[Closed] Apple Mac itch.........sorry!

I’ve been a Mac user for 30 years. I periodically have to use Windows kit for some work contracts, but when I have the choice, the choice is Mac. It doesn’t always just work, but IME it just works more often than windows does. The hardware is better quality than similarly priced Microsoft, Lenovo or Dell kit, again IMHO.

As above, they’ve ALWAYS been better value than the competition. You’d have to use one to appreciate it, I can understand why people look at them and short-sightedly think they’re not. Stuck with Windows for 20 years though 🤣 you have my sympathy. Made the switch 15 years ago and never looked back.

Agree the new M1 stuff looks absolutely cracking though. Going to wait for the proper Pro machines personally but might pick up a Mini for server duties.

Early days but not heard anything bad yet? Even the performance of non-native apps that you might assume it’d struggle with (esp. the limited RAM) e.g. CAD is blowing people away for what is really a pretty cheap laptop.

Mac user for nearly 20 years and have never regretted it. Keep looking at the new Macbook pro myself but my old 2014 Air is still going strong since I replaced the battery in summer and can't really justify changing it at the moment.

they’ve ALWAYS been better value than the competition

They've never been better value than the competition, even in capitals. They have many redeeming features but "value" is not one of them, they're a premium product commanding a premium price.

If you spent Apple money on an equivalent PC laptop you'd get a lot more for your money. But people don't, they compare a £2k Mac to a £300 PC and go "well, the Mac is so much better!" Of course it is, they'd have gone out of business by now otherwise.

If you regret not buying a Mac then "buy a Mac" is sensible advice, that's clearly what you want. But your usage case could be met with an entry-level laptop, RAM and perhaps SSD upgrades and a big monitor. With the money you've saved you could buy a power kite.

They’ve never been better value than the competition, even in capitals. They have many redeeming features but “value” is not one of them, they’re a premium product commanding a premium price.

Your opinion, others are available. As are interpretations of what value means, even in inverted commas.

Nah, you’re confusing up-front cost with total cost of ownership. You’ll be able to keep a Mac way longer before replacing it plus spend a lot less valuable time sorting out issues over the years. Time and lack of stress are extremely valuable commodities to me and moving to Mac has paid me back both in spades. I’m sure a £300 machine at the time is fine but who is genuinely using that every day 15 years later? And guarantee a lot more time will have been spent swearing at the cheap POS 🤣

If you regret not buying a Mac then “buy a Mac” is sensible advice, that’s clearly what you want.

It's not really though, that's the problem. 🙂
I don't like the soldered in batteries, SSD's and non upgradable RAM. Those weren't an issue 20 years ago when I chose the Toshiba over the Mac, Macs were still upgradable then.

I get on really well with Windows 10, and I'd like to buy a pleasant to use, powerful machine that will last a good few years.

The Dell XPS looks like the nearest W10 equivalent to the M1 MBP and seems a great option.

I don't aspire to own a Mac, but for the first time in ages they look like an excellent option in terms of value and performance, hence the question.

Cougar were you bullied by Steve Jobs as a child? It’s like a Mac thread cannot exist without your Apple tax rant.

The M1 architecture is an absolute game changer and invalidates all your comparisons. Maybe check out Tom’s Guide view of latest Air vs XPS and then change the record a bit.

Opened thread, wondered how far down I’d get before a “cougar” post, leave thread..........

I never 'loved' my computer until I got a Mac. I'll never go back to a PC.

Macs just strip away all the crap you never knew you didn't need.

Macs are a bit pricy, but they are great. I’ve just got one of the newest laptops and the new M1 chip seems amazing though there’s still some software that doesn’t yet work on it which is a nuisance.

I used to be a fan of Apple until their Big Sur OS bricked my mid-2014 MacBook Pro. Apparently, Apple want £500 to change the i/o board.

What happened to the benefits of integrated product/software. I am not yet aware of any Windows update leading to hardware failure.

Just get the new M1, it will be the only computer you will be able to sell and get some money for at the end of three years, also a delight to use.

change the record a bit.

Yet there's still people posting about using 15 year old Macs problem-free. We have two unibody Macs from 2008 in the house and they'd be paperweights if I hadn't put a lightweight Linux OS on them. Meanwhile I run a business on a Compaq from the same year and it just works, albeit with an SSD.

Hmmm I’ve recently gone the other way, macs hardware is very nice and my wife is still using my 2012 Mac mini daily (regret selling my core 2 duo MBP) but office 365 is so far ahead it’s not even a competition on that front. If you need help with software Microsoft Community has some truly helpful considerate monitors. Where as apple forums are condescending places where you are always wrong.

Having said that, if you just want photos and music an iPad Pro will fulfil your needs in fact with a pencil it’ll do more than that. Not used it for music but there are some great apps. My last iPad lasted ages in fact the only reasons it’s been replaced is due to no more app updates.

Lenovo make some nice laptops and I think huawei make mac imitations I think.

