[Closed] Anyone regretted getting a dog?

I get people love their dogs, but arguing that dog shit doesn’t stink is next level dog ownership…

I've often thought that taking an interest in your dog having "healthy" stools and dealing with them should be a requirement of dog ownership.

Cant deal with shit, cannot have a dog!

8 months since we bought her home and haven’t regretted a single moment.

Yes the training can be hard work and yes she needs consideration for almost everything we plan (holidays, nights out etc)

But the pros outweigh all of that by a long way.

I definitely regret my friend getting two rottweilers after one of them jizzed down my suit trouser leg yesterday about an hour before my friends wedding.

Cant deal with shit, cannot have a dog!

there is dealing with it, and then there is arguing with strangers on the internet that it doesn’t stink…

he sticks to my back wheel like velcro

Almost like a well-formed dog-turd?

We've been doing emergency foster care for a local charity. The last dog was only here a few weeks but the current one has been here a while and will probably be staying a lot longer. He was quite disruptive and quite a handful but he's getting much better. We already worked from home and went out walking quite a lot (without a dog) but it's still a huge change. Every trip needs to be thought about. Take him and it limits where we go, leave him and it limits how long we can go out. Can't just nip into shops, have to choose pubs carefully, weekends away are a big logistical exercise. Worth it though. Other than the poop, there is also the wee. He likes to wee on things, that's OK if its a bush, less so when it is someone else's property. We are getting good and catching him thinking about it and stopping him now, but it is another thing to be always thinking about. Here he is thinking about weeing on some expensive bikes*, he didn't as there was so much dropped food around (another thing to always be thinking about):
[img] [/img]

I think the only slight regret would be personal exercise. They say getting a dog is a great way to get out and get exercise but IME if you are already getting out and getting exercise then a dog can actually be a limiter.

* I do like how he matches Dan and Gee's bikes with his black and orange look 🙂

@jam-bo The argument is being caused by people saying there is no worse smell in this world than dog shit which might be the case for them but I imagine most people can think of many things that smell much worse.
As well as people refusing to accept that if a dog is fed properly and in good health, their shit shouldn't smell badly. It's never going to used as smelling salts obviously.
But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of what you want to post.

Agree on the point about exercise. If you don't exercise, dogs can really help but if you are fit and you exercise with your dog, you risk over doing it and causing health problems later on in life.

there is dealing with it, and then there is arguing with strangers on the internet that it doesn’t stink…

Everyone needs a hobby

They're a colossal pain and really binding. Unfortunately, my wife's mum wouldn't let her have a dog as a kid so we've had five over the last 15 years or so.

They're more of a bother than kids, and for longer.

We don't regret not getting one.

We gave serious consideration to getting a dog about three years ago. However we're now in the happy situation of walking several dogs belonging to friends and neighbours. The dogs sometime come for overnights, or we take them away for the day to the beach and the like.

For us it's the ideal scenario. We get to do lots of fun stuff with the dogs without being tied down, and without the vet bills. We've a great relationship with the dogs now (one of whom almost has to be dragged home when she's been at our house...she sees it as a holiday I think).

Might not work for everyone, but for us it's been fantastic.

The argument is being caused by people saying there is no worse smell in this world than dog shit which might be the case for them but I imagine most people can think of many things that smell much worse.
As well as people refusing to accept that if a dog is fed properly and in good health, their shit shouldn’t smell badly. It’s never going to used as smelling salts obviously.
But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of what you want to post.

In my previous job I had my nose calibrated. You might think that’s a joke but I collected evidence for criminal cases for waste companies and industrial sites who illegally allowed smells to escape their premises which made local residents life hell. So I had to prove my sense of smell had been checked as being very accurate to defend my evidence in court.
The only smell I’ve never had to experience is rotting human flesh - I’m told by a police friend that it’s very distinct and you never forget it - but I’ve smelt stuff that has made people vomit straight away. You never get used to it but it has less of an effect on you.
Worst smell I ever smelt was a chicken processing factory which didn’t control its waste properly, the smell was from entrails and other carcass bits rotting in skips outside. On a par with that was a rendering plant. Next down the the line is dog poo, which was better than the household waste processing plants and all the other farm type smells I experiences. Sewers which I deal with in this job are never that bad.
So if I’ve said dog poo was the worst smell I’ve ever smelt I take it back and apologise but it’s worse than most smells most people will experience in their lives. But that’s just my professional viewpoint.

