[Closed] Anyone listen to the Electric Car debate on Radio 5 this morning?

I didn't hear it, but i've had an electric car for the past couple of years and will never return to a petrol / dielsel car.

I know the argument is that you're kicking the can down the line, but with the advent of vastly improved batteries for home solar systems (we have the Powerwall) we run the car on nothing other than the initial outlay. That said, we no longer receive an electricity bill because we run purely off the batteries.

I think it's incredible that this is now a thing to be honest.

I'm tempted by a s/h leaf.

Trouble is my OH is completely against the idea and it could only ever work if at least one of us had a long range vehicle. So she insists on a fiesta sized petrol car because once every few months she drives to Manchester for the day (her normal commute is well within leaf range).

A fiesta sized car is useless as a car for me as I want to tow. So I'd have to buy a leaf and a cheap van, which would then mean I would have 3x cars in my name (classic mg in the shed) which is ludicrous.

Didn't hear it but interesting given the slating it was getting on speakev.

Have a PHEV now (Golf GTE) but when it goes back in 11 months we'll be getting a pure battery EV that will do most of our miles alongside a family MPV for when we need to take lots of people or things at the same time. Just so pleasant to drive, preheating in winter is a godsend too.

"Trouble is my OH is completely against the idea"

Just tell her she will never have to defrost her car again as it has preheat on a timer or from an app and it has heated seats and a heated steering wheel which also come on when preheating. That normally does it for the ladeez....

Just tell her she will never have to defrost her car again as it has preheat on a timer or from an app and it has heated seats and a heated steering wheel which also come on when preheating. That normally does it for the ladeez….

Trouble is, as a gentleman I tend to be the one who gets up and defrosts get car for her. So unless I went on strike (and suffered the withdrawal of pudding as a result) that argument wouldn't work!

It seemed to be that in only a couple of years you will be able to buy a s/h car that will get you to Manchester on one charge or with one stop for recharge in the time it takes coffee/cake/pee.

It seemed to be that in only a couple of years you will be able to buy a s/h car that will get you to Manchester on one charge or with one stop for recharge in the time it takes coffee/cake/pee.

From where though?

My wife's next car will be electric if we can afford it. The big family car too once the prices are down and the charging pints are in, but can you imagine how many they would need to cater for all of the M5 holiday traffic around Bristol until they can get the range up to 600 miles?

As a recent convert having bought a Soul EV last year, they absolutely are the future. As the charging network infrastructure catches up, electricity continues to get cleaner, and more cars come on the market with 250+ mile ranges and also at lower price points, a lot of the reasons to not buy one will disappear. A lot of the problem currently is lack of battery manufacturing capacity, and brands taking a while to ramp up BEV production and at the same time reduce reliance on ICE cars. To a big extent the demand is ready to switch ahead of the supply.

Right now they absolutely make sense for anyone making a regular journey within the available range, or as one of the cars in a two car family with a suitable house for a home charger. In a few years even people living in flats will manage fine, they'll just stop at a public charger for 15 minutes when they would have filled with fuel before.

It is easy to get lost in looking at range though. The lack of supply/choice at the moment (especially second hand) means they are still a big initial investment, but as supply grows the lack of running costs will really start to make them economic sense for many.
The other key thing is just the feel-good factor of wafting along in near silence whilst not burning fossil fuels and not having to visit (and spend £60 a time) in fuel stations, and they are a much more calming experience to drive.

If things were the other way round, and we had been driving around in electric cars for years and someone came along with a petrol/diesel engine alternative, we would look at the complexity/emissions/noise and the supply chain needed to refine/supply the fuel and think it was a massive step backwards.

From where though?

Someone said 300miles or just under is standard range in new 2019 cars (Hyundai and Kia where mentioned). So Southampton would require a recharge whilst you where in Manchester maybe, Birmingham could be done in one (bearing in mind most people would have home chargers so starting on a full charge). The range is only going to get greater from 2020 onwards.

EV’s to be roughly the same price as Petrol/diesel and there’s no reason not to.

