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So we're thinking about upping sticks in the coming years once Daughter has finished GCSE's & Possibly A-Levels.
Looking at the Highlands and would like to buy a property with a holiday let attached, or room to have a couple of large Glamping Pods so that we can have some income and I can semi-retire.
Anyone done this recently (or ever?).
What's the sort of things to look out for?
What's it like with planning in Scotland for holiday lets on an existing property?
Will probably have more Q's as I think about it all.
Thanks in advance.
Shame you said, "coming years"... this place that's up for sale would be ideal...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/155922083
What's the sort of things to look out for?
The main thing is whether or not you can actually handle being in the highlands. How big a cultural move would it be for you? I've had B&B owners try and sell their place to me after they realised it wasn't for them, and they'd moved all the way from Glasgow
So we're thinking about upping sticks in the coming years once Daughter has finished GCSE's & Possibly A-Levels.
have you considered moving before then? 3 years in Scotland (typically Nat 5, Higher, Advanced Higher) qualifies you for free University fees at a Scottish Uni if that is on the cards. I probably wouldn't suggest moving just for that, but it might be part of your overall maths! Of course there is the risk that this is killed off by a future government, but certainly nobody is campaigning loudly on that agenda.
the Highlands is a big area - do you mean the Highland Council area (understanding the dynamics of tourism on the NC500 / Skye etc may be important), or a wider area which many people would commonly call "the Highlands" e.g. most (but not all) of the the Cairngorm national park is not in Highland Council area (and of course has its own planning considerations).Looking at the Highlands and would like to buy a property with a holiday let attached, or room to have a couple of large Glamping Pods so that we can have some income and I can semi-retire.
certainly not impossible but I'd want to check what's been said on other fairly recent short-term let applications in the local area. It could be anything from "there is a shortage of tourist accommodation in this area, and this plays an important role in the local economy" to "there are numerous alternative providers, meanwhile accommodation for local residents is in short demand and visitors place additional stretch on the resources."What's it like with planning in Scotland for holiday lets on an existing property?
I'd want to understand "the season" for any holiday rental - the season is not the same across all of northish Scotland.
I moved up here (for the second time!) in 2009. We moved to Killin on Loch Tay - more remote and further north than we had planned. Since then we have moved back closer to civilisation just outside Stirling.
Good bits: the move has been wonderful for us all. My kids moved from inner city school with police at the gates to a couple of brilliant schools (and i think the Scottish education system has many advantages. The lads have grown up cycling, canoeing, walking, sailing and more. The quality of nature and greenspace has been off the charts good. Scotland has (All things relative) more affordable housing, a great social and neighbourhood culture in general, and life feels 'different' in many ways. I have had a couple of superb jobs, and eventually mrs_oab had good jobs as well. We chose a place where it is easy to travel from - we are not way out east or west, no ferries, we are on main road and main rail etc. We have no plans to move south of the border ever again, and regret none of our move up here. I am also fortunate in having a career in outdoor learning - and moved from teaching in urban outdoor places and the (crowded) Peak to having the Highlands as work and play...
Bad bits: it is a hell of a long way from family at times, the weather at the 'shoulders' of the year is shit in comparison with other places (now changing due to climate change...), rural has real challenges like lack of (good) employment, cost of energy and transport, a small community who can be simultaneously the best and worst you have ever met (and will swither weekly!), travel anywhere is slow....and remember that many places in Scotland can feel like the end of the world on a wet Wednesday in November...
on balance though.
Just.
Do.
It.
Oh and to add - any self catering or tourist work = watching a lovely sunny day escape as you clean a toilet and wait for someone to arrive.
IMO, one of the reasons I am 'glad' I got out of adventure work was that I got my weekends back with my kids doing what I wanted....and there are better paid, Monday-Friday jobs which enable me to do what I want at a weekend and holidays..
I moved to the highlands around 3 years ago and have no regrets. I only moved from Aberdeen though so I was used to the climate and short days in winter.
If you want to do short term holiday let’s/glamping pods in the Highlands there is curently only one control area and that’s Badenoch & Strathspey. That may change though. The control area has stricter rules for holiday lets to allow the authority to limit the number to balance local housing needs and prevent oversupply (streets full of holiday homes). If you are outside the control zone then it’s easier to get set up but you will still need a license and planning permission for pods.
As mentioned earlier in the thread some areas are only busy in season while others are year round. For instance in Skye they usually operate April to October and shut down in winter while Aviemore operates all year round as it’s a ski resort (even though the snow is unpredictable).
Aviemore operates all year round as it’s a ski resort (even though the Funicular is unpredictable
FTFY
Thanks all.
