[Closed] Apprenticeships limited to under 25s - legal?

If it's a charity and the funding is ringfenced

No funding = no job .

Seems somewhat pointless to waste your time given that in the current market you'd think they will be saturated with candidates who have not ignored the criteria to find some other reason that isn't discriminatory to not consider someone who is over age.....

Seems somewhat pointless to waste your time given that in the current market you’d think they will be saturated with candidates who have not ignored the criteria to find some other reason that isn’t discriminatory to not consider someone who is over age…..

Yes that is what I thought as well. You can refuse someone a job for an illegal reason but give the applicant a legal reason why...

Thing is it isnt listed as a criteria as such, its just listed under "things to consider".

I doubt it's illigal given that the funding for apprentice ships via gov sources is stopped at 25.

Over 25 either it's funded by the company or you'll be funding it your self.

https://www.acas.org.uk/national-minimum-wage-entitlement

https://www.gov.uk/become-apprentice/pay-and-conditions

Paton - why are you quoting those links, they don't answer the question!

It's what he does. Will be a YouTube video next.

I'm.not convinced he isn't a scraper bot sent here from the future to post random links

I doubt it’s illigal given that the funding for apprentice ships via gov sources is stopped at 25.

Is it?

Unless it's changed very recently, businesses have to pay a levy to the government if their payroll is over a certain size (£3m IIRC). They can either spend that on apprentices, nominally boosted by the government, or lose it. This is not "government funded" in any sort of practical sense and I'm not aware of any age restrictions on hire. I suppose there could be, but if so then no-one told me.

If you're not levied then it's basically the other way around, the government pays most of it and you pay a nominal top-up fee (I think it's like 5%). I know very little about this as back when I had apprenti we fell into the previous category. So this may be age restricted, I've no idea and would have to go googling.

Charities may well be a special case where none of this applies, again that's not something I know anything about.

I did a quick look at those links and can't see an upper age limit to apprentices per se, but different funds may be able to stipulate tighter bands.

My company has a very active apprentice program, I can ask Monday if there are specific rules if no-one knows by then.

I'm 51 and I've just started a Level 4 apprenticeship.

I assumed that they asked me to wear a school uniform for the interview for bizarre sexual reasons 🤷‍♂️

The rules around apprenticeship funding changed about 4 years ago with the introduction of the Apprenticeship Levy. historically, over 25s received no Government funding and over 19 starters only 50% but this has changed. The funding for an apprenticeship is only about a third of what it costs and employers must pay the wage/employee costs - perhaps this is where in the OPs case they’re trying to save money ie paying minimum wage. I used to manage the funding and established some programmes in my old job - we used to hire the best candidates, regardless of age.

My wife wants to do an apprenticeship but it seems a lot are for under 25’s only.

Surely all women are 21 when asked.

I doubt it’s illigal given that the funding for apprentice ships via gov sources is stopped at 25.

Ahem. No it's not. Purely anecdotally of course but I'm 36 and unless I'm being spun an eloborate prank I only 6months away from not regretting starting.

Funding from Skills Development Scotland, time off provided by employer.

Ok having looked it up it seems that currently(it's been a while since I had to worry about it) funding to employer reduces when you reach 25 rather than stops.

Unless it’s changed very recently, businesses have to pay a levy to the government if their payroll is over a certain size (£3m IIRC). They can either spend that on apprentices, nominally boosted by the government, or lose it. This is not “government funded” in any sort of practical sense and I’m not aware of any age restrictions on hire. I suppose there could be, but if so then no-one told me.

Not sure which of the 4 nations the OP is in, but I believe there are slightly different rules for each. Its a bone of contention because our company would rather spend the levy in a particular way that would be possible in Wales but is not in Scotland...

OP - is it a role in Leicester by any chance?

I've this exact job advert out at present, ring fenced training role for under 25's, working in outdoor learning for a national charity....

I'll have to go fire up work laptop to get the exact information, but we've had legal advice and with with funder advice that it is legal.

Think it’s very much dependent on location. Know Scotland has different funding for some apprenticeship than England.

I’m lucky enough to be part of the way through an apprenticeship starting at 32.

The only difference in age is the wage that goes alongside it.

She could email them to ask if she would be considered.

OP – is it a role in Leicester by any chance?