Unless of course you don’t want to buy one, obvz. Or your journeys and lifestyle limit charging time/availability and such, obvz..

🤷‍♂️

What is ownership like if you don't have off-street parking or charging point at work?

If things were the other way round, and we had been driving around in electric cars for years and someone came along with a petrol/diesel engine alternative, we would look at the complexity/emissions/noise and the supply chain needed to refine/supply the fuel and think it was a massive step backwards.

Absolutely. We'd take one look at the complexity and think "far too much to go wrong".

can you imagine how many they would need to cater for all of the M5 holiday traffic around Bristol until they can get the range up to 600 miles?

Just have more chargers in the big hubs - Tesla already have a 40-bay supercharger site, and a 50-bay one in progress. It's not an insurmountable problem to have a lot of power capacity in places where lots of people will want to change. However as the car ranges get bigger, it gives people a lot more flexibility on when and where to charge.

I'm hoping it creates a market for more nice places to stop just off the motorway where you can have a nice break mid-journey - a decent lunch or let the kids play outside on a long journey while your car tops up, rather than the (mostly rubbish) motorway services.

Would love one in principle. There's usually a large STW cohort who claim to drive from Aberdeen to Rome every other week, but for most people I'd reckon they're pretty practical. I reckon I do a journey of over 150 miles maybe once every 2 years. So totally doable for us.

However...

What is ownership like if you don’t have off-street parking or charging point at work?

this is the killer for me. I can't always park outside my house or even on the same street. And MrsDoris (who actually uses the car) doesn't have any charging points at work. the same would be true for most people in our area. So charging infrastructure would have to be significantly improved before it's realistic for us.

Whilst thinking about it all, the charging infrastructure question seemed a complete none issue to me, in the long run at least. 1) pretty much everyone will have access to home charging, so you start the day on a full tank everyday. 2) because you are not dealing with large amounts of highly volatile liquid, charging stations will cost peanuts and can be installed pretty much everywhere with little regulation other than an electrical cert. Just need the demand to happen. it's obvious not there yet for many, but it seems to me that in a very short time all the main arguments against will be dealt with.

If you don't have a home charger or charging at work, then ownership will depend on how much you drive and what your local charging network is like.

If you drive a fair amount, and don't have chargers in places you go to regularly, then in all honesty it could probably be a pain in the butt for you currently.

If you drive fewer miles, and your local shops/supermarket/pub/gym has a charger then you may be able to build in a weekly top-up to your normal routine and make it perfectly workable. Tesco have recently announced a big roll-out of chargers in their car parks in conjunction with VW which will be free to use while shopping, BP recently bought Chargemaster and are rolling out more chargers at fuel stations.
It will come, but a lot of places aren't great currently.

For a lot of people they’re not there yet and people will need to modify their lifestyles to suit. I’d have one and trying to get my wife to get one as how she uses a car an EV would be perfectly adequate. For me maybe 80% of my journeys an RV would be fine so I could fill that final 20% by doing something differently or just renting an oil burner when needed.

Problems as I see them currently are still charge time and battery performance deterioration over time and lack of charging points, especially fast chargers.

I’m jot a fan of government tax incentives, the change has to be driven by the consumer and as soon as the consumer starts buying them the prices will drop like a stone and they’ll be more affordable than any government tax incentive can make them. Providing tax incentives just reduces the money the government has to fix the bloody roads and improve the infrastructure.

I really want one.

I can get sent all over the UK for work, so I might like to keep a long range car, but if I make the effort and travel by train I should be able to keep that to an absolute minimum.

Would like one as an everyday car but unless I can fit 4 people, two dogs, plus a load of luggage while pulling a 2.5 ton boat 110 miles in one go I'll still need my diesel SUV as well.

They're coming, that much is inevitable. Right now they are feasible for some people. Within a few years the infrastructure will develop. And more people will find the feasible and buy them.

Probably not for you if you enjoy adventure trekking across the wilds of wherever, in your landy, with kayaks and tents. But so what. Most everyone else will end up in electrics.