Yes appreciate the Highlands is a big area lol
Looking Aviemore and surrounding areas and also over towards Fort William.
The thinking is that Aviemore and Nevis have the Skiing so opens up the letting season a bit more.
Would also be looking to make use of my coaching & guiding qualifications too, so somewhere with half decent riding.
We're contemplating moving after GSCE's but it's finding a School/College which we are looking at too.
I sort of did this 5 years ago. Sort of as in I already had a strong connection to both the area and the property before I moved up. And I'm still working full time and then some on top of running it. We own and run a 3 bed holiday let next door (in the garden kind of) Between Nairn and Carrbridge. 33 week season, 97% occupancy.
Happy to talk this through off line if you want as to be honest it's more convoluted and nuanced than I think I have it in me to type. What I would say is 1. When you remember the Highland council (as above, only a fraction of 'the Highlands') is the size of Wales, I'd say there is no such thing as a common experience of moving here as it's so massive and you'll get a very different experience depending where you go. And 2. I don't know if you've been involved in hospitality before but it's not necessarily an easy gig and the margins are tighter that you might think if you've only been a punter and balked at paying what you pay and thought the owner was sitting on easy money. And changes to some tax laws, new licencing and to be frank customer expectations means it's harder to make it pay now than it was 10 years ago.
How many Ski days did Nevis manage the last couple of winters?
Don’t search the forum for the cautionary tale of @globalti and his move to rural Scotland.
It did not go well and I often wonder what happened to him.
I've lived in Aviemore for 12 (or is it 13) years, having moved from the outskirts of Edinburgh. Mrs S is orginally from the Isle of Lewis, so our previous experiences were a bit different. Aviemore wasn't really our first choice. We'd planned the West Coast somewhere but came to realise that everything is just so far away - that's services, decent transport, even shopping. We were both after employment too and that was another restriction. Aviemore area just worked out so much better and, FWIW, I don't regret it at all. Friends of ours moved to Lochinver and found that even getting builders, plumbers and so on has been a nightmare.
I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about the area.
Don’t search the forum for the cautionary tale of@globaltiand his move to rural Scotland.
It did not go well and I often wonder what happened to him.
See, I don't get that. Unless you are going in massively under cooked in terms of research or not really understanding what makes you tick as a person I just can't see how it could that wrong....if you like the outdoors and are not particularly into urban bells and whistles. The dark winter days could get you down if you are hard wired maudlin.
How many Ski days did Nevis manage the last couple of winters?
Cannot help regarding holiday lets. As a exScot maybe also consider Argle/bute area such as Oban and the surroundings if you are considering a holiday let as it’s a good base for tourists Island hopping and a decent sized town. It’s very hard to suggest an area and not sure if you want to be in the arse end of nowhere for the peace an scenery or closer to civilisation and all that offers so I would suggest a few more scouting holidays in the various areas to see what feels good to you. Not sure how midge proof glamping pods are?
See, I don't get that. Unless you are going in massively under cooked in terms of research or not really understanding what makes you tick as a person I just can't see how it could that wrong
IIRC his issues were mostly to do with trying to get a house built and disagreements with his wife about the size and design of said house. Those could have happened anywhere, though the relative remoteness wasn't helping.
I moved to Scotland aged 20, now been here 27 years. Will do a longer post later but I’ve never, ever, considered moving back south of the Border.
I bloody love Scotland but you mention Fort William. Whenever I go there I feel like I’m dying inside. It’s the slough of Scotland.
Hello friends, I got a notification and I'm touched that perchypanther remembered me. The move to Scotland has been the best thing we ever did, our quality of life has improved massively and our address books have tripled in size thanks to living in a great community with decent, sociable, dependable neighbours. We cycle, kayak, swim or walk almost daily, we are fitter than we've ever been and are involved with several local groups and activities.
To anybody contemplating a move to Scotland I'd say stay east. Railway towns like Dunblane, Bridge of Allan, Pitlochry, Dunkeld offer excellent quality of life and plenty of sport while being on the railway network for city and airport trips. The weather is drier and there are more roads. In the Highlands, cycling is often limited to trunk roads or forestry, shooting or waterwork tracks. As others suggest, touristy areas can be pretty dead in winter so a small town in, say, Perthshire keeps you going through the dark wet months. I won't be back on the forum but am happy to offer advice by email.
@globalti Absolutely thrilled to see it worked out for you.
Great to hear from you again after all this time.
I’ll retract my previous comment and instead commend the heart warming tale of globalti to anyone considering a move to Scotland
That's a bit unkind to Slough.
'slough', (a) A muddy place, mudhole; a swamp; also, mud, mire; ~ place, a muddy place; withouten ~, without dirt, clean; (b) fig. a degraded state or condition, a state of moral turpitude...
