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In the pub, can't find out via Google.
Are any books banned in the UK now?
Specifically things like the Anarchist Cook book?
I found a couple of people prosecuted, but not sentenced for possession of it.
Thanks!
Was the Anarchist's Cookbook ever an actual published book which could be banned?
... ah, seems it was, in the US at least.
I had it on Atari ST floppy disk in the 1990s, under the guise of "The Jolly Roger's Cookbook."
According to wiki- yes!
Banned in Australia
Was the Anarchist’s Cookbook ever an actual published book which could be banned?
Leaving aside whether it is a "book" if you have a copy then probably is illegal in the uk currently, sort of anyway.
It can count as "terrorist materials" (if you fancy chancing life and limb for something which is unlikely to go off when intended and likely to when not).
Its been used as evidence for convicting people of terrorism offences although I dont think on its own.
I'd hazard to say no.
And probably for good reason, we should learn from past mistakes, not hide from them.
You can't learn unless you understand, etc.
There's nothing to be gained by hiding from the past.
I’m pretty sure I downloaded a copy just out of curiosity, but I’ll be damned if I know where I put the file!
Banned in Australia
That's not really a supprise... did they not deny a new law recently that meant that the origionals don't have the same civil rights as the new white ones?
A Friend of mine of indian origin got called 'a darkie'. She didn't care as she was used to it.. but it really pisses me off, as a white guy...
These people are ****ing dispicable.
I’d hazard to say no.
i guess this is where it gets philosophical.
if you can be charged with terrorism offences for possessing a book does that count as it being banned?
That’s not really a supprise… did they not deny a new law recently that meant that the origionals don’t have the same civil rights as the new white ones?
Getting off topic but no the referendum was about having creating a "Indigenous Voice " to parliament/government in addition to the existing civil rights which, in theory, are equal already.
So banned films
But not actual list of banned books?
If you get a sentence for having the anarchicjts cook book- is that banned? I you have drugs and get a sentence, to me thata clear the drugs are banned.
Is there a list of- will get you in trouble if found in conjunction with... Books- a less snappy title than banned
Banned doesn't necessarily mean illegal. A book may be banned from schools, not sure if this is done at a national regional or local level.
Can't be arsed googling but I thought Mein Kampf was banned?
There is no such thing as a banned book.
The the printing press did away with that in the industrial revoultion, when the upper classes seeked to control knowledge.
Name a book.. I'll happily post a link to it.
There's a list on wikipedia (obviously) which says that the last book to be banned was in 1991- on obscenity, called Lord Horror. the ban was overturned in 1992, but you can't read it as all the copies were pulped and it was never reprinted.
Has the books you'd expect (as banned) as useful to criminals, Anarchists, Kill or get Killed, Put 'em Down.
Was the Anarchist’s Cookbook ever an actual published book which could be banned?
Leaving aside whether it is a “book” if you have a copy then probably is illegal in the uk currently, sort of anyway.
It can count as “terrorist materials” (if you fancy chancing life and limb for something which is unlikely to go off when intended and likely to when not).
Its been used as evidence for convicting people of terrorism offences although I dont think on its own.
It is a book, albeit mostly distributed as a PDF rather than a printed copy. And it is regarded as ‘information that could be useful to a terrorist’ and is proscribed under “Possession of terrorist documents, s58 Terrorism Act 2000”.
I know this firsthand, as I sat on the jury for someone who was found guilty of possession and dissemination of such documents (along with other things) and was jailed for a considerable time. There were individual charges relating to possession and dissemination of each document, and they were found guilty of all.
If you get a sentence for having the anarchicjts cook book- is that banned? I you have drugs and get a sentence, to me thata clear the drugs are banned.
Is there a list of- will get you in trouble if found in conjunction with… Books- a less snappy title than banned
In court we were told there is a list that documents found in the possession of defendants are compared with to determine if they fall into the scope of the legislation mentioned above. We were not shown this list, and I can’t find a copy of it online. But as that statement was given in evidence, I am assuming it to be true.
In the library where I work we are regularly accused of banning books just because we don't have a copy of it. The reality is that there are thousands of books we don't have as we have finite space and a finite budget.
