[Closed] Anyone know anything about "Bowen Therapy"?

Sounds like it could be a bit

na more like this

Put it this way, I bracket it with homeopathy.

I work in personal injury claims, and when I get an invoice from charlatans practicing this rubbish, I just refuse to pay.

Anything about ill defined "energies" and techniques that don't involve "touching" are total mince imho.

You rarely see a genuine GP recommending this. I see the odd PI whiplash "rubber stamper" ie medical "expert" paid by solicitors to find something wrong with people for cash handouts, recommend it, which only increases my incredulity.

Cheers jujuuk68

Pretty much what I thought.

So bearing in mind I'm not suffering from a car accident related injury, but have had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome on and off for almost 3 years, a waste of time?

Purely coincidental that my Dad's friend recovered from CFS 8 years ago having gone through some Bowen Treatment?

It may be of benefit as a placebo.

If you look online at any websites - they all look rather "legit", ie mentions of head offices, "anatomists" ect.

Remeber the poo doctor - and how the term "nutritionist" has no clinical meaning, unlike say dietician. Well, bowen technique practitioners indulge in the same mumbo jumbo, with courses, certificates and other hogwash. but essentially, it was invented out in the bush by some australian bloke with no clinical or even high level qualifications, and its virtually "hands off" - with some daft spin that its successful due to the practitioner leaving the room.

No doubt some of these Bowen people are very nice, and well meaning, but frankly if I could charge you for mumbling about energy, and then spending most of the treatment session out the room (laughing at you and counting your cash).

If you got ongoing problems, then do try it, dont let me stop you, but I'd love to see Ben Goldacre do a piece on it.

Indeed, if anyone can interpret this for me from a website :-

The Bowen Technique helps the body remember how to heal itself. The gentle yet powerful Bowen moves send neurological impulses to the brain resulting in immediate responses of muscle relaxation and pain reduction. The moves create energy surges. Electrical impulses sent to the nervous system remind the body to regain normal movement in joints, muscles and tendons. This helps relieve muscle spasms and increase blood and lymph flow.

The Bowen Technique affects the body primarily through the nervous and the bioenergetic systems, to bring it into a state of balance

The autonomic nervous system controls over 80% of bodily functions (cardiac, respiratory, peripheral circulation, reproductive, endocrine, gastrointestinal) and is very susceptible to stress and emotional tensions. For healing to happen, the body needs to shift from sympathetic (fight/ flight mode) to parasympathetic (vegetative mode) dominance. For this to happen, it needs time and space to literally unwind and "digest" physical and emotional stress. The Bowen Technique facilitates these positive shifts.

Me? I quote Catherine Tate's grandmother... what a load of old shite...

Not specifically about Bowen technique, but Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' is worth a read on this sort of thing.

Cheers

Figured it would be Placebo effect, just like all the other treatments out there. Great if youre the kind of easily led person that buys into things like... Oooh, I dunno, religion perhaps! 😉

Seriously though, cheers much appreciated, will keep up with what I know is working for me so far (riding bikes, going to the gym) and be patient!

Freeview channel 46 - back-to-back Bullseye - that's Bowen Therapy

[img] [/img]

So as usual lots of people slagging off something they have no experience of.

First of all it doesn't work for everyone - the same way that paracetamol doesn't work for everyone.

I have had it on several occasions. It doesn't always work, but 80% of the time it does.

I was very sceptical at first - my partner was very enthusiastic about it and booked my first session after I screwed my knee a week before doing a 26mile walk. Frankly I was staggered at how well it healed, and I was able to get to 25miles before it became painful. I was pretty much converted at that point. It can feel really weird lying on a treatment bed and feeling your body re-arrange itself and various aches and pains just disappear.

I have recommended it to around 20 people with around an 80% success rate. One guy at work had back pain which frequently left him in tears despite co-codemol. He had various osteopaths, chiropractors, psyiotheropists, acupuncturists etc work on him over several months with no significant results. Two bowen treatments, and he was cured, and I've seen other similar results.

