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Apologies if this had already been done, and for being about a week late.....
But WTAF is that about. How could anyone possibly look around the country and think hmmm, what shall we do...
1) Get a bit of additional money coming in for essential public services, local authority, NHS, missiles etc
2) Increase welfare so that people on the absolute breadline with no money have a bit more to survive on.
3) Reduce the tax burden on low earners so they can cope a bit with the huge increases in prices compared to incomes.
4) Increase the high rate band to £50k and give high earners a boost of £860.
Really. REALLY. Basic rate tax payers get £130, and high rate payers get £860. That's absolutely ****ing nuts. Are these people leaving in a different country to the one I can see?
Really. REALLY. Basic rate tax payers get £130, and high rate payers get £860. That’s absolutely **** nuts.
We're all in it together
Shoring up their base innit. Plus it helps to force more austerity on the plebs.
Was done to death in the Budget thread TL:DR It's tough when you earn decent money 😉
I'd rather it went to schools and the NHS
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/budget-2018/page/2/
It was in the news, I’ll guess we were all too busy writing it off as a pointless budget.
But yeah, they gave people on minimum wage an extra £13 a month and those on £50k a year an extra £43 a month through reduced taxation.
Like the higher rate in general though, it’s not very straight forward, because what the Income Tax giveth, the National Insurance doth taketh away.
Along with child benefit still not being sorted for two earners on 49999 each who get a full quota where 1 earner on 60000 gets **** all....
Yep all good stuff, not sure what to spend mine on yet. Cue crying from lazy poor people.
Name oldtalent
About Me Trying hard not to wind up the many bedwetters in the chat forum.
Obvious troll is obvious if you put it in your profile
I think it's more like £500 once the additional Nat. Insurance is accounted for, but no it's rediculous. Everyone would benefit from that extra being diverted to any number of struggling public services, and anyone on £45k + can afford £40 ish per month.
And I say that as someone who's going to benefit from this.
I would care - but Brexit means I don't - we'll be considerably better off for the coming economic apocalypse now.
If people cared about their public services, they shouldn't have voted Brexit - everyman for himself now.
I am looking forward to watching all the idiots crying on national tv about Brexit not helping the average man/woman on the street.
Scotland will welcome you if you wish to move North to prove that people are willing to pay more tax for better services (all signs at present are that the Scottish government are not going to move their thresholds by more than inflation), which given we already have a lower threshold has some people* in a panic that there will be a brain drain with people heading south to save a grand a year (unless they are funding kids through uni, have long term heath problems requiring prescription, or are planning to still be there when they are old and need cared for...).
*Tory politicians in the media, in reality I've heard very few people moan about it on the ground.
People seem to assume because people earn £50k a year they are comfortable, £50k in London wouldn’t by you a shed in someone’s garden..
we should all get an extra grand tax break that way we are reinvesting it in the economy, employment and increased vat
People seem to assume because people earn £50k a year they are comfortable, £50k in London wouldn’t by you a shed in someone’s garden..
Although it does allow you to lead quite a comfortable lifestyle when you are childless and in your mid-late 20's as my wife is.
But it is an odd earning bracket in London, not enough to own a house on one income but enough to piss money away without much thought.
People seem to assume because people earn £50k a year they are comfortable, £50k in London wouldn’t by you a shed in someone’s garden..
Nope just that you are a lot more comfortable than somebody living on 15-20k in London.....
Or kids at school
Or the NHS
Anyone know what the overall cost of each tax cut is?
Combined on the OBR figures (for obvious reasons)
but 2,790 Million in year 1 and dropping to 1,400-1,700(ish) for the following years
Me and the wife are a good bit over 50k each, whilst 860 seems a lot, I honestly don't think we would notice. My sister is a TA and 860 quid is like 7% of her income. She works her socks off and is on the breadline, it frankly sucks.
Anyone know what the overall cost of each tax cut is?
£2.3b IIRC
Also seems odd given that it’s massive disincentive for many people to make extra pension contributions.
many seem only to put the money aside in order to take advantage of the tax efficiency: that money is now taxed less even without being saved, so seems less likely to get saved at all.
Money not saved is spent - so providing an apparent boost to the economy (and a bit back in VAT). I can't think of any specific reason that the Govt might want to make it look like the economy is doing well next year....