There are people who will have a list of homophobic/racist/sexist/transphobic books and will go through libraries on line catalogues to try and find them. If they aren't there we'll get an angry email accusing us of being woke and banning books when the reality is we've spent the money on books people actually want to read.
Let's not forget that some of the books that were banned were damned good, eg Last Exit to Brooklyn and Ulysses.
Specifically things like the Anarchist Cook book?
I found a couple of people prosecuted, but not sentenced for possession of it.
So prosecuted but found not guilty?
The government doesn't need to ban named books, any book which contravenes the limitations placed on free speech, eg individuals are not allowed to incite violence, hatred, pedophilia, etc, will automatically be banned.
Weird, thought Mein Kampf would be banned, but available for sale on t'internet, weirdly we had to review some of the anarchists cookbook during my course, against the proven manufacture routes, some scary 'advice' in that thing.
there is David Britton - Lord Horror ebook on piratebay, but you have to install something to dload it, so i wont bother.
There is a big list of in thailand, like the king never smiles,
I guess there are levels of banning as well. There have been lots of cases in the good old land of the free (USA) where school or disctrict school boards have banned books. If you got back to the 50s/60s/70s I'm sure anything vaguley communist would have been banned.
But yeah banned in the UK to me would mean banned centrally by the UK gov.
This is the first hit on google. https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/50138/leisure_and_learning/1435/censored_-_the_books_they_didnt_want_us_to_read
Last page has an interesting satement...
Strict censorship has since ceased, and virtually all books banned have been unbanned. A 2007 era listing of banned books showed that none had been banned since 1998.
Yes the Anarchists cookbook was actually in print form and was available as a mate had a copy and I've read it a few times. No idea what he did with it as no longer see him. In a box in the loft i expect.
So prosecuted but found not guilty?
I have been on a jury that found someone guilty for possession of a very similar (derivative) text. They got eight years in total.
A number of the charges were “possession of material that could prove useful to a terrorist” and they were found guilty on all those charges. I paraphrase, as I can’t recall the exact wording of the charge.
Yes the Anarchists cookbook was actually in print form and was available
does that make it a book? I would say the definition of a book is it has an ISBN. I would say a good test if a book is banned is whether the British Library would let you view it - legally they should have a copy of every book published in the U.K.
i think the purpose of the terrorist legislation is to stop me rephrasing parts of it republishing and being Ok.
Last Exit to Brooklyn was a good book?
Thanks for all that!
I'm glad I never downloaded the anarchist cookbook when I was a kid out of curiosity.
Did I dream someone put a link to it on here?
So books aren't banned, but possession of certain materials can land you in jail. One such thing being a book.
I'm still not sure if it counts as banned, but that's a pointless wonder. Got book= jail is close enough to banned for me not to get or read said book.
From @jeffl link
I saw that, but have read about half of them. Mostly bought from books shops, hence my confusion if any books are banned in the UK now.
I sat on the jury for someone who was found guilty of possession and dissemination of such documents (along with other things) and was jailed for a considerable time.
Was context considered? Like "dissemination with intent"? Or was it simply "you own it, go directly to jail, do not pass Go"?
As I said, I had a copy of it on the ST. I'd have been, what, 16? It was disseminated far and wide, by many people. As a teenager it was a little bit taboo and exciting but we weren't terrorists, it was considered a curiosity, a laugh. Different times today perhaps, but as though any of us were actually going to pop to the shops with an ingredient list to go and make nitroglycerin.
Even back then we figured, the vast majority of it probably didn't work. Like, the phreaking stuff was interesting, but would only have been relevant to anything if I was in the USA in the 1960s. We might as well have been reading how to summon the dead using five candles, a catering pack of Saxo and a goat. We looked at it like how today you'd see Facebook memes telling you to hold down your finger (always effective on a desktop PC) to find all these people you'd never heard of who were secretly following you.
Methinks he doth protest too much.
Cougar admits to possessing & reading a certain cookbook.
Bensales says he sent someone to jail for this (paraphrasing 😉 )
Cougar posts long panicky paragraph about how it was only a laugh, honest guv, and we never really believed it anyway, and I don't even know where it is, and and
Suspicious 😉
Suspicious
Yeah, I always had him down as a wrong 'un 😕
does that make it a book
Ohh let me think. Black cover both sides, loads of pages in between. Title, foreword. I might be going out on a limb here but yup, i think it does.
