[Closed] anyone here make sourdough?

I have some in the fridge, haven't actually used for a while and I'm no particular expert. Started from scratch about 10y ago which took a bit of effort but once it was growing it seems pretty stable and indestructible (sent it on a 2 month round the world trip, dried in a shipping container). Have done some bread, also use it in many baking recipes like pancakes and cornbread.

Oh, I should have said, the no-knead recipe/video on the web somewhere is quite good. Long ferment with sourdough you don't really knead to need. Don't be afraid to experiment, it's all bread and quite edible even when it doesn't quite turn out as you hoped 🙂

Yes, I do. I just use a bowl with an old pillow case in it to do the rise, dust it with rye flour to stop it sticking. I use around 10-15% rye in the mix (otherwise the dough is really sticky and hard to work), the rest is just a mixture of white and wholemeal in varying proportions depending on whether I want heavy or lighter bread. I do knead mine but only rise it once. Takes 24hrs to be ready at this time of year, just overnight in the summer. I use a stone in the oven, and would recommend making some kind of baker's peel, just a bit of ply and a bit of broom handle in my case. I put a bit of greaseproof paper onto the loaf before turning it onto the peel and then chucking it onto the stone.

Definitely worth doing if you are into this kind of thing, also nice relaxing task if you've got the time.

Used to and it makes fantastic bread but I found  you had to keep it going or it dies.  It was fun but I wasn't making bread often enough to make it worth the effort of looking after

Had a few starters over the years - they've invariably bitten the dust during a long summer holiday through inattention. Nobody else in the house likes it, so I've always found it a bit of a waste, never quite got into a steady pattern with it.

lesshaste - is the method you describe up there ^^^ using an established starter?

don't use someone else's starter - make your own. My best ones have "beard bread" and "baby's head bread". i.e. just scratch / scrape whatever your source is into a bowl of flour and water and let it go off for a week, replacing half the flour each day (follow usual instructions). Depending what your "source" is, you might not want to tell people 🙂 (This was inspired by Black Labrador Beer in Oregon...)

@2tyred  Yes, my starter is around 3 years old.  While I admire Jimmy's adventurous methods of starting his, boringly I just went for using 50/50 flour and water for a week or so, and I've kept it going ever since.  How long are your summer holidays, mine is ok after a good feed and then tucked up in the fridge for a couple of weeks.

Didn't someone in the states brew beer with vaginal yeast?

I used to make bread every day when the wee one was a baby, became just part of my routine. Problem was, ended up eating a shitload of bread (and butter!)

no-knead recipe/video? where can I find it? which makes better result baking soda or yeast

So, forgive this perhaps stupid question, but what's the difference between using some random yeast you scraped off a slightly smelly body part, picking up whatever yeast is in the air, or just using dried yeast in a packet (which is a lot less hassle) ?

Sure different yeasts will produce different flavours, but is there anything else beyond it?

used to, rarely bother now but the starter lives on for pizzas.  oh and smashed avo on sourdough natch

Dettigers02, Bread risen with baking soda is called Soda Bread, it's quick and easy to make.  Soughdough is made using a 'starter' made from water and flour and natural yeasts from the air and can take several days to make.  The two are very different.

I kept a starter going for most of last year, but neglected it at the back of the fridge and I thought I'd better throw it out.  It made excellent bread.  I cheated and started it with a bit of dried yeast but I've heard yoghurt works well and will try that next time.

Ok, for me its mostly about the flavour and texture difference. Sour dough starters raise bread with natural yeasts in a similar albeit slower less predictable way than normal dried baker's yeast. The payoff for accepting this dodgier rising is that the starter also contains lots of lactobacillus, and these also consume starches and sugars in the flour leaving interesting sour flavours and to alot of people, tastier bread.

There is also a lot of stuff floating about the internet about the bread being tolerated better by the intolerant, but being a soaking wet liberal in my outlook, knitting yoghurt and hand wringing etc, I'm unable to comment on this personally.

I got sent on a course by my wife at christmas (she likes sourdough) at the thoughful bread company in bath, which was really good, you get part of their starters as part of the course, both rye and wheat which are 10years old. I have kept it up so far doing a loaf every couple of days. I normally bake a wheat loaf it in a tin to give a softer crust, but i have also done larger free form loafs. I am going to put my rye starter in the freezer as the my kids aren't as keen and i keep forgetting to feed that one.

i use the no kneed method, so i generally get the starter out the fridge in the morning, feed it, make the dough when i get home from work, to the strectch and pull method a few times during the evening, stick it in the tin before bed, and bake first thing in the morning.