I still see hybrids dominating for a good while, first, during the period between now, when we have an infrastructure that works for a few people who move between London and Birmingham and never leave the motorway network, to then, when there are actually charge points everywhere.

I imagine I'll own a hybrid or EV within ten years time when they start forming the majority of the second hand market.

Norway are already almost there at 42% of new car purchases.

I wonder what it is here in Denmark, certainly a huge amount of electric cars here, and ebikes, etrikes, electric fast food delivery vehicles and all sorts of weird and wonderful evs you don't get in the UK. There's even electric wheelchair mobility type things that crack along at a right good rate. Uk just seems twenty years behind in comparison.

while pulling a 2.5 ton boat 110 miles in one go I’ll still need my diesel SUV as well.

Hmm.. I might have an idea that solves this, and it involves water... 😉

Im getting a hybrid (PHEV) in month or so. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to my current Volvo diesel. The Volvo will happily return 50+mpg with an approaching 800 mile range. The PHEV should be great backwards and forwards to work (hopefully just running full electric) but long journeys will be an trade off between it becoming simply a heavy petrol engined car...

An often overlooked point (or it was by me...) is that you need to have a private drive to install a dedicated charger. Not a problem in my case although the long cable run might be yet but definitely a barrier if you live in town.

I'd be interested in how many households would have the ability to charge a car at home, I bet it's not as high as some might think. I for one wouldn't be able to install a charging point at home and come to think of it , most people in my family would struggle.

Did they get the stw 600 mile a day lot on to put them right?

Once there's enough electric vehicles on the road you'll get charged for using a charging point, there will be a huge amount missing from Treasury funds otherwise. If the charging points remain free then it'll be some sort of GPS based road pricing based on mileage, or VED will go through the roof EV's, anything to keep the cash flowing in.

I’d be interested in how many households would have the ability to charge a car at home, I bet it’s not as high as some might think.

Enough to make a huge dent in vehicle emissions. Take a bike ride around the suburbs, see how many houses with driveways there are.

Did they get the stw 600 mile a day lot on to put them right?

I think they spoke to Australian who lives too far from a fuel station which means no one can have an electric car.

Just tell her she will never have to defrost her car again as it has preheat on a timer or from an app

This is really the day to day clincher... at this time of year the wife and I fight over who gets to scrape away in the cold for ten minutes and who gets to just step into a warm, defrosted car and be away...

Its not really a solution - all it does is move the pollution from the tailpipe to the power generators - and the batteries themselves are very polluting to create.

In cities like Edinburgh most people would not be able to have a home charging system easily

I think there could be a big market for small one or two person EVs which could be used as second vehicles by commuters who travel solo. A smaller footprint would make parking a lot easier.

I guess the problem would be making them safe when sharing the roads with HGVs, SUVs etc.

There are loads of people with drives who insist on parking on road so they won't be interested. However it's a matter of time, maybe 20 years before owning a petrol / diesel will be prohibitively expensive and difficult to run as fuel becomes more difficult to get hold of as filling stations shut it convert to charging stations.

Personally I'm very seriously considering a full EV in the autumn when my current car lease expires. 15 miles each way to work, much of bit urban stop start traffic, electric is ideal on a range of levels, that sort of driving kills combustion engines and is massively polluting in populated areas.

I'd also ban hybrids immediately, in many ways they are more polluting than combustion only.

I think there could be a big market for small one or two person EVs which could be used as second vehicles by commuters who travel solo. A smaller footprint would make parking a lot easier.

The solution for solo commuters is mostly public transport.
The solution to safety is safer roads and safer cars all round. Size does not equal protection.

Or put simply the biggest change needed is in thinking and perception.

Uk just seems twenty years behind in comparison.

In in more ways than just EV.

Its not really a solution – all it does is move the pollution from the tailpipe to the power generators

It's part of the solution because centrally generated power can mitigate the pollution footprint far more easily. Once carbon scrubbers are invented it'll be much easier to install one industrial scale plant at a power station than millions of tiny ones in everyone's car.

Plus giant wind turbines go easily on top of big hills whereas they aren't that practical on everyone's roof.