If you spent Apple money on an equivalent PC laptop you’d get a lot more for your money. But people don’t, they compare a £2k Mac to a £300 PC and go “well, the Mac is so much better!”

Imagine doing something like that

I’m sure a £300 machine at the time is fine but who is genuinely using that every day 15 years later? And will have enjoyed using it for virtually every minute of that time

Oh.

Mrs Bails has got an iMac, either a 2004 or 2006 model. It's been in its cardboard box for the last 4 years. It was out on a desk but unused for years before that because it was glacially slow. She used my 2008 ~£700 Windows laptop (which I sold/gave away to someone on here actually, I wonder if it's still going?), and now my 2017 ~£550 Windows laptop.

Apple don't have magic powers, they make expensive, high spec stuff that works well. Your can buy expensive, high spec stuff made by other companies.

Back to the OP, if you want a Mac then buy a Mac, from the sounds of it you'll regret it if you don't.

Edit for clarity: please don't mistake any of the above for "Apple is rubbish", because it isn't. It's expensive, and probably good, and other expensive stuff can be good too.

Upgraded to Big Sur on my 2014 Air and have no issues. I'd have thought the Pro would have handled it better?

When I swapped my battery I kept seeing things about soldered/glued in batteries, but literally, it was a 10-minute job with no glue, no solder to be seen anywhere.

I'm considering scratching the Mac itch again. I had an original Mac mini when they were first released, still got it but it doesn't with with hardly anything anymore. Turned to a pc, Aldi medion when they seemed good for the money, next went to a scan build core i5 version 4, still using it with ram and ssd upgrades. Works well but doesn't do 4k video very well.
Anyway the new M1 Mac's have attracted my interest. A mini would be good under the TV but I think I'd go for the air as the portability might come in useful at some point. Do I really need a Mac? Probably not. Would I like one? Yes. Maybe my interest will subside if I do watching the review videos?

Yet there’s still people posting about using 15 year old Macs problem-free

And mine was obsoleted and no longer OS uprgradable and not supported 4 years after brand new purchase. Reason? it was the black case, not bling alu case afaict, and no longer fitted their image and what they deemed acceptable. Surely they could have shipped a non multitouch touchpad driver? Oh yeah and that 4 year obsolescence date coincided with the 3rd battery carking it. Bought a Linux based laptop for the price of a 4th battery.

The M1 mac certainly does seem to be pretty performant though, going on 1 review I've seen (from a self-confessed Mac user youtuber). Certainly more than I was expecting from the first models. I'd never buy the first of anything though until established and the software properly ported etc.

The only Apple I will buy is the stock on the stock exchange. I'd never buy MS.

@andytherocketeer, look on Macrumors. Lol!

Bought a 2012 MBP i7 for son1 to work on for his unix based research last year. It’s ok and well made. Last of the hewn from solid aluminium cases ones with a DVD drive. Non retina screen. But with my eyesight it’s not an issue.

I don’t really warm to it, but then it’s an appliance like my work laptop. Windows 10 is fine, but so is Mac/OS. Have they fixed the keyboards yet? Permanently?

A surface Go2 is my most likely next purchase. Mac dropped the ball in the tablet-cum-laptop space. And I have an iPad and iPhone.

they’ve ALWAYS been better value than the competition. You’d have to use one to appreciate it,

I have two Macs from work, I still prefer Windows and when I look at the prices of Macs I agree with Cougar, they aren't particularly good value.

Reliability has gone down significantly in the last few years. My 2015 MBP black-screens regularly. None of my Windows computers do this and most of them are older and they are all vastly cheaper.

To the OP - the M1s look fast, but do you need to spend over a grand on a machine with 8Gb RAM to get a performance boost when you just want to do 'basic stuff' ? The disadvantages of 8Gb are likely to be far greater than the extra clock cycles of the M1 that you won't even notice. Your CPU is never the bottleneck unless you are doing certain specific things like video editing or rendering.

The problem with Windows is that there are good and bad Windows laptops. There are no bad Macs*, although Apple are doing their very best to change this. There are also cheap Windows computers, there are no cheap Macs.

My Mac is currently nagging me to upgrade to Big Sur (even though I tried to cancel it) and work have told us not to because of the risk of ****ing things up.

Yet there’s still people posting about using 15 year old Macs problem-free

I have a 13 year old Windows laptop that works fine, beautiful screen still, but the case is a bit battered as it was cheap. Also converted a 9 year old work laptop to Zwift duties, with a £20 SSD in it it's really pretty fast. The case is broken on that too, as I dropped it and I had to glue it back up.

I don't think modern versions of MacOS are supported on 15 year old Macs are they?

* Except that cylindrical thing that kept toasting itself. Talk about style over function 🙄

I never ‘loved’ my computer until I got a Mac. I’ll never go back to a PC.

Macs just strip away all the crap you never knew you didn’t need.