I have also made pizza and bagels a few times which go down well

We don't, but a neighbour got made redundant and started her own business making sourdough bread. It's been her full time business for many years now...

https://breadonabike.wordpress.com/about/

If you follow her on Social media, you get all the recipe tips etc. She bakes different flavours each week.

Some variants to try:

https://breadonabike.wordpress.com/bread-and-ingredients/

good info and whetting my appetite to get started!

ill have a look at the 'no-knead' method.  sounds easier but will there be a compromise if you dont knead?

 I use around 10-15% rye in the mix (otherwise the dough is really sticky and hard to work), the rest is just a mixture of white and wholemeal in varying proportions depending on whether I want heavy or lighter bread. I do knead mine but only rise it once. Takes 24hrs to be ready at this time of year, just overnight in the summer. I use a stone in the oven, and would recommend making some kind of baker’s peel, just a bit of ply and a bit of broom handle in my case. I put a bit of greaseproof paper onto the loaf before turning it onto the peel and then chucking it onto the stone.

ill look into rye, probably need to start making good basic loaves before experimenting with different mixes tho.  what does rye bring to the mix, different flavour or texture?  and wholemeal flour, does it make it lighter or heavier?

yes, ill be looking at buying a stone too.  think my list includes a basket, stone, bread scraper and shower cap to go over the basket.....

Used to and it makes fantastic bread but I found  you had to keep it going or it dies.  It was fun but I wasn’t making bread often enough to make it worth the effort of looking after

and this is where i think ill end up 😀

don’t use someone else’s starter – make your own.

might i ask why?  is a starter not a starter?  someone elses may be better than mine anyway?

The payoff for accepting this dodgier rising is that the starter also contains lots of lactobacillus, and these also consume starches and sugars in the flour leaving interesting sour flavours and to alot of people, tastier bread.

on the subject of interesting flavours, the first loaf i tasted from my mate i could have sworn had vinegar in it, he insisted it didnt.  i loved that vinegary taste yet havent tasted it in any of his other loaves.

thanks for that link to your neighbours site footflaps, some interesting mixes there, ill hopefully steal a few of them if i get confident at this.

from watching my mate, it looks like my method will be mixing 500g flour, 220g (think he said grammes not ml anyway) of water, sea salt (not sure what quantity), then kneading it for 10 mins or so.  chuck in a mixing bowl with a shower cap on the top for a couple of hours.  then take out, stretch to 3 times the size of basket, fold over 3 times to basket size, place in basket, shower cap on, leave overnight to prove.  preheat oven to max with pizza stone in, empty the dough onto stone and cook for half hour or so depending on your oven.  he also puts a tray of water underneath in the oven and also sprays water onto the bread and around it.

cant remember what he did with the starter, 50/50 maybe flour and water, cover with teatowel, leave til next day and go again.

how does that compare with your mixes and methods?

Random replies to above

There is a lot of tosh talked about bread making don't get fooled by over complicating the process. Its flour water salt yeast anything else is a variation. If you really want to try before you buy lots of stuff then make a bread that uses sponge or leven first which is a pre fermentation starter. You this make as required and works in a similar way to a sourdough starter but is yeast based. The real secret is time. Long slow fermentation overnight in the fridge makes a better bread than warm short rise time.

https://smittenkitchen.com/2010/01/new-york-deli-rye-bread/

Tartine method.

https://mailchi.mp/bread-magazine/56-international-bread-week?e=6923a28a75

According to legend the original San Francisco Sourdough starter was made during California gold rush by spitting in the dough although more likely to have been a family starter carried with them. I used organic grapes with Spelt flour for mine.

Lots of good books out there but be careful of the American ones as they use strange measures if you are used to metric.

It is a fascinating subject if you get hooked but be warned it is addictive and you end up a bore like me.

Sourdough isn't just yeast, there's lactobacilli too (hence sour). Whether it's better for you or not is another matter.

Sadex my starter is approx 40% water to 60% wholemeal flour. So if I've just made bread, I'd leave say 5g of starter behind in the jar. To that I would add 3g of flour and 2g of water. 12 hours on I would double it again, this time 6g of flour 4g of water.... and so on until I had enough to bake again.That would be when the starter was about 10% of the weight of the flour you were using to make the loaf. It can be left a few days without feeding, but I think it works better if it is at the end of a few feeds, its a bit more active like that.

I think if you are not doing too much kneading, you could up the amount of rye in your bread. Rye flour has a strong sourish taste, which is fantastic, but has less gluten, so makes a heavier more solid loaf. Best toast going though!

Like Mariner said, there is a good deal of technical style guff talked about bread, best thing is to dive in and have a go, it all tastes good, but also you always think you could improve it next time.