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED40967
I moved to Scotland many moons ago, 20 years in highland, 8 in Edinburgh. Lived mostly in the east but stayed a bit in fort William too. Worked everywhere including the islands.
It's a joy to be here, I've loved every minute of it. I can't really add anything to what's been said but will emphasize the importance of finding the right area for you and the reality of the wet November afternoon. I think you need to embrace it all, enjoy the community around you, and what is on offer socially, especially so during the winter months.
I had a dabble in running holiday accommodation for a year and it is not something I ever want to do again. It's hard work, the margins are tight and it's full on from Easter to October and then basically nothing. I don't know how people do it full time, it certainly wouldn't be my idea of 'retirement'. Changeover costs if you aren't doing your own are significant and council tax rates are really significant now. There are of course good reasons for all this, much discussed here and widely on social media.
I moved back to Scotland 5 years ago after 33 years of living in the south of England. Spent a year in Moray mainly because of lockdown and it was literally the only place we could find whilst we had a house built in Tobermory on the Isle of Mull. It was a massive lifestyle change for the better, but when you live in a small community, everyone knows your business so get used to it. Why anyone thinks they can move to an island or remote location to ‘disappear’ is a joke, particularly in winter as they stand out like a sore thumb! Island life is quite different from the mainland p there’s more of a community spirit and helping each other out. A huge upside for me is the ease and quality of healthcare in Scotland so much better - the doctor’s receptionist apologise if you can’t get an appointment that day. A downside is that we are poorly served by the supermarkets who insist on charging premium prices for a rubbish selection of poor quality food. A monthly trip to a big town is near essential to stock up. A further comment about places like Fort William and Oban is they do have problems with drugs and crime. Don’t worry about anti-Englishness, it’s more a figment of the media than reality - Mrs DB is a Kent/Sussex girl and has never encountered any problems. We have quite a large LGBTQ community here too, plus a fair smattering of folk from across the globe - it’s far more diverse than your average UK town.
Certainly spend some time to get to know different areas - particularly in winter as it can be very different. I’m not a big fan of Aviemore itself - way too busy and developed, but there are lots of places nearby like Carrbridge, Nethy Bridge, Grantown on Spey that aren’t quite as busy. In terms of property prices, any ‘potential development’ will already be baked into the price - folks have been putting caravans and suchlike in fields for decades.
Don’t have much to offer in terms of running self-catering accommodation, but I know lots of people who do or who do ‘changeovers’ at weekends. Hear some real horror stories about the state that some people leave a property - I work in a hardware store, so we’re often the first port of call to help someone clean up someone else’s mess. Some property owners do struggle to find people to do changeovers and have to pay way over the odds like £150-200 in cash. Many businesses here close entirely between November and April, but we are getting more winter visitors, particularly the wildlife spotters.
I've been rattling around Scotland since 2003 and now pretty settled in Inverness. Some thoughts:
- The education system here is really different to in England, so expect some extra hurdles in the transition from GCSEs to our post-16 education. Plenty of folk move here with GCSEs and do fine, but my experience in teaching was that it was rarely a seamless move and it's worth being prepared for that. Too much detail to type here but do message me if you'd like some advice.
- Weather. I happen to like the cooler climes up here but it's not for everyone. If you're contemplating living out west then have a look at how rainfall compares to where you live now and think about how that will make you feel. I worked in Fort William for over a year and the wetness really got to me.
- For all its faults I absolutely love Scotland and just feel at home here.
"@globalti Absolutely thrilled to see it worked out for you.
Great to hear from you again after all this time."
Ditto, advice on perfumes has definitely gone downhill in your absence.
So far as I know Nevis Range didn't open their lifts until February this year
We moved to Scotland 7 years ago.
Before moving the West coast was where I saw myself living in the long term, we moved from a wet part of Northern England so I thought I was used to it. We ended up on the East coast and have got used to the relatively dry sunny climate. I can't imagine us going West now, it is easy enough to visit.
Like others there is no chance we will move back to England, the overpopulation is one of the main reasons we moved and it is very noticeable when you go back to visit.
Housing wise I don't think there are any hidden gems, you are unlikely to be rooting out an amazing bargain, things are cheap for a reason. All the good bits are well known.
We ran a holiday let in touristy area for 5 years. It was accidental, my dad bought the house near us intending to move in but COVID and other life sh!t meant that didn't happen. It is a lot of hard work, and the margins are crap. It only makes sense if you want the house for other reasons or have basically got the unit for free as part of your property - you won't if it is nice, it will be priced in. My dad's place is probably worth around 250-300k and it yielded about 10k a year in profit. As an investment it is poor unless you are banking on house price rises. As a semi-retirement strategy I don't think it stacks up, you will be spending money to buy the income, plus all the work to run it. Just buy a cheaper house and retire is my view.