I stress I have no connection with anyone who practices this, just some very good experiences. It's cheap, pain-free and surprisingly effective, so why not give it a try?

And this

Put it this way, I bracket it with homeopathy.

I work in personal injury claims, and when I get an invoice from charlatans practicing this rubbish, I just refuse to pay.

Anything about ill defined "energies" and techniques that don't involve "touching" are total mince imho.

You rarely see a genuine GP recommending this. I see the odd PI whiplash "rubber stamper" ie medical "expert" paid by solicitors to find something wrong with people for cash handouts, recommend it, which only increases my incredulity.

is really pathetic. For a start it's not hands off - it does involve touching, secondly my GP does recommend it, and thirdly I have seen it have very good effects on whiplash, so maybe you should get out of your cave and realise that therapies like this could maybe save youe company a lot a money.

[i]the same way that paracetamol doesn't work for everyone[/i]

Would you care to expand on this bit?

From Wikipedia,

The Bowen technique or Bowen therapy is a term used to describe a variety of therapies based on the work of the Australian layman Tom Bowen... There is no rigorous research supporting the therapy

So as usual lots of people [s]slagging off something they have no experience of.[/s] [b]understanding the placebo effect, and that anecdote isn't the singular of evidence[/b]

FTFY.

I've got a sure fire cure for the common cold. For just £50 pounds you can come along to one of my healing sessions and I guarantee that for at least 80% of participants, your cold symptoms will start to improve within a few days.

is really pathetic. For a start it's not hands off - it does involve touching, secondly my GP does recommend it, and thirdly I have seen it have very good effects on whiplash, so maybe you should get out of your cave and realise that therapies like this could maybe save youe company a lot a money.

Ok. Explain the scientific basis on which it works, and point me in the direction of a single clinical trial which has any peer review legitimacy, in the last 50 years, and I'll accept that I am pathetic.

You were already of the opinion from your partner that it would be effective, and so you expected it to work, and so you unquantifiably feel "different"/"better". I expect you'd feel better if she told you she had a magic pill made of a "special" sugar. Don't feel angry or confused, it is an alternative version of the placebo effect, in itself well documented.

There are of course, people who feel healed by Lourds water as well, but frankly, until you show me it really is the tears of the virgin mary, I'll put it down to the power of belief and the mind, over the healing power of the water itself. I have no issue with people feling that Bowen may be of some help to them, but there is no science at all behind it. The practitioners are not generally in any way clinically qualified, but they might have some impressive initials after their name from "Bowen" courses. Its a bit like the Scientologists in that respect. In the meantime, your GP who couldnt heal you, recommended this to you. That is almost a perfect circular argument, an incompetent GP recommends nonsense as he cannot do anyhting himself, because he is incompetent.

Anyway, as no one has explained to me what having my "bioenergies in balance" actually means, I am off to feel my chakras.

So explain acupuncture then. Same sort of principle. Explain why it's so effective on other mammals - particularly horses. My partner came across it after she witnessed it working very effectively on a horse (she works in the equine industry) and investigated it further How does the horse know about the placebo effect? It's quite widely used in the equine industry.

Why would I be able to explain how it works? I'm not a practitioner. I can't explain how Ibuprofen works but it doesn't stop me taking them.

Obviously everything in Wikipeadia is deadly accurate isn't it...

Most of the people I have recommended it to have tried everything else and finally tried Bowen out of desperation. Funny that the placebo effect didn't kick in with any of the other treatments isn't it?

jujuuk68
Are you so closed minded about everything? How are you concluding that my GP is incompetent because he is willing to try something which doesn't involve just writing out a prescription for anti-biotics for everything. I don't know how it works and I don't really care. The simple fact is that you have never tried it and you just dismiss it out of hand. If it was left to people like you we'd still be living in caves and being "afeared" of the bright thing in the sky.