This Mac has Garage Band on it (wtf? It's for work!) and some home-made office type software that no-one needs, Apple TV, and I keep accidentally brushing the Siri button. **** off Siri. So yeah there is plenty of crap.

A big mark against the Windows model is that PC vendors put all their own crap on there which is often dire and sometimes a real problem. I wish they wouldn't do this, and I have no idea why MS let them because it really damages the image of Windows and no-one likes it.

Mrs Bails has got an iMac, either a 2004 or 2006 model. It’s been in its cardboard box for the last 4 years. It was out on a desk but unused for years before that because it was glacially slow.

The disadvantages of 8Gb are likely to be far greater than the extra clock cycles of the M1 that you won’t even notice.

I have two Macs from work, I still prefer Windows and when I look at the prices of Macs I agree with Cougar, they aren’t particularly good value.

Reliability has gone down significantly in the last few years. My 2015 MBP black-screens regularly. None of my Windows computers do this and most of them are older and they are all vastly cheaper.

Nah, you’re confusing up-front cost with total cost of ownership. You’ll be able to keep a Mac way longer before replacing it

No I'm not and that's entirely my point. My daily driver laptop turned 12 last month, and it cost half of an equivalent Mac. If you're arguing TCO then I'd need a Macbook to last 25 years.

And guarantee a lot more time will have been spent swearing at the cheap POS

Again, that's exactly my point. Don't buy a cheap POS, whatever badge it happens to have.

Cougar were you bullied by Steve Jobs as a child? It’s like a Mac thread cannot exist without your Apple tax rant

I'm not ranting and I've nothing against Apple or their products. They're not for me personally but rather I'm a firm believer that the right tool for the job should trump fanboyism, I'd cheerfully suggest buying a Mac (and indeed, just did) if I thought it was the right solution to a problem.

(You do know that Steve Jobs died like ten years ago, yes?)

Nah, you’re confusing up-front cost with total cost of ownership. You’ll be able to keep a Mac way longer before replacing it plus spend a lot less valuable time sorting out issues over the years.

This is not my experience at all. If you spend the same on a professional quality Windows laptop as you'd spend on a MacBook, you'll get a solid machine. Windows has much better backwards compatibility than Mac OS, especially with old printers, scanners, etc. I have a 2012 Macbook Pro (which I use to run Win10 in Bootcamp). The latest versions of Mac OS will not install, whereas the Dell XPS laptop I bought at the same time can run the latest versions of Win10.

However, the big question is really what software you want to run. If you're into artistic stuff, probably the professional grade software is developed for Mac OS (but you need to check, obviously). In my line of work, we use specialized software that is only available for Windows, so Mac OS is a non-starter. If your work is mostly using MS Office, a Mac is going to cost you more and have no benefits over a decent Windows machine.

I had a Sony laptop that was giving me gyp. Not least the on button being exactly where I wanted to pick it up and switch it off when moving about...

Anyways, I had considered a MacBook Pro at the time of purchase but it was 250£ more than the Sony so I decided against it.

A couple years later, when the Sony ‘issues’ were annoying me I succumbed to one of the last MBP with integral dvd drive 2013/14?

I never warmed to it. I’ve used ms-dos and windows machine since the early 90’s and as a consequence use keyboard shortcuts. I just was never able to do on the MacBook what I could do on a windows machine... like, ever.

Ironically all I really used it for was watching and the mb dvd drive went south 6 months ago so I using the, yup, that’s right, the older Sony... must be 8 going on 9 years old and still W7 so effectively otherwise retired. Oh the MBP regularly went slow and spun the Catherine wheel of dread for hours sometimes. Definitely more problematic than the windows machine!

I have a nice ~year old decent spec Lenovo and an iPad Pro (which cost almost as much as the Lenovo once you add the pencil and case....). Anything that needs proper typing/input it’s the Lenovo. Everything else it’s the iPad.

A new M1 laptop would have to be helluva nice to entice me back...

must be 8 going on 9 years old and still W7 so effectively otherwise retired

Installing Win10 would be an obvious thing to do, assuming hardware compatibility.

If your work is mostly using MS Office, a Mac is going to cost you more and have no benefits over a decent Windows machine.

There is some truth in that. I just like navigating around Mac OS much more than Windows. It’s engineered to be pleasing to use with ergonomic swipes and more interesting visuals. App switching seems better to me, ditto file management. All those mini Dopamine releases when you flick through stuff on your phone and it’s satisfying - Apple have been nailing that for years including in MacOS (Exposé is like 15 years old now).

Oh, and I’ve never seen a Windows laptop with a trackpad as good as my 2012 MBP, let alone my 2018 one. If having this computer cost me £100/yr over a ‘comparable’ Windows PC (it doesn’t) I’d still pay for what I perceive as a better experience.

On the other hand, the Mac version of Excel is a bit less responsive so if I was knee deep in spreadsheets all day I’d probably kill myself get a PC.