We're contemplating moving after GSCE's but it's finding a School/College which we are looking at too.
Just remember that National 5's (the near equivalent of GCSE) in Scotland is only a year long, then into Highers and Advanced Highers.
Plus don't underestimate being here 3 years to get Uni funding - that's £40k less debt...
We're contemplating moving after GSCE's but it's finding a School/College which we are looking at too.
Thats not how it works in Scotland.
There will be A school, everyone goes to it and its a complete secondary education.
Can't really help with any of your questions but we moved up to Scotland from the Midlands five years ago and have no regrets what so ever.
I can't see us ever moving back south of the border.
Only been back to the Midlands a couple of times since we've moved and found it utterly depressing and couldn't get back home fast enough.
We do everything we can now to avoid heading south.
There will be A school, everyone goes to it and its a complete secondary education.
Yes, but if you are moving with a blank sheet of paper with no real ties then you can choose where you move to and therefore which catchment you are in. We did rule out one area in our search due to a school with a bad reputation.
Nothing to add other than I'm very pleased to hear it has been a huge success for @globalti.
There will be A school, everyone goes to it and its a complete secondary education.
Yes, but if you are moving with a blank sheet of paper with no real ties then you can choose where you move to and therefore which catchment you are in. We did rule out one area in our search due to a school with a bad reputation.
I was meaning more that there aren't schools to "find" its about checking whether the school attached to the house is suitable. And looking for a "college" is going to get you a prospectus for an nvq in haircutting or a fancy private school.
I think the pods idea could work out well in the right place. We stayed in a pod in Callander on a recent bike trip. It was really good. Holiday let’s can work out well as a nice little income supplement/semi retirement set up. Especially if you do all the work yourself. However there are pitfalls and like anything else dealing with the public most folk are really good but you do get the occasional pain in the neck. A couple of hours doing a changeover two or three times a week is no big deal and you can block off the weeks you want to take time off/get away on holiday. The profit/income would vary massively depending on how much you do yourself. If you sub it all out to third parties there won’t be much left over for you as you will be charged premium rates for everything from putting the bins out to changing a light bulb.
No doubt it is a good, viable business. But you are either buying a ready made business which will cost, or buying a property with potential to turn it into one, which will cost. If you already own a place with the land or a building to convert then fair enough, if not it will be priced in when you buy. If you are genuinely on the wind down to retirement you will be investing money and effort into running this. Money that you could spend on, well, not working and actually retiring.
A couple of hours doing a changeover two or three times a week is no big deal
I can't imagine you have actually done this yourself or you wouldn't say that. To do it to a good standard is a lot of work, bedding, towels, cusion covers etc to be laundered. Cleaning to a standard that you wouldn't bother at home. Guests that leave it in a mess. Guests that break things and don't tell you - I've ripped the shower screen off the wall would be nice to know in advance of a same day changeover. Just as we were leaving I changed the bady in the middle of the carpet and covered it in piss - oopsie! I have the hairiest dog in the universe that has been on every piece of furniture, enjoy 2 hours of hoovering! I have inexplicably taken a dislike to your furniture arrangement and moved things around the house.
A pal of mine has a holiday let She totally underestimated how much time she sends cleaning for handovers.
So glad I no longer do it.
There will be A school, everyone goes to it and its a complete secondary education.
Yes, but if you are moving with a blank sheet of paper with no real ties then you can choose where you move to and therefore which catchment you are in. We did rule out one area in our search due to a school with a bad reputation.
Our kids had the pleasure of attending one of the 'best' state schools in Scotland. Our neighbours moved here from London on the reputation that Dunblane High has.
Can I say it is any better than many other schools? No.
I would argue the schools locally that friends kids attended while on paper and reputation 'worse' than Dunblane, I would say that in many ways they were better. So many in Dunblane are tutored for hours a day (it is called 'hothousing'), so many are forced to uni and careers they detest because parent and school pressure. The other local schools had better support systems, worked harder with additional needs students, stronger behaviour policy, a diversity of field trips and expectation of future careers etc. We still faced issues around bullying, bad behaviour, teacher assaults, lack of staffing for some lessons etc. Total lack of support when one of ours post-pandemic was struggling to attend. Heck, the school are still relatively pissed off that their top, dux medal winning student decided that biking and boarding around the world was what he wanted to do not attend St Andrews with his average grade of 97% - it appeared that he had no next destination and so the school stats went down. I am quite happy that he is a snow plough driver, burger seller and wicked bike rider... 😉
So yeah, there are a few variations in schools. But rurally, there is ONE school, so send them there like everyone else does.