Weird, thought Mein Kampf would be banned, but available for sale on t’internet
I remember seeing Mein Kampf for sale on the shelves of W.H. Smith in Croydon. I was particularly incensed as they didn't sell The Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels.
Presumably they thought Adolf Hitler was a more desirable author.
W.H.Smith stop selling Mein Kampf a while back.
Suspicious<br /><br />
key phrase in Bensale’s post is ‘amomg other things’
W.H.Smith stop selling Mein Kampf a while back.
I hate to be a grammar nazi here....
key phrase in Bensale’s post is ‘amomg other things’
"Other things" such as certain dodgy practices involving goats, that certain people seem to know a little too much about? Hmm.
It is a book, albeit mostly distributed as a PDF rather than a printed copy.
A fellow student on a Computer Studies BTEC during the mid 90s gave me a copy on a 3.5" floppy in .txt format.
I read some of the recipes but didn't have any need for bombs, and I cooking up drugs in my parents house wasn't going to happen!
and this:
Even back then we figured, the vast majority of it probably didn’t work.
If you squint slightly and extend books to published material, including websites, then you do start to see 'banned' or calls to ban. eg: on the Radio last week there was a heartbreaking story about this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67082224
but then where the sites are hosted overseas and just accessed by UK computers, there's limited that can actually be done. There are of course statutory instruments covering the download, etc., of child porn but I'm not sure what else is specifically in place to ban other websites and other contents.
Cougar admits to possessing & reading a certain cookbook.
I mean, it was a wholly differently-titled book, probably satire or something. Your Honour.
I'm wondering now whether I still have it. It's doubtful. I still have an ST but I think the vast majority if not all of my disks for it are long gone. What 3.5" disks I do have (other than PC disks) are for the Amiga, and I suspect most of those don't work any more.
Was context considered? Like “dissemination with intent”? Or was it simply “you own it, go directly to jail, do not pass Go”?
Context mattered but the specific charge was possession.
IIRC there were six or seven charges of “possession of materials that could be of use to a terrorist”, one for each document. Then there were another set of charges for dissemination of each document. Plus charges relating to possession of explosives and unlicensed firearms.
The possession charges, context didn’t matter. It’s black and white, you are either proven to have them or not. In this case the evidence of possession was unarguable, defence didn’t even try to defend those charges.
The dissemination charges required examination of the context and circumstances relating to the manner and timing of publication of the materials. I can’t discuss this as it would mean talking about jury deliberations.
Overall, I suspect a simple possession charge against a single document wouldn’t hold up. But multiple documents combined with the other offences, it just all adds weight.
So in the context of this thread, not exactly banned material as such. But possess a copy of the JRC and get caught making explosives in your kitchen? Yeah, possessing it is going to increase your sentence.
Did I dream someone put a link to it on here?
That was myself......Oops - apologies, didn't think it could possibly be an issue as a year or so ago there was a link to it on the BBC website in reference to a investigation/report into counter culture books so naturally thought posting it on an obscure middle aged mtb forum wouldn't be an issue, obviously middle aged mtb'rs are a social group to be wary of, gawd knows what these reprobates get up to in the garage late at night with compressed air and stans tyre milk.
A few years ago the DEA tried to ban two books by Dr Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin titled PIHKAL - Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved regarding synthetic compounds and TIHKAL - Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved regarding naturally occurring compounds in nature
Obviously the DEA got their arse handed to them, still got my well thumbed copies purchased in 1998
Essential reading from the Godfather of MDMA and the bible for wannabe psychonauts.
Even back then we figured, the vast majority of it probably didn’t work.
Expert witness testimony I listened to in the court case I was part of, was that the recipes and introductions being followed would produce viable explosives and bombs.
So in the context of this thread, not exactly banned material as such. But possess a copy of the JRC and get caught making explosives in your kitchen? Yeah, possessing it is going to increase your sentence.