I inherited my sister's dog last October when a change in work meant she could no longer look after it properly, and I'll echo everyone else who's said dog ownership is a huge disruption to your daily life. She needs regular walking, which of course means that if I'm heading out early I now need to get up even earlier to take her out. And it's raining? Tough, off you go. I've just got back from visiting some kennels which I'll be needing when we go away - another thing to consider that I never had to worry about before.

But despite that I don't regret saying yes when my sister asked me if I could look after Lulu. She's a lovely dog, and reasonably well-behaved, and I enjoy walking her. And dog shit does smell bad, but I've smelt worse.

I’m an occasional supply early years teaching assistant. The dog’s poo is, in general, easier to deal with and better smelling than that of the kids. Still not nice though.

On a separate but related note, I made some flags so if wife or child finds a poo in the garden, they can flag it and I will deal. I realise this was a mistake.

In my previous job I had my nose calibrated.

Interlinked. Cells within cells.

Yeah rotten human flesh is pretty rank and I’m not even calibrated.

People really need to stop equating dogs to kids.

The OP could have just called this thread: I don't like dogs and I'm looking to start an argument. Would have been more honest.

I made some flags so if wife or child finds a poo in the garden, they can flag it and I will deal.

Like an emergency Union Jack, sort of thing?

People really need to stop equating dogs to kids.

Why?

Needy, take over your life, but apparently highly rewarding.

The OP could have just called this thread: I don’t like dogs and I’m looking to start an argument.

... and I'm looking to troll dog apologists who think their furbaby's shit doesn't stink?

😁

I like dogs.
But, i work shifts and i hate dogshit.
So i chose to not have a dog.
Doesn’t seem too hard to figure out, surely?

They’re more of a bother than kids, and for longer.

I’d be questioning my parent skills if my dog lasted longer than my kids.

Who's always happy to see me no matter what when I walk in the house?

I've warned the family that if there's ever a fire I'm rescuing the dog, the rest of them can fend for themselves 😀

I’d be questioning my parent skills if my dog lasted longer than my kids.

I'm less likely to be charged for throttling the dog ..

So if I’ve said dog poo was the worst smell I’ve ever smelt I take it back and apologise but it’s worse than most smells most people will experience in their lives. But that’s just my professional viewpoint.

What the....?

Are you suggesting that most people have never smelt dog poo?

I don't mind being trolled but I am most offended at the inference that I call my dog a furbaby 🙂

Today, her shit did stink. But that's because she scavenged some food some selfish * neglected to not buy in the first place or eat in its entirety or dispose of in a bin, so she's now having to have some digestive supplements along with her food.
And the reason she doesn't eat a barf diet, which results in the least offensive poo, is because some other selfish * threw away food and she got food poisoning so bad that she had to go to the emergency vet and be put on a drip. And it likely triggered IBS that now has to be kept under control.

So, keeping her poo smelling as inoffensive as possible is not always easy - but after much trial and error, many nights of interrupted sleep and pain/discomfort for her, I seem to have found a diet that suits her - and surprise surprise it's all down to the selfishness of inconsiderate human beings.

I’m still up at 2 or 3 AM most nights,

Why?

She barks to go out, but as she sleeps downstairs on her own, I’m not totally convinced that it’s not just because she wants to see someone.

I have left her to bark a few times, and she does quieten down, but then on one or two occasions I’ve come down to a puddle of wee.

I’d be questioning my parent skills if my dog lasted longer than my kids.

Both my kids have outlived multiple dogs.

The dogs required walking and feeding and their turds dealing with for their whole lives with us. The kids learned to use and flush toilets pretty quickly and weren't likely to starve if left alone.

Plus, that state looked after the kids all day for free after a couple of years while the dogs require us to inconvenience relatives and/or spend money on taking care of them through the day.

Double bagged in scented nappy bags and carried in a chalk bag until near a bin make for a more pleasant walk.

We've only had ex-racing greyhounds, some have been harder work than others, current pooch is a gift. 3yo, very affectionate and lazy as hell.

She barks to go out, but as she sleeps downstairs on her own, I’m not totally convinced that it’s not just because she wants to see someone.

