[Closed] Anyone heard of a primary school "gifted and talented programme"?

It's a label that will stay with them through school and will mean that class teachers should know to push them right from the off when they meet them.

Beyond that there may be the occasional extra curricular activity they get invited to because they are on the G+T register.. for example I run extension maths sessions for primary schools in the county (they send around 6 of their brightest mathematicians from years 5 and 6 on the run up to SATs for some extra level 6 maths lessons) at our secondary school. English and Science dept's run some of these days too.

Really depends on what the school choose to do extra for these pupils, but in the same way low ability pupils get extra support it will mean they get other opportunities to have their learning extended.

Clearly it's for parental oneupmanship. Well done, your kids are great.

the G+T register

is that what they call the staff room now 😆

[img] [/img]

Aye my boy was put on it for his IT skills, its a particularly good school so may not be typical but for him it was excellent. He went to organised events on some weekends to work with others who were more able than usual lessons accounted for, had options to enter regional competitions etc, generally stretching him in an area he had shown promise in. When he moved up to high school it was taken account of and so has continued, he's 14 now but goes to the 6th form computer club and extra study lessons, and works on the same project work as the students in these classes so the whole episode really has bettered him. More important, before anyone thinks 'pushy parent', he has loved every minute of it. In fact when teachers changed and his extra support dropped off, it was him who asked us to speak to the school to get the extra work and support back in place. Totally recommended but I do believe a lot is down to us being lucky and having two excellent schools near. I would ask the school what the programme looks like as most the events will be arranged well in advance.

It happened to my kids too, they got taken out of some lessons to do some higher level extension works. Usually top 10% ability group. It used to be a formal programme with separate funding, but thought that stopped years ago, some schools have kept the name for "extension" type work. My youngest is in Y7 now so I don't know what's happening in primaries now. Certainly helped them reduce boredom when standard lessons weren't stretching them, and gave me less of an excuse to give the school "catch-up weeks", when I would take my crew away for a cheap holiday while the others tried to catch up. 😉

a device to keep the chattering middle class parents playing one-upmanship at the school gates?

or on internet forums?

So, our two kids came back from school with letters saying that they had each been identified as "gifted and talented"

😉 (I'm just bitter that my Y2 kid hasn't got one 😈 )

Thanks for the replies - what I was hoping to hear but wasn't sure whether it would be carried on when older one goes to secondary in September.

my kids are on it

A pointless thing for middle class as if schools need to spend their precious resources on those who are not struggling

The odd meeting where they say how to push them and the odd extra curriculum activity

Nothing really

Junkyard - yet you open by telling everyone your kids are 'on it'.

Pretty well much sums it up.

Hah! If they'd had this in my day I'd have been straight on the Lazy Little Sod register!

Daughter starts school in September. I shall start lobbying forthwith.

Good stuff MoreCash!

as if schools need to spend their precious resources on those who are not struggling

This really hacks me off. School, the education system, life, isn't about just doing enough to get by. Your kids need to be pushed to reach their maximum potential, just as those who are struggling need extra support. They deserve their share as much as anyone else. Not just to ensure they reach their potential, but 11 or 13 years at school where you can just drift along will be a distinctly boring time.

In this country we need to recognise this and not be embarrassed by it. If the country's best athletes can be picked out at an early age and put on Olympic development programs, why can't we do it for the gifted and talented academics too.

theotherjonv ....... thats why its there!

Gifted? At year 2?

Nothing like the same as recognising a natural athelete when much older than that.

yet you open by telling everyone your kids are 'on it'*.

I wish i had just turned up to have a dig at folk instead, even the ones who agree with me

*FFS Given what I post on here is it not obvious my kids would be bright 8)

Sorry, I'll bow out, had too many glasses of wine.

How is their spelling?

Not every school has it. My primary didn't and I felt a little aggrieved when I got into the local grammar school and was almost left behind through no fault of my own. Turned out ok in the end though.

As an aside, this is the sort of thing that should be encouraged, as per theotherjonv's post above:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-26450512

[s]I re read that post 50 times before pressing send :D[/s]

As good as your kids straw men 😛

🙂

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/an-internet-post-written-for-stw#post-5829610

G&T is there to make middle class parents send their kids to comprehensives to keep a balance in the school to make sure the teachers don't go mad teaching low ability all the time. It turns the kids into cocky little sh*its and is very divisive to other kids. Its not subject specific, is difficult to get onto for late bloomers and causes them to miss loads of normal lessons on trips. At least it is in my school...

As usual plenty of politically motivated cobblers here. It gives those who are good a chance.
Good idea and much more valuable than throwing money at no hopers.

That is not politically motivated?
What does give them a chance mean? They already have the same chance as everyone else and are thriving....its not like they can sit GCSE early and get a degree by 16 so it achieves very little IMHO.