I on the other hand have tried it as have around 20 people I know. Most were very sceptical (me included) and as I have said, it doesn't always for for me, but let me give you an example.

I went for a treatment for back pain. The practitioner was working primarily on my back but worked on my whole body. She was working on my knees and suddenly I felt the slight stomach cramp I had been having all day just release. Afterwards I asked her if she had done anything for my stomach and she said "did you feel it release when I was on your knee - that's quite a strong link". She couldn't see my stomach and didn't know I had any pain there.

So before you slag it off ask yourself: Do you think medical science knows everything about how the human body works? Or could it be that there are still things we don't understand?

Look I'm not going to defend it any more. If you want to condemn something you have never tried and had no experience of just because it sounds a bit hippy then that's fine, it doesn't effect me at all. But if you do try it you might just find that it works.

The energy in this thread is really dark. Needs more crystals.

I can't explain how Ibuprofen works

The difference there is, plenty of other people can.

I tried it, didn't work for me, but then I'm a fairly skeptical bugger and prefer a treatment that 'feels' like it's doing something, so the whole hands off or very light touch element just didn't work for me, I like a more physical therapy...

So explain acupuncture then. Same sort of principle. Explain why it's so effective on other mammals - particularly horses

IIRC, it's been shown that randomly sticking pins in about the place has a similar effect to acupuncture. Ie, sticking needles into people / animals can have analgesic effects, but the whole mystic woo surrounding it is, if you'll pardon the pun, horseshit. I'm pretty confident that horses don't suffer greatly from misaligned chakra, regardless of how many pins you do or don't stick into them.

Incidentally,

My partner came across it after she witnessed it working very effectively on a horse (she works in the equine industry)

Can you expand on this? What was it being used for, and what was the 'effectiveness' she witnessed?

gullible people in an industry awash where a large amount of the customer base has more money than sense? This would never happen in MTBing.

In the equine world it's used to treat muscular-skeletal issues as with humans - usually lameness.

Look the OP asked if anyone had any experience of it. Most people on here have had a quick google and concluded it's placebo or a con or witch craft. But then STW is usually occupied by people with very strong opinions on things they know nothing about.

However I have had experience. it may well be placebo, but when osteopathy, physiotherapy, chiropractic work, pain killers, muscle relaxants, anti informatory's etc don't work but Bowen does then that is my placebo of choice.

Anyway my practitioner doesn't go on about chak-ra's or energy lines. She just says that muscles and tendons get slightly out of position after maybe you sleep awkwardly or fall of your bike or hold your body badly to compensate for other injuries. All she says she does is re-aligns thing properly - literally pushes them back in to position which lets the blood flow better, the lymph system work properly and the body heals faster. Sounds plausible to me, but frankly I have no idea if this is how it works and I really don't care. All I know is that 8 times out of 10 it works for me and the people I know have tried it.

But this is based just on my experience and not wisdom gleaned from google so feel free to continue to ridicule what you know nothing about!

I tell you what's really funny. All you 'scientists' insisting that alternative therapies don't work because our knowledge of the human body doesn't allow it.

I think it's more a case of insisting that they don't work as claimed. Which isn't quite the same thing.

FWIW, cheers boriselbrus for your honest opinions on the matter. My problem is I've heard of several "miracle cures" each of them with their supporters and detractors, but every one of them very expensive and scientifically unsubstantiated.

If I was in a position of wealth, I'd try every one just to see if one perhaps works for me. I'm not so can't really afford to go trying various things just on a whim. Hence asking for any experiences.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't such a sceptical bugger though, the effectiveness of the placebo effect when someone believes in something cannot be under rated!

I see what you mean ian, its the arrogance of ignorance that amuses me.

"ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

[i]All she says she does is re-aligns thing properly - literally pushes them back in to position which lets the blood flow better, the lymph system work properly and the body heals faster.[/i]

boris, I'm not having a go, but how can she say the blood flow is better without measuring it, or say the lymph system is working properly without measuring it, or measure the speed of healing without comparing it?

