[Closed] Anyone worked with a metal fabricator to build a prototype of a product?

I have done some of those tour De whatever the hell they were loading 10 bikes on the roof of an estate for racks....they sell for about 5k make spare ones and sell them

You should be ok. If you find the right person they'll be happy enough to work from rough sketches and tweak as you go. Aluminium would be make it a bit trickier and more expensive. Could you live with steel for now to get the shape and function then get one in aluminium once you have it a bit more resolved? I know a few guys local to me (Bristol) but you'll have to ask around to find someone. Cost will depend on material and finish quality but could be fairly cheap

Just look for local metal fabricators, machine shops, sheet metal places near you and ring around.

You'll soon get an idea of people who will help you out and those who won't be interested.
There'll be some who deal mainly with production stuff at high volume and those who specialise in prototype/smaller runs. If you explain what you want, they'll point you in the right direction and good ones will be able to make recommendations to improve the product from a durability, cost, ease of manufacture etc. point of view...

Have you watched any of Project Binky? That should give you an idea how complicated it can be make to make a "simple" part.

Yeah don't give up if a few are quick to put the phone down, as said above some have a lot of production stuff going on, some tend to scratch around from one job to the next, you should be able to find someone willing, I'd aim for the smaller places though. Is it something you'd look at taking to market eventually? They may be a little keener if they can see a bit of pay back in it long term with short production runs.

A hand drawing will be fine as long as it has general dimensions on, some could probably work directly off your prototype

I'd try to meet them half way initially as well, steel is generally more common than ali, and if you've spec'd say 15mm tube but they set up for 12mm and have loads on the shelf (or something close) if it still suits give it a go, half the work in stuff like this is them having to strip their jigs down and set up, if you can take that out of the equation it'd be simpler for them to do (although I'd doubt its that much of a job...)

A mate gets all his 1-off prototype fab stuff from China, cheaper than UK and standard 2 week turnaround (which is generally what I find here unless you have a great customer relationship with them) from what Ive seen its just fab'd plate work though

If it's tube try to keep the bend radius wide'ish, it'll depend what kit they've got but be prepared for your design to change a little depending what tools they have to hand, I'm sure there was a rule about bending tube that the min rad was half the O/D....or something, its been a while.

As above.

I get a lot of one offs made for work projects. My advice would be
1) be flexible, but not too much. Some things they can suggest can make it easier to make but end up spoiling it functionally. If they suggest something take it away to think about before going back with a new drawing.

2) "a quick sketch" is fine. But be prepared for the finished product to look exactly like your sketch. They won't interpret it how your minds eye sees it. Do make sure you show dimensions properly, even as an engineer I still draw stuff and get the inside/outside dimensions the wrong way round and even if I take a CAD drawing to them we usual get a blank sheet out and they'll sketch it again to make sure every dimension is clear to both of us.

3) don't expect it to be cheap.

How big is this rack?

If you are really serious about turning it into a product then you'll really want to get some CAD done (these days, a months licence for say Fusion360 is less than £50 and there are plenty of tutorials on you tube to follow) and a few prototypes made. You might be able to get something fabricated from pre bent tubular sections so it becomes a simple weld it up type job which anyone can do. It's well worth considering making the end product capable of being CNC formed (CNC tube bender) because that's how it will be made in volume, so you may as well design it to be manufactured. (Plenty of ideas for products fall down when people take their hand made prototype and try to get a thousand made and find out it just isn't suitable for mass production)

One option that strikes me as sensible is to see if you can get a bike frame manufacturer onboard with the product, both for their skills and the symbiosis of that linkup (in terms of them already knowing the market and production route etc)

Here' some decent rendered CAD (again, really easy these days with something like Fusion360 etc) will be worth a lot in terms of showing you are serious!

I have had one offs produced to my spec , all out of stainless steel which has its advantages and disadvantages
It may pay to draw each part individually on A3 or A2 paper . At least what you have in mind , they will then say 'ah if we do this we can use a single peice of thingy and work it through that machine there and it will XX cheaper and stronger and quicker '
You need a small outfit in a dirty industrial unit with blokes in overalls and haphazard bits of metal , machinery and tools everywhere . They seem to be the most flexable , and a saturday morning at their works ( take biscuits ) should see you right .
Welding is expensive now in the UK . 15yr olds who weld in sunglasses in India/China is massively cheaper for some reason

Realistically, you are looking at anything from £20-£40 an hour for a fabricator to work for you (depending where in the country you are).
If you aleady have one lashed up then it should make it easier and quicker to copy.
As said above, better off going to a backstreet fabricator. (Make a change from doing railings )

these days, a months licence for say Fusion360 is less than £50 and there are plenty of tutorials on you tube to follow

Fusion360 is free if you are a hobbyist or have a turnover of <£100,000.
And it's a very powerful tool for something that's free!

Cheers fellas. Some good stuff there - thanks!