I’ve used ms-dos and windows machine since the early 90’s and as a consequence use keyboard shortcuts. I just was never able to do on the MacBook what I could do on a windows machine…

See, I’m used to keyboard shortcuts for everything too and IME these are more ‘baked into’ MacOS compared with Windows. At any rate, I’m sure you can set up whatever keyboard shortcuts you like on either platform. You’re just describing a familiarity issue.

I just like navigating around Mac OS much more than Windows.

I'm the opposite. I like the simple way Windows is organized. Mac OS makes no intuitive sense to me.

You’re just describing a familiarity issue.

Yup, in windows it’s like muscle memory, in iOS it’s how the ****?!? Which is a problem if, like the OP, you’ve used windows the last twenty years. Which is my exact point... it’s still a real ****ing issue though.

I’d really echo what Superficial said.  I grew up with Macs as a designer in a publishing house from a YTS.   I’ve never been a computer nerd but after that used windows machines from ‘93 to 2010 and too me they were just a tool, so they never bothered me much but in the latter period the rate at which laptops became bogged down was a bit of an annoyance. Then again, it was a tool for the job.

Then I got offered a MBP for work and have used one ever since.  We have an old MB for downstairs googling, made a choice of an iMac as our main “house” computer, and when considering what Jnr could have for his homework got lucky enough and sold enough toys during Lockdown 1 to afford him the smaller iMac.

I couldn’t be more pleased.  The two iMacs deputise really well as alternate Netflix type machines on movie nights so we don’t have TV upstairs and again like superficial I’m used too and really enjoy the GUI over windows 10, although I will admit to only using it in a limited way to launch Zwift in the second hand mancave Dell all in one.

To me they just feel a bit more premium, last and are much more useable for longer in the main.  Our old MB is a 2011 model and despite a failed battery still works fine.

Miss OTS has my old 2011 MBA (11" version) which she uses for her homework. It's never seen any hardware upgrades unlike a lot of trigger's broom PCs that are allegedly 25 years old.
We've a couple of 2012 Mac Minis in use across the house too. 1 for music recording and one as a netflix / youtube box connected to a TV.

Nothing constructive to add. Just wondering what brings out the most venomous, reverse snobbery from the STW hipsters.

Apple computers or VW Transporters? They both really touch a nerve and inspire some very impassioned rants that point to deep personal trauma.

(MPB running like a dream since 2010 Yo. Windows sux)

I use an 11 year old iMac every day and it is still going fine although too old for any new OS updates now
I also use an 8 year old SSD laptop every day and it is also still going fine.

The laptop runs better than the Mac and it always did but both just work and have never had a single issue.

If the computer is on show I would get a Mac as they still look a lot nicer than any equivalent and as mine is very visible that matters to me. For a laptop I would just get a Windows SSD laptop.

Only ever used Macs since the 80s when I did (manually) the marketing artwork for the UK launch.
I currently produce three newspapers on a 2012 Mac Mini with an SSD retrofitted.
I like them but have never tried the alternative.

Cougar were you bullied by Steve Jobs as a child? It’s like a Mac thread cannot exist without your Apple tax rant

(You do know that Steve Jobs died like ten years ago, yes?)

Yes but I'm guessing you are older than, what, 15? 🙂

There is a review of computers for photography here:

https://luminous-landscape.com/macs-for-photography/

My tl:dr would be that if you're looking for a laptop, it's actually not so easy to point to one that has the same spec as a Mac for less money.

Made the switch back in about 2001 at same time as my wife. immediate family (e.g. mum and dad, FiL and MiL) recommended to switch a few years ago (as I am default tech support and needed less hassle), and now the wee company that I run are all on Macs. This is a lovely thing to be able to do, after years of working for mega corps and behaving to use windows/Lenovo (though I will say the hardware was pretty good, loved the wee light in the lid edge).

They last for years. Usually 8-10yrs for a machine.

It’s a lovely place to be. I use a 2019 13” MBP plugged into a big screen at home office. Usual office stuff + RAW photo editing, increasingly video editing and GarageBand as our work stuff now demands a lot more of that.

Hard to look past a new M1 MacBook Air if I was buying now, but most machines (inc iPads) we have bought have been apple refurbs.

Note: I also have a VW T6 🙂

Note: I also have a VW T6 🙂

But don't you realise that a 10 year old Berlingo would do exactly same thing for a fraction of the price?

You poor fool, kool-aid drinker etc....

This is great. We’re finally going to find out which is better windows or Mac.

I never warmed to it. I’ve used ms-dos and windows machine since the early 90’s and as a consequence use keyboard shortcuts. I just was never able to do on the MacBook what I could do on a windows machine… like, ever.

Those keyboard shortcuts were lifted wholesale from MacOS, Mr Gates took a bit of a bollocking from Mr Jobs when Apple was the bigger company for his theft of the 'look and feel'. There was also a legal spat.