I’ve this exact job advert out at present, ring fenced training role for under 25’s, working in outdoor learning for a national charity…

It was for the National Trust. Wasn’t sure on location TBH.

Anyway we phoned up the gov.uk apprenticeship helpline number - they were excellent and very helpful - to find that it’s above board. Basically if the NT are funding the apprenticeship - which they think they are from what they could find out - then they can stipulate what they like.

So quite disappointing but we aren’t going to spend hours on the application when we got that advice.

She is trying to start her own illustration business but looking at other options - working in the outdoors mainly but there isn’t anything about really which is quite disheartening. She was meant to get help with how to start her own business but it was useless the help she got, she was also meant to get some startup money for expenses for it but her job centre contact isn’t getting back to her so we’ve no idea what’s happening there. Unemployment benefit stopped last week so hello 2021!!!!

She could email them to ask if she would be considered.

Good idea but she saw it too late to ask, app is due tomorrow.

I’ll have to go fire up work laptop to get the exact information, but we’ve had legal advice and with with funder advice that it is legal.

Well if it is legal it’s rubbish. I’d rather take on someone a bit older who has experience of work and now knows what they really want to do rather than some kid who’s going to want to move on ASAP as soon as they see more money or something more interesting. Seriously give my wife an interesting outdoors job working in the countryside and she will be loyal to her retirement date (or maybe longer!).

Shame the app date is tomorrow, for the sake of handing in a CV and a well worded letter I think it’s worth a go. 2 hours of your life if her CV is up to scratch.

Good luck to your wife.

I’d rather take on someone a bit older who has experience of work and now knows what they really want to do rather than some kid who’s going to want to move on ASAP as soon as they see more money or something more interesting. Seriously give my wife an interesting outdoors job working in the countryside and she will be loyal to her retirement date (or maybe longer!).

Can I ask what your wife does/did at present?

I’d rather take on someone a bit older who has experience of work and now knows what they really want to do rather than some kid who’s going to want to move on ASAP as soon as they see more money or something more interesting.

This is the problem. With a lack of jobs (and getting worse) for young people, coupled to the recent drive to increase the proportion going into Higher Ed, we need training schemes and apprenticeships that can upskill new entrants to the workforce with practical, vocational skills, and give them (subsidised) opportunities that are desperately lacking.

And not all youngsters are as ****less as you'd think - we have a young lad in my Dept, he came after A levels, did a proper organised apprenticeship rotating around departments, to gain a broad range of science techniques and has now joined us where he's tearing up trees doing real hands on science for the PhD's while they scratch their heads and work out the theory and what the results mean.

Can I ask what your wife does/did at present?

20 years in retail (she was a visual merchandiser in M and S)
1 year insurance investigator - good at it but it wasn’t for her, she’s not a sitting at a PC writing reports all day person!
Currently painting/illustrating but not got anywhere yet with that.
Volunteer catering team leader for a charity
Volunteer children’s leader

Honestly she is the most hardest working person I know, she puts me to shame, she really does. I think if she found a job she loved, particular one with nature/wildlife/outdoors, Id never get her to come home!

Pay isn’t important at all.

And not all youngsters are as ****less as you’d think

I know, we had some 18 year olds in my last job as a summer job and they were amazing, they were embarrassing us normal staff!!

I always feel sorry for younger people coming into the workforce - especially of late (things didn't seem exactly wonderful pre-2020 either).

I think it's good that there are schemes especially setup and reserved for younger people.

20 years in retail (she was a visual merchandiser in M and S)

Um, is that a fancy way of saying "window dresser"?

I’d rather take on someone a bit older who has experience of work and now knows what they really want to do rather than some kid who’s going to want to move on ASAP as soon as they see more money or something more interesting.

You're obviously biased by your situation, but I'd wholeheartedly disagree, there's little enough decent career paths out there for kids as it is, without folk deciding in later life that they fancy a change.

And my old company went down the nature apprenticeship route, they all ****ed off to the rigs chasing money.

Yeah, you're missing the point of apprenticeship schemes, it's not to get the bestest hardest working person ever, it's to give young people a chance.

I think it’s good that there are schemes especially setup and reserved for younger people.

Wholeheartedly agree.

I know of companies who won't even take on.their apprentices at the end of their training sending them. Out to find jobs to make.room.for the next cohort.