I'm confident I'll make slightly less of an arse of myself now. :o)

Oh, and keep tolerances reasonable (the larger the better), which should be part of the design process. Idiot me once dimensioned something to +-0.01 and a lovely machine shop in Keighley laughed at me a lot. Then taught me lots.

http://www.protopipe.co.uk have done some fantastic work for me, some crazy pipework for Nike window displays.

But yeah local is always good! Sheet metal guys don't seem to like one off production and prototyping, but you can Ajay's get stuff ladder cut and do a "soft" bend by putting slots in.

Laser process in Cannock are who I use

Oh and if you want actual help with production I hooked the Tailfin guys up with their manufacturer.

2) “a quick sketch” is fine. But be prepared for the finished product to look exactly like your sketch. They won’t interpret it how your minds eye sees it. Do make sure you show dimensions properly, even as an engineer I still draw stuff and get the inside/outside dimensions the wrong way round and even if I take a CAD drawing to them we usual get a blank sheet out and they’ll sketch it again to make sure every dimension is clear to both of us.

Always. Speak to them with the drawing in hand if you can, In a Ron Bergandy style, they will produce EXACTLY what you draw....

I remember being an ultra keen product designer getting my first job, then soon after excitedly waiting for the first thing I'd ever professionally designed (some bent metal shelf gantry) to come in so I could fit and test it, it came in completely back to front as although I'd spent ages fretting over tolerances I'd not checked which angle I'd used to project on the drawing...

I suggest that if you can find some one who is willing to be with them whilst they produce it. This way you can modify the design as is necessary during manufacture. There's less chance of misinterpretation and you will understand how easy it is to make. If you are looking to try and sell the design or market it you will have to try and think of the best way to manufacture it in numbers. You want to minimise the steps required to make it and avoid costly little jobs that add time to manufacture.

Where are you located? I am in the West Midlands and know a few places you can get in touch with.

It might be worth contacting some local (bike) framebuilders to see if they'd be willing to help, particularly if you can tolerate doing a prototype in steel as suggested above. They'll be used to doing one-off builds and probably have most of the tools and skills you need (although I don't know what your design involves).

They'll obviously be interested in bikes, which will help, and some may even have experience making custom racks.

Lister and I have a good friend who is already an arse so there's no chance of you looking foolish. He also happens to own an awesome metal prototyping business.

For our last big trip to the alps he rattled this rack up so we could take our bikes on fun cars:

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Pm me if you want to be put in touch.

This is a rack to attach bags and other stuff to your bike, not a rack to attach your bike to something else?

I've replied to your original thread - the info isn't really relevant to this one but good luck.

The rack on the Elise was a work of art! So many nice shiny CNC'd parts. I still can't work out how you guys managed to get 4 peoples kit in an Elise and a tiny Fiat!

*Waves* I'm one of the guys that was in the Escort that year.

Thanks all... I'm in the sunny North East, so I guess I'll be best off speaking to someone local.

Yeah, this is a rack for carrying stuff on a bike, but the principle is the same.

Already thought about potentially speaking to frame builders, so may do that. I'm just waiting for a couple of things to arrive in the post that will mean I can complete my own v2 and this should help explain it a bit better to someone who might be able to make one.

And I'm doing a three day/three night ride next month, mostly off-road, which will be another good test for it.

Yeah our trained monkey was very very pleased with his own work (and we were slightly in awe, but we won't let on, ever). Shame he binned that S1 into a lamppost about 4 months later, on a straight road in the pouring rain. 240brake in 800kg of mid-engined car makes for some amusing wet weather handling traits. Rack won't fit his newer S2.

Edit: Ahh you're in the NE. I have another mate who runs this: https://www.amtech-rp.com/

Ah, me too - Newcastle, well Wallsend.

Might be worth having a word with Mike Galbraith at Fountain Design, based near Durham: http://www.fountaindesign.co.uk/ He's done all sorts of one-off bits and pieces for us (I work in Electrical Engineering at Newcastle Uni). Quite a character as well.

I've noticed a fabricator in North Shields near the sorting office that I always want to go an nosey around. They look like the sort of small outfit that might be interested in that sort of thing.

>>I’ve noticed a fabricator in North Shields near the sorting office.

Aye, reet. I'm just in Whitley and hate that sorting office with a passion. Or at least I hate the queues.

I'll have a look - ta! What are they called - any idea?

@hot_fiat: Oof... Amtech appears to be across the water in South Shields. It'll take something special to persuade me to travel in that direction. :oD

@thenorthwind: Ha... just spotted that you work at the Uni. Me too. Small world.

Oh cool... which bit of the uni?

It's on the same road as the sorting office, first (or second) unit on the left as you go towards the sorting office - Streetview should get you a name.

Know what you mean about the queues - I try and avoid going on a Saturday morning if I can possibly help it!

Medical School... but based in Ridley 1.

Ah, I'm just across the road (I think) in Merz. Small world indeed.