Once you know that the funny Apple key is cmd, alt is option and control is control it's the same letters do everything as in Windows OS. The switch requires one to learn three new keys.

stevious

Full Member

This is great. We’re finally going to find out which is better windows or Mac.

It's actually been a help! Thanks for the replies everyone.

Basically, I'm swaying towards sticking with Windows, but will hold off making a final decision until the new year.

I think upgradability might be the sticking point - that and the fact that I would prefer a 15" screen to a 13".

If I ditch the idea of a fancy metal enclosure, I can get something very well specced (i7, 16Gb, 1T SSD, for instance) with a bigger screen for less than the standard price of a base MBP. I might even get a graphics card that will let me run Flight Simulator at decent settings. 🙂

I'll probably have a load more questions, but thanks very much for now, much appreciated.

I've been a Windows user since 3.1 and supported it since 98/NT. I like macs. Currently typing on a mid-2012 MBP. It's no different to people's choice in cars or bikes. Some are prepared to spend more for the look, the feel, etc. Note I haven't updated though since 2012. Since SSD they've got a bit silly price wise for any decent amount of storage and I still find a use for some of the old school ports and built in DVD drive. If Apple would bring themselves to accept the current "normal" pricing of SSD I could be prepared to go for M1.

As for the interface I've never had a problem switching between MS and Mac. Each has it's pros and cons and as someone mentioned earlier the mac trackpad is unsurpassed.

Don’t do it!

I tried and bought a MacBook Air a few years back, I was seduced by sexy aluminium, I was weak.

Tried to love the OS but having been raised on gem, os2 and windows I just couldn’t make the switch. Gave up after a year and sold the Air to my son in law who loves it. I brought a Thinkpad and it’s been faultless and since work runs windows I don’t have to switch between work and home life.

Well that all depends how your brain works. I switch between Mac and Windows many times a day. Both are used for work and pleasure. Never had a problem switching between the 2 but the Mac is more annoying when using Citrix to run my virtual windows desktop for work.

Being the family “computer expert” (I’m not, it’s just relative, pun intended) I get everyone’s laptops to sort out. Invariably some low end Compaq etc on W10. Invariably takes five minutes to boot then another ten or fifteen before the machine responds to any input.

I’ve done loads of these now; why do MS let this happen? Like the HP-inflicted bloat ware that has already been mentioned. It’s the best advert for Mac - ok I get that someone who spent 300 quid on a PC isn’t going to spunk over a grand on a MBA or something, but it must be infuriating having a newish machine work so poorly and just have to suck it up because they all do that.

Invariably takes five minutes to boot then another ten or fifteen before the machine responds to any input.

That's because it has a very slow hard disk, not an SSD. It has that because it's a very cheap computer. I bought two laptops back in 2012 for a project that had to be cross-platform so we needed a Mac and a Windows laptop. I bought a MacBook Pro and a Dell XPS 12. They cost almost exactly the same, but the MacBook had a regular hard disk and the Dell an SSD (plus the Dell had an i7 CPU whereas the Macbook had an i5). The Dell boots up in 20 seconds, the MacBook takes a couple of minutes. The slow bootup thing is nothing to do with Windows, it's due to having a slow hard disk. If you put a slow hard disk into a Mac, it'll be slow to boot too.

why do MS let this happen?

Because Macs are prestige products bought by wealthy people. Most people cannot afford them so other companies make cheaper products that average people can afford. Microsoft sells Windows licences to PC makers, they don't make cheap PCs themselves. The Microsoft Surface branded machines are mostly quite impressive (my wife has one), but they are priced at similar levels to Apple stuff.

I'm an either or type can work seamlessly in either OS, so for me it's really just down to personal preference.

Although in saying that, I've been looking into these M1 chips and doing a bit of youtubing on them. They do sound like a potential game changer in the next coming years tbh. sounds like intel and AMD will have their work cut out anyhow.

It’s not the lack of SSD that takes so long to boot. As I said, I’m no pc expert so I just do a fresh install which speeds things up until they reinstall Avast or whatever made it grind to a halt in the first place.

Just seems like for your average non-computer literate user, it’s a fact of life that your sub £500 machine will get slower and slower. Turn it on, go make a cup of tea, it might be ready when you’re finished.

Appreciate it’s not MS’s fault, and if MacOS was available for OEM installs it’d likely suffer the same. There’s not much they can do about it, it’s a bad advert for the OS all the same.

As an aside, for the same people I’ll install PoP Linux on another partition they can choose if they want. Boots quick, no messing, does 99% of what you’d want it to, but it’s different so they don’t use it XD

bob_summers
Full Member
It’s not the lack of SSD that takes so long to boot..

It is.

It’s not the lack of SSD that takes so long to boot.

That's exactly what the problem is if it's taking that long to boot. A PC with an SSD should boot in 20 to 30 seconds. With a HDD, a couple of minutes is typical. Same goes with Macs - with a HDD, they are slow to boot too.