This is a very different culture to England where school choice is a real thing.
I am quite happy that he is a snow plough driver, burger seller and wicked bike rider... 😉
Good on him matt,
We did a changeover yesterday on our wee holiday let in 2 hours robolo. That was 2 of us and it wasn’t that dirty. 4 beds to make 3 bedroom place. Yes I agree it can be a nightmare but that’s not a common occurrence with us, luckily. Over the years we have had very few really tough changeovers and it is a risk but not something that happens often.
Fair enough, we never managed anything like that and seemed to live permanently under a washing mountain at home.
You can definitely overthink the schools thing like MOAB says - the "success/quality" of the school is more often than not a function of the local population / economy than the actual teaching. They become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But do think about where it is - long bus journeys, or even hostel accommodation are unlikely to be popular with children you have uprooted and you may find you are taxi driver to neighbouring towns if you want them to make friends.
No wonder Reform are doing well up here. All these bloody immigrants!!!
Thanks all - greatly appreciated.
A few things for us to consider.
@scotroutes what's the riding like round Aviemore?
Haven't really done any round there when we've been up.
what's the riding like round Aviemore?
Varied. High Burnside has lots of trails that are way past my skills limit, and a few I'll attempt (badly). Absolutely endless XC/gravel stuff in all directions - "big hill" days including Cairngorm and through to Braemar etc. Local bivvy/bikepacking options are off the scale. Road riding is a bit limited and repetitive as there are so few suitable roads. TBH moving here has made me very lazy and I tend not to travel to ride anymore. I saw more bits of the Highlands when I was living in Edinburgh 😂
@scotroutes thanks - will check them out next time we're up.
I've ridden Wolftrax but not managed to try Glenlivet or do any natural stuff.
Ah yes. There's Wolftrax and Glenlivet too if you're into that sort of thing.
Random observations of my friends' experience who have holiday lets (and whose families have been near Fort William since the dark ages, which ended locally in 1973) and another that had B&Bs and also from poking around myself:
- they do week long holiday lets instead of B&B. B&B is a 70 hour week nightmare from what I can see.
- changeover day is an attempt to fit the entire working week into a single day!
- if you are located near something that's not a hill or Loch (eg a nice town, a NTS site or visitor centre, a well regarded pub or restaurant), the season can be surprisingly long
- occupancy rates in the season are high and people will book literally years in advance. One friend's places are 90% booked for the next 3 years. I was stunned.
- it's hard to find trades and labour. One friend had the same local cleaner and handyman for years, and did everything themselves. Then they all three got older. There aren't many young people (because it's the middle of nowhere). So they converted a building that was on the property for accommodation for a live-in handyman and cleaner who basically runs the whole shebang 2 days a week, and then I think he is very much in demand locally as a tradie the rest of the week. He's a great guy from EU Central Europe that's been there since before Brexit, but it took a while to find someone suitable
- there's a biiiiiiiug difference between "this is how I make my money" and "this is some extra cream on top of my pension/main job income from elsewhere"
For all of my rightmove-surfing, I am not sure I could hack it really in the middle of nowhere running accommodation. I think Stanley Kubrick made a fly on the wall documentary about what happened to a guy like me who did similar...
Scotlands air b&b is a hit or miss, a week in Mull after one night moved 4 miles as the acc was bad but my partner's daughter had arranged it. Managed to get a nearby place that looked like it was stuck in the 1980's but it was an upgrade and an additional £350 for 3 nights. Can't say I'd rush back to Mull
Stayed one night at the Oyster Inn Connel bridge , great room this time and plenty of choice for the breakfast but a 3/4 cooked breakfast let it down so can only blame the "chef" Lots of plates going back hardly touched should tell them to up their game especially the 6 disgruntled Italians sitting nearby
Thanks again.
I'd be still 'working' all be it hopefully on a part time basis.
If we do any holiday lets it would ideally be the self contained Glamping Pod idea - not interested in B&B or a whole extra property.
Understand about having local amenities if offering a self catering type affair - good pub is a good shout!
At the moment this is an idea and want to delve into it as much as possible with pros, cons etc so that we can make an informed decision - can't do this half baked or wing it - once it's done it'll be hard to reverse it.
Again thanks for all the feedback - greatly appreciated.
In all honesty Cairngorms is looking lit the better option - from Kingussie up to Grantown as you're not too far from Inverness.
Will keep digging and probably ask way more questions.
Will keep digging and probably ask way more questions.
Obviously this is not part of the market I 'work' in, or in fact have been a consumer of so you need to take what I have to say with a dollop of scepticism....
