I'd be interested to hear what they're like to live with in comparison to gas centrally heated radiators.
I'm looking at a property that has a gas and electric supply with an ancient warm air heater ducting to every room.
It needs total renovation including a heating system, and my son's an electrician who's installed the electric heaters but not had to live with them.
He routinely installs Rointe heaters, other recommendations welcome.
Thoughts appreciated, ta
It'll totally depend on how well insulated it is. A friend has fully electric heating and it's fine as they have very high levels of insulation. In our old house it'd be on all day and still not get up to temperature
I have a place that's entirely heated by electricity, but, being just wall mounted panel heaters, it's not exactly modern!
Electric is around 100% efficient supposedly but it's still very expensive compared to gas or oil. If you want better then you're looking at either either air to air, or air to water heat pump.
That said it's easy to fit and control/automate.
As far as I'm aware all electric heaters are just as efficient as each other and the rest is just marketing.
They're ok. Ours are not modern as such but not 40 years old either
They're more expensive than gas and our living room ones seem to give out more heat when you don't want it than when you do.
Bedroom ones are more controlled.
Overall I wouldn't let them completely decide on buying or not, but they're not as good as gas imo
I've lived in a few places with only electric storage heaters on an economy 7 type tariff.
It was great for when you get up through the night or early as it's was nice and warm (especially when the kids were tiny), but no use if you started feeling the cold on a late afternoon/evening in the winter when they were running down. Good for getting clothes dry with them giving out heat most of the day and night.
Also a pain in spring/autumn when you might have them off it it was a warm spell but then didn't put them back on when there was a cold spell.
I've said that when our boiler goes in the house we're in now id seriously think about getting them in instead of a new gas boiler, but I guess it's be a bigger job than I'm expecting with the wiring that'd be needed.
Not for a long time.
However - start with some basic physics and look at this
https://www.nottenergy.com/advice-and-tools/project-energy-cost-comparison
It's not perfect (like the assumed cost of wood appears to be almost garage forecourt prices) but a good starting point.
Electric heating is effectively 100% efficient (at generating heat - maybe not putting the heating where you need it) regardless of model and type whilst old gas can be very inefficient in comparison to a modern condenser boiler and make a huge difference. But this cost per kWh of heat is a lot in comparison to gas....unless you are buying it at a very low tariff at night and storing the heat (or using the electricity to run a heat pump to massively increase the efficiency).
Insulation doesn't make a difference to the comparison to gas, it just makes the extra more bearable as both sources would need less so the number becomes less scary. If it was 4 times more expensive in comparison to say a good efficient gas condenser boiler and the house was badly insulated and even the gas cost was £10 a day, that's £30 extra a day with leccy. If it was well insulated and the gas would only be £2 a day then 'only' £6 more a day for leccy is not quite so scary.
If there is warm air ducting, is there mileage in an air to air heat pump feeding that system. How a lot of North Americans heat their homes.
@minus I think that's what it's got currently, all be it a very old system. It has floor and wall vents in all rooms. Without ripping it all apart I'd not know the condition of the ducting.
I guess I should also add - it'd need electric hot water heating too - I'd only use has for the stove top. I do like the on demand hot water of a combi boiler, is this replicable electrically?
I guess I should also add - it'd need electric hot water heating too - I'd only use has for the stove top. I do like the on demand hot water of a combi boiler, is this replicable electrically?
Which would be daft as induction is generally better/more controllable and doesn't pump fumes into you house.
As above - electric heaters are 100% efficient, but electricity is roughly 3x the price of gas. A gas boiler is about 80% efficient. Condensing mode takes that up to 90%/92% BUT most boilers are badly set up - if you can see a plume coming from your vent my understanding is it's not condensing. They need a low water temperature for condensing mode and most central heating is set up at too high a temp. (ours is set up for super low underfloor heating temperatures but still doesn't condense when it's heating water)
The way to reduce electric heating costs is a heat pump which should, if set up properly, result in lower costs than gas. (again, depends on flow temps - set up badly can cost more).