A few years ago I made a lot of sourdough bread, recipe off bbc food was as good as any. I had to stop as I was eating most of a loaf (while still warm, with an inch of salted butter on top while stood in the kitchen) 3 or 4 times a week and I was piling on the weight.

I may give it another go and see if I can find some self control from somewhere

While the breadnoscenti are here - what's the consensus on why loaves (baked on a stone, not in tins) split?

I've been baking bread for over a decade, 3 or 4 loaves a week plus other stuff, and I have never been able to identify precisely why this sometimes happens. Done all sorts of experimenting with oven temp, moisture, prove conditions, knead length, slashes, handling etc - never been able to definitively work out why some loaves just split and others don't.

A minor annoyance, but it's always bothered me.

I usually have about 100-150 grams of starter in a kilner jar without a seal in the fridge, get it out, add about 150 grames of flour and 150 grams of water to it, give it a mix and leave. it seems to be go to go after about 5 to 6 hours.

I am no expert but the baker on my course told me, if you want a more sour tasting loaf you can change the quantity of the starter. strangely using less starter will give a more sour taste.

also heavier flours, like wholemeal and rye need a greater percentage of starter to make them rise.

on the subject of interesting flavours, the first loaf i tasted from my mate i could have sworn had vinegar in it, he insisted it didnt.  i loved that vinegary taste yet havent tasted it in any of his other loaves.

Assuming its the same as beer (it basically is) then that's an acetobateria infection. One of the more common faults you get in pubs when they've not sold enough beer as it grows in the lines usually. Its a bacteria that turns the alcohol into vinegar. Whereas lactobaculus turns carbs into lactic acid (which is why sourdough and some Belgian beers taste of natural yogurt/yakult).

Like most things fermentation related it will taste horrible long before it kills you (hallucinogenic wheat germ aside!). Plenty of Belgian beers are only legal as they're grandfathered into EU law, you really wouldn't want to know what's been found in the starters!

2tyred   disclaimer first, I'm definitely no expert. My freeform loaves never split, but I do cut a big cross into the top before baking. Once I forgot and did get a random fissure running along the top. One thing that occurs to me is my house temperature is on the cool side, is yours v.warm by any chance? Another thing is moisture content in the dough, might it be a dry mix? Mines about 880cc into 1300g and feels pretty wet.

Didn’t someone in the states brew beer with vaginal yeast?

No it was actually sour dough:

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a49894/yeast-infection-sourdough-bread/

We get excellent sourdough from our baker but I'm certainly tempted to give it a go. Most other breads can "get in the sea" as I believe young people say.

Certainly easier to use someone else's starter  - after a few refreshes it will be totally "yours" anyway.  I don't experiment much these days but just make a white, white/wholemeal or granary which all come out just great - have recipes if you want. Also good to try is a 100% rye flour which is the best with cheese. The loaves all last for a week (if they are not eaten first) and the starters live in the fridge and will last for over a week before needing a refresh (you can put in freezer too for occasional use). It's not difficult and most of the skill is in the shaping of the loaf which comes with practice - as stated above; even if the loaf is flat or split, it will still taste good.

I've been making it for a year or so. Found the no knead recipe from Hobbs house bakery really simple. Using the Dutch oven to bake it gives it a really professional look of lovely shiney thick crust. I feed my starter once a week and keep it in the fridge.

been reading one of footflaps links, the hugh fearnley whatever his name is method and he mentions making a 'sponge' first as part of the process.  anyone do that?  seems an extra layer of faff for something im hoping will be simple.  havent looked at the 'no knead' method yet, ill go and find it on youtube now i think.  will the trade-off be the same loaf but takes longer from start to finish?

id like to get in a routine of doing all the faffing in the evening, leaving it to prove overnight and then baking in the morning.

blanklook, ill message you for a few recipes. EDIT:  no email address so ive pm'd you.  let me know if you dont receive it as thats happened to me before, new forum and all that......

thanks

https://www.hobbshousebakery.co.uk/blogs/recipes/henrys-sourdough

Just about to take mine out of the fridge and bake in a couple of hours. Started it yesterday afternoon. Slow process but very little actual hands on time. When I was looking at making my first sourdough I was put off by the overly complicated recipes online including the Hugh one. Try the one above trust me! Get yourself a Dutch oven if you've not got one as it's useful to have anyway but you can make it in a bread tin or on a stone the crust just won't be as pretty. Sometimes I half or 2/3rds the recipe depending on need. I vary the flours and seeds also.