I’d also ban hybrids immediately, in many ways they are more polluting than combustion only.

How so?

Had a Zoé for coming up to two years. It's a delighfull wizzy thing. Madame loves it.

Used locally in SW France with charges at home or with the Mobiv charge points then range isn't an issue.

Used internationally it becomes more stressful. Will the charge point work with our card? (it might not even if it's supposed to), will it really be a 22kW charger or will it turn out to be stangled to 7 or even 3? Will a dick have left his fully charged hybrid Merc on the charge point for the day to get free parking? (a real problem in Germany). Will my phone work? (because in Spain you need a phone app to initiate the charge).

Locally we have reliable 22kW chargers in places with loads of free parking (no risk of squatting) at less than 50km intervals pertty much everywhere. Untill that is the case everywhere and with a no contact credit card payment make sure you can charge for the journeys you want to do before you buy.

Because you've got all the energy requirements to manufacture 2 different drive trains, you're carrying additional weight of 2 engines, and many people don't charge them up from charging points. Even the government has twigged to this and is reducing tax breaks and subsidies. The non plug in hybrids are even worse, the marginal recovery of energy from breaking is not going to outweigh the environmental costs of manufacture.

Pure EV is the way to go. Even coal fired electrical generation is cleaner, more efficient and better regulated than combustion engines.

As soon as EVs get to the same price as ICE we will get one as Mrs ODs car. In the car we do low mileage, almost exclusively short (under 10 mile) trips - but given low annual mileage the savings on fuel don't cover the extra upfront cost as things stand.

We use my van for all holidays etc and have a drive so can easily charge.

Its not really a solution – all it does is move the pollution from the tailpipe to the power generators – and the batteries themselves are very polluting to create.

It's a good start though. Currently 30% of UK electricity is generated from renewable sources, compared to 0% for petrol. And the 30% will continue to go up over the next few years

Are the batteries any "better" these days - my understanding was that we have to strip-mine an area the size of Wales (official S.I. unit) for every Tesla built...and then do it again in 5 years to replace them

??

I’m very seriously considering a full EV in the autumn when my current car lease expires. 15 miles each way to work, much of bit urban stop start traffic

Have you considered cycling? It's very popular these days, there are even web forums devoted to it.

I don't get this EV's are really expensive thing?

Yes Tesla are, but secondhand Leaf's and Souls are just ICE money assuming its a short regular commute type car btw and not the aforementioned Aberdeen to Rome etc

example: My Leaf Tekna 24 (top of the range, leather seats, camera's, heated gearstick yada yada) on a 14 plate.

Bought from a maindealer at 18 months old with 5k on the clock and 3.5 years warranty remaining.

3k down and just over 200 a month over 3 years - then its mine.

I used to spend at least 100 a month in fuel and car tax in my old diesel mondeo so that really makes it an additional 100 a month.....plus there were 2 services thrown in and breakdown cover.

Expensive? I reckon its expensive not to have an EV!

Edit: just realised I forgot to include the cost of charging it! Still I use a low rate green tariff (hello TJ) at 4.99p a unit overnight plus free work charging so it works out around £10-15 per month max for me. Plus I also forgot that there was govt grant to install my home charger and Nissan picked up the remainder all in with the price.

A petrol car will get through about 8 tonnes of fuel in it's life which is simply burnt and produces toxic local pollution + a mass of CO2. The oil industry is Filthy.

An EV will have a few hundred kgs of lithium batteries which are now being recyled at around 80% with the residue incorporated into building blocks. The mining is messy but significantly less polluting than than the oil industry. In fact you can argue that the main problem with EVs is the plastic in them which is unlikely to be recycled at the same levels as the batteries and is more polluting both in manufature and at end of life.

Maybe off street parking with charging station will become the norm. Cities will modify to suit. Even if full autonomy cars don't become a thing immediately surely a short slow journey from storage to your house is possible.

It still doesn't remove them from city centres or reduce congestion or road deaths or contribute to a nations fitness and wellbeing.

Yes electricity is only getting cleaner and is fundamentally a more efficient way of turning energy into movement.