It's all woolly cobblers which may sound plausible but cannot actually be substantiated using any sort of serious measurement; that's what makes people so sceptical.

Lameness in horses is something, like in humans, which will resolve over a period of time. Any 'treatment' carried out in the time it takes someone or somehorse to get better will produce the same 'result'.

My wife has found Bowen technique beneficial. I'm always sceptical of these things, but it's certainly [b]not[/b] like homeopathy (which might work, I don't know). It wouldn't hurt to be open-minded, you might be surprised.

I find Reflexology is really good for me and couldn't care less if some ****t on a forum is convinced it's a con (after checking what it is via google).

Two tadpoles in a pond:

1st tadpole: since I started the Bowen technique I'm feeling much better.
2nd tadpole: you realise it's not based on any proven science and trials suggest it's mainly placebo effect?

1st tadpole: but i DO feel better. What is your reason for saying this to me?
2nd tadpole: because I'm more interested in stating my superior intelligence than worrying whether you're feeling better or not.

1st tadpole: since I started the Bowen technique I'm feeling much better.
3rd tadpole: Hmm, I know, lets use it to treat the following:

Muscle Pain
Neck Pain
Back Pain
Frozen Shoulder - Adhesive Capsulitis
Arthritic Pain
Tennis / Golfers Elbow
RSI - Repetitive Strain Injury
Carpel Tunnel Syndrome
Hernia
Herniated Disc - Slipped Disc
Sporting Injuries
Headaches - Migraines
TMJ Syndrome
Postural Problems
Knee Problems
Pelvic Problems
Groin Strain
Sciatica
Coccyx Problems
Foot Problems
Ankle Problems
Hamstring Problems
Whiplash
Torticollis (muscle spasm of the neck)
Joint Problems

Pre Menstrual Syndrome
Breast Problems
Fertility Problems
Pregnancy Pain

IBS - Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Gastrointestinal Problems
Constipation
Diarrhoea
Indigestion
Bowel Problems
Nausea & Infant Colic

Kidney Problems
Chronic Fatigue - ME
Tinnitus
Glue Ear
Earache & Ear Infections
Depression
Allergies
MS
Hammer Toes
Bunions
Bed Wetting
Water Retention
Asthma
Hay Fever
Glandular Fever
Sinusitis
Bronchitis

...all taken from a bowen website...

4th tadpole: But what if any of the tadpoles actually have a serious problem that would be treatable by using proper medicine?...

5th tadpole: if it makes you feel better that's great, but don't tell me it's medicine, thanks.

It wouldn't hurt to be open-minded

This.

Never heard of Bowen therapy, and I'm fairly sceptical, but assuming you know something based on partial knowledge of the subject is an intellectual crime.

Mmm. If you open your mind too much, all kinds of things get in...

[i]but assuming you know something based on partial knowledge of the subject is an intellectual crime[/i]

Exactly; best leave medical stuff to doctors.. 😉

Mmm. If you open your mind too much, all kinds of things get in...

Things like evidence, knowledge, experience, enlightenment.. all sorts.

Exactly; best leave medical stuff to doctors..

Like Boriselbrus's GP ?

Doctors will be (or should be) the first to admit there's a hell of a lot they don't know.

[i]Things like evidence, knowledge, experience, enlightenment.. all sorts.[/i]

Which can then be used to make judgements about things like Bowen therapy, which it appears, is a gentle physical therapy that can contribute to making people feel better. I suspect that it is of limited use in the case of a number of the conditions listed above, and should therefore be regarded with some degree of scepticism.

[i]Doctors will be (or should be) the first to admit there's a hell of a lot they don't know.[/i]

...and also wouldn't claim to be able to fix all the conditions related above with a single form of treatment, and are closely monitored, registered and so on.

Scepticism is not a crime; it is a valid philosophical standpoint.

Scepticism is not a crime; it is a valid philosophical standpoint.