Edit. I dont fold the dough with a wet hand but with a wet, large, flat plastic spoon as you have to fold it over the course of a few hours I just find it less faff then you don't have to keep washing your hands. I'll have one on the go when I'm bumbling about doing chores. I've also left it for a couple of hours if I need to go out and it still comes out fine.

thanks, good link, and it was actually hobbshouse website i was looking at last night.

few further questions........ im still not sure what the difference in end product is between kneading and no-kneading.  why would you choose one over the other?  obviously no-kneading will be easier, but if it doesnt get the dough right itll be an inferior loaf wont it?  and if it isnt, then whats the point in kneading and why would you go to the bother?

secondly, proving baskets.  they seem to come with some sort of linen liner.  i guessed that was to take out and cover the dough with once its in the basket, but ive seen pics on google of the dough actually in the liner.  whats the liner for?

thirdly, dutch ovens.  same as a casserole dish of slow cooker inner?  again ive googled and there may be slight differences in material, shape etc but does that matter in bread-making?

thanks

Regarding the sponge and all that, I just put the starter into the measuring jug with the water and give it a 5 second whizz with a soup blending wand thingymajig. Pour resulting liquid onto flour and salt. Then mix up and knead or not. Not much faff at all. One thing that is useful is what bakers call autolyse. Sounds technical, but infact just involves leaving the dough alone for 20mins between mixing in the liquid and kneading. It just makes the dough less sticky and easier to work. I'm all for minimum faff also!

The liner goes in the basket, then the dough onto the liner. When you turn the risen loaf out, it comes out wearing the liner as a hat. You then peel the liner off the fragile dough/loaf and transfer it to your oven. I just use a bowl as the shaper and an old pillow case as liner. I also shake rye flour unto the liner bowl combo before putting the dough in. This is to discourage it from sticking to the liner. It can be quite fragile when its risen.

Yes this is me. Constantly dabbling with the sourdough and trying to work out what's going on. I think understanding the whole process is important then you can make sense of some of the recipes and make your own mind up. I'd Recommend Andrew Whitley's book 'Bread Matters' which is quite old now but I still refer to. Loads of good stuff online: theperfectloaf for lots of inspiration.

Loads of artistic folk on Instagram too - artisanbreadmonkey for example with beautiful scoring patterns if you like that sort of thing!

I usually refresh the starter overnight before starting a levain but for my most recent loaf I just mixed 2 week old starter out of the fridge with about 300g of flour and some warm water before I went to bed. Mixed, stretched, etc during the morning. 2nd proof just before lunchtime for about 90 min then baked just after lunch. Seemed to work as well as any other method.

It's all very temperature dependent and some people advocate long, slow, cold proofs for flavour. Depends if you're just wanting to eat it or are after the perfect flavour. Worth getting decent flour - we have Gilchesters near by and they have some lovely heritage stuff.

I had a lovely morning with a French Artisan Baker a couple of years ago:

/ https://paul4stones.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/the-artisan-baker/

Not too sure about the difference between folding and kneading but my guess is that kneading forms the glutens that allow the bread to rise without collapsing, quickly whereas folding over a few hours forms them slowly but allows you to leave it in the bowl and not get all sticky as it's a very high hydration dough it's quite tricky to knead and I gave it a go kneading once and found I kept adding loads of extra flour to stop it sticking to my hands and the work top.

I just use the linen liner to cover the basket when in the fridge if you use it in the basket you won't get the nice pattern on the bread.

I bake mine in a cast iron casserole dish...own brand le cruset type thing .

so many variations.....im sure ill get round to experimenting with a few of them, but for now im going to just copy my workmate who's a bit of an expert so he can hold my hand 🙂  still waiting for my basket and scraper through the post but was itching to get cracking so made my first loaf today.  it was bloody lovely!! (beginners luck) 😀

mixed 300g starter with 500g strong white flour and 240g water, 10g salt.  kneaded for 10 mins then did first prove for 2 hrs at room temp.  then as ive no basket and nothing oval shaped i used a round mixing bowl with a floured teatowel as liner.  just kept folding into the middle for a minute or so a la hobbshouse 'no-knead' method, and put in fridge for around 18hrs.  had to do it that long due to work commitments as i wanted to cook next morning, hence the fridge.

7am i preheated the oven with an old cadac plate as my pizza-stone for half hour at 250 degrees.  plopped the dough onto the plate, scored with sharp knife, tray of hot water underneath for steam, and cooked for around 30 mins et voila!  really pleased with it, lovely chewy yet crispy crust and soft bread!

ive just attempted to start another one today but went over with the water so stuck a bit more flour in but i think ive messed the amounts up a bit.  as i only just finished shaping this one at 6.30pm ive left it out for the night at room temp, see how it turns out.

one thing i can see myself getting a bit narked with is the cleaning up!!  hands covered in sticky dough, bowls covered in dough that seems to set before i can get them washed, soak em in hot water but still take ages to clean, then the scourers get glooped up too.  flour everywhere....... anyone got any tips on how to minimise the cleaning faffage?? 😀

Think it needs baking a bit longer but great crumb. I think I would do that amount for about 15-20 mins at the high temp then turn it down to about 200 for another 30 mins. Depends how you like your crust.

