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But if you pair Finder with Spotlight (they’re kind of the same thing) then IMO Mac OS has a huge advantage.
Windows has that now, I use it on both platforms for most things.
Who’d have thought it was all down to personal preference.
Well it is, of course, but there's something else going on here. If you have £1500 to spend then yeah, you can go either way and it doesn't matter. But what if you only have £500 to spend? Because of the way people bang on about Macs as the only good computer, you might feel pressured into trying to find some more money for that Mac or borrowing it, or buying second hand with all the issues that entails. When a PC would be fine. Or you might even get a £300 PC and keep that much needed extra £200 for something else. It IS an option.
My mum phoned me a while ago very concerned because her (rich) friend had told her she NEEDED an iPad and anything else simply wouldn't do. But she couldn't afford the £500. I reassured her, and the £99 Android she bought gets used every day and has been fine. All we are trying to do is point out that there IS a cheaper alternative, and it will be fine. If Macs and PCs were the same price, then I wouldn't be bothered in the least. But what irritates me is people pushing the idea that you can't have a good computing experience unless you spend loads. It's unpleasant, and leaves people feeling bad about their £300 laptop and the fact that they can only spend £300 on a laptop. It creates division in society, just like looking down on someone's 15 year old Fiesta or their £300 Carrera.
But what irritates me is people pushing the idea that you can’t have a good computing experience unless you spend loads. It’s unpleasant, and leaves people feeling bad about their £300 laptop and the fact that they can only spend £300 on a laptop. It creates division in society, just like looking down on someone’s 15 year old Fiesta or their £300 Carrera.
But strangely all you money saving zealots protest like hell about OSX but never recommend binning all that expensive Microsoft software for linux and open office alternatives. It actually reads like you get slightly offended by the choices others might make that don't match yours.
Cougar I’m talking about someone like my dad who buys a cheap pc and six months later it’s running like the proverbial bag of. It happens, I’ve had three of them to sort out this year, two compaqs and an Acer with the common denominator of W10.
The common denominator isn't W10, if it were then the four I've got on my desk right now would be the same. If you had three Mondeos and drove them all into trees would you be blaming Ford for "letting it happen" and then concluding that you should get an Audi instead?
Cheap shit hardware isn't Microsoft's fault.
HP and a supporting cast of thousands preinstalling foisterware isn't Microsoft's fault.
Users installing rubbish isn't Microsoft's fault.
And you're right, it's not a "good advert" for Microsoft and it's exactly why we keep having these discussions. Your computer crashes and you go "bloody Windows again" with no consideration that it might be say a faulty hard disk or a rogue third-party driver at fault. Some folk still seem to want to judge modern OSes based on their experiences of much older incarnations and it's as relevant as me slagging off a Vauxhall Vectra because I once had bad experiences with a Viva.
I don’t know what the alternative is for that kind of user
A user account that doesn't have Admin privileges?
As to point 1 it isn’t horsehshit. I bought my daughter a £500 (well just under) PC about 3 years ago and it was shit slow from day 1.
That's not getting slower over time then, is it.
But strangely all you money saving zealots protest like hell about OSX but never recommend binning all that expensive Microsoft software for linux and open office alternatives.
My work requires some specialized software that is only available for Windows. That software is designed to be used in conjunction with Excel, which generates the graphic outputs. I cannot do my work using Linux and Open Office (or a Mac). Even beyond that, Excel is still the gold standard. Busy people don't have time to dick around trying to save fairly trivial amounts of money on software.
molgrips
Full Member
But if you pair Finder with Spotlight (they’re kind of the same thing) then IMO Mac OS has a huge advantage.Windows has that now, I use it on both platforms for most things.
Who’d have thought it was all down to personal preference.
Well it is, of course, but there’s something else going on here. If you have £1500 to spend then yeah, you can go either way and it doesn’t matter. But what if you only have £500 to spend? Because of the way people bang on about Macs as the only good computer, you might feel pressured into trying to find some more money for that Mac or borrowing it, or buying second hand with all the issues that entails. When a PC would be fine. Or you might even get a £300 PC and keep that much needed extra £200 for something else. It IS an option.
My mum phoned me a while ago very concerned because her (rich) friend had told her she NEEDED an iPad and anything else simply wouldn’t do. But she couldn’t afford the £500. I reassured her, and the £99 Android she bought gets used every day and has been fine. All we are trying to do is point out that there IS a cheaper alternative, and it will be fine. If Macs and PCs were the same price, then I wouldn’t be bothered in the least. But what irritates me is people pushing the idea that you can’t have a good computing experience unless you spend loads. It’s unpleasant, and leaves people feeling bad about their £300 laptop and the fact that they can only spend £300 on a laptop. It creates division in society, just like looking down on someone’s 15 year old Fiesta or their £300 Carrera.