Of course, I said above I'm sceptical, but there's all the difference in the world between scepticism and closed-mindedness.

Scepticism is about asking questions, about saying 'Yes, it sounds great, but is it really all that?'.

There are a number of alternative therapies that make claims with regard to illness, so it seems not unreasonable to be sceptical in this case.

Scepticism is about having an open mind, but not one that's open to cobblers...

5th tadpole: if it makes you feel better that's great, but don't tell me it's medicine, thanks.

Which tadpole called it medicine?
Can't see anyone calling it medicine.

An open mind means accepting that although things may seem to be cobblers it's a good idea to be agnostic about things.

Why do people believe they need absolutes in order to rest their minds?

[i]Why do people believe they need absolutes in order to rest their minds[/i]

People don't need absolutes. But, particularly when claims of medical efficacy are made, people would like to see a bit more than 'it works'.

Most importantly because if it does work, if it is helpful we can start to use it on more people and therefore make the world a better place. However.... if it doesn't work, if it is largely the placebo effect, if it is used to treat self limiting conditions, we should be aware of its limitations and be able to make sensible decisions with regard to other treatments.

[i]An open mind means accepting that although things may seem to be cobblers it's a good idea to be agnostic about things[/i]

I agree with this, but would substitute sceptical for agnostic. Scepticism is about learning rather than simply accepting.

[i]Scepticism is about having an open mind, but not one that's open to cobblers...[/i]

Scepticism isn't the same as saying something is bollocks while knowing f-all about it. Having an open mind means I don't need a doctor's opinion* and isn't the same as an open wallet.

* who are also fallible and prey for drug companies.

[i]Scepticism isn't the same as saying something is bollocks while knowing f-all about it.[/i]

That's what STW is for...

I do know a fair bit about medicine and poorly folk, so I think I'm entitled to be sceptical...

[i]* who are also fallible and prey for drug companies.[/i]

..in the same way that you are...

Like I mentioned to you a few months ago, check out the Lightning Process. I know 3 people (inc the missus) who transformed overnight from being riddled with varying degrees of ME to leading perfectly healthy active lifestyles.

I think some of the posters who are "pro" or for the idea of Bowen, have totally missed the point I was making.

You may feel better during treatment. Thats entirely natural. There are sociologial experiments going back for years to show that when humans have an "interest" taken in them, they feel different. If you go through the mystical journey of going into a room with a practitioner who does something you dont understand, but your receiving their "care" and "atention", then that will have an affect on your wellbeing.

How else do you explain psychiatry, where its all about the minds effect on pain?

However, what I had tried to demonstrate is that the garbage cited by Bowen practitioners isn't that they are doing something spooky that they don't understand but it seems to work. It's the opposite, by trying to use meaningless quazi-technical words to describe functions of the body that either don't exist, or are so ill defined by the practitioners that they are wrapping up their mumbo jumbo to try and fool you into thinking its a genuine technique. Its almost exactly like homeopathy in that sense.

"Electrical impulses sent to the nervous system remind the body to regain normal movement in joints, muscles and tendons".

Next, you'll be able to get your knee ligaments to take your calls whilst your out with that kind of "memory". Now, I think we can all see what they are trying to say. Some ill defined "memory". We link it in our mind and interpret it a certain way, (thinming like when you stretch a piece of meat, and it slowly goes back to shape". Is Bowen suiggesting thats the injury thought? Dunno how that treats asthma, or fybromyalgia? (Although many poeple think fybrymyalgia is a psyciatric injury itself, it cannot be explained). But this explaination cuts no clinical mustard what so ever.

If Bowen practitioners could clinically tell me what was happening, and why, and how, then I'd be prepared to cast my questioning aside.

But Bowen has all the hallmarks of a "cult/con". Most of the practitioners are not qualified in any other clinical area, just a bunch of beardy limb stretchers. There are courses set up to train and take your money, but none of them are from "proper" places of study. They may call themselves "anatomisers", which sounds impressive but means nothing. THere are few genuine osteo/chiropracters, who's work can be readilly understood, who would endorse Bowen. Its all like the Poo Doctor McKeith and her Cod PHD who calls herself a nutritionist as it again has no meaning.