They see the value in training workforce

Yeah, you’re missing the point of apprenticeship schemes, it’s not to get the bestest hardest working person ever, it’s to give young people a chance.

None of the websites say that, it’s to train people in a trade and give them qualifications at the same time as practical experience. Nowhere does it say it it to give young people a chance.

You’re obviously biased by your situation, but I’d wholeheartedly disagree, there’s little enough decent career paths out there for kids as it is, without folk deciding in later life that they fancy a change.

Whereas there is nothing around for older people who can’t get work and need to retrain. No wonder there’s so many older people on long term unemployment.

She can’t get another job in retail as that sector has been decimated, the insurance investigator job she couldn’t really do despite trying as her anxiety issues became really severe - it seemed decent when she started it but it became online only when lockdown came and looks like it’ll stay that way.

It’s not because she “fancies a change”, she just wants a job. Preferably in something she likes to do.

Um, is that a fancy way of saying “window dresser”?

No. And I think she would be very much insulted if you said that to her face.

@b230ftw

Some thoughts from someone who has employed an older employee or two into outdoor education industry.

Age shouldn't be an issue, in fact as you rightly point out, it can be a big benefit. I spent 15 years in outdoor learning, went away and had to fight way back in as so few employers recognised the benefits I could bring.

However some outdoor jobs are very physical, relentless in the weather you're out in, intense through busy periods etc. There are many in outdoor jobs who hit 50 with a crumbling body. That across outdoor education, rangers, laborours etc.

Secondly we work with a lot of young people, and we've a huge need for diversity of people in the industry. Traditionally it's a white, male and middle class game, and I'm one of them. While I'm adaptable and relatable, and have some insight into the challenges they face. If you're wife's looking at education, then she needs to have really thought about this and found insight and experience. One of the reasons we have our training role at the moment is to attract a more diverse workforce for the next 50 years.

Outdoors, be it education, environmental, health, farming (and so on) still has specialist knowledge, skills and many areas need a deep passion. Now apprentice and training posts will develop that. However, I think as an older person many would look for a significant passion in that specific area. Otherwise she's one of the other 40-something (mainly women) who approach our company every week who want what's perceived as a nicer job and a change of career.... She needs significant volunteer experience in the relevant area that she wants to go into - and a demonstrable interest in spending her own time outdoors somehow.

There's a few big national organisations who getting to know, volunteering with and generally getting to know the industry would potentially pay dividends. Go see if you can help out with NTS, Groundwork, TCV, YMCA, RHS are a few that spring to mind.

There's a few qualifications around - would she go back to college or university? Could she self fund some simple certificated short courses?

I would also suggest that your wife needs a stronger reason for a move than 'I don't like my job'. If I read her CV or interviewed her I would want a positive reason.

I'm on record with this before - please don't come into our industry, which already has an issue of low wages and low perceived skill levels to match - and offer "I'll work for free/minimum wage". It's not helpful to those of us trying to earn a real living or how the industry is perceived. It devalues your wife's skills and experience too.

With these apprenticeship or training roles you are up against it. Our funding is restricted to under 25's. To take anyone else on would cost us upwards of £40k - she's got to be able to make that argument.

I've fought my way back in, at a senior level, after two years of trying.

I've taken on a 54, a 42 and a 40 year old outdoor instructors at a residential centre. Two were ex-teachers, all had significant outdoor instructor experience, one through a series of international expeditions with British Schools Expeditions Society. I've just taken on an experienced teacher and flood manager(!) to lead some of our projects. I had a 33 year old apprentice in outdoor education, who had a decade of outdoor work like fencing or footpath building and a passion for canoeing and Munro bagging.

It is possible - but I wouldn't be pushing for jobs aimed at young people - I'd look to create a skill set and interest in a specific area, and network with the organisations local to you.

We've got more jobs going up this week - 8 in total.

https://www.ltl.org.uk/work-for-us/

Whereas there is nothing around for older people who can’t get work and need to retrain. No wonder there’s so many older people on long term unemployment.

Yes there is, there's apprenticeships, as stated above, I just said I disagreed with it, that's all.

No. And I think she would be very much insulted if you said that to her face.

I wasn't actually belittling window dressing. It's your choice to see it that way.

https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/visual-merchandiser

Has window dresser as a synonym, so... take insult if you wish, I guess.