That's where I was going with the question. I'd (perhaps naively) like to think that there's a degree of common sense applied both in terms of arrest, charge and prosecution. The accused wasn't standing in front of the beak solely because someone had got wind that they'd got a 'banned' book and the police had kicked their door in to drag them out. Rather, it's an easy win - as you say, there was no defence presented - when faced with someone who was already believed to be involved with terrorist activities.
Like, there are strict laws on carrying knives. But I'd like to think that if I had a chef's knife wrapped in a towel in the boot of the car along with big pans and a whisk whilst driving to a meeting with friends where I was going to be cooking for a dozen people, it might be handled slightly differently from if it was duct taped to my back under a hoodie at 1am.
Expert witness testimony I listened to in the court case I was part of, was that the recipes and introductions being followed would produce viable explosives and bombs.
Well, we never managed to get it to work. 😁
I dunno. Maybe we were naive. It just seemed ridiculous that it'd be in our hands so readily if it was real. I suspect with hindsight it was a varied mix of viable, hypothetical and hyperbole. The nitro one sticks in my mind, all around ice baths and salt and a thermometer and when you should run away if you valued your hands and/or house. Who in their right mind reads that and thinks "yeah, I'll try that"? (Though of course, not everyone is in their right mind...) It felt like a big old collection of urban myths with just enough fact to give the rest credence.
Who in their right mind reads that and thinks “yeah, I’ll try that”?
My guy purchased all the materials to make his explosives from Amazon, using his own account, and had them shipped to his own address. Then mixed it up on the hob in the kitchen.
After telling people on white supremacist WhatsApps groups that was what he was going to do, followed by posting videos of himself doing it.
He wasn't the smartest cookie.
Amusing anecdote of the day... did you know if you buy certain things to make a well-known explosive from Amazon, Amazon will recommend you the rest of the ingredients?
"People who bought this also bought..." ?
I once bought a load of ziploc baggies to organise board game components. It took me a minute to work out why I was suddenly getting suggestions for micro weigh-scales.
Well, we never managed to get it to work. 😁
Rumours are there is an annotated version where someone who actually understood chemistry fixed a lot of the recipes 😀
I never could nail the thermalite recipie, thanks for the tips!
possession of materials that could be of use to a terrorist”,
Yeah, but that could include pretty much anything!
John wick once killed a guy with a pencil. A ****ing pencil.
I remember making (single) nitro toluene in a level chemistry. Iirc, The ice Bath kept the NO2 lump added to just the one, do the same reaction at room temp and 2 get added (di nitro toluene), reflux at 60C ish I think was tnt. Our teacher was decidedly nervous they lesson.
I used to have a climbing buddy that said he'd worked his way through that PIHKAL book when he'd worked in a lab with access to the necessary starter chemical. I believed him.
An awful lot of chemicals from hard drugs, to explosives, to chemical weapons, aren't that hard to make. It's making them safely that is tricky. Remember Hitler chose not to use nerve gas like Sarin etc because it was so easy he was sure the allies had it all too.
I was watching some youtubes recently and considering making some sugar rockets with the kids..... until I realised its illegal, as sugar rocket fuel is classed as explosives.
Spycatcher?
There was a copy of the said publication doing the rounds at school (when I was a pupil). If we had gone all If, it would probably have been evidence.
I have demonstrated thermites. Usually copper/zinc but also the aluminium/iron famous one. It is rather tricky to actually get started. One of those high risk of failure demos.
See Spycatcher turned up as well. I remember going to a Meadowbank away game and there were readings on the bus. Think they were doing us a favour.
Like, there are strict laws on carrying knives. But I’d like to think that if I had a chef’s knife wrapped in a towel in the boot of the car along with big pans and a whisk whilst driving to a meeting with friends where I was going to be cooking for a dozen people, it might be handled slightly differently from if it was duct taped to my back under a hoodie at 1am
I stopped carrying a leatherman with a locking blade in my MTB kit, and bought a non locking blade multi tool.
Should be fine carrying it, but I do not want to deal with the consequences of someone deciding I didn't need a fixed/locking blade.