Pods....I don't think the market is saturated but it's certainly matured over the last decade. Some of the early ones are now looking a bit tired and customer expectations are rising in terms of amenities. Also, so many farms or larger properties have diversified into it that you'll be up against plenty of alternatives - especially if you go to a honeypot location like the Cairngorms. You could be faced with buying an existing business with pods that'll need replacing soon or a field that's not in an ideal location.
Planning permission - don't think its a shoe in you'll get it. You'll have two hurdles - planning permission and a short term let licence. You'd think the two might be connected....but that would be joined up thinking! From what I've heard it's easier to get pod permission as a diversification of an existing business like a farm than it is as a newbie who has just bought a bit of land, especially in an area already well provisioned for accommodation. And especially especially in a national park as you would be in the Gorms. Also, the licence - was easy enough as an existing business (although it's a fair dollop of cash) but again rumours that the limits of licences that'll be granted might be close to the limit now in certain areas of the Highlands so it'll be a case of on a waiting list and one in, one out.
There is also potentially tourist tax about to come in - 10% levy on all accommodation that you'll be administering. Unclear at the moment if that will be baked into the fee you charge and essentially a 10% additional tax on the owner, or an additional fee that you'll be responsible for collecting and passing on.
My issue with pods as a business is that unless you are physically at a activity venue (like on a lochside or a beach) most of your trade will be one or two night stays of tourists on road trips. Offer them for a minimum of 7 nights with a fixed changeover day and you'll mostly be empty. It doesn't matter if guests are in for one night or 7 they generate the same amount of cleaning and laundry. The advantage of a whole property (if it's nice) is that you can expect near 100% occupancy on week long bookings only. Do you really want every day to be a changeover? Because you'll have guests arriving and leaving 7 days a week. And if you are doing the pod model with common bathroom facilities you be expected to clean them every day. If you are doing pods with their own bathrooms you in a totally different financial outlay model. People do pay silly money for pods stays though - I'm always amazed at some of the nightly rates for what, in the lower specced pods, is in effect a wooden shed with minimal insulation, no cooking or bathroom facilities.
Having said all that, IF you could get the permissions and IF you were in a desirable location and IF you were prepared to commit to 7 days a week in season of some work then a piece of land with some pods and a Caravan Club or Camping (CS) and Caravan Club (CL) certified site with mown in spots for 5 touring vans or campers could make sense. CL/CSs are much less work and less outlay - some are barely more than a field with no amenities like a toilet/shower and no power hookup, yet still charge £20 odd a night. Add both and the price is nearer £35/40pn. 5 spots in a good location that can expect a high occupancy is £500pw pure profit. I get nothing like that with a £275K property and all the cleaning, washing and ironing involved.
he is a snow plough driver, burger seller and wicked bike rider.
{Glances at screens covered in spreadsheets}
Bastard.
Convert makes a good observation that there is demand for campervan places, at least in some areas. Probably even more seasonal though? The trick there might be to find a community that has issues with camper parking and be bringing a solution rather than seeming to attract vans to an area with inadequate roads. I think pods are pretty seasonal too - whilst I'm sure some people go there in winter, a cottage with a cosy fireplace, indoor toilet etc is much more appealing.
If everyone has put you off the holiday rental game - you could of course look to buy a property that could have an adjoining normal rental. No cleaning, laundry, etc to worry about, and perhaps not hard to find tenants in high-demand areas. The net proceeds may be not that different if you were paying someone else to do the graft. No idea what happens with stamp duty (actually LBTT in Scotland) if you buy one property that can be divided like this - don't take any advice from a Ms Raynor, but I believe there's a Mr Farage who seems to know how to work the system!
Sorry if I was overly negative about running a holiday let, obviously it can work out. It really is going to be dependent on the unit(s) though. Ours was a 3 story house with 1.5 bathrooms, it was a pain to clean due to size and configuration. And we weren't on site, it wasn't far away but still needed to load stuff up in the car to take round - all adds to the time. And as it was a busy area there was quite a bit of competition, we tried charging more for it but we didn't get the occupancy. Quite frustrating when people are happy to hire posh tents nearby for 2 or even 3 times as much as a whole house. At one point we had a 3rd bedroom and it made no difference to the amount we could charge - it was just extra washing and cleaning. We locked it off - at least one person tried to break into the room (during COVID - some of the guest were awful at that time). We got rid of that room entirely in the end. And I did really resent the time spent as I work full time, it used to clobber my weekends. If I was working less it wouldn't be as bad.
I wouldn't completely rule out doing it again but I would be far more selective over the rental unit. A little 2 person flat or bothy type thing on one level, would be quick to turn over and not bring in much less (if any) income compared to the house we rented out.