Windows has a built-in anti-virus program that is pretty good. There's no need to install another anti-virus program.

I'm not disputing that a SSD boots faster.

I'm wondering why an old install of W10 takes five minutes to boot.* A fresh install on the same drive takes half that, a Linux distro on another partition takes less than a minute.

* To the login screen. It's a lot, lot longer from there to getting a half-responsive machine.

I just like navigating around Mac OS much more than Windows. It’s engineered to be pleasing to use with ergonomic swipes and more interesting visuals.

This is all entirely subjective, but MacOS visuals for me, are rubbish. I get the same background picture of an island every day. What's great about that? On Windows I get greeted with beautiful photos from around the world every day, which I love. So much so that I've installed picture of the day from Bing on the Mac 🙂 The round buttons and greyness of MacOS seem dull to me, I much prefer the sharp lines on Windows.

I also like toolbars, like on Windows Explorer, rather than menu options. And having the menu at the top of the screen all the time is ridiculous. Aside from the fact that you can open a new app and see nothing except that some of the menu items have changed to indicate it's a different app - I have a 4k screen and the window might be in the bottom right but the menu items are all the way in the top left. Smart, not.

And MacOS Finder is awful compared to Windows Explorer. Right clicking gives me a few options but no 'new' option like new folder. And I don't seem to be able to right click in a folder, I can only click on the stuff that's inside the folder. Why is there no tree view on the left hand side? I've been using MacOS for nearly two years, and very rarely Windows, but I still get stuck and struggle to do things in the Finder.

When a background app has a notification it jumps up and down on the task bar. That's INCREDIBLY annoying. Whoever came up with that needs a smack.

Also, no delete key.

And the alt-tab functionality switches between APPS not windows. Ok so it's about preference, but you have to alt-tab into an app and THEN figure out which window you want and alt-` though those. It's a two-step process. I use alt-tab heavily in Windows exactly because it's so useful.

Also, no delete key.

Also, no cut/paste from menu.
Cmd+C to copy, Cmd+alt+V to paste and cut - why such a faff? Although having not used windows since probably 98, I find W10 no more intuitive.

I love mint/ubuntu's 'move to' on the right click. And delete without going to trash.

I’m wondering why an old install of W10 takes five minutes to boot.* A fresh install on the same drive takes half that,

Probably, the users are installing garbage apps that are running at startup. These can be disabled.

Hit Alt+Ctrl+Del
Select "Task Manager"
Select "Startup"

This will give you a list of apps that are running automatically on startup. Sort them by "Startup Impact". Disable anything that isn't essential.

having been raised on gem

GEM desktop? Like, Atari ST GEM? That's why to this day I still have the taskbar at the top of the screen.

why do MS let this happen? Like the HP-inflicted bloat ware that has already been mentioned.

This is just straight-out weird. Do you think that Microsoft control the PC hardware and software market? That they dictate what HP preload on their laptops? This is like blaming Esso for the existence of the Nissan Micra.

It's the very fact that it's open to any old third party to make whatever they like that begat market dominance to the PC in the first place.

it’s a fact of life that your sub £500 machine will get slower and slower.

1) No it isn't, that's fanboy horseshit that hasn't been true for well over 20 years and,

2) The same would be true of a sub-£500 Mac if such a thing existed.

I've got a 2008 vintage Dell laptop here running the Windows Insider bleeding edge version of Windows 10. Can you find me a 2008 Mac that'll run Big Sur? Best I can source is machines from 2013.

Cougar I'm talking about someone like my dad who buys a cheap pc and six months later it's running like the proverbial bag of. It happens, I've had three of them to sort out this year, two compaqs and an Acer with the common denominator of W10.

You're as bad as that other chap with the magic iPad.

Re. 2008 MacBooks, I've got two unibodies that won't run any recent MacOS. They're doing fine on Linux though.

That they dictate what HP preload on their laptops?

They could, they have a license agreement with HP don't they?

Cougar I’m talking about someone like my dad who buys a cheap pc and six months later it’s running like the proverbial bag of.

What caused this in your case? I've had problems with small SSDs, they can fill up surprisingly quickly which really makes they system slow down.

Mechanical drives in these cases. No idea why, as mentioned I have neither the time nor patience to diagnose these things, I just reinstall and it goes away until next time!

It's just a bad look for MS and I don't know what the alternative is for that kind of user - probably Chromebook tbh

That they dictate what HP preload on their laptops?

They could, they have a license agreement with HP don’t they?

If you recall, there was a huge lawsuit about 20 years ago concerning bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows and forbidding manufacturers from pre-loading other browsers. Microsoft's arguments at the time were somewhat similar, but they came out of it looking really bad - a tech giant bullying other companies.

1) No it isn’t, that’s fanboy horseshit that hasn’t been true for well over 20 years and,

2) The same would be true of a sub-£500 Mac if such a thing existed.