Comparing it to exhaust emissions is also only half the story. You also have to look at the huge impact of extracting, refining and transporting oil for fuel. Aledgedly refining a gallon of fuel takes more electricity than an electric car would take to drive the same distance as that gallon of fuel would power an ICE car. So before you even start burning the stuff the electric car is ahead.

Aledgedly

The Frauhoffer institute have done studies on this kind of stuff. The embedded energy in petrol is high but not as high as the energy in the petrol. Even with Germany's brown coal filthy electricty mix EVs get ahead of ICE cars at some point in their life in terms of total CO2. anyone who claims EVs are more polluting over their lifetime has been taken in by fake news.

Molgrips - plus conversion losses plus transmission losses - ie you lose a fair chunk of the energy thusreducing the efficiency

the real answer is to move people around less and when you do move them ruduce the energy used to move them. Buses, trains and much lighter vehicles. One of the potential advantages of EVs is the possibility of making them much lighter thus needing less energy to move them and to build them

Ive come to the conclusion that electric cars are just a diversion. The future of personal mobility needs to be public not private. Reducing cars on the road is the answer, and investing massively in public transport, buses, trams, trolley buses and trains...

the real answer is to move people around less and when you do move them ruduce the energy used to move them.

And then you get people like this...

while pulling a 2.5 ton boat 110 miles in one go I’ll still need my diesel SUV as well.

You can't get high and mighty about saving the planet and driving an EV, then saying but I've got a gas guzzler that does 15mpg just because.

One of the potential advantages of EVs is the possibility of making them much lighter thus needing less energy to move them and to build them

A Leaf is 3433 lbs apparently. A VW Golf is 2963lbs. Still got a long way to go...

Only BMW have really done an EV properly. Thin wheels, a bespoke car, rather than plonkng a battery into a standard car.

"You can’t get high and mighty about saving the planet and driving an EV, then saying but I’ve got a gas guzzler that does 15mpg just because."

Why not? I do 12,000 commuting miles a year through built up areas - in an EV. I also drive 2000 miles a year with a trailer in a diesel delivering canoes and kayaks. Should I feel bad because some journeys I can do without tailpipe emissions and without pumping CO2 into the atmosphere? Of course not!

I've got a Passat GTE and with the saving in BIK and the higher petrol mileage rate work pay it's working out OK even with doing over 20k a year at work. Most work days are between around 60 to 100 miles, getting 55mpg overall on the on board computer, charging costs on top but don't seem to have made that much difference to the bill. As a company car I reckon it's about £150 a month cheaper than a 2l diesel, for my circumstances anyway. I shouldn't say this really but once the battery has run out I do miss the torque of a good diesel....grade A first world problems!

Was planning on replacing the wife's aging 2005 Nissan Almera Tino 1.8 petrol which isn't great on fuel with Kia Soul Ev lease that they were doing for about £200 a month. Those seem to have stopped though so a bit gutted, think there is a new one due and all the other EVs are more like 300 a month which is too rich. I think that is the story with leases generally though according to another thread on here. Shame as she has an 18 mile commute each way and we have a home charger so ideal candidates for an EV

Has anyone else got deja Vue?

Breatheasy - The twizzy must be lighter but I am thinking a complete paradigm shift - sub 500kg car and preferably less. think 1930s cyclecar the twizzy is closer to that concept but I want 4 seats and luggage capacity
Most journeys are urban. Urban EVs need less range EV advantages multiply if you go down this road. Less weight means less embedded energy and less energy to drive it

Has anyone else got distorted views?

FIFM

the real answer is to move people around less

There are many answers, because there are many questions.

There are currently around 150,000 electric cars Vs 30 million fuel/diesel cars. If we want a reversal in these numbers over the coming decades we have to do something drastic with our energy generation, however I tend not to see an appetite from anyone to tackle this.