Me and the wife are a good bit over 50k each, whilst 860 seems a lot, I honestly don’t think we would notice. My sister is a TA and 860 quid is like 7% of her income. She works her socks off and is on the breadline, it frankly sucks.
Give the money to her then...
whilst 860 seems a lot, I honestly don’t think we would notice
Nice place to be eh...
Nice place to be eh…
What £2.35 per day?
Good grief Mike, which set of politics are you supporting today?
What the ones where we redistribute to those who need it most. To the organisations who would benefit from a couple of billion in extra services or the people who we now support with benefit payments to subsidise their low wages.
Total nonsense, and that's from someone who will benefit (just). I have no time for lazy folks who can't be arsed working and are content to claim benefits, but let's be honest, that's a tiny minority .if you earn 50 k you don't need 500 quid extra a year. Another reason I will never ever vote for the tories.
I don't like paying tax, but am mindful I am in a very privileged position to have to do so. I work hard, but no harder than folks getting paid half what I earn.
Along with child benefit still not being sorted for two earners on 49999 each who get a full quota where 1 earner on 60000 gets **** all….
Neither should get any.
Job done.
Give the money to her then…
You assume I don't?
However I should not have to, a wage should put everyone in the position of being able to save a little as a bare minimum, the game is rigged for the well off. Your proposal only helps those people who have better off relatives, I'd rather pay more tax and help everyone less fortunate.
if you earn 50 k you don’t need 500 quid extra a year
As has been done to death, just because you earning £50k a year doesn’t mean you are rolling in cash*.
A 2 child family with a single £50k wage living in London will not be as well off as the same Family earning 2 x £25k in a small village in Northamptonshire.
It amazes me that in this place people pull arbitrary salary figures out of a hat and assume with no other data or consideration for people’s circumstances assume they are “rich”
*Although its better than less,obvs.
I’d rather pay more tax and help everyone less fortunate.
His mind has been blown!!!
So Kryton, after you have said that, I don't understand what this comment was supposed to mean?
Nice place to be eh…
I honestly don’t think we would notice
Nope, nor will I. I would rather the band had gone down to £40k and the lower band gone up to £20k. Yes I would notice the drop but so what, I will live.
It amazes me that in this place people pull arbitrary salary figures out of a hat and assume with no other data or consideration for people’s circumstances assume they are “rich”
It is simply putting it in perspective. A person earning £50k per year is rich compared to a person earning £12k per year, whatever way you look at it. Irrelevant where they live, how many kids they have etc,.
However I should not have to, a wage should put everyone in the position of being able to save a little as a bare minimum, the game is rigged for the well off. Your proposal only helps those people who have better off relatives, I’d rather pay more tax and help everyone less fortunate.
So you’ll be writing a cheque and sending it to HMRC then? Apparently it’s that easy.
No one does though.
jambo - don't bother mate. I'm not falling for your shite.
Enjoy your tax rebate then.
Any tax help is welcome, but still worse off than would have been a few years back due to increased NI, pension contributions, imposed contract changes, very poor wage increases.
Whats wrong with incentivising people to earn more money ?
Givj g a high earner more money and they won’t put it under the mattress, they will spend it which benefits the economy etc etc.
Jambo hmrc would just be forced to squander it
its like anything with too much money it just leads to wasteful spending.
give an extra £10 to a caricature unemployed they spend it on booze and fags
give an extra £250 to a youngster it’d be spent over the weekend
give an extra £700 to a dentist they’d put a 10% down payment on a new Santa Cruz
like it or not we live in a boom or bust world economy, simple gains are not desired
if the nhs got extra millions it would just be squandered on additional middle management or even more expensive lightbulb contracts.
Actually why is there no mention of the lower end tax bracket rise ?
That doesn’t benefit the lowest paid / poorest in the UK. That is just as disgusting.
Or is that ok because the OP and most people here will benefit from that tax break ?
Whats the revenue loss from this one ?
From April 2019 the personal allowance – the amount you can earn without paying any income tax – will be raised from £11,850 to £12,500
So Kryton, after you have said that, I don’t understand what this comment was supposed to mean?
If you post it in context you know what it means - its a sarcastic quote aimed at the person that suggested they wouldn’t notice and extra £800 or so. e.g. It’d be nice to be so comfortable that you don’t notice an extra £800 in your pocket.