Yeah it’ll be a behavioural thing. If when she was a pup you got up at 3am to let her out she’ll expect that now. It can still be broken, even learning to be dry. It will be harder now then when she was a pup though.

and surprise surprise it’s all down to the selfishness of inconsiderate human beings.

dog owner 101, always someone else's fault... 😉

Everywhere I go, I see signs telling me to pick up my dog's shit but not one telling people to pick up litter. And guess what many public spaces are strewn with. I'll give you a clue: it's not dog shit. So yeah, it is someone else's fault and that's the litter lout.

@tenfoot could she not sleep upstairs with you? Even if not in the same room. It might well be separation anxiety or could even be a medical problem. If you rule out SA then maybe it's time for a visit to the vet.
When mine had really bad tummy problems, she woke me up 9 times one night. She won't go in the garden, so I had to get dressed and take her out. Then she'd see a badger and nearly take me off my feet as she tried to give chase... I did have one or two regrets around that time!
She is much better now and rarely wakes me. I couldn't cope with being woken up every night though. Might be worth investigating as I can't imagine it's much fun being woken up every night.

Another in the likes dogs can't be doing with having one camp.

The dogs required walking and feeding and their turds dealing with for their whole lives with us. The kids learned to use and flush toilets pretty quickly and weren’t likely to starve if left alone.

Kids also usually end up earning their keep and/or moving out & paying for themselves, if they didn't I'd be a pauper by now trying to feed & clothe 7 adult humans.

And guess what many public spaces are strewn with. I’ll give you a clue: it’s not dog shit.

err. It is. Or even worse, dog shit in bags.

Kids also usually end up earning their keep and/or moving out & paying for themselves

Usually takes longer than a dog lives, unless you can get them sweeping chimneys

My eldest is 19 earns her own keep has done for almost 3 years now. Still costs me money, still have to make arrangements sometimes based around her life.

err. It is. Or even worse, dog shit in bags.

There’s far more litter than stray turds or swinging bags of shit. Typical dog hater blaming dog owners, always someone else’s fault.

We have a dog – I don't regret getting her as she gives so much joy to our 12 yr old girls (they both absolutely adore her). However it's me that does almost all the anti-social walking (ie, the early mornings 365 days a year whatever the weather) and she is rubbish off the lead (our fault I know). But would I get another? Probably not but hopefully she will outlive our daughters' childhood and they will be away to university/left home when she dies (which I am already dreading).

I don't get the stress about picking up turds though - it really is no big deal.

err. It is. Or even worse, dog shit in bags.

Not where I live it isn't. A lot of dog owners and very little dog shit in or out of bags left lying around. Littering is far worse and even that's not particularly bad for a reasonable sized town.

Usually takes longer than a dog lives, unless you can get them sweeping chimneys

The eldest did work with me for a while - surveying chimneys & designing industrial and commercial boiler flues, admittedly not at 10yo 😜

No, never regretted it, but would have to think hard about committing another 15 years to being a dog servant again.

I live in a place where my dogs can run free for a couple of hours a day and I think that’s the minimum they require. I wouldn’t get a dog bigger than a Jack Russell in town where all they could do is walk round the park on a lead; it’s no life for them.

@tenfoot could she not sleep upstairs with you? Even if not in the same room. It might well be separation anxiety or could even be a medical problem.

As Drac says, it’s a behavioural problem, most definitely bought on by me when she was younger. Totally my fault. My wife has told me I pander to her (the dog, that is) too much, and should just let her bark, but I’d rather go down, let her out and be back to sleep again in a few minutes. I know, I’ll never break the cycle this way, but quite often I’ll take the opportunity to answer a call of nature myself, so it’s not really an issue.

Interesting topic.

We have a 15 month old working cocker spaniel. Have posted a few things about him before. I regret it and I don't regret it. Sometimes that is a 50/50 split, other times very much leaning towards regret. I wasn't sold on the idea but my girlfriend has wanted one all her life. A puppy was always going to be difficult and I laid out my reservations very clearly beforehand. Anyway, 15 months later and we have a fairly good dog that can't be left alone and is in full teenager mode. Our lives have been changes a lot by him. However, I have to try and see the positives. He is very sweet, and he is great to have around the house. He is always excited to see everyone, however his off lead work is very difficult. His recall goes out the window when other dogs are around. My gf has put a huge amount of work into training which is ongoing and it is very slowly starting to show. I do miss him if I'm away for a couple of days, so he must be having some affect on me. Oh, and as someone above aluded too, the thought of outliving him does make me very sad.