As I understand it, government policy is to cease any coal generation by 2025, and nuclear generation is declining with 50% of this sectors generation capacity to cease also by 2025. Recent new nuclear schemes have been put on ice. Gas generation is still our largest generation sector however we all know people attitudes to furthering shale gas extraction on the mainland. Hydro power generation is far and away the most efficient generation method, however due to cost and topography will never likely be more than a minor player in electricity generation. Other renewable methods efficiency is comparible with dirtier methods. Thermal solar efficiency is one of the worst at around 20%.

Basically, electric car use on a wide scale will require a lot of new generation capacity whilst at the same time we have to create new capacity just to stay still as existing power plants get to the end of their life. Also don't forget that wind farms lifespans are finite. Many of the early ones will soon be due for decommissioning I think. I am not saying it shouldn't be done but it requires a lot of new costly development. We are likely to find that a full charge is likely to cost in the region of £40-£50

we have to do something drastic with our energy generation, however I tend not to see an appetite from anyone to tackle this.

So how did those shitloads of wind turbines and solar panels get there?

I agree that not enough is being done, but that's Tories for you.

Maybe off street parking with charging station will become the norm. Cities will modify to suit.

That will be difficult to switch. Be an arse for tenants and even more so for anyone living on a terraced street with no parking.
Then, as others have said, you would need to deal with the massive increase in electricity demand.
There is also whether batteries can scale well in terms of demand for resources.
Outside of redesigning housing to support it I dont think it is impossible but I dont think it is going to be easy to switch over and subsidies will vanish pretty rapidly. Think it was the USA Tesla were whining because their rather expensive cars were no longer have a decent amount of the costs handed to others.
Unless there is a decent step up in range I think there would need to be some improvements in overall infrastructure. Personally an electric car would suit me just fine 99% of the time but its the remainder which would be an arse and also charging. Be easier if I was with someone and we could mix and match but without that longer trips end up needing a lot more planning.
Although then would still have charging problems. It would be okay at the moment since several points fairly close which (I assume) dont cost much and are currently almost always empty. However get a few more peeps making the same choice and then?

Once there’s enough electric vehicles on the road you’ll get charged for using a charging point, there will be a huge amount missing from Treasury funds otherwise. If the charging points remain free then it’ll be some sort of GPS based road pricing based on mileage, or VED will go through the roof EV’s, anything to keep the cash flowing in.

OK so we all pay tax whatever, I've heard so much shite over the years from white van man about how govt were increasing tax/duty on smoking as just a money making scheme into the govt coffers. And yet short of banning outright, they have also restricted sales by age, put cigs behind shutters, introduced plain packaging, banned advertising cigs, banned promotions on cigs, covered them in horrible pictures and warning labels, banned single cig sales, banned 5 packs, banned 10 packs, banned smoking in all but your home or open spaces, banned attractive names on cig packets. Next stage to come is a ban on any form of menthol cigs. Strange thing to do if it's all a money making scheme for the govt.
Possibly the future might be different in vehicle tax once we have been moved in a direction, yours is not an argument against EV tho, just that we'll have to pay tax somewhere, greater or lesser by choice.

We are likely to find that a full charge is likely to cost in the region of £40-£50

Nonsense. Renewables are bringing energy prices down, the cheapest energy enetering the gird is from windfarms and there's lots of potential. At worst the price won't go above what solar electrcity cost. The cost of charging my car from my solar panels is so cheap I can't even be bothered to work it out. Multiply 44kWh (battery capacity + charging losses) by whatever you are paying for your electricty per kWh and that's what it costs to fully charge a Zoé. If it's more than £5 I'll be surprised.

Urban EVs need less range EV advantages multiply if you go down this road. Less weight means less embedded energy and less energy to drive it

I don't disagree with that, but a low range lightweight two seater EV is a niche market within a (currently) niche market. Theres a reason a lot of EVs are now coming as SUVs - it's a hell of a lot easier to package big heavy bulky batteries into a big SUV.

I'm probably a nailed on perfect case for an EV - driveway, short journies to/from work for missus, I cycle everyday to work (electric motorbike is tempting mind...) but I think we all need to think about the sheer amount of miles we put into cars - and that does mean justifying those trips to the bike park on a weekend or carting the whatever around on a trailer for fun, as well as the popping to the newsagent for a paper in the car.