However the point still stands that to get somewhere like that is going to require an investment that I'm just not convinced is worth it.
he is a snow plough driver, burger seller and wicked bike rider.
{Glances at screens covered in spreadsheets}
Bastard.
Did I also mention he is handsome, fit as a fiddle, has taken up salsa dancing, learned to snow board....even I am jealous of his lifestyle at present!
during COVID - some of the guest were awful at that time
Same - it was the first season we ran ours (my mother had run it previously) and there were some colossal arseholes holidaying in the UK that year. People used to all inclusive abroad who just didn't know how to behave. Thankfully they are back trashing Magaluf instead.
Quite frustrating when people are happy to hire posh tents nearby for 2 or even 3 times as much as a whole house.
Odd isn't it. Friends up the road with a very modest property which is effectively one and a half bedrooms with no TV and a single really uncomfortable sofa for in theory 4 adults gets dangerously close to what ours with its 3 massive bedrooms, all en suite, gets. There is defiantly a goldilocks sized rental that maximised income whilst minimising outlay and changeover time/cost.
The smartest money might be to buy a mobile home in a holiday park. The money people are prepared to pay for a week in a plastic box in the middle of a grid of other plastic boxes in comparison to the costs to own, maintain and changeover is a real outlier. Seemingly adding more chintz and more gawdy decoration that every bricks and mortar house in the UK has been trying to remove, the better. It might be your idea of hell for a holiday but financially owning one makes sense. Nowt as queer as folks.
Same - it was the first season we ran ours (my mother had run it previously) and there were some colossal arseholes holidaying in the UK that year. People used to all inclusive abroad who just didn't know how to behave. Thankfully they are back trashing Magaluf instead.
I could have written that word for word.
Just a bit of an aside regarding holiday units...
Mrs S and I rented a wee cabin on the island of Grimsay for a week this summer. It was bigger than a pod, with better facilities, still only had a double bed and was in a great location. Being able to cook for ourselves reduced the overall cost of the holiday so the additional expense of the cabin over a camping pod was balancing out more than you'd maybe expect.
It immediately had me looking for similar sized units elsewhere.
Also - in Badenoch and Strathspey, all kids in Aviemore and south go to Kingussie High School, further north they go to Grantown. I'd say the latter has a slight better reputation.
It might be your idea of hell for a holiday but financially owning one makes sense.
Until you come to sell it...
Or rent it for that matter, this has been in the news a lot recently where the holiday park has its own rental units and contractually reserves the right to manage all guests to the park. They divert rental bookings to their own units and private owners hardly get a look in.
Just bear in mind the area you are now mentioning is the only control area in the highlands, ward 20 Badenoch and Strathspey. As I mentioned earlier this is seen as the problem area by Highland council so by making it a control area they can limit the amount of holiday lets. Not an issue for an existing business but a new one may be refused if they think there is an oversupply. I have no idea what the magic number of holiday lets they have dreamt up is but if it’s a 1000 and they already have a thousand you may have a long wait for planning permission and they won’t give you a license without it. Worth doing some research before committing financially.
The control zone is there to limit the number of houses and flats being taken out of full-time occupation. It's not designed to restrict the supply of pod/cabin type accommodation.
Yes it was meant to control the number of flats and homes being taken out of full time occupation but it also looks at the character of the area and impact on neighbouring properties as with other planning applications. It is basically an extra control the council can use to manage the numbers. They can just decide we don’t need any more of these and deny permission.
It's worth looking on air BnB for the areas you are looking at to see what sort of accomodation is available and what they are charging. Just as a sniff test to get a feel.
he is handsome, fit as a fiddle, has taken up salsa dancing, learned to snow board
I never did like him
Worth noting that some areas property isn't on Rightmove by default. Deeside seems to be domintaed by ASPC. Anybody know other areas where rightmove isn't the go to option?
I moved to Scotland a year ago. So far it's been great.
Check rain forecasts and especially midge forecasts before you move anywhere. Some places we contemplated had one or the other on every single day.
It might be your idea of hell for a holiday but financially owning one makes sense.Until you come to sell it...
Correct. We were at Nairn in a cottage. The East Beach caravan site was advertising caravans from £40k. Which need to be sold for a pittance in 12 or 25 years or taken away.
It's worth looking on air BnB for the areas you are looking at to see what sort of accomodation is available and what they are charging. Just as a sniff test to get a feel.
There is a slight issue with this as well established properties that aren't charging top dollar are booked up in advance (sometimes years) and don't rely on mainstream booking sites with the associated high fees.
Often the ones left advertising are the most expensive and may not be achieving very good occupancy.