Whats wrong with incentivising people to earn more money ?
Givj g a high earner more money and they won’t put it under the mattress, they will spend it which benefits the economy etc etc.
Raising the tax band has absolutely no impact on me trying to earn more money. The extras money will not benefit the economy, I will save it or use it to over pay my mortgage by a bit more.
Just move North if you want a more progressive tax system. Our rates are now dramatically different.
https://www.gov.uk/scottish-income-tax
Ok, this is a serious question. If you are lucky enough to benefit from this obvious bribe, but still think that it's wrong in principle, what would be the best thing to do with the money? Ruling out the send a cheque to HMRC option for now.
obvious bribe
Really? It wouldn’t sway me to Vote Tory in the slightest.
what would be the best thing to do with the money? Ruling out the send a cheque to HMRC option for now.
Send it to those living in London and only earning £50k a year.
Total nonsense, and that’s from someone who will benefit (just). I have no time for lazy folks who can’t be arsed working and are content to claim benefits, but let’s be honest, that’s a tiny minority .if you earn 50 k you don’t need 500 quid extra a year. Another reason I will never ever vote for the tories.
I don’t like paying tax, but am mindful I am in a very privileged position to have to do so. I work hard, but no harder than folks getting paid half what I earn.
+1
You could always give the extra money to charity. Then you can claim it back on your self assessment and pay less tax next year 😈
Ok, this is a serious question. If you are lucky enough to benefit from this obvious bribe, but still think that it’s wrong in principle, what would be the best thing to do with the money?
Give it to a charity that provides a need that you care about and that the government is underfunding. That way your money is being used directly rather than going into the government pot to just give more to the rich.
As an aside I don't understand why we have tax bands, I'm sure it just encourages those that can afford it to avoid paying tax. Surely just set it at 25% or whatever for everyone. I suppose you'd have to increase the living wage to offset it, hmm this is getting complicated. Also avoid taxing the same bit of money twice e.g. income tax then VAT. Just have a single point of tax.
But yeah also the child benefit allowance based on the single highest wage is bonkers, should be based on household income.
Dunc
Give a high earner more money and they won’t put it under the mattress, they will spend it which benefits the economy etc etc.
I presume you know what a weak argument that is. It's just a selfish justification. If you gave the tax break to poorer people then it would be back in the economy a hell of a lot faster than if it goes to someone comfortably off. Generally speaking the poorer person would indeed stash less of it "under the mattress" by necessity. And saying that poor people and the economy benefit significantly by giving money to the rich is just insulting.
Whats wrong with incentivising people to earn more money ?
People are incentivised to earn more money regardless of this tax break. If you get a pay rise you get more money, simples. It's not like the old stamp duty where pushing you into a different band means the higher rate applies to the full amount.
Ok, this is a serious question. If you are lucky enough to benefit from this obvious bribe, but still think that it’s wrong in principle, what would be the best thing to do with the money? Ruling out the send a cheque to HMRC option for now.
There is no best thing, everyone has their own personal justifications don't they. Support friends and family who are struggling? Support those who work for you but may well be on the breadline? Donate it to a charity, join a progressive political party (lib dems, greens, snp).
Actually why is there no mention of the lower end tax bracket rise ?
That doesn’t benefit the lowest paid / poorest in the UK. That is just as disgusting.
Or is that ok because the OP and most people here will benefit from that tax break ?
I didn't mention it because I think it is generally a good thing. As it helps people who need it.
As an aside I don’t understand why we have tax bands, I’m sure it just encourages those that can afford it to avoid paying tax.
The system is inherently unfair, not by design so much as an accident of fate. Money is non linear, ie if you earn less than you need to get by, you go into increasing debt, conversely once you get over a certain amount, then you have some to spare and you can use it to invest and make more money.
So progressive tax systems attempt to take this into account.
Kryton discussing with 5plusn8
If you post it in context you know what it means – its a sarcastic quote aimed at the person that suggested they wouldn’t notice and extra £800 or so. e.g. It’d be nice to be so comfortable that you don’t notice an extra £800 in your pocket.
Crumbs kryton. This isn't that hard to understand. The whole point of this thread is that it's wrong to give this extra £860 to someone who is so comfortable that they don't notice an extra 800 notes in their pocket.
Yes, and the person I referenced stated they would even notice an extra £800 in thier pocket, to which my reaction was “that must be a nice place to be”.