Would I get another one after him? Maybe, as I'll likely be in my 50s and it will fit my lifestyle better.

Got 2 dogs. Waited for over 20yrs before we decided our family was ready for them. Had a cat for the previous 20yrs. Had a dog when i was a kid so had an idea of whats involved.

The STW attitude to this does not surprise me. The comments about how they 'get in the way of life/activities' is pretty much the same kind of attitude i see when people discuss anything that effects their ability to look after number 1 on here. It never fails to surprise me when posts crop up about failing marriages and families when people look at everything so self centered.

We got dogs because they would add to our family. Nothing is a sacrifice in their regard. They are a member of the family and the decision was made by all to welcome them here. If we have family commitments, we make sure their needs are taken care of. They didnt ask to be part of your family. They are walked 4 x per day and every member of the household is involved. Picking up their shit ranks about 0.1 on the difficulty scale tbh and anyone who owns a dog that finds it anything more wants to have a look at themselves. Of course dogs arent for everyone but its even worse to be a dog 'owner' who feels their dog is in any way effecting their life negatively just because they need a bit of work.

I get to greet them 1st thing in a morning and they greet me every time i get home from work. Not once in the 1000's of time it happens have they been anything other than overjoyed to see me.

Everywhere I go, I see signs telling me to pick up my dog’s shit but not one telling people to pick up litter. And guess what many public spaces are strewn with.

It staggers me that signs would be considered either necessary or effective. Like anyone would think "wait, I can't just drop my takeaway packaging randomly on the floor whilst my dog's having a poo? Thank god for the signage, I had no idea!"

The **** is wrong with people?

There’s far more litter than stray turds or swinging bags of shit. Typical dog hater blaming dog owners, always someone else’s fault.

Typical dog apologist blaming non-dog owners for being "haters," always someone else’s problem.

None of those things are acceptable, pointing at one as an excuse for the other is shit from a much larger animal.

No excuses for dog shit not being picked up or left in the bags. We actually have a bin near us which someone must have burnt down at some point (Public park). Bloody idiots think its ok to dump bags of poo in the remains of this bin, even though its been like that for years.

As with cycling, there will always be bad elements. The good ones just need to keep highlighting it to the bad ones when they witness it.

The STW attitude to this does not surprise me. The comments about how they ‘get in the way of life/activities’ is pretty much the same kind of attitude i see when people discuss anything that effects their ability to look after number 1 on here.

Wow, so anyone who doesn't want a dog because of the commitment is self centred, having brought up 3 kids as a single parent & now being responsible for 2 more (their fathers are not involved) I resent that & besides I think the environmental effect of having 5 kids is bad enough without adding to it by having a dog as well.

Typical dog hater blaming dog owners

i quite like the dogs. its the owners that are generally the problem. 😉

Dickyboy resent all you like. Maybe even read it properly next time.

Wow, so anyone who doesn’t want a dog because of the commitment is self centred, having brought up 3 kids as a single parent & now being responsible for 2 more (their fathers are not involved) I resent that & besides I think the environmental effect of having 5 kids is bad enough without adding to it by having a dog as well.

Where did i say anyone NOT wanting a dog because of the commitment is self centred? My suggestion was that anyone who has a dog and then complains about their effect on their life/activities is self centred. How stupid does a person need to be to find a dog effects things?

What has your ability to raise kids got to do with the point i made? Well done to you

The STW attitude to this does not surprise me.

Nothing in your post states it was about people who had already had dogs just "STW attitude" & there are plenty of posts from people stating why the wouldn't get dogs, perhaps I was barking up the wrong tree or perhaps you need to be more precise 🤔

Typical dog apologist blaming non-dog owners for being “haters,” always someone else’s problem.

I think you missed the satire.

Four cat's are easier. I'll rise you dog poo smell, 4 HOUSE cat's poo smell, and cat wee. With effort it's easily managable, especially when they can't use the 'cat run'

Oh and cat's all tend to poop one after the other when 'inside'. Big job cleaning and flushing.

That said, they keep themselves entertained, usually at 1am and 4am with 'zoomies'.