The East Beach caravan site was advertising caravans from £40k. Which need to be sold for a pittance in 12 or 25 years or taken away.
This is a (first world) problem when I've looked into this in the past. The idea of a place to regularly spend time at is great, but these caravan sites sometimes cost £6-8k a year just in fees nevermind the depreciation and living in close proximity to others. But if you look at freehold properties and put that money towards a deposit/maintenance then you're taking away housing from locals which doesn't sit well at all. We used to have But'n'Ben's in Scotland and Scandinavian countries have similar. I know we have hutting communities, but it's not the same. Anyway, sorry for the thread diversion.
I came back with the thought - why go for the holiday rentals? There is desperate need for long-term residential rentals in many of these areas. While I know (from personal experience) that margins are less, it is considerably less work. It also provides homes locally, and rents are rising. Invest the money in a couple of properties - one for you and one (or more) for rental market?
I say all this as someone who was glad to get out of being a landlord. But every circumstance is different.
I don’t think the economics work buying a property to rent out unless you want to put away a nest egg long term. Say a 300,000 investment in a house which rents out at 1000 a month. You could get £1000 interest a month putting that capital in a high interest notice account. Obviously the house purchase should increase in value over the long term but in the shorter term the return is poor. I suppose it also depends on your age.
I have worked in three Stirling schools including Dunblane High School - all excellent. Elsewhere I have seen quite a variation.
It might be your idea of hell for a holiday but financially owning one makes sense.Until you come to sell it...
Correct. We were at Nairn in a cottage. The East Beach caravan site was advertising caravans from £40k. Which need to be sold for a pittance in 12 or 25 years or taken away.
Yep notorious around here in Dumfries & Galloway that static caravans difficult to sell due to contractual obligation to sell through the exploitative site owner. Usually sold after huge delays for a fraction of the cost.
Like most of the Highlands and Islands, there’s an acute shortage of long-term rental accommodation here - long term rentals are typically £800-1000/month whereas you can easily charge that per week from April to October. Talking to someone today who has a few long term rentals - one property he made zero profit with the last tenant because of all the refurbishment work needed when they left. I can see the appeal of a couple of pods in a field, but unless you’re buying an existing business, the likelihood of simply finding something suitable could be tricky unless it’s somewhere quite remote. I also know a few folks who rent out their main property as a holiday let in the summer and live in a caravan nearby.
Check rain forecasts and especially midge forecasts before you move anywhere. Some places we contemplated had one or the other on every single day.
Bloody amateurs the really good places have both of them all the time.
I moved to Scotland a year ago. So far it's been great.
Check rain forecasts and especially midge forecasts before you move anywhere. Some places we contemplated had one or the other on every single day.
This site is pretty good to compare where you are currently, with where you might want to be.
https://weatherspark.com/compare
Like most of the Highlands and Islands, there’s an acute shortage of long-term rental accommodation here - long term rentals are typically £800-1000/month whereas you can easily charge that per week from April to October.
So long term rental is £10-12K per annum with minimum work, and few outgoings (perhaps £1k pa for compliance stuff and insurance?) v's short term rental where 100% occupancy April-October would be unusual, so possibly double the annual income but with much more work and cost (airbnb platform fees - varies how you set it up but 15% off what the holidaymaker pays is not unusual; changeover costs suggested at £100 per time).
Talking to someone today who has a few long term rentals - one property he made zero profit with the last tenant because of all the refurbishment work needed when they left.
There are obviously risks, but carefully selecting your tenants, living close by to keep an eye on things and ensuring basic maintenance gets done should mitigate those risks somewhat. Of course short term rentals aren't immune to those risks either.
I don’t think the economics work buying a property to rent out unless you want to put away a nest egg long term. Say a 300,000 investment in a house which rents out at 1000 a month.
Yes I think if you are paying £300K for an extra property its probably not a great deal BUT if the property you are planning to buy has (or can be affordably converted to have) an annex which was only of the possibilities the OP asked about it MIGHT be viable.
Indeed my thought on long-term rentals was based on a flat in Aberfeldy worth £115k with £650 a month income. I could have upped this income another £200 a month or so as it has had HMO license, but we decided to not do that. FWIW, I would not have grown rich from it*. However, every time the tenancy came up there was a queue of people looking and absolutely no-one quibbled the rent.
Eldest_oab left his job at Glenmore Lodge as he could not find suitable accommodation in 6 months of looking. Most rooms within shared houses went within the day and by word of mouth - and were all £300+bills or more a month in a house for 3.
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*we had one arsehole of a tenant that ended up in court and sheriff helping evict them, that knocked out 8 months of income and £4k of costs....avoid this and you are good.