I don’t know why the fuss. One minute high earners are slated for the latest tax benefit, next minute me being critical of someone well off enough to brag about that and I’m the bad one.
The whole point of this thread is that it’s wrong to give this extra £860 to someone who is so comfortable that they don’t notice an extra 800 notes in their pocket.
Exactly, which is why I thought it was a little uncalled for.
One minute high earners are slated for the latest tax benefit, next minute me being critical of someone well off enough to brag about that and I’m the bad one.
1) Many high earners did not choose the latest tax benefit, in fact the middle earners eg 50-150k are more likely to vote for prgressive taxation like lib dems or greens, it is the poor and the very rich who vote tory.
2) I was not bragging, I was pointing out that I didn't need, nor want a tax rebate, do you want people on side for your argument or not?
3) Do you think it is morally wrong to work hard, take your opportunities and be lucky?
Ok, this is a serious question. If you are lucky enough to benefit from this obvious bribe, but still think that it’s wrong in principle, what would be the best thing to do with the money? Ruling out the send a cheque to HMRC option for now.
Give it to a remain campaign fund or a foreign charity, then tell any working class Tories you know.
I don’t know why the fuss. One minute high earners are slated for the latest tax benefit, next minute me being critical of someone well off enough to brag about that and I’m the bad one.
Forgive me if I've got this wrong. I can't retrawl the thread on this shit phone.... but he wasn't bragging.... he was making an honest and admirable point. He acknowledged that he was in a lucky enough position to benefit from this BUT he still thinks it's a bad thing.
I think he and you are essentially saying exactly the same thing.
This thread would be pointless if it was 'just' a bunch of low rate earners complaining about high rate earners getting more money. But the fact that various high rate earners have been 'brave' enough to chip in and agree makes me think that it really is an evil thing.
Only one or two people have said anything good about the break, which gives me some heart.
Good old STW logging people out when they’ve posted to a thread.
Maybe the extra £500 a year could go to investing in a forum that works for its users 🤣
I somehow doubt it though.
Give it to a remain campaign fund or a foreign charity, then tell any working class Tories you know.
Like.
@thegeneralist - thanks. That's exactly what I was saying.
But the fact that various high rate earners have been ‘brave’ enough to chip in and agree makes me think that it really is an evil thing.
crocodile tears.
I said in the other thread we had about the same topic..
I’m in the higher rate tax band and I think the Tory’s have made a political decision to gain votes.
Thats all.
Its lip service to satisfy thier incompetence and general lack of any social reasoning.
I’m in the higher rate tax band and I think the Tory’s have made a political decision to gain votes.
The weird thing is that the people who it will likely benefit the most, will likely not respond in the way the Tories want. However it is well known that people on lower incomes hate tax. I am not sure why, I think its possibly because its always seems like a huge chunk of money to them, and possibly they aspire to higher incomes, that they view these cuts as a good thing.
Also the tories don't care if the middle income earners do or don't change their vote as they represent a small minority of the country. This is aimed squarely at the people who will benefit from it the least - much like brexit...
e.g. It’d be nice to be so comfortable that you don’t notice an extra £800 in your pocket
Im sure everyone would notice an £800 wedge, (or actually nearer £500) but it doesn't work like that. It's an extra £40/month on a take home of around £2500. Low wage earners, the genuinely poor or public services would notice that a lot more!
It’s an extra £40/month on a take home of around £2500.
^This.
I will benefit from this but I certainly won't notice.
The tax break should of been given by raising the personal allowance.
Give it to the people who need it.
Personally, I think it's bloody hilarious. I've given up caring about Turkeys voting for Christmas.
Let them have it their way guys, don't feel too guilty about it, they wouldn't give a shit if you and your family were thrown under a bus because of Brexit.
I'll benefit from it, but only just, it puts me very close to dropping out of the 40% bracket all together, which would be a bad thing for my pension contribution tax relief, childcare vouchers and upcoming C2W purchase, however it could all balance out if my company car tax was cut in half..
I do think its wrong though - i'd rather they'd raised the 20% threshold a bit more as it would have helped everyone, especially those who need it more than me.
This won't change the way i vote though - i'll not be voting for either the Tories or Labour as neither are fit for office at the moment.