Matt - thanks for that, but it does make depressing reading. We can’t afford to pay for any courses (we’ve looked at a few and they all seem to be thousands of pounds each) and she doesn’t have the experience you suggest she might need, voluntary or otherwise. We can’t really afford for her to be travelling various places for volunteer work, we’ve been looking for volunteer placement stuff and i can’t find anything within daily travelling distance of where we are in West Yorkshire anyway. Since she lost her job our finances aren’t great, I’ve managed to get a new better paid job so we arent struggling but we don’t have much spare.

I had a 33 year old apprentice in outdoor education, who had a decade of outdoor work like fencing or footpath building and a passion for canoeing and Munro bagging.

This is what I’m up against. This person obviously had time and money to do all these things in the past which puts them in a better position now. How does someone like my wife get to this? I can’t see how it can be done now.

It’s really getting me down as I’ve seen her passion to work outdoors but it seems doors just get shut on her all the time. I don’t have the heart to say it will never happen to her, she’s dreamed about it for decades but I can’t see it happening. ☹️☹️ We have been looking for opportunities for a couple of years now.

I wasn’t actually belittling window dressing. It’s your choice to see it that way.

There was absolutely no need to comment in the first place was there? You’re the one who tried to sound clever, if you can’t see how your comment was belittling you need to have a chat with yourself.

If your wife has such a passion for outdoors, how come she hasn't been volunteering / training / clocking up rides or walks for the past decade?

Even my 18 year old apprentices at the outdoor centre could show hill days, volunteering with cubs and at least one modest certificate such as a first aid or 3* kayak.

Sorry to be blunt. I think you need to be realistic.

If she really wants to do this, she needs a job, any job, and then spend the next year or two getting that outdoor leisure experience, volunteering at the Guides and showing she's determined for this. This is the deal breaker, not her age or other transferable skills, for me as a recruiter.

I and our HR person have an average 5-10 emails or calls a week from people in exactly your wife's position. And those calls are growing month on month.

This person obviously had time and money to do all these things in the past which puts them in a better position now

An ex bosses son managed to break into the outdoor instruction world.

He lived in a Berlingo for 2 years traveling around taking ANY gig he could get his hands on even if it was at a loss.

It's a game that folk want to be in . Nee oversubscribed.and it's also very romanticised and alot of older folk get into and find it's not what they imagined at all.

Can I ask what exact area of work does she want to be in?

I think it’s good that there are schemes especially setup and reserved for younger people.

This, I’ve just been told that my 12 years experience in a role I was applying for (IT technical sales support) wasn’t enough, compared to other applicants. They were offering just above minimum wage for this role.

I really wouldn’t want to be new to the job market right now.

If your wife has such a passion for outdoors, how come she hasn’t been volunteering / training / clocking up rides or walks for the past decade?

Sorry your last reply seemed to suggest she needed more than just lots of walking/riding experience the way I read it. She has lots of walking/riding miles under her belt but that’s it. We’ve looked at volunteering stuff over the last couple of years but we don’t know where to look and haven’t been able to find anything she can travel to yet.
For example we looked at wildlife charities (RSPB the main one) but all their sites are too far away to travel to for us (nearest RSPB place is other side of Leeds to us in Huddersfield). There doesn’t seem to be much in our corner of West Yorks. I would have never have thought that volunteering with Scouts or whatever would be useful, she is already a kids leader (voluntary) at our church where we do lessons/group stuff but nothing outdoorsy, is that any use?
I’m trying to not sound negative, and I want to be positive about it but whenever I start to look at options I just seem to be up against a brick wall.
Your reply on the last page has been the most useful thing I have read in the last couple of years which may help her... so thanks for that.

She really isn’t some spoilt woman who wants a fancy job in the countryside to look all “Country Living”, she’s a grafter for sure!!

She is often in floods of tears about her job situation, especially after she chats to people who like their jobs, as she’s never had that herself.

I hear you, and I can't imagine the stress she feels.

It is a tough job market and industry at the best of times. At others have said, the job market generally is awful at present.

IMO she should get *any* job in an attempt to earn some money and ability to move towards this outdoor work.

There doesn’t seem to be much in our corner of West Yorks. I would have never have thought that volunteering with Scouts or whatever would be useful, she is already a kids leader (voluntary) at our church where we do lessons/group stuff but nothing outdoorsy, is that any use?