Easier to stick to the law than rely on opinions about the law
Easier to stick to the law than rely on opinions about the law
Yep, keep your future in your own hands, i stopped carrying a leatherman for the same reason, yes you can argue it was for MTB where you needed to maybe cut a wire, bend something back, or cut grass and stuff out the wheel/cassette, reality is, they'll just charge you and get you to explain that to a magistrate, not worth it!
As for explosives, they are not hard to make, but most items are monitored, there's a reason why you can't get decent fertilizer anymore, any book that provides instructions on making this stuff should be criminalised, just as much for daft folk who will lose a limb, all for making something to blow a stump in the garden or the likes, people aren't all bad, some are just inquisitive, and daft.
any book that provides instructions on making this stuff should be criminalised
That would have made my standard grade chemistry class illegal, let alone higher levels of learning. This way leads to the end of education in the UK!
Blair tried that - it was proposed that giving instructions in the safe handling of hazardous substances become a terrorist offence. I was training to be a Chemistry teacher at the time.
That would have made my standard grade chemistry class illegal, let alone higher levels of learning. This way leads to the end of education in the UK!
I'm on about step by step instructions for this type of activity, not banning thermochemistry, i have a fair few books on the subject, such as the chemistry of explosives, but these don't offer step by step instructions on how to manufacture an end product!
See Spycatcher turned up as well. I remember going to a Meadowbank away game and there were readings on the bus. Think they were doing us a favour.<br /><br />
when it was in the news, a friend went to visit family in New York so had orders to buy copies for folks in the UK. We read some of it - load of tosh. If it had been published without fuss in the UK it would have sunk without trace and 99% of the population would have been unaware of it!
Afaik, a lot of the ‘holocaust denial’ books were pulled off Amazon.
Dont know why Marx and Engels ‘Communist Manufesto’ would be shortlisted for any chop.
Their scope seemed to be meta-accounting, lifting the bonnet of the economy and seeing how it ‘works’, Haynes style.
Easier to stick to the law than rely on opinions about the law
This is what I was discussing with Ben just now.
Common sense should apply, but the problem is that it's low-hanging fruit if they want to collar you for "something." I think you're up to something, I can't prove anything, but oh look what's all this then? A locking knife is it then sir? Oh dear. Al Copone famously finally got caught and sent down due to income tax evasion, remember.
Which reminds me, I've seen this first-hand. Back in, wow, what, the mid-90s we were setting off in the small hours to get to a job halfway across the country. We were almost immediately pulled for the crime of being in a sporty-looking car at a silly time of the morning. We'd done nothing wrong but the driver had a smart mouth and the copper clearly thought "right, I'm having you." They had the three of us out by the kerbside whilst they went through the car. They went to the point of putting a tread gauge on the tyres (which was kind of amusing cos he'd bought four new ones like three days ago, prior to that he was driving round with Right Said Fred on two of them). Then they got to the boot, each of our toolboxes. Jackpot. "And you've got receipts for all these tools have you, sir?" Well, that screwdriver belonged to my grandfather, but he's been dead for maybe fifteen years so he'll be difficult to ask. I think by that point they knew they were reaching and sent us on our way with some passive-aggressive send-off or other.
It shouldn't happen, and that was half a lifetime ago now, but if they want to pin something on you because they don't like your face then , well...
I would think that if you've got one of these books that's banned because; criminal/terrorism whatever, and otherwise you're just Mr Normal, then nothing terrible's going to happen. If you're busted because of who your friends are, or the websites you're visiting, or the meetings you're going to or otherwise you seem like Mr Suspicious, and you've got this shit tucked under the mattress, then I reckon the cops are probably going to add possession as part of the charges.
Would ‘materials that could be of use to a terrorist’ include a toyota pickup?
Seems that a new ‘how to’ document been released https://www.wired.com/story/dxe-animal-agriculture-investigation-guide/
as for criminalising books or documents ‘on making this stuff’’ 🤣 this is not reasonable. I won’t suggest it is a slippery slope to banning anything you don’t like but … it is even less reasonable when the folks organising the legislation have a weak grasp on the intended consequences, let alone any thoughts on the unintended ones.
Would ‘materials that could be of use to a terrorist’ include a toyota pickup?<br /><br />
depends who you want to label as a terrorist that day.