Electric hot water heating again - heat pump. Or 'on demand' - like an electric shower - but to serve more than one tap.
if you can see a plume coming from your vent my understanding is it's not condensing.
Off topic, but not sure this is correct. The plume is water vapour - i.e. the steam (invisible) has been cooled internally in the heat exchanger harvesting back the heat and reducing relatively cool water vapour. If it's chuffing cold outside it'll still be warmer than the air it's been pushed into as it'll never be 100% efficient at harvesting all the energy in it. Or something.
Getting hot water on demand to the same level as a combo isn’t that practical electrically. The linked heater has the same sort of output as an electric shower and would presumably perform slightly worse once loses through the pipes between it and the shower were accounted for.
The way to reduce electric heating costs is a heat pump which should, if set up properly, result in lower costs than gas. (again, depends on flow temps - set up badly can cost more).
Isn't that very much dependent on the property being well insulated ?
The way to reduce electric heating costs is a heat pump which should, if set up properly, result in lower costs than gas. (again, depends on flow temps - set up badly can cost more).
Isn't that very much dependent on the property being well insulated?
It shouldn't be - the house needs the same output of heat whether it comes via a gas boiler or an electric heat pump.
According to Google -
Gas: current average unit rate for gas is around 6.24 pence per kWh. (=7.3p real cost based on 85% efficiency). (Real world efficiency of boilers in this 2009 study was about 85%)
Electricity: average unit rate for electricity is around 24.5 pence per kWh.
That means a heat pump would need a COP of 3.3 to produce the same amount of heat for the same price. Heat Geek are getting well above that for most of their installs, irrespective of the age of the property - https://www.heatgeek.com/the-secret-to-high-heat-pump-efficiencies/
But you can't treat a heat pump like a gas boiler - you need radiators sized so they can run at low flow temperatures, and that works better if a house is reasonably well insulated and retains more of the heat input. A really cold uninsulated house where the current heating strategy is to have very high temp radiators running only when you're in a room, and that room gets cold again the moment they go off, is going to struggle. But that house is going to have expensive heating bills anyway (and not be comfortable to live in).
if you can see a plume coming from your vent my understanding is it's not condensing.
Off topic, but not sure this is correct. The plume is water vapour - i.e. the steam (invisible) has been cooled internally in the heat exchanger harvesting back the heat and reducing relatively cool water vapour. If it's chuffing cold outside it'll still be warmer than the air it's been pushed into as it'll never be 100% efficient at harvesting all the energy in it. Or something.
yes, I think you're right. But you should get much less plume, and less often, when it's running efficiently. I look out and can see our boiler either doing very little work (but definitely producing very little steam) when other houses around are pumping out a massive dense plume.
I'd only use gas for the stove top.
Use electric for cooking (induction is best), disconnect your gas supply, and save £100/ year standing charges.
I'd only use gas for the stove top.
Use electric for cooking (induction is best), disconnect your gas supply, and save £100/ year standing charges.
and get rid of the most significant cause of indoor pollutants after a wood burner.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/oct/28/pollutants-from-gas-stoves-kill-40000-europeans-each-year-report-finds?
Qwerty - when you say ‘ancient’, when was the house built? We have warm air heating and it’s very good (Johnson and Starley furnace). The house is warm in minutes and maintains temperature way better than radiator systems I’ve had in the past. The house and ducting has been designed symbiotically though and so the balance of airflow around the place is pretty good. It also has an electrostatic filter that keeps the air very clean.