Well, getting back on topic, I had a 30 min lunch break in Teams calls today while working at home so took Ollie the cockapoo out for some well needed fresh air for us both. He had a huge roll in fox poo and was marched home, entering the shower 8 mins before I had to be back on calls. We made it, just, and I kinda regretted it all, till I dried out 😂

It was an all day workshop so I didn’t want to change my shirt !

No regret here. Two greyhounds, had Jez for about 7 years, Sal for 5ish. They've helped me reduce the amount I drink, as I realised walking them with a hangover was not pleasant for me, but also, the walk is for them, not me. So I make sure I can give them a proper walk.

They've made me get out whatever the weather, where I would otherwise have stayed indoors. I never considered myself a morning person, but now look forward to early morning walks with them.

I think it's too easy to own a dog. There should be much better regulation of ownership. But cannot see that happening in my lifetime.

And cold dog poo is much, much, worse than warm.

We got our first family dog a year and a half ago and its one of the best things we've done. Having a puppy to take the kids' minds off Covid and lockdown and various other pains has made the eye-watering covid-puppy price worth it. Its only hard work for the first few months... razor sharp puppy teeth chewing furniture, jumping up and scratching the kids, needing to be let out in the garden in the middle of the night, its a bit like having toddlers again, but the payoff is a loveable new member of the family who always brings the random factor to life and acts like a goofball (she just brought me in a Lego T-Rex). OK I don't know where my slippers are any more, but she's taught me not to care where my slippers are and for that I'm grateful.

I think all the anti-dog comments are from people controlled by their cats

Worst thing we every did was get 2 dogs

Basil went at 12 and Sybil went 2 years later at 13

Some of the light has gone out of our lives.
Wife is still bursting into tears months later.
I cannot look at any pictures.

Hate it.

Dog shit is only really offensive if the dog is not getting a decent diet or has a stomach upset.

This, aside from a brief episode of liquid shits after eating something he shouldn't have, cleaning up is pretty easy. I assume his consistent diet helps with that.

To answer the OPs question, no regrets, but there were some brief moments of doubt during the very early days (usually at 2am).

How many of you are referred to as your dog's parent/dad?

Dunno how recent this is (couple of decades?) but my word it's ikky and must be a downside of ownership family membership?

How many of you are referred to as your dog’s parent/dad?

I do (so ner!) usually when I'm winding the wife up, I am the centre of Barney's universe and like to remind the wife occasionally.
He's happy enough to spend time with the lesser humans of the household in my absence, but the second I'm back on the scene he drops them like a steamy turd 😀

but the second I’m back on the scene he drops them like a steamy turd

My dog loves eating steamy turds, so...

Wife's family have a dog, they refer to each other as the dogs mum and dad. Personally I think it's mental, I mean I like my dog and all but he's a dog, not a human. And I'm definitely not his dad!

I regret getting dogs. I was to weak to stand up to the wife and fell for the "I'll do all the walking and training" crap she fed me. One of the dogs was a rescue and is very highly strung to the point she melts down at the slightest rustle outside and is outrageously protective of the house which makes people visiting a real issue. The fact is I just didn't want dogs as I'm a lazy shit and was quite content with not having the commitment or responsibility but as I said I lost the battle of attrition with the wife and am now lumbered.

get divorced and keep the dog

I feel ya donks.

get divorced and keep the dog

Still lumbered with dog though.

Dogs = Good
Humans = Bad 🙃

Favourite time of the day is early morning walk in mild rain around our local pond. It gets me out of bed an hour or so earlier than the rest of the family. It gets me fresh air in my lungs and lets me watch my two have a fun 45mins dashing around all over the place with just ducks and swans for company.

Why in the rain? Because it tends to put others off from doing the same so i get the place to myself. There is nothing else in this world that reduces my stress levels quite as well as my two dogs.

On a similar token, i wont let my wife or daughter walk the dogs alone on a night. So me or my son have to do it. I actively look forward to night walks with my wife and dogs. Its where we actually chat properly without being interrupted every 5 mins. Its amazing the things that come up in convo away from the home.

Other half wants 2 dogs. I don’t want any. I told her I don't want to ties of having to walk them or can't go to certain places because of them. I don't mind as long as she walks them, cleans up after them, and they don't damage anything.