The thing I like about it is that it's just flour, water and salt and it makes bread. I love trying to work out what's going on and why it's not worked when it doesn't. You can always toast it!

Should have said it looks ace for a first go and tummy is rumbling.

Looks great. Try the full no knead recipe and use a couple of wet spoons to fold to avoid sticky hands. Soak the mixing bowl as soon as you move the dough to the proving basket.

I will give your recipe a go next loaf I do. It is much lower hydration with 100g less water for the same flour and starter amount. I guess this makes it easier to knead. I made a delicious hybrid loaf this week as was short on time I used 150g of starter and half a teaspoon of yeast and made a dark Rye loaf with black treacle and caraway seeds. 400g white to 200 Rye and proved for a few hours kneaded then into a tin till risen again. It was bloody lush.

I do, using (I think) Hugh FW recipe. My starter is fine in the fridge left untouched for 3 weeks; just replenish as normal and give it a day or 3 before use. I make a sponge in the mixer bowl, and also do first rise there too before 2nd rise in a silicone bowl. Sprinkle top with rice flour and slash. Oven to max and throw in a cup of boiling water to get some crust.

I have tried baking in a cast iron pot before, but it was no better.

Depending on time of year, it can take from 1 day to 3 ish to go from starter to mouth. I tend to leave the sponge bubbling overnight &/or day, 1st rise for a few hours then 2nd rise up to 8-10 hours.

Ought to try some variations. It does seem to freeze and then toast nicely, so infrequent baking can still give you some decent bread.

oh well, from hero to zero with my second attempt 😀  in my defence it was an experiment with timing.  thought id see how it went leaving the second prove overnight at room temperature, so around 12 hrs.  i think you can safely say it was a little er..... overproved.  in fact it was coming right over the top of the bowl.

it was a little interesing trying to peel it off the shower cap and teatowel 😀

i was heartened to see tho at it still cooked an eatable loaf, altho not the best looking splodge by any means.

so......now i know that 12 hrs room temp is too much and 18hrs fridge temp is spot on.  last night i prepared another one and left it in the fridge for 10 hrs then a couple at room temp and its come out better again.

tastes lovely and a chewy crust again, id say if anything tho the bread is a little moist, or stodgy still.  that mean i should have cooked it longer?  i go on the colour of the crust when i take it out, the pics above look about right to me.

Ha, welcome to the learning curve. I think your bread looks bloody lovely !  I've also had my fair share of near fur cups, but I've never had anything I haven't enjoyed eating.

Are you slashing it?

Are you slashing it?

yep, altho i nearly forgot with this last one.  had it in the oven for a couple of mins before i suddenly remembered!  was starting to get a skin on it and so wasnt a clean cut which maybe resulted in that slightly lop-sided shape.  ive used a knife so far but aim to try scissors and a razor blade too.

If you've got a meat thermometer then you can probe your loaf to see if it's cooked through. I think it should read at least 93 degrees when it's done.

I never had much luck slashing with knife /razor blades so use some scissors from a hair clipper set. They aren't anything special, but seem to be easier for me. Lopsided = freeform = all good!

no i dont have a meat thermometer, looks like another purchase coming up 😀  and ill be trying scissors next i think.

thanks

Try a sharp bread knife for slashing. Like cutting the skin of a tomato a serrated edge is easier. Tried to post a pic of my bread from yesterday but cannot get it to work on this new forum 🙁

for pics, its easier now to just right click and 'copy image', then paste directly into the text box rather than use tags.

Incidentally, I also started making soudough a few weeks ago. This is one I make last week - a mix of wheat and rye flours and baked inside a le creuset pan, which seemed to work quite well. I forgot to cut the top with a knife tho, so it was just cracked naturally.

Interesting episode of the Food Programme here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09vz6r3

Jamz can't do the pic thing either. I am on phone not desk top and use Flickr to get source code. I tried copying the code and pasting into the image box but it doesn't work anymore.

I've just started also, bought my sourdough starter on Ebay for £3. Bake a loaf Saturday and Sunday using Hugh FW method but halving the quantities. His method seems to be make a giant starter (sponge) with all the water and half the flour overnight. Then add the rest of the flour and salt and knead and prove. Bread is improving but still better than most shop bought loves- down side is I'm eating tons of it.