Dont know why Marx and Engels ‘Communist Manufesto’ would be shortlisted for any chop
I'm fairly certain that I've got my grandfather's copies on the shelves somewhere. I have no plan to read them, it's just a link to a man I never knew.
We have 2 copies of MK in our teaching base, probably donated by PE teachers who see it as a teaching tool. It is a dogs dinner of a book and extremely difficult to see any coherent thread in it.
I would say the definition of a book is it has an ISBN
I've got loads of books without one...
I've also got Mein Kampf (it's not very good) and The Communist Manifesto, Mum has an early german language version that she inherited from an aunt, 1860's IIRC (though she can't read german). There's a load of other historical/political publications she got at the same time, most are in various museum and library collections around the southwest and a few went to auction. It was quite an eye opening collection, piles of 50s and 60's pulp scifi novels (pretty much rotted to point of disintegration) with a bagged 17th century copy of the st james bible on the top. Then some random documents from some 18th century court proceedings... Took months to get everything appraised.
I’m on about step by step instructions for this type of activity, not banning thermochemistry, i have a fair few books on the subject, such as the chemistry of explosives, but these don’t offer step by step instructions on how to manufacture an end product!
GCSE and/or A level Chemistry will give you enough knowledge to make some quite nasty explosives. And access to most of the ingredients. It's not rocket science.
A mate back in my first job used to make his own solid rocket fuel and explosives in his (large and remote) back garden.
He's a pilot now, so obviously never got caught!
Is Spycatcher still banned?
In my school when I was about 13 (early 90s) two floppy discs went around - one was the anarchist cookbook, and the other had JPGs of topless women. No-one got arrested as far as I know.
I also found PIHKAL (online) around the same time I discovered mdma (in clubs). I loved reading it, although I skipped all the hardcore chemistry bits!
Is Spycatcher still banned?
No, as of 1988. Weirdly, it was always available in Scotland anyway.
John wick once killed a guy with a pencil. A **** pencil.<br /><br />
Or a Bic Crystal. The head and neck have quite a few vulnerable spots where a thin, stiff, pointy object held in a fist, and applied with sufficient force could really spoil someone’s day. The pen, as they say, is mightier than the sword. John Wicks’s was probably a 9H…
Don’t forget, plenty of people have been killed by a single punch to the head.
as for criminalising books or documents ‘on making this stuff’’ 🤣 this is not reasonable. I won’t suggest it is a slippery slope to banning anything you don’t like but … it is even less reasonable when the folks organising the legislation have a weak grasp on the intended consequences, let alone any thoughts on the unintended ones.
In the court case I mentioned above, some of the documents were instruction manuals on making guns.
They were PDFs with actual size templates for sheet metal, and detailed lists of materials to purchase from any hardware store, so that a completely uneducated reader could make a gun at home with extremely basic metalworking tools.
These guns ranged from handguns to fully automatic rifles. Our expert witness actually made and fired one to prove that the instructions were viable.
I can think of no good reason why such documents shouldn’t be banned in the UK, when the end result of using said manual is also, for the most part, banned in the UK.
These documents are not present on the internet for amusement or scientific/engineering curiosity. They were published and actively circulated in Extreme Right Wing groups to people intent on doing serious harm to others.
You're going to shit yourself when you discover some of the scabbier parts of the 'dark web.'
Thanks to US law defining the receiver as the gun in law and allowing (broadly) anyone to make a gun there are very high quality descriptions of how to make them online. If you're in the US you can even buy a cheap, single purpose CNC mills to make a lower.
If you've ever seen a video of a Sten gun being disassembled on YouTube (see Forgotten Weapons or Royal Armouries for instance) you have enough info to make a 9mm submachine gun. It's about the simplest automatic weapon possible, optimised for production with minimal knowledge and tooling. You won't have dimensions but you've probably got leeway on e.g. the mass of the bolt. Ironically, the magazine would probably the hardest thing to get right.
Of course you then need to get ammo which is not as easy as popping down to your local Walmart in the UK.
I can think of no good reason why such documents shouldn’t be banned in the UK, when the end result of using said manual is also, for the most part, banned in the <br /><br />
Of a similar ilk. There’s a desire to ban 3d printer plans for firearms circulating atm;