I regret getting dogs. I was too weak to stand up to the wife

+1

Made worse as I'm the one who works from home while she's out at work so I have to put up with the howling, constantly wanting to be let out or back in, negotiating the dog poo minefield on the way to the shed, etc...  It creates a fair bit of tension in the house so on balance - Yes, I regret her getting a dog.

Another middle-class affectation to go with your bathrobe and pizza oven. 🙂

Make sure you conform now, y'hear.

Page 2 has taken an unexpected turn! I opened the thread to post that dogs are awesome and I don't think I'd be without dogs. Gets me out the house twice a day and they are the most loyal, loving animals you could imagine.

Just make sure you have a plan for going away otherwise they can be quite restrictive. My mother is law is always happy to have ours at short notice so we drop them in on the way out. I know several people who don't have this option and barely do anything as they cant leave the dog.

howling, constantly wanting to be let out or back in, negotiating the dog poo minefield on the way to the shed, etc

Are you absolutely sure you dont have a Cat?

We used to like going on a couple of European city breaks a year, plus generally a week away abroad in the summer. My daughter bought a Cockapoo about a year ago, (and of course has too varied a social life to do the daily looking after it) so despite Covid travel restrictions easing, we've been on UK based breaks since.

Actually I was genuinely feeling guilt about the airmiles carbon load, so no I'm not regretting it. He's chill. As I type, (suppose to be working from home) he's watching the birds in garden through the patio doors. It's one of his favourite programs on Dog Telly.

Everywhere I go, I see signs telling me to pick up my dog’s shit but not one telling people to pick up litter. And guess what many public spaces are strewn with. I’ll give you a clue: it’s not dog shit.

Er yes it is. Admittedly around town the major issue is litter, but on popular dog walking hills and woods dog shit in bags is by far the bigger problem. I think I actually preferred it before bags were a thing.

The STW attitude to this does not surprise me. The comments about how they ‘get in the way of life/activities’ is pretty much the same kind of attitude i see when people discuss anything that effects their ability to look after number 1 on here

So far this thread seems to have been fairly evenly split between (a) people who love dogs, couldn't imagine being without one (b) dog owners who have realised there can be some down-sides, might not get another one (c) people who don't want a dog. All valid viewpoints and no single "STW attitude" as far as I can discern.

We used to like going on a couple of European city breaks a year, plus generally a week away abroad in the summer. My daughter bought a Cockapoo about a year ago, (and of course has too varied a social life to do the daily looking after it) so despite Covid travel restrictions easing, we’ve been on UK based breaks since.

Actually I was genuinely feeling guilt about the airmiles carbon load, so no I’m not regretting it.

Can of worms.... have you looked into the carbon footprint of the dog?!

Another middle-class affectation to go with your bathrobe and pizza oven.

Pizza night in the garden also affected 🙂

Are you absolutely sure you dont have a Cat?

Two no less also purchased by my partner / kids after much nagging. However since they don't sh*t in our garden and they can use a cat-flap, plus you can ignore the buggers when going away, it was a compromise I could take.

The dog seems to like one of them though so at least has some company when I'm grumpily tapping away upstairs.

We have a one year old who is a lot of work. He's a bit similar to the Marley and me dog but overall is a real nice dog. Just looking forward to him being a bit older and not needing so much attention. It's draining.

Can of worms…. have you looked into the carbon footprint of the dog?!

It'll be smaller than yours. Will you do the decent thing or are one of us going to have to do it? 😉

Not for a single second, one of the best things we ever did. He's currently sat curled up on top of my feet whilst I work and in a second I'm going to be forced to go out and get some fresh air with a lunchtime walk with him.

For what we put in, I reckon we get a lot more out of having him around... our one regret is not getting a dog sooner.

Can of worms…. have you looked into the carbon footprint of the dog?!

I haven't TBF, my assumption is it's less than 6x adult + luggage medium haul flights per year, but I'll have a quick google.

...per year, while an average-size dog emits <b>770 kg</b>.

...CO<small>2</small> emissions from a Boeing 737-400 of 115 g per passenger km.

So, if an average flight is the distance of Manchester to Prague, 1200km.

1200 x 0.115 = 138kg. x 2, (return) = 276kg

276 x 2 (adults) x 3 (flights/year) = 1656kg.

Who's a good boy!

And what if its on a conveyor belt?