Basically if the bloke rubbing his hands on you (very lightly, through clothes, remember kids this is in no way whatsoever chiro or osteo, nor even massage)cant say what he is doing, how it works, or why, then do you not question why he is even there?

Still if you want to believe things that cant be explained, then go ahead. Dont call other people close minded thought. Suicide bombers believe if a spooky old guy in the sky who will give them 40 virgins for killing an israeli. Thats where believing unexplainable shit eventually takes you.

Most importantly because if it does work, if it is helpful we can start to use it on more people and therefore make the world a better place. However.... if it doesn't work, if it is largely the placebo effect, if it is used to treat self limiting conditions, we should be aware of its limitations and be able to make sensible decisions with regard to other treatments.

I agree entirely with this. I too am a Ben Goldacre fan.
It's just that sometimes there creeps into people's arguments a sneering, condescending tone that does nobody any good.

[i]It's just that sometimes there creeps into people's arguments a sneering, condescending tone that does nobody any good[/i]

Again, I agree, and I have been guilty of that in the past, I'm trying to be ...ah... less dismissive because, as you, molgrips and others have pointed out, it's not a good thing.

There is though, the problem that when I/we show scepticism, it is not accepted as a valid position when it actually takes an amount of thought and attention to consider the suggestions and decide that they are not what they seem. 🙂

Still if you want to believe things that cant be explained

If you think that only things that can be explained are real, then you know nothing about science!

I was sceptical about the iDave diet, but then I listened and learned and now I understand it. If I'd been dismissive or had a closed mind I wouldn't have bothered.

Are you suggesting that Dave's diet can't be explained though?

In the equine world it's used to treat muscular-skeletal issues as with humans - usually lameness.

I didn't ask what it was used for, it can be used to raise the Titanic for what difference that makes; you said your partner had [i]seen it work[/i] (paraphrasing) and I asked for clarification on that, which you've not given.

that is my placebo of choice.

Which is absolutely fine. Good luck with that.

Anyway my practitioner doesn't go on about chak-ra's or energy lines.

What are your practitioner's qualifications, out of interest?

But this is based just on my experience and not wisdom gleaned from google so feel free to continue to ridicule what you know nothing about!

I was questioning, not ridiculing. Are you being defensive because you're worried I'm right?

I tell you what's really funny. All you 'scientists' insisting that alternative therapies don't work because our knowledge of the human body doesn't allow it.

No. I'm insisting they don't work because, under test, they demonstrably don't work. [i]How [/i]they work is neither here nor there. I'd believe in Homeopathy if it stood up to double-blind testing (or even if Homeopaths ever agreed to such tests).

its the arrogance of ignorance that amuses me.

Ah, irony.

people would like to see a bit more than 'it works'.

Not exactly. People would like to see a bit more than "it works, above and beyond placebo."

Many, many things "work." Most cold remedies "work." Next time you have a cold, cover your nipples in yoghurt, three times a day. I guarantee that in a couple of weeks your cold will have cleared right up.

Are you suggesting that Dave's diet can't be explained though?

No - it went against what I thought I knew about exercise diet, and I turned out to be wrong. Well, more accurately I didn't know a lot of important facts.

No. I'm insisting they don't work because, under test, they demonstrably don't work

Every single one?

Every single one?

Well, the ones that make it as far as testing. I can't think, off hand, of an alternative therapy whose efficacy stands up to double-blind testing but its mechanism is unknown. Open to suggestion?

What about non-alternative therapies whose mechanism is unknown then?

Sorry cougar I'm afraid your cold, 3 dimensional logic has no place in treating an orgaism that clearly exists in multiple planes.