Things I've been told and have helped, you know the starter is ready if a teaspoon of it floats in a glass of water, if it sinks feed again and leave somewhere warm like a sunny windowsill. Use a thermometer  it should be 96C in the centre when cooked, it seems to be hard to overcook so if in doubt leave in oven for a bit longer.

Finally I bought a silicone bowl in Lakeland for £9 which you make, prove & bake in drastically reducing washing up.

https://flic.kr/p/25qxG97 Can't for the life of me get pictures to work from Flickr. I followed your recipe Sadexpunk and it came out great. Only thing I changed was added black sesame seeds and cooked for 40 mins.

looks good myti!  what was the inside like?

well im getting consistent results now, my basket was delivered a few days ago and this is the result of the first one proved in it.

as theyre pretty consistent im going to experiment with the next few i think.  i read somewhere that to get a more sour taste then use less starter and prove for longer.  dont know if ill notice any difference but im giving it a go.  this one ive just used half the starter and kept all other measurements the same.  this had a noticeable difference on the dough, far drier to work with.  a quick google on how to work out hydration suggests my original recipe is around 60%, using half the starter knocks it down to around 55%.  i always prefer to prove in the fridge anyway as its constant, so this time im leaving it in an extra day! 😀

checked it this morning and its still nowhere near the top of the basket so im going with it, ill leave it til tomorrow morning and cook it then, itll mean itll have had a second prove of around 38 hrs.

next experiments will probably be an original recipe but try a 'no knead' method, then move onto experiments with wholemeal and rye flour.

ill report back tomorrow when this ones done.

well i think this one will have to go down as a 'fail', even though it still tastes scrummy.

38hrs or so in the fridge, dough hadnt risen above an 18hr prove really.  cut the top with scissors and plopped it on the 'stone', same method as all the others.  it didnt rise as much as the others so im guessing the 38hrs was an overprove.  it did however break through along the side rather than the scissors as you can see, so the scissors method hasnt worked for me on 2 occasions now.  ill try a razor blade next.

as i said before, it was still as tasty and chewy as before, but as you can see from the close-up, yes theres a few big holes but the rest of it is pretty stodgy compared to earlier efforts.  as i changed two things this time (less starter and longer prove) its hard to gauge which caused it but im guessing proving it for too long.

i havent got a very good palate for taste anyway, but i dont notice any increase in 'sourness' from the changes.  always worth experimenting anyway.

It's so satisfying playing about with bread isn't it! Fulfils my creative side I think. The inside didn't have many big holes like yours. Some around 1cm and then lots of smaller holes throughout so a really nice texture and though not as cool looking as cool I do prefer the smaller holes for spreading butter etc and it not all going through. I'm about to do another using your method and some local flour I bought in a market that says it's a blend ideal for sourdough so will see how that comes out.

Re slashing have you tried bread knive yet? I don't always slash mine and actually I think the way it splits naturally like in your pic looks awesome.

Going to try sourdough pizza for the first time at some point over this long weekend so will report back how that goes.

Re slashing have you tried bread knive yet? I don’t always slash mine and actually I think the way it splits naturally like in your pic looks awesome.

yep, tried the knife to start with and it works well enough.  was watching a lass at work cut hers today, she cuts deeper than me and hers still burst out from the side too.  i dont like it, i prefer it to burst where i want it to, and maybe even get round to doing patterns eventually 🙂

Going to try sourdough pizza for the first time at some point over this long weekend so will report back how that goes.

without googling away, you got a reecipe/method for that?  been toying with building a pizza oven but too much faff and expense i think, so interested in good, home-made jobbies.

Not yet. Going to Google or ask on UK fermenting friends. There's a whole world of fermented delights out there! My aunt just texted me to see if I want some kefir grains so looks like I'll be giving that a try next.

sadexpunk  - presumably you've got some DE razor blades left - I use one of those for slashing 😉

I rarely get a cut to open up though, certainly not like some of the fancy ones you see. I'm not sure if that's due to the activity of the loaf or the stage of the proof. Certainly I've had more success with a shorter proof and a longer build/bulk ferment.

View this post on Instagram

https://flic.kr/p/25WJdHc

Your method again Sadexpunk. Finding it simpler to do on the weekend as can start it early eve on Sat and bake Sunday morning as it's lower hydration it's easy to handle so kneading is not messy. Got pretty rough with the bread knife and had good results.

https://flic.kr/p/25SZRTQ

looking good mate, i assume youre using a tin?  any pics of the crumb when its been cut?

ive done a couple of 50/50 loaves which have come out reasonably well too, nowt special.  still experimenting but the increase in wholemeal meant i tried 40g more water.  i gauge whether thats about right by the texture of the dough to be kneaded from the off.

i also tried 'autolysing' which was tough, not sure if i did it right.  just mixed flour and water and left for an hour before adding starter and salt but it was really tough to work in the starter after an hour on the side.  not sure whetehr an autolyse means just adding salt later rather than salt/starter, ill have to have a read-up.