I’ve got a 2008 vintage Dell laptop here running the Windows Insider bleeding edge version of Windows 10. Can you find me a 2008 Mac that’ll run Big Sur? Best I can source is machines from 2013.

As to point 1 it isn't horsehshit. I bought my daughter a £500 (well just under) PC about 3 years ago and it was shit slow from day 1. OK a mechanical HDD but still, shit slow. Alot slower than my early 2009 basic MacBook I was running at the time.

As to point 2 yes, that is true...that is why they don't do cheaper machines. They're a premium product provider just like, say Ferrari if you want a car analogy. If Ferrari did a £20k car it would be just as crap as every other £20k car out there and that would damage and degrade the brand, so they don't. So to get a windows machine to be as good as a Mac you have to spend Mac money. Not sure what we're trying to prove here.

As to the final point, well my dad has a 2012 iMac with a knackered HDD. He was going to chuck it but I'm going to resurrect it. And in the research I'm doing there are plenty of people running 2012 and earlier Mac's and Macbooks on Catalina via some hack. Too early for Big Sur, but it's coming. My old 2009 macbook was running fine until a couple of years ago the battery decided to burst open. No reason why if I'd replaced the battery before it blew it wouldn't be running fine still. So again...the moral of the story is if you invest early on then you get a product that has longevity.

The last Windows machine I got from my employer was an HP Spectre X360 - comparable in price to a Mac. The hardware was every bit was lovely as a Mac, but it had tablet mode and pen input too, people commented on how nice it looked, and in the 2 years I had it it gave me absolutely no trouble at all. My last employer offered me a voice between Windows and Mac - I thought it would be instructive to try the Mac, since my last Apple experience was with a IIcx. Almost all the software we used was cloud-based so really it was just running Chrome most of the time. I had it two years and never got to like it. No delete key, no page up/down, no home and end keys. I had a sheet of paper with the shortcut keystroke equivalents fixed to my desk lamp, but I never learned them. Finder - as someone else has said, it's horrible. Makes no sense, always looks different, no obvious way to make it look how you want. Menus on the top of the screen, not on the window - this is just plain daft. It was a pre-2018 MBA, so crappy lo-res screen, but it had an i7 so performance was ok. Speakers were awful.
Now I'm retired, so had to spend my own money to buy a new laptop. I'd really have liked another Spectre, but as a pensioner couldn't really justify spending that much money. So I spent £750 on this
It is a truly lovely bit of kit. Solid aluminium case, AMD Ryzen 5 is faster than a 10th-gen i7 for many applications, W10 is fine, screen is lovely, screen to body ratio is impressive, touch and pen works well, B&O speakers sound nice, 3 year pick up and return warranty. Couldn't get near that in the Apple range.

They’re a premium product provider just like, say Ferrari

Right. So imagine how it'd sound if you went round telling everyone they simply MUST save up for a Ferrari because anything else is simply too cheap.

So to get a windows machine to be as good as a Mac you have to spend Mac money. Not sure what we’re trying to prove here.

Nonsense. As far as I can tell, the cheapest Mac laptop is £999 for a MacBook Air with the M1 chip. The equivalent Intel chip is an i5. I checked the Dell site as they're a fairly typical maker of Windows PCs. You can get a 13" Inspiron laptop with an i5 CPU, 8GB RAM and 512GB SSD for £779. For normal office work, that's going to be an excellent machine, a high-end machine is not going to have any real benefit just for writing email and doing basic Excel stuff. It's not a premium model, but it's a lot better than the budget stuff. That leaves you with over £200 savings off the cheapest Macbook. That's literally the first Windows laptop I looked at, I didn't bother searching around for the cheapest.

https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops/new-inspiron-13-5000/spd/inspiron-13-5301-laptop/cn53104

For less than the price of the cheapest Macbook, you can get a 2-in-1 with touchscreen. No Macbook is available with a touchscreen at any price.

https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops/new-inspiron-13-7000-2-in-1/spd/inspiron-13-7306-2-in-1-laptop/cn70607

Lots of rubbish in here, must admit I do quite fancy a new M1 Macbook 🙂 Very impressed that they can waltz into the desktop PC market with a new CPU that rivals the top low power efforts from Intel and AMD.

I've owned a few XPS (recent 13 and 15 for example), a Surface, a couple of Macbooks etc. The Macbooks are definitely premium and generally annoy me less than the others, they're not infallible though. They keep changing their keyboard design, the previous ones felt terrible and could knacker with the smallest of crumbs. Most generations of Macbook Pro 15 will thermal throttle like mad and spend most of their life sounding like a vacuum cleaner and running at 25% speed.

My wifes iMacs randomly slowed down after a while, to a completely unusable level. Some sort of software issue, she had it reset and it came back after a while. Fortunately the screen then died, rendering the entire thing completely unusable. It was a work one so they've swapped it for a new one. Still don't understand iMacs, it's like an immovable laptop.

