure isn't going to impress the bank manager!
We'll probably end up with one electric car eventually, but not right this minute.
most of my driving is local, but every now and then we’ll cross the country or drive into Europe and I think that having a car that won’t do this without a stressful hunt for a charger would not win my heart.
You could solve this problem with a diesel, but not one you necessarily own. I wish it were easier, and cheaper to hire a car for a few weeks. I think BMW were on the right lines with the hire club that you subscribe to, rather than having to find an extra £500 on top of your holiday expenditure.
Still determined my next car (or preferably van) will be electric. But that doesn't solve any of the other problems, like the fact that there's sod all room on the roads to drive the things! People need to spend less time thinking about their next car and more about genuinely sustainable transport. The population and car ownership is still growing, making all those cars electric is only solving part of the problem.
In the meantime I'm keeping my C-max (1.6 petrol) going for as long as possible. Forget "it'll cost more than the cars worth to fix it", even after a few crap years for the OH's fiesta it's still cheaper to throw parts at it than buy anything else (which unless significantly newer is going to have it's own list of faults and cost money to buy!).
Re smoke belching diesels – this is not intrinsic to the diesel engine, this is because something’s broken (turbo or MAF or something) and the driver/owner has not fixed it. A broken petrol engine could be spewing pollution just the same, but you wouldn’t see it. You’d smell it though.
You don't though do you? When was the last time you followed a modern petrol car and thought "that's running a bit rich".
I'll hold my hands up, my MG (from the 70's) is really bad for that as it runs right on the MOT test limit for HC emissions.
You don’t though do you? When was the last time you followed a modern petrol car and thought “that’s running a bit rich”.
I've seen a few, admittedly not as many as diesels. But most of the diesels I see doing this are vans, and there are so many vans on the road and they are all diesel, and frequently not owned by the driver who then doesn't give a toss. Also, if a car's running rich on the motorway you'd never know, but you can see the diesels even at 60mph.
Just thinking of some of the problems my car has had over the last ten years:
High level braking light
Door locks
Ignition lock
Secondary air pump
Thermostat
Coolant temperature sensor
MAF sensor
Radiator fan
Leaking air intake hose
Throttle body gumming up
Dipstick holder breaking
Ashtray lid breaking
Punctured sump
Three or maybe four of those could have happened to an electric car.
I can comment just from my local area, say a 7 mile square area. I'd say as a rough figure just from observation 70 percent of vehicles are diesel. That won't change anytime soon, as this area is 20 miles from the city. In the city (Belfast) it's about 40 percent diesels and 60 percent small hatch petrols or electrics. This is just a pure rough guesstimate. Maybe it's to do with our location or people's attitudes or needs, but diesel is still king where we are.
You could solve this problem with a diesel, but not one you necessarily own. I wish it were easier, and cheaper to hire a car for a few weeks. I think BMW were on the right lines with the hire club that you subscribe to, rather than having to find an extra £500 on top of your holiday expenditure.
IIRC, Volvo, Mercedes,JLR and others have introduced an 'all in' lease scheme - everything bar fuel included, and the option to borrow a bigger vehicle from dealer when needed, option to move up or down model sizes through the lease etc.
Three or maybe four of those could have happened to an electric car.
You think?
Still has a radiator (unless you don't have heating or A/C) which will need a fan for running in slow or static traffic.
Therefore still has coolant.
Therefore still has thermostat.
The only ones that couldn't happen to an electric car are the throttle, dipstick and sump. It would be more accurate to say three, maybe four couldn't happen to an electric car. Which have their own problems anyway. Wonder who is going to be "shocked" at the cost of a motor re-wind? Or a motor replacement after they ignored the failed bearings?
Nearly all new diesels seem to come with a tank of wee to cut down on the nitrous oxide emissions. Since they also produce less CO2 than the equivalent petrol car, they are presumably better for the environment.
Euro 6 diesels are not clean in terms of NOx.
^ I don't think that was implied; he said cut down, not eliminate.
There's some false economic in here; spending an extra £10k to save £300 a year on fuel. Doesn't work chaps
It does if you want to reduce your environmental impact.
Or if you want to cut your BIK tax bill.
"these cars spewing black smoke should disappear or be fixed as the MOT has been updated to look for that. "
Only if they've got a DPF. My car's got an older engine without a DPF so the old MOT rules apply to it (IIRC). Not that mine visibly smokes anyway.
^ Plenty of Mk3 Mondeos about still. No smoke, no poke.