In 200 years the medical profession will regard today's 'accepted fact' as grubbing around in the verges of understanding. It matters not that the accepted medical profession rejects anything that doesn't rely on being proven and measured in an accepted scale. It's similar with historians and the mainstream rejection of psychological archeology. Very similar.

What about non-alternative therapies whose mechanism is unknown then?

Mm, what about them? Not sure as I see the difference?

In 200 years the medical profession will regard today's 'accepted fact' as grubbing around in the verges of understanding.

On this at least, I have no doubts that you're correct.

Like I mentioned to you a few months ago, check out the Lightning Process. I know 3 people (inc the missus) who transformed overnight from being riddled with varying degrees of ME to leading perfectly healthy active lifestyles.

I did a LOT of research, fact finding and investigations into the Lightning Process after you suggested it. Without going into too much detail about my character, or wishing to sound ungrateful, I just don't think it would work for me. It undoubtedly has worked for some people, but from what I've found it also doesn't work for a heck of a lot more, only the guys who sell the Lightning Process are adamant it works for everyone who "believes" in it... In other words, they're selling a Placebo! If I wake up everyday and believe I'm getting better, eventually I will... The problem is the actual believing in the first place, as with most long term illnesses there's the element of depression that keeps creeping back in... On the whole though I'm shedloads better than I was 3 months ago, hell I raced as part of a team of 4 at SITS last weekend and didn't disgrace myself! Still struggle with odd sleep patterns, and 1 or 2 days a week when I'm wiped out, but 3 months ago it was 1 or 2 days a week I was ok and the other 5 or 6 I was wiped out.

Bear Grylls is a big fan of Bowen Therapy apparently

[url= http://www.****/health/article-450338/Adventurer-Bear-Grylls-battle-pain-high-cholesterol.html ]Bear Grylls[/url]

Mboy, did you read about ribose during your research?

I didn't do a lot of research into 'the Lightning Process,' I did what any self-respecting geek would do and looked it up on Wikipedia.

The first sentence reads,

The system is derived from osteopathy, neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) and life coaching

You don't really need to go any further there really, do you. Osteopathy is demonstrably good for lower back pain and not much else, despite some practitioners making all sorts of wild claims to the contrary. NLP is widely discredited nonsense, and Life Coaching is essentially a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

From this we can conclude that the 'Lightning Process' is a bit of a back rub, and a man in a white coat listening to your problems and telling you that it's [i]really [/i]all going to be alright now.

What really made me laugh, though, was this.

it is made clear that the Lightning Process does not guarantee positive results, and patients themselves should accept full responsibility for whether they improve or not

it is claimed that people using the Lighting Process have recovered from, or experienced significant improvement with the following issues and conditions:

ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, PVFS, adrenal fatigue
acute and chronic pain, back pain, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, migraine, injury
PMT, perimenopausal symptoms and menopause
clinical depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety and panic attacks, OCD and PTSD
low self-esteem, confidence issues
hay fever, asthma and allergies
candida, interstitial cystitis, urinary infections, bladder and bowel problems
IBS, coeliac disease, crohns disease, food intolerances
blood pressure, cardiac arrhythmia, type 2 diabetes, restless leg syndrome
hyper and hypo thyroidism
insomnia and sleep disorders,
autistic spectrum disorder, dyspraxia, ADHD
lymes disease, glandular fever, epstein barr
weight and food issues, anorexia
multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, parkinsonian tremor, motor neurone disease

Currently there is no evidence from medical trials of a positive effect for any of these conditions

Remember kiddies, if it sounds too good to be true...

Explainthe placebo effect to me please. Why does it work for some people? How can science measure it's impact. What measurement unit is used?

I don't know -why- it works. But as I've said repeatedly, whether or not I (or anyone) understands it is not a prerequisite for it to work. I guess we're just very susceptible to suggestion.

It's demonstrably effective though. Give a hundred people a dummy pill and tell them it'll have some beneficial effect, give another the same pill and tell them it will have a negative effect, then measure how many people feel better or worse. Here, the only change in treatment is what you tell people.