Yes. If outdoor [b]education[/b] is the area she wants to be in, then any volunteering with children or youth would help. Sunday school, reading with kids in school, Duke of Edinburgh with the secondary school, scouts, bike club youth coaching... There's also a few wildlife trusts around West Yorkshire.

Of course the double whammy at present is that I've not completed our DofE expedition last year with BB's, and half of the above is on zoom at present...

As I said previously, I used to work in a team that looked after early careers for a big corporate, ran some of the funding / pilot programmes and worked on a number of cross-sector projects that were the precursor to the new apprenticeship schemes introduced in 2017. We'd typically recruit 500-1,000 apprentices each year across a number of UK sites. These were both traditional level 3/engineering apprenticeships as well as degree-level and masters level. We'd get about 8k/trainee from Government for a L3, but the total cost for each apprentice including wages was about £80k over the 42 months. We had 90% retention after 10 years - UK average is only 1 in 3 apprentices complete their training. For graduates, you're lucky if you still have half after 5 years. Consequently, when recruiting we'd get about 100 applicants for each job - we simply stop recruiting because experience told us that 600 would meet the minimum criteria, we'd then take 300 to an assessment centre and 1 in 3 would be offered a job - in most cases, all 300 were good enough, we just didn't have enough places and processing more applications was just wasting money. We did set up a programme to redirect screened candidate to other employers and offered to train them - the response from other employers was under-whelming and the nub of the problem in the UK - most employers don't want to pay for good training. The other problem is the stove-piping of money in Government between tertiary/secondary, FE (including apprenticeships) and Higher (Universities) and there being few effective mechanisms to create flexible learning models more suited to modern careers.
In terms of the OP, if the recruiting co is quibbling about £8k's worth of funding then they really don't sound like a great employer.

In terms of the OP, if the recruiting co is quibbling about £8k’s worth of funding then they really don’t sound like a great employer.

I don't think that's really fair. £8k is a sizeable amount to some employers, whether or not they can afford it isn't a measure of how good an employer they will be. If it's a charity, then that extra £8k might well have to come out of a pot where it would otherwise help many.

Also, I don't think they're saying that that is the reason. Perhaps they just value the chance to create an opportunity for a someone in a generation that looks like it's getting a very raw deal.

I once heard a quote from someone who owned a building company along the lines of “we can’t get decent brickies/joiners etc” but they didn’t want to take on apprentices. Complain about the state of training but not willing to train themselves.

Has she thought about gardening. It’s fairly broad from being someone who mows and tidy up old people gardens to having a good knowledge of plants and design. It’s far from Chelsea flower show. Lady up the road employs a fair few from design through to build.

Whereas there is nothing around for older people who can’t get work and need to retrain. No wonder there’s so many older people on long term unemployment.

Heath and social care. You can get a taste at a basic level then train if you want to. Dunno the latest state on bursaries for full time training but oddly enough you can train as a nurse part time thru a variety of schemes. You can do HNC ( or whatever its called now) and HND completely while working that then gives you entry into nursing training at 2nd year level

there are all the PAMs - professions allied to medicine - physio Occupational therapist, podiatrisat

Older folk are more than welcome into this world. Indeed often preferred Many routes in and jobs from 2 weeks on the job training to post grad entry!

There's some good info on the thread already, especially some of the harder elements of gaining access to a paid role "outdoors" and the tough reality of many of the jobs. I'm in ecology and as she has an interest in wildlife, I can say that my world of work isn't that different to outdoor education - a large number of people volunteering and snapping away at any paid role in the industry. I can however say that this voluntary base has both young people and people in a career change/ retirement situation.

Once in work, there are a few strands to follow early on (huge generalisations) - a ranger-type role which would be very hands on and physical; a travel-type role which may not suit your circumstances; and a consultant/researcher type role, which will bias study and report writing (which you said she doesn't like). So that sounds like a tough and potentially not very rewarding direction.

The one thing I'd suggest in ecology is user pressure research. There is an ongoing area of study researching and surveying how people affect designated sites etc, including travel and how they use them. I can see a more experienced person in face-to-face skills and who is approachable could have an angle there and is more niche than most people going in who want physical or protected species work. Check out companies like Footprint Ecology who specialise in this kind of thing as part of your looking around.