Extra £500 is £100 VAT when spent (on full VATable items), more money to the business they've spent it on, more money for investment or maybe salaries, more tax from income, more money spent by employees and VAT on their spending, etc.
Effectively it may make little or no difference to the tax man. Less take in one area may be more take in another.
Though if everyone just saves the money and invests it, then that's another matter, though playing the long game the tax man still gets it in the end, unless they move offshore.
Extra £500 is £100 VAT when spent (on full VATable items), more money to the business they’ve spent it on, more money for investment or maybe salaries, more tax from income, more money spent by employees and VAT on their spending, etc.
Effectively it may make little or no difference to the tax man.
That's my take on it. at first glance it seems a bit mental but could easily be as near as damn it revenue neutral. I can't see how it can possibly cost 2.8 million, unless literally everyone sets fire to the money they save.
Tax is largely about finding the sweet spot on the Laffer Curve, and Labour's response suggests it's not as mental as it seems:
Portillo made the point on "This Week" that it could be politically dumb. A lot of voters want the deficit reduced - we're currently paying 8% of tax spend on interest payments, I'm sure many voters think there are better things we cold be doing with that cash.
. I can’t see how it can possibly cost 2.8 million, unless literally everyone sets fire to the money they save.
It's costing 2,700 million
Even if it's all spent on UK taxed items then you don't get it all back, spend it on amazon from abroad or German bike shops then only the post office gets a little bit. Spend it at Starbucks and UK sees very little of it...
If all people do is pay off a little debt then it's not much of a win.
Spend all of that down the ladder a bit and you get more benefits for this who really need it.
Extra £500 is £100 VAT when spent (on full VATable items), more money to the business they’ve spent it on, more money for investment or maybe salaries, more tax from income, more money spent by employees and VAT on their spending, etc.
Effectively it may make little or no difference to the tax man. Less take in one area may be more take in another.
This
The interesting thing to me is that Labour have said they wouldn't reverse it, but would introduce another rate at 80k . Do they recognize that 50k isn't necessarily 'rich' anymore?
Portillo made the point on “This Week” that it could be politically dumb. A lot of voters want the deficit reduced – we’re currently paying 8% of tax spend on interest payments, I’m sure many voters think there are better things we cold be doing with that cash.
Reducing the debt makes much more sense than raising the higher limit threshold as theoretically everyone would benefit from less wastage on interest payments, but it's not exactly selling the 'Austerity is Over' message.
I'd rather it went directly into education or health but I doubt there's much political capital in 'look what you could have won ..'
In addition to the more spending argument its one that could easily be made if you used the cash to employ more nurses. coppers and teachers.
Same budget gave a 1 off 50quid per pupil bunus for secondary pupils for extra stuff like books and all the other stuff underfunded at the moment.
The met are taking the government to court over funding cuts and selling image rights to fund policing.
This is all about priorities.
Raising the 40% band, by more than inflation, is a way to counter salary stagnation, and the effects that has on the economy. Of course, cancelling the upcoming insanely harsh cuts to local authority budgets would be far more productive… the priority here is well off... not sure it's a bribe, but it shows government priorities… cut the state and offer tax cuts…
It’s costing 2,700 million
No chance. That would require no behaviour change at all and nobody to spend any of it on *any* taxable item. It Small changes in tax *do* shift revenue along the laffer curve, no matter how unlikely it seems from anecdotal evidence.
Givj g a high earner more money and they won’t put it under the mattress, they will spend it which benefits the economy etc etc.
Nope, they'll just save it or stick it in their pension (speaking personally).
NB Plenty of studies have shown that tax rebates to the rich cause less spending than the same amount given to the poor, where nearly all of it gets spent immediately on essentials like food and heating.
No chance. That would require no behaviour change at all and nobody to spend any of it on *any* taxable item.
That is the government figure in the budget papers. Its the direct tax take it they are giving up on to hope they get part of that back.
As said you could get much more for your money spending that on health, education etc or debt reduction as suggested above.
Do they recognize that 50k isn’t necessarily ‘rich’ anymore?
Double the average UK salary.
Extra £500 is £100 VAT when spent (on full VATable items)
I think your arithmetic is wrong there.
Double the average UK salary.
I'm not denying that.
I'm only commenting on the fact that Labour wouldn't reverse the increase, or even bring in a lower limit (a la Ecosse)