So how did those shitloads of wind turbines and solar panels get there?

I know exactly how they got there. I helped build many of them. I used be a site based engineer on wind farm sites from afar apart as Caithness and Devon. (I even got verbal abuse about ghastly wind farms when on a site where there were no other wind farms in the area). I also helped build a hydro scheme in the Highlands and worked on the tenders for many more renewables schemes.

I can say that since around 2015-2016 the work in wind farm construction has dropped off a cliff for my former employer. The fact is with EV' we will likely need many more new winfarms. Is there an appetite for this?

Edukator

Nonsense. Renewables are bringing energy prices down

My point isn't about the cost of the energy. You are right. Coal for example has been heavily subsidised. It is that with the loss of tax take from fuel, any future government will find a way of making it cost you £60 to charge your car

I think that whatever becomes cheapest will create demand. Some analysis suggests this could be solar before long, so maybe there will be an appetite.

On the basis of "if it moves tax it, and if it doesnt move tax it", you may be right, Athgray. I think a tax/km is more likely long term than trying to tax electricity. Every vehicle with a tracker and a bill based on type of road used and distance covered.

Once there’s enough electric vehicles on the road you’ll get charged for using a charging point,

Taxation issues aside *. I think the business case for free charging will keep the costs down. Supermarket A will offer free charging whilst you shop (costing them £2), forcing supermarkets B, C, D to follow suit. Same with coffee shops, gyms, and just about any other regular activity competing for your time and money.

That will be difficult to switch. Be an arse for tenants and even more so for anyone living on a terraced street with no parking.

Given that a company can make money digging up the street to lay a cable for TV in a world with terrestrial, satellite and internet options, I'm sure it's not being the whit of man to install a load of charging points. If there's room to park a car, there's room for a charging point.

The only towns that might struggle are those up north of the wall where they've not yet electrified the gas lights.

*pay as you go makes far more sense to reduce congestion so I think that's only a matter of time. Having to pay a congestion charge to use the M4 in the mornings might concentrate people's minds a bit more than a weekly trip to the forecourt.

I would like an eV or even a hybrid but my company doesn't offer them in the scheme and seeing as I do approx 1500 miles a week the infrastructure isn't there yet for me. So 2 litre diesel it is. For me it seems we have a long way to go until I can change.

I don’t disagree with that, but a low range lightweight two seater EV is a niche market within a (currently) niche market.

I think the charging at work is less of a solution than people think, too. Firstly, if I get to work and get one of the EV charging spots, that's it for the day. I'm not going to walk back to the car park (a 15 minute walk from the actual office) to unplug it and move the car to somewhere else in the car park where there might not even be a space. Realistically, one EV charging bay is going to recharge one car per day at a normal 9-5 office, maybe two or three at somewhere like a hospital that's staffed 24/7. So a big workplace would need hundreds or thousands of charging points. Secondly, why should employers pay for electricity to recharge my car? They wouldn't pay for my bus fare, or pay for my petrol, or even buy me lunch every day after I've cycled in. Why should people who've got enough money to buy a brand new car get a knock on benefit of having it recharged for free, when the poor schmucks who can just about afford the bus fare get nothing?

I'm not anti-EV by any means, I'd rather be driving one than an ICE car, and I'd rather everyone around me was driving one too. But I'd rather 30% of drivers were on bikes and another 30% were on decent public transport. As someone else alluded to earlier in the thread, electric cars don't magically solve the obesity/sedentary lifestyle problems, the space needed for parking, the deaths and injuries from crashes, or even the air pollution problems.

I think the charging at work is less of a solution than people think, too. Firstly, if I get to work and get one of the EV charging spots, that’s it for the day. I’m not going to walk back to the car park (a 15 minute walk from the actual office) to unplug it and move the car to somewhere else in the car park where there might not even be a space. Realistically, one EV charging bay is going to recharge one car per day at a normal 9-5 office,

Same reason they provided the car park space (which is pretty expensive in itself). Plenty of offices offer free parking, it's a perk. I'd be surprised if most parking spaces didn't have at least a basic charger by the end of the next decade.