Autolyse is just leaving the salt out as as salt inhibits the starter a bit. That one was a tin for a change and don't know what the crumb is like as not cut it yet but will do for breakie tomorrow.

another experiment another splat! 😀

this time i thought id experiment with spelt flour.  my mate said he uses 10% but i thought i just wouldnt be able to tell the difference, so i went all-in at 100% organic white spelt.  was a right soggy dough so added a bit more flour but it just never firmed up.  was committed by then so had to just empty into the proving basket and leave overnight.  i knew it was going to be sh1te when it was still soggy in the morning but thought sod it, whats the worst that can happen!  er.......

anyone for a finger of bread? 😀

id like to understand more about it so i can learn from the mistakes.  not sure what ive learnt from that really other than dont use 100% spelt, or use a La Cloche or baking tin for the soggier doughs......

im presently experimenting with a 'no-knead' 50/50 white/wholemeal mix using less starter (100g).  ive folded it a few times over the last 3 hrs or so, ill mebbes give it another fold in a bit and stick it in the fridge overnight before working out what to do with it tomorrow.  its still very sticky so im a bit loathe to stick it in the basket/liner in case it just sticks to it like the 'spelt splat' 😀

learning curve innit........

Ah well sure it still tastes good. You can do 100% spelt but it will always be denser as it is lower gluten so can't rise as high. Probably better to do it in a tin to give it some support.

When I do my high hydration no knead loaf it always sticks in the banaton a bit but always puffs back up when in the oven. Someone told me dampen the banaton then rub in corn flour then normal flour to line it and someone else suggested lining with cling film so you can lift it out.

clingfilms not a bad shout.  wonder why theyre sold with a linen liner tho if its that easy just to bob a bit of clingfilm in the basket......

I use the autolyse method for normal yeast-based loaves, as I find it gives me a really consistent result (and is dead easy too) but haven't tried it for sourdough before.

I usually give it around half an hour to sit and do it's thing under a plastic bag cover, then chuck in the salt, then the yeast, minute or two kneading to bring it all together, then a proving cycle based on how warm the utility room is before baking.

Inspired by this thread, I got a new starter together a few weeks ago and it's doing pretty nicely. Determined to keep an eye on it this time and not let it die through inattention! My issue has always been that I'm the only one in the house that likes sourdough bread, so I'd bake a loaf and half of it would go to waste so I'd leave off making another one. This time round, I've sliced the loaf up a few hours after taking it out of the oven then put it in the freezer. Much better idea.

Also If you have some left over just leave it out to dry then keep it for bread crumbs. It's makes awesome bread crumbs for macaroni cheese and never seems to go mouldy.

Sadexpunk I only use the liner to cover the top of the banaton I wouldn't have thought to put the dough in it as then you wouldn't get the pattern from the basket on the bread.

you still get a pattern, maybe not as pronounced.  just tried the clingfilm, it was worse if anything.  floured it but the dough still stuck to it.

i think theres plenty of people who do both with the liner, altho in most of the vids ive been watching the dough goes in a liner and its covered with a showercap or suchlike.

im maybe going to try this 50/50 jobbie tomorrow, bet mine doesnt look like his tho 😀

think its time for an update.  ive experimented more than i maybe should, had a few pancakes, but now have a method that im happy with and will lead to experimenting more.  ive done a lot of reading, feel i understand the process a lot more now and yesterday baked a cracking loaf on intuiton and feel alone rather than relying on  timing.

one thing ive learnt is to 'treat your loaf like a lady' 😀 the more it rips or sticks to the side of the bowl when emptying, the worse itll turn out.  so i dont knead any more either, which also suits using wholewheat or rye.  i do however develop the gluten for 10 mins or so using this method.

http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-mix-wet-dough/

i dont think itd work with my original recipe as the dough does need to be wetter, but that suits me.  ive had a go with really high hydration and not been skilful enough to shape it adequately, and this method suits the higher water content.  so....... 80/20% white/wholewheat, 10 minutes of gently rolling it about as in the video, empty it into a very lightly oiled bowl and then every half hour do 4 stretch and folds (north south east west) then repeat but the doughs a lot tighter so it hardly stretches.  cover it and do same half hour later.  probably did around 4 stretch and folds over 2 or 3 hours.  each time wetting my hand before er.... inserting, so it slides down the side of the bowl easier, and doesnt rip the dough from the side.