In school you get a cross section from those who are struggling to read and grasp the basics { Pe teachers 😉 ] to those who are thriving.
Those who thrive will thrive without any additional resources being thrown at them - its almost like they are naturally gifted and talented.

Those who struggle will need more help.

We can choose which group we think needs to have the teachers limited time thrown at them and additional attention devoted to them and who has most to gain from it and what society wants from education.

I would rather choose to help those who are struggling just as I think doctors should devote their time to the ill, poor diet, non exercising cohort rather than dedicate their time to the healthy.

Everyone's kids are super intelligent aren't they..?

I would rather choose to help those who are struggling just as I think doctors should devote their time to the ill, poor diet, non exercising cohort rather than dedicate their time to the healthy

Can't disagree with this, but it isn't the same thing because someone 'healthy' has already reached the threshold where to all intents and purposes you don't need to be any healthier.

i don't think you can say the same about intelligence, particularly in the context of children. They need to be stretched to make sure they reach their potential, just as much as underperformers need support to improve. Being 'just enough' intelligent doesn't benefit them or wider society.

My issue is that we don't seem to recognize this or, if we do, we feel embarrassed by it. Being good is something to be celebrated, not 'oh shucks, it was nothing' about.

Schools should work to maximise the potential of all students, not just those who are on or below the line when it comes to natural ability or progress.

It is very easy to bore the arse off a bright kid by making them sit through another lesson recapping topics they have already mastered for the benefit of children who are learning on the normal curve or underneath it.

I don't think you have to dress it up as anything special ('gifted and talented'), just stream the kids sensibly and teach at their level.

My kid's school was nobbled by Ofsted for not doing enough for children who were exceeding national expectations, they seem to have raised their game a bit now.

My lad was put on it in year 1 for his reading which was 3-4 years ahead.

Junkyard:
A pointless thing for middle class as if schools need to spend their precious resources on those who are not struggling

This rings true for me. Unfortunately our school had no head teacher for three years and everything got a bit rudderless and the school really went downhill. This was largely at the expense of the kids who sat outside the norm, one way or the other.

We had to move schools in the end, because it's one thing when your kid isn't being extended in their work, but it's entirely another when they start going backwards because of it.

BTW, on that subject, kid's development is not linear anyway, but in some cases it's also normal for kids to come off the Gifted and Talented register too.

For more reading on Gifted and Talented, and stuff you can do to help out, we were given contacts here:

[url= http://www.potentialplusuk.org/ ]PotentialPlus[/url]

[url= http://www.tomorrowsachievers.co.uk/ ]TomorrowsAchievers[/url]

Lastly, and from some tough experience, having gifted children isn't always a picnic. In fact having a gifted or talented kid is also having a kid with Special Needs.

Quite often there will be asynchronous development of some aspects - heightened emotion and sensitivity and,in some documented cases, even a higher sensitivity to physical pain.

Excerpt here from Silverman, 1997 which really resonated in our case:

To be gifted is to be vulnerable. To have the mental maturity of a 14-year-old, and the physical maturity of an 8-year-old poses a unique set of challenges analogous to those faced by a child with a 14-year-old body and an 8-year-old mind. Parenting a child with large
discrepancies in either direction is equally challenging; even moderate discrepancies can be daunting

We found loads of good stuff in that paper for us:

[url= http://positivedisintegration.com/Silverman1997.pdf ]Silverman, 1997 paper.[/url]

In my son's case, his physical stuff lagged his mental, and though he's had a decent catchup in the last year or so, his fine motor skills still lack some precision. Also, his emotional development is so far ahead of his schoolmates that he had real trouble finding (and keeping) friends. They didn't "get" him for a long time - a bit of a weird kid, didn't like footy or sport, always reading and making jokes they didn't understand, and it's only really been recently (and at the new school) that he's made some proper mates.

Anyway, didn't mean to ramble on. Not all gifted kids have the downside we had, and best of British to you and for your kids in their journey.

My son is on it and unlike Junky, I'm pretty proud of that.

I think it's great - he gets to go and do sciency stuff that he loves at the school he'll be going to next year.
He's also on it for sports, which is brilliant cos it's something that never would've happened to me!

Nice to be bumped up for being a high achiever and briefly separated from the thickos 😉

I do no think it is anything like special needs at all. G & T are outliers within the range of normal special needs are outliers outside the range of normal and will likely always remain there.

I hate the use of the word normal here so forgive me

Able and thriving is not in any sense a disability or a special need.

Have they done any actual research that shows G & T have more emotional difficulties or whatever than the norm?