That's probably a bad example, before you go taking it apart. There's probably a raft of better ways of testing, I'm not a doctor.

[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_scat_57_ln?rh=n%3A57%2Ck%3Aplacebo&keywords=placebo&ie=UTF8 ]Here's a good start[/url]

See now cougar this is my problem with your position.

You don't really need to go any further there really, do you. Osteopathy is demonstrably good for lower back pain and not much else, despite some practitioners making all sorts of wild claims to the contrary. NLP is widely discredited nonsense, and Life Coaching is essentially a nice cup of tea and a sit down.
From this we can conclude that the 'Lightning Process' is a bit of a back rub, and a man in a white coat listening to your problems and telling you that it's really all going to be alright now.
What really made me laugh, though, was this.

If it works it works. The fact that science can't explain it is not grounds for dismissal. Yes there are charlatans in alternative medicine but that seems to be the case in pretty much ALL professions no?

If it works it works. The fact that science can't explain it is not grounds for dismissal.

But back to Bowen technique. That the practioners wrap up what they do in cod semi clinical terms, which are totally meaningless, concern me. Its that they are actually explaining what they do, in total twaddle, but it sounds plausable to 90% of the population.

I'd be more impressed if they said "it works but we don't know why". But then no one would go to a practiioner who was that honest. But all this thing about "electrical impulses", "energies" "letting the body remember".

Even witch doctors must have some measure of success, or belief in them would have died out hundreds of years ago.

I'm amazed people are still fooled by all this nonsense - somebody is laughing all the way to the bank though.... and it's not the patient...

Power Balance bands anybody?

If you've been let down let by the NHS enough times you'll be ready to try anything..

but flipping heck there's some pharmaceutical company pawns around in't there..?

ace.. 😆

Regarding placebo, one question is - if what might be a termed a placebo reaction occurs is that [i]necessarily[/i] a bad thing?

And what about [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo ]Nocebo[/url]?

@crikey, even you have to admit you don't know it all. The complexity of the human body is not something medical science has yet mastered. We would like science to explain everything but even in this technologically advanced age it can't. That's not an excuse to dismiss any claims of quackery and snake oil selling but I'd suggest it is better to approach techniques and methodologies with an open, enquiring mind. Plenty of widely held myths and assumptions and even so-called 'facts' have been debunked.

[i]I'd suggest it is better to approach techniques and methodologies with an open, enquiring mind.[/i]

Which I do, but the open, enquiring bit of my mind is asking for some proof, for some evidence other than 'That'll be £50, you'll feel right as rain soon'.

I don't know it all, for example I have no veterinary training what so ever, but I can tell what an elephant looks like, and similarly, I can tell a quack therapy pretty efficiently from a considerable distance.

In 200 years the medical profession will regard today's 'accepted fact' as grubbing around in the verges of understanding.

But what they've discovered then will be based on what we know now. "Science" is just a logical way of looking at something based on prior logical conclusions. That's not to say that it doesn't correct itself, but it does so by review and logical process. It's just the opposite of wooly thinking really.

If it works it works. The fact that science can't explain it is not grounds for dismissal.

This is the nub, isn't it. If it 'works' in so far as it gets a result, even if that result is exactly the same as a sham treatment, should we still be taking it seriously? Moreover, should we be lining the pockets of con artists?

Years ago, doctors used to be able to prescribe placebo treatments. They were called pink aspirin, and they attracted similar testimonials about their brilliance from satisfied customers. They were essentially just chalk, no active ingredients whatsoever. But they worked, I'll wager just as well as any of this pseudo-scientific twaddle, and they didn't cost sixty quid a session for someone to lie to you.

These days they're not allowed to prescribe placebo. Maybe that policy needs revisiting.

Mboy, did you read about ribose during your research?

No I didn't actually, but a quick search now brings up as many doubters as believers as per usual!

What's the theory with it?

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