i then emptied onto floured surface to shape into 'batard', and shaped it using this method....

shaping starts around 5 min 30 sec if you cant be bothered watching whole vid.  and whereas usually id then stick it in the fridge overnight, and im sure thatd be fine, i just prodded it every now and then and when i felt it was proved fine, baked it.  eh voila!

got to say, this has been the best loaf ive ever done, and im pleased with the rise as the more wholewheat you use, the harder it is to get an airy loaf apparently.

so, now ive had success with it, ill bake a few more and then gradually try introducing a bit more water, a bit more wholewheat or spelt, see how we go.

ive also used the same dough for homemade pizzas, but dont really do a final prove on the dough.  same method of rolling the dough then stretch and folds, then cut into balls, freeze some, stick a couple in the fridge, half hour before making pizza take it out and away we go.

good this bread making lark innit 🙂  must admit after a few pancakes i was starting to think ahhhh bollocks to it but ive got my mojo back again for now 😀

EDIT:  most frustrating thing at present is that the bread doesnt last long before starting to go stale.  maybe a day?  i cover with a teatowel and stick in the bread bin, but next day its noticeably harder.  anyone do anything different thatd help with this?

Got to say that loaf looks delicious! I've got no experience of loafing but feel I can help with this:

but next day its noticeably harder.  anyone do anything different thatd help with this?

Eat it faster. HTH

Wow looks great.

I've been quite busy since the nice weather so haven't put much effort into mantaining my starter and have just done a few rather rushed loaves.

This mornings was rather flat as I'd started it yesterday lunchtime and then ended up at the pub till past midnight so it was very over proved and was trying 50% wholemeal spelt too.

I will study those vids when I get a chance a maybe try your methods next weekend.

Re going stale I keep mine in.a plastic bag but also I only really find homemade sourdough is good as toast unless it's only a few hours old.

EDIT: most frustrating thing at present is that the bread doesnt last long before starting to go stale. maybe a day? i cover with a teatowel and stick in the bread bin, but next day its noticeably harder. anyone do anything different thatd help with this?

That's just how long fresh bread lasts. I just slice and freeze, fresher the better when doing so. A slice of bread defrosts very quickly.

aye, slice and freeze is a good shout, i think i read somewhere that plastic bags are bad for it and make it sweat?

had another good loaf today, 20% wholewheat rye.  it rose more than any of my other loaves, it was touching the roof of the oven!  not sure about the crumb tho, looks ok, some good holes, but im trying to educate myself on the signs of underproving, overproving and fermentation.

tastes great tho which is the main thing 😀

Yum. My flat half spelt loaf was really tasty this morning. Don't find they go sweaty just stops it going too dry and I only loosely wrap it in the bag.

I have been told to go straight from fridge to oven for more oven spring which I've not tried tried so fingers crossed for a pretty loaf at the weekend.

What weights are you using now?

yep, ive also been told it rises better from the fridge.  most of my previous loaves have been proved overnight in the fridge, plus i find it gives a better margin for error.  these last few were done 'on the day' as firstly my family were impatient, and secondly i thought it may make me more 'skilful' if i really did try and find the optimal prove from a finger prod rather than just 'its had a night in the fridge itll be reet' and probably being somewhere near.  like i said, bigger margin for error.....

as for weights, as i said before, i tried really wet dough and struggled, these were a compromise.  the one from the other day with the pizza was 450g allinsons strong white, 50g wholewheat, 300g 50/50 starter, 270g water and 10g salt.

this one above was 400g allinsons strong white, 100g wholewheat rye, 280g water, 300 starter, 10g salt.

so its always 300g starter and 10g salt, the variables are however i decide to make up my 500g flour, and trying to get away with as much water as poss.  started at 250g, now im on 280 as its easier to do that 'rubaud mix ^^^' with wetter dough.  half hourly stretch and folds, and shaping as per that video too ^^^.

Ok great all your measurements are the same as mine but I normally do 340g of water with that so will try less water and see if I can get a better result. If it comes out like yours I can't see why you would go higher hydration.

340g water, wow!  that seems like a very wet dough.  id have thought if you can shape it ok and it holds together itd be great, i think the higher the water the 'airier' the dough but theres no way i could do that at my beginner stage.  maybe easier also if you use a dutch oven to help it keep its shape whilst baking but id be interested to see if you can get a good loaf with that much water.  something for me to aspire to 🙂

also im told your starter needs to be spot on for good rise.  i have one at home and one at work, the one at home bubbles up waaaaay more than the other so i may bin that and make another from the good one.

let me know how you get on with the mixing and folding methods ^^^