I cannot copy from you article but it seems like waffle to me - Max and the golf ball could be written about any child. What child does not do stupid things they cannot explain?

as for saying you need to adapt your parenting to the child...no shit sherlock.
EDIT:

My son is on it and unlike Junky, I'm pretty proud of that.

I dont talk like this to them 😉
TBH Had they worked hard rather than just been gifted i would feel proud. its like being proud because your kid is the tallest in their class. they dont do much to achieve it. My kids try as hard as any other kid they are just genetically* lucky

As they age they may well do things where the natural talent is matched by application. then i can feel pride for then they will have achieved something.

* OK i may well be laying myself open to some mockery here 😉

Maybe it's a bit beyond you, Junky... 😉

😀

Perhaps I have special needs and I just dont fit in and struggle to get on with [s]morons[/s] normal folk 😉

FWIW I have never been against academic streaming and if they took all the G & T and put them in a school I would have no issue with this but what we have currently is nothing like that and just a bit Mleh

TBH Had they worked hard rather than just been gifted i would feel proud. its like being proud because your kid is the tallest in their class. they dont do much to achieve it. My kids try as hard as any other kid they are just genetically* lucky

Totally agree with this, btw...

EDIT: And, I should have written "can sometimes be like having a kid with Special Needs." In our case, it is.

mattsccm - Member

As usual plenty of politically motivated cobblers here. It gives those who are good a chance.
Good idea and much more valuable than throwing money at no hopers.

😀

My eldest was put on "the list" whilst at primary school, he was pushed that little bit harder and had an evening maths session at the local high school with kids of similar abilities from the surrounding primary schools. He loved it, the greasy little swot.

He's in year 9 now and choosing his options, taking his maths GCSE a year early and a further maths/statistics qualification the year after.

From reading above I guess it depends on how each individual school tackles it really. For my son it's worked out very well.

Nursery say my sons special, is that similar?

maccruiskeen - Member
the G+T register
is that what they call the staff room now

Where can I get one of those glasses??? Married to a teacher with a birthday coming up...

[i]TBH Had they worked hard rather than just been gifted i would feel proud. its like being proud because your kid is the tallest in their class. they dont do much to achieve it. My kids try as hard as any other kid they are just genetically* lucky[/i]

Totally disagree. Sounds just like the PC way to talk about stuff - just like the old non-competitive sports rubbish that was attempted a few years ago.
If they don't try hard, then their gift or talent won't show will it?

It's called differentiation: Recognising pupil's individual needs, whenever they are struggling or whenever they need their full potential encouraging. I'm sure no-one would be happy with the idea that everyone should be taught the same...?

I love the assumptions this is all about middle class parents: G&T programmes are based on ability not who your parents are and it's often a way to recognise innate ability and application, allowing pupils from families that have no experience of tertiary education to aspire to and access higher education.

It also has a real impact on pupils individual development. Often talented pupils become bored by classes which they find too easy to access. Bored students become badly behaved students, especially as they see the gaps in the system much more readily! Also, if you're in a school with somewhat of an anti-academic culture, then G&T time can be a bit of a haven for bright, marginalised, studious kids. (Who may also have other social/learning needs)

The idea that intelligence mitigates the need for specific attention is painfully shortsighted.

Yep, it just comes out sometimes. Reading or maths or whatever is just easy for them. That's the gift. Otherwise they'd just be "hard working..."

The idea that intelligence mitigates the need for specific attention is painfully shortsighted.

*Applauds*

If they don't try hard, then their gift or talent won't show will it?

a study recently suggested that something like a 1/4 of the variation in exams sucess is down to genes.

IIRC, it was introduced a few years ago when it was recognised that some schools were letting their brightest kids coast through without really pushing them. That certainly happened to me at secondary school - I was always going to get 5 Cs so was pretty much just left to just drift along.

What then happened was the kids in the middle got left to drift along, so we now have kids being judged against expected progress with all kids being expected to exceed expected progress. I know that's stupid, but remember we have an education secretary who wants all schools to be above average...

Lots of schools still keep it as an explicit list, but some don't.

I used to be on one of those programmes back in the day (mid 70's), we had a few hours a week where we could choose to do something which interested us. I mucked about with microscopes and stuff IIRC.

Sounds just like the PC way to talk about stuff - just like the old non-competitive sports rubbish that was attempted a few years ago.

What....eh.....really.... you seem hung up on Pc stuff for some reason but thanks for soapboxing ...now back on topic

If they don't try hard, then their gift or talent won't show will it?

allowing pupils from families that have no experience of tertiary education to aspire to and access higher education

The idea that intelligence mitigates the need for specific attention is painfully shortsighted.

Really - you think this is the goal - what % of the G & T do not come from parents with degrees? I would wager it is quite small tbh.