It’s not especially efficient I’ll give you that, and over there on the ASHP thread I’m wondering about fitting ducted aircon (like you get in offices over here). I’m keen because the ducting is already there and ducted systems are relatively cheap (14kw system - one outside and one inside unit is about £3.5-4.5k, although you need a properly qualified fitter)
so before you rip it out, just have a think. Happy to assist in the DMs if you have questions.
edit: by ‘not especially efficient’ I mean that it’s not condensing (although I think condensing units are made now) and mine has a two pilot lights - one for the warm air side and one for the water side. Modern version has electric ignition. My unit was replaced in 2012 and the newer models were available at the time, but the fitter said they were so new he felt he couldn’t recommend them as he had no knowledge of longevity.
Unless your home is really well insulated, I'd avoid electric, just too expensive to run, even on Economy 7. Same for ASHP, unless you want a 2nd pump and twice the number of already increased sized radiators (and install cost, already a multiple of a gas system).
Electric heaters are 100% efficient, but a heat pump can be 3-500% efficient, so it's an absolute no brainer. Don't buy normal electric heaters unless you like paying 5x as much for the same amount of heat.
The point about insulation is where people are switching from gas: because electricity is 3x the price of gas you need your heat pump to be over 300% efficient, and with poor insulation it might not be.
Heat pumps come in multiple varieties - you can have ones that heat water for radiators like a gas boiler, or you can have ones that blow hot air. It might be ok to use one of these for your air ducts, I'm not sure.
if you can see a plume coming from your vent my understanding is it's not condensing
No it's not correct. A gas boiler can't condense all the water vapour, so some still escapes to create steam outside.
Usage costs of central heating must surely be cheaper.
Our rental flat has storage heaters in three rooms, no gas supply. During winter, unless sub zero outside, we rarely have all three charging overnight. Just two of us, we've just fixed with Scottish Power for ~£140pcm.
Can't edit my last post, forgot to add that we turn the electric immersion heater on for ~45mins each night just before E7 ends at 0730 BST. Better half is made of asbestos and puts immersion on again for her late afternoon baths, to me the evening temperature for washing up is fine from just the overnight blast.
I fitted modern euro-20 compliant Dimplex quantum storage heaters in my old flat in place of the old turn the input/output dial ones, triple glazed it, loft insulation and a new unvented water cylinder, All on economy 7. Costs stayed the same but I was warm when I wanted to be and had hot water. It got expensive when the E7 tariffs didn’t change and those for electric charging did, it’s better now with the octopus tarif that has a mid afternoon top-up. If I still lived there I would definitely try for a heat pump if possible but what I did was the best available at the time.
I would only entertain fitting storage heaters now if the property was super insulated as they don’t offer the multiplier efficiency of a heat pump.
We heat our house with reverse cycle air conditioning split systems and it’s pretty effective for most of the year. On really cold and windy nights we also run a 50kw combustion heater. I’m hoping this year we will use the heater less as I’ve re roofed with a new under blanket and I’ve also been busy fitting new draft excluders to windows and doors. The running costs are very good at around 70 quid a month including car charging and hot water. On the flip side, the house is rarely proper warm and it’s not the nicest heat - a bit blowy whilst being too hot at head height abd too cool at floor level. Tbh, I miss radiators, thick walls and double glazing!
I live in an old flat with uninsulated cavity walls and high ceilings (3.6m). We do have double glazing but are on the ground floor with an unheated basement below. I did drop a few ceiling so we could re-wire and they are insulated with about 200mm of acoustic insulation.
my heat pump has been in a year this week and my COP for the year on heating is 5.6. Now that is from the manufacturers app, but even if it is 5 we are well below running costs for gas. Especially as we use Octopus Cosy and we have averaged 19p/kW for our electricity over a year too.
Hot water COP is 4.4 which is very respectable especially as we overheat the water to 57 deg. C as the cylinder is a touch small, and it works out that we only heat the water in the cheap periods mostly.
we are far from a modern well insulated property but have a very efficient system, I would also add the property is more comfortable as it just ticks along and everything stays a steady temperature.
Heat Geek isn’t the only way of getting a good install there are plenty of good companies around but also a lot of bad ones.