Aye, well.. that's a whole load of societal issues you getting into there and the want v need question. Good luck with that.
For most, about 95% I'd guess, a 300 quid pc laptop will do the job(I've got a 6 year old one that gets on fine). I've no problem with agreeing with that. So will a £250 9.5 year old imac, that I'm typing this on the now.
In this day and age there is most certainly no need for the latest and greatest for most, unless they want it.
We've probably had 10 years of extremely powerful computing now. So aye I agree, want v need, make your choice, there's a million options new and old(Just make sure it's got a suitable size SSD and min 8gig of ram, can run the software you want on an OS that you like and you'll have a pleasant experience on anything from the last 5-10 years.).
But strangely all you money saving zealots protest like hell about OSX but never recommend binning all that expensive Microsoft software for linux and open office alternatives.
I never recommend people buy Office unless for work (where I will strongly do so) - I always recommend Google suite for home use.
In this day and age there is most certainly no need for the latest and greatest for most, unless they want it.
Yes, well said. This is absolutely it.
But strangely all you money saving zealots protest like hell about OSX but never recommend binning all that expensive Microsoft software for linux and open office alternatives. It actually reads like you get slightly offended by the choices others might make that don’t match yours.
I don't think anyone has protested about OSX other than a few features they don't like. I certainly haven't, I don't know enough about it to make an informed argument one way or the other. What I'm protesting about is people talking abject nonsense.
Linux has its place, but its place is rarely if ever "inexperienced users' desktops." Sadly, penguin-botherers are even thicker on the ground than Apple fanboys. Linux, OSX and Windows are all solutions of varying appropriateness to a Venn diagram of requirements, rather than a one-size-fits-all answer to everything. That's my argument in its entirety, for people to be empowered to make an an informed decision as to what's right for them rather than folk trying to 'win' by blindly shouting their OS of choice or ragging everything else in the vague delusion that it's somehow universally better than everything else. It isn't. There's no thought process involved here and that irritates me.
Desktop OSes are all mature products now. Linux is great. OSX is great. Windows 10 is great. Which is best for you? It depends.
In this day and age there is most certainly no need for the latest and greatest for most, unless they want it.
Quite. There is a new "what PC?" thread like once a week and it's almost universally to browse the web, open emails and a bit of light office work. And as I've replied more than once, you've be hard pressed to find a computer that can't do that.
Computing has come a long way. Time was, you'd have to buy top-of-the-range and be locked into an endless upgrade cycle to do relatively simple tasks. These days most PCs are "good enough" so long as you avoid the absolute bottom-feeders. Mobile phones are going the same way now too.
I never recommend people buy Office unless for work (where I will strongly do so) – I always recommend Google suite for home use.
Microsoft Office is free online and perfectly adequate for the majority of home users. There's several other alternatives too.
Linux has its place, but its place is rarely if ever “inexperienced users’ desktops.” Sadly, penguin-botherers are even thicker on the ground than Apple fanboys
Just for completeness the Windows advocate insult is...?
Think the Raspberry Pi Foundation would disagree with you there 🤣Linux has its place, but its place is rarely if ever “inexperienced users’ desktops.”
Linux has its place, but its place is rarely if ever “inexperienced users’ desktops.”
Dunno... my lad's first computer was one of those Kanos...
https://help.kano.me/hc/en-us/articles/360001546340-What-is-Kano-OS-
Just for completeness the Windows advocate insult is…?
"Windoze" or something equally hilarious and original I expect.
Think the Raspberry Pi Foundation would disagree with you there
Fair point, but a Pi's raison d'etre isn't really to be a desktop computer.
Fair point, but a Pi’s raison d’etre isn’t really to be a desktop computer.
But there are many distros that do a great job of targeting specific user types rather than trying to be everything to everyone. There are some great entry level distros that need no recourse to command line and are every bit as intuitive as any other windowing system.
The point is that computing today is about choice and there are a myriad of choices and no right choices. But "you don't want to do it like that" prevails
Interestingly, and not really surprisingly, the days of being able to revitalise an old laptop by installing Linux seem to be over. Before laying out the cash on a new machine, I tried putting Linux on a couple of old laptops I had lying around. I didn't run any actual benchmarks, but performance was not noticeably different than it had been under W10, even just running Chrome. It was certainly not good enough to persuade me I didn't need to spend £750. It seems that as the functionality of the various consumer focused distros has got closer to that offered by Windows/MacOS so has the load on the hardware. Which makes sense - Linux is just software, not magic.