Also +1 to the above, Finder is rubbish, far worse than Windows Explorer. Xcode and Safari are rubbish too!

As I say, I do like the new Macbooks. Really fancy swapping my faithful 2014 Macbook Pro 15 for one, which I'm sure I'll regret. All the rubbish about them never having issues simply isn't true though. I have a 2012 Lenovo Thinkpad X230 which runs Windows 10 happily, I've upgraded the SSD, ram and trackpad, keep eyeing up new IPS screens for it for £50 🙂

Also +1 to the above, Finder is rubbish, far worse than Windows Explorer. Xcode and Safari are rubbish too!

I probably can't do an objective Mac vs PC comparison, because I only use Windows PCs intermittently and I haven't had time to get used to them / find workarounds for their annoyances. What I can do is tell you what I like and what I see as major benefits.

I don't love the Finder app, it's remarkably un-Apple and unintuitive. That said, most of its flaws are circumnavigated with (weird) keyboard shortcuts. E.g. CMD+shift+G to go to a folder, CMD+up to go 'up' one level (infuriatingly there's no clickable button for this).

But if you pair Finder with Spotlight (they're kind of the same thing) then IMO Mac OS has a huge advantage. I pretty much exclusively use Spotlight search to find files (actually now I use Alfred). Spotlight search has been awesome for years with instant results so it's part of my 'workflow'. I don't think Windows has an equivalent.

I didn't use Safari for ~5 years after I got a Mac. But it's decent now with some significant advantages on privacy, speed, battery life and iCloud tab syncing.

don't have a problem with Finder personally... obviously as said it's down to what you're used to, whenever I have to use Explorer I think, ugh, so cluttered! Not even occurred to me in the last 10 years that not having a "tree view" is a problem 🤣 (there is one of sorts if you insist, you can use column view) As said above using Spotlight/Alfred is the way forward, very intuitive

Safari is excellent if only for the integrations with other Apple stuff, keychain, wallet for ApplePay (i.e. select apple pay on website, confirm on Watch, done) etc etc

MacBook Air with the M1 chip. The equivalent Intel chip is an i5

All people are mentioning here is what they prefer about their own preferred OS and dislike about others.

Who'd have thought it was all down to personal preference. I'd never have guessed that myself. No siree! 😆

There's things to dislike and like about all the 3 os's mentioned.

Find what you like, make sure your software is compatible and go with it.

It's 2020. They are all pretty sophisticated and powerful. Provided you buy decent hardware.

MacBook Air with the M1 chip. The equivalent Intel chip is an i5

is it? Not according to anyone who’s actually used/tested one

It's the chip that the M1 replaced. I'm sure the M1 chips will perform impressively, but if you're just doing basic office work, I suspect you will be unlikely to notice any real-world difference. Once independent testers have a chance to benchmark them on tasks like video rendering, we'll have some idea of what they can do, beyond Apple's highly selective claims about their awesomeness.

Once independent testers have a chance to benchmark them on tasks like video rendering, we’ll have some idea of what they can do, beyond Apple’s highly selective claims about their awesomeness.

Eh? They have already done those tests and as has been stated the M1 roundly trounced the previous generation Intel chips. There are plenty of YouTube reviews if you want to go and look, including a load of ardent PC guys (LinusTechTips, for one) that were blown away by the performance. IIRC the cheap MacBook Air outperformed the iMac Pro in some tasks.

If you're only doing office work then maybe the battery life doubling will come in handy.

If you’re only doing office work then maybe the battery life doubling will come in handy.

If you're only doing office work, you'll have it plugged in and be using a proper monitor, keyboard, and mouse most of the time.

Who’d have thought it was all down to personal preference. I’d never have guessed that myself. No siree! 😆

Well in my case, of the laptops I tried, the MBP had the nicest keyboard. It literally did come down to that. I'm a translator, all I needed was a good screen, ability to run MS office and a nice keyboard.
Was leaning towards an XPS but couldn't get hold of one to try.

The MBP lives mostly in Linux except for the rare occasions I have to fire up office.

If you’re only doing office work, you’ll have it plugged in and be using a proper monitor, keyboard, and mouse most of the time.

OK. So you're saying you don't care about performance or battery life in a laptop?

OK. So you’re saying you don’t care about performance or battery life in a laptop?

No, I'm saying that if all you're doing is sitting at a desk using MS Office, any Intel i5 machine with 8GB RAM will be perfectly fine and you'll have it plugged in anyway, so battery life is irrelevant. If you're travelling a lot, being small, light, and having good battery life are important. If you're doing video editing, you'll care about brute performance. The most suitable machine will depend entirely on what you want to use it for.

I've just this morning pulled the trigger on the new M1 Macbook Air, to replace a 2014 15" MBP which has been flawless since new, but now has a failed battery and is about to fall off official support next year. I did plenty of research and as Superficial mentioned, there's plenty of very promising benchmark data available suggesting the M1 is more of an i7 and above replacement, ie https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/2