You could argue "why should companies provide bike sheds, lockers and showers?" Cyclists already save money on petrol, live longer, are happier, more productive (thus more promotions and more income), why should employers pander to them and spend money on them?

Expensive 100kw fast chargers and their ilk are mostly a nesecity due to their scarcity. If there was a 16a plug everywhere you went then the cars got the 22h a day you're not using it to charge slowly. A 16a socket cost peanuts to install if you've got a wall fence or lampost to put it on.

Firstly, if I get to work and get one of the EV charging spots, that’s it for the day. I’m not going to walk back to the car park (a 15 minute walk from the actual office) to unplug it and move the car to somewhere else in the car park where there might not even be a space. Realistically, one EV charging bay is going to recharge one car per day at a normal 9-5 office, maybe two or three at somewhere like a hospital that’s staffed 24/7. So a big workplace would need hundreds or thousands of charging points.

but most will have already charged at home their 300 mile range cars which will last a week (they charge at home regularly because it becomes normal) or maybe some fast charged up on a 100kw to 350kw fast charger on route which took 15mins. You're suggesting everyone will be fighting over free chargers at work, but only the really tight arses and office w%$kers, in my world.

As is always the theme in any conversation about EV’s and thier place in a transport system.. and that is..

Most posters have the view that someone else should change both thier lifestyle and buying choices to appease those who proclaim EV’s are the answer, without actually doing anything about thier own situation.

🤷‍♂️

All to familiar.

The only towns that might struggle are those up north of the wall where they’ve not yet electrified the gas lights.

Do you mean Mosley Street?

Most posters have the view that someone else should change both thier lifestyle and buying choices to appease those who proclaim EV’s are the answer, without actually doing anything about thier own situation.

Or the same old people claim nothing will work and come up with crap reasons why it can't work and get all upset when their logic is exposed as bollocks....

Is there an official measure of how much change you need to make to be listened to>

As soon as EVs get to the same price as ICE we will get one...

For buyers of new cars this is already the case, unless you choose to compare only some of the cost items. I've always been one for older cars til they die but I think I'll move to a new or newish EV very soon.

I query whether the point around emissions just moving from exhaust pipe to power station is factually accurate. Add up the effects of proportion of renewables and nuclear in the mix, thermal efficiency of large gas-fired power stations, grid losses, battery and charging losses, extra embedded energy in the car etc on the one side, vs oil industry effects, transporting fuel, thermal efficiency of an ICE etc on the other and the amount emitted per mile is both quite dramatically reduced and changing for the better as energy mix changes.

This doesn't take away from the need to improve public transport and make other changes of course, but it's not an either/or except in the need to allocate investment, where both items should be considered favourably against a lot of other stuff we spend on (IMO).

Or the same old people claim nothing will work and come up with crap reasons why it can’t work and get all upset when their logic is exposed as bollocks….

Agreed.

They are the same recurring moaning topics without any actual material movement on either side.

And so completes the circle of bollox spouting and exasperated claims and missives.

🤷‍♂️

Funny that the best solutions (more remote working, more better public transport) are already pretty well developed and could be rolled out tomorrow if the government would just tax and spend appropriately.

i'm sure eventually I'll move to an electric car, but given that every 4-5yrs I tend to buy 8-10yr old cars and run them until they stop running, it'll be while yet....hopefully the infrastructure will be better by then, and even better my ageing neighbour will have agreed to sell me their garden with road acesss so I can build a garage/workshop/charging area...

Hmmm, think for me (20,000 miles/year with a significant load) it'll be hydrogen not electric.

Either way it's not actually doing much for the environment over fossil fuels (if you look at "cradle to grave" energy costs) until we're 100% nuclear/renewable and cars are redesigned to last much longer than 10 years again.

My new house comes with solar panels which could be an option for a small local Elec car, but that role is normally fulfilled by bike or push scooter...

Edit: I do see how EV makes sense in cities. Just not a great idea (yet) for the rest of us!!