Microsoft Office is free online
Ah yes I'd forgotten that. However the free offering is essentially the same as Google, just a more familiar format and possibly better compatibility with normal Office.
what irritates me is people pushing the idea that you can’t have a good computing experience unless you spend loads.
I don't think anyone is really saying that, are they? One issue is that the kind of people who sit (at their computers) and ask such questions on Internet fora are a self-selected group who spend a lot of their free time at a computer and as such are more likely to derive value from a premium option. It's the reason why people can justify (to themselves) spending thousands on smartphones - if it's something you interact with daily then it's worth spending money to make that experience nicer.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that an uninterested student needs a Mac to do their English homework on, or to write a thesis for university.
... and then you take the analogy way too far.
And you’re right, it’s not a “good advert” for Microsoft and it’s exactly why we keep having these discussions. Your computer crashes and you go “bloody Windows again” with no consideration that it might be say a faulty hard disk or a rogue third-party driver at fault.
I don't think anyone really cares who is ultimately to blame for their PC breaking, be it Microsoft, shoddy hardware, spyware or rogue drivers. It's just annoying when the system as a whole fails.
Obviously the difference (Mac vs PC) is that Apple has control over every step (hardware/firmware/software) and a vastly smaller number of different hardware configurations so some of these incompatibility issues can be avoided to the benefit of end users.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that an uninterested student needs a Mac to do their English homework on, or to write a thesis for university.
Anytime someone posts with a "what cheap computer for doing basic stuff?" question, a bunch of Apple fanbois turn up with "my Apple stuff that cost thousands of quid is awesome, much better than the PC I used back in 1993."
I like them both - I'm using a MacBook pro for work and an 8 year old i3 Lenovo laptop with W10 for Singletrack. Both work fine, both are very similar to use.
Like the OP I quite fancy a Mac when the Lenovo dies - should be firmly into M1 cpus by then.
I'm not familiar with the current batch of apple laptops, but they were really good value before the touchbar nonsense(Prices got "updated" when these released). Especially for students, you could get a 13 inch one at a discount and it would reliably last you your whole degree. Something that windows laptops never seemed to do. My 2012 retina only just died, after years and years of abuse. My partners 2014 Macbok Air is still going and doesn't show signs of wear.
One of the reason why people suggest Apple stuff, is because it works, and it generally does it very well. From the build quality, components, software to the end user experience.
My 2017 MBA is still going strong... runs flawlessly and have used it throughout lockdown to run my business from. I had the OS update last week and that is the first time it has been rebooted in months. Very stable and reliable, unlike the Windows 10 machines back at the office which need a reboot every few weeks for updates.
I love them. I find them very intuitive to use and most of all, stable and predictable.
Re Microsoft Office, I bought a 6 PC or Mac licence for a year for £40 yesterday from Argos. £40 a year seems good value to me. I'm aware that I could use Google suite and I've used OpenOffice in the past but this is less hassle for me when my wife or kids want to use the PC.
Very stable and reliable, unlike the Windows 10 machines back at the office which need a reboot every few weeks for updates.
I think most people would consider a computer that runs for several weeks without trouble and only needs to be rebooted to install updates to be pretty reliable. Back in the Win98 days, I used to reboot my machine every time I made a cup of coffee just as a precaution.
Back in the 90s we had an issue with PCs that were used as a network interface between a mini computer and a token ring lan. After a lot of pain we found that MS-DOS had a bug that caused it to fall over after 47 days. We only found it because we were running so little else on top of it.
Windows is pretty reliable since W2K. I seem to need to reboot for updates about as often as with my work Mac. Neither fall over very often.
Re Microsoft Office, I bought a 6 PC or Mac licence for a year for £40 yesterday from Argos. £40 a year seems good value to me. I’m aware that I could use Google suite
I spent many years 'living' in MS Office but while I always have it installed I'm at a loss as to why anyone would use it unless they had to. By default I start in G-drive now. Documents saved automatically, version control, easy to force 'track changes'/comments, full collaborative working and will now cope with Microsoft word dox without changing format.
Office 365 still seems a poor, slow, imitation.
My Mac is frequently asking me to restart to install updates. I can refuse, but it continues to ask me. And arguably I shouldn't refuse.
My Mac is frequently asking me to restart to install updates. I can refuse, but it continues to ask me. And arguably I shouldn’t refuse.
Odd that isn't it. Until a couple of years ago most MacOS updates happened without needing a reboot but they now nearly always do.
I spent many years ‘living’ in MS Office but while I always have it installed I’m at a loss as to why anyone would use it unless they had to. By default I start in G-drive now
Because offline "full strength" Office is still shitloads better than anything Google or Open Office have to offer? Google is hamstrung by being stuck in a browser, and Open Office seems to be stuck in the 90s...
I have a mac. I run MS Office 2019. Sorry.