There are separate programmes aimed at students who are in the first generation to aim for HE; there's probably a big crossover though.
I teach a lot of very bright students who are the first generation to consider uni. Most of them will have been on the G&T register at school.

I like to think I'd have been on a G&T programme had it existed when I was at school, and neither of my parents had degrees at the time. My wife would certainly have been in the G&T programme and neither of her parents have degrees.

Nursery say my sons special, is that similar?

Kind of.

Imagine a nine year old going into school. Teacher starts the lesson. kid knows this stuff already, switches off. Repeat, every single school day for two more years. There's not much room for streaming in most primary schools, and lesson differentiation can only go so far, so if you don't want the brightest to switch off, or worse still, turn their talent to mischief(which they would be good at too), you need to keep them engaged.

Not being either a parent or a teacher, I might be a bit behind the game here, but as I understand it lots of (presumably secondary) schools have mixed ability groups now. Wouldn't it make more sense to have groups based on ability? Then teachers wouldn't have to try and work out a way to stretch the G&T, the SEN and all the grades in between at the same time.

Imagine a nine year old going into school. Teacher starts the lesson. kid knows this stuff already, switches off. Repeat, every single school day for two more years. There's not much room for streaming in most primary schools, and lesson differentiation can only go so far, so if you don't want the brightest to switch off, or worse still, turn their talent to mischief(which they would be good at too), you need to keep them engaged.

My wife went into our daughter's school when she was in Y1, because she'd written I'm bored on the wall by her desk.

While the teacher was talking to my wife, the teaching assistant came out of the classroom to collect some beads and string and while walking back in said "Ellie's finished first again!" with a smile.

My wife just looked at the teacher, who looked sheepish and said "yeah, ok". Ellie was never bored after that.

Not being either a parent or a teacher, I might be a bit behind the game here, but as I understand it lots of (presumably secondary) schools have mixed ability groups now. Wouldn't it make more sense to have groups based on ability? Then teachers wouldn't have to try and work out a way to stretch the G&T, the SEN and all the grades in between at the same time.

Depends upon the school.

My kids' primary streams for English and Maths from year 4 onwards. We like it, because we have bright kids.

I have colleagues who hate streaming, because their lovely kids who struggle a bit at school get lumped in with all the dickheads.

Even without specific streaming, teachers should be setting work at the correct level for each child. In a typical primary classroom there'll be 3 or 4 different tasks going on in each lesson. It's one reason why primary teachers are working 60 hour weeks.

if you don't want the brightest to switch off, or worse still, turn their talent to mischief(which they would be good at too), you need to keep them engaged.

But they they then hit secondary school with unrealistic expectations

Surely bright kids have to get used to being bored?
My youngest is a year ahead for maths what happens when he has to repeat this year at primary? or at secondary?

Any secondary school teachers able to say how they get streamed there?

DO they sit exams early?

@ Junkyard

Yes, they do, as per my previous post, Master flicker will be doing his maths GCSE a year early and a further maths/statistics qual. when the [s]thickies[/s] other kids sit their GCSE maths ;).

The transition from primary to secondary school was very good and we've never had a concern over his education, sounds like we're quite lucky.

As for background, working class thicky parents on the edge of a very middle class area.

[i]But they they then hit secondary school with unrealistic expectations[/i]

Gifted & talented is just an occasional outing... my son's only expectation of senior school is that it's like school. But bigger.

Anyway, maybe I should get my bright kid to debate this with you, cos I don't get your points at all. But then it's his mum that has the degrees, not me.

Round here a typical primary has two classes per year, "two form entry", in the jargon. Typically 400 kids. If you stream, you get basically a top-half and bottom half.

Typical secondary, excluding sixth form, 1600-1700 children. Streaming from day one, based on SATS and pupil data passed from primary(often not trusted by seconday so they get tested again). That's 320 per year group. Now your top set [i]is[/i] the top 10%.

Surely bright kids have to get used to being bored?

or

Be nice to nerds. Chances are you’ll end up working for one.

If they don't try hard, then their gift or talent won't show will it?

Absolutely this. But at primary school age it would be highly unlikely that a child would be self motivated enough to stretch themselves without direction and push by their teachers.

Another aspect is being able to differentiate what kids can do by achievement as opposed to really understanding their ability. Particularly with fact based subjects like maths; if a kid routinely gets every answer right, you can't know what they are really capable of. They need to be pushed to the extent where they get some answers wrong, and understanding that that that's how you really learn, by failing in a positive way.

Round here a typical primary has two classes per year, "two form entry", in the jargon. Typically 400 kids. If you stream, you get basically a top-half and bottom half.

Ours is 1 form entry, which is big for round here - the next nearest schools are both 1/2 form entry!

I was never pushed at school, I could get good marks with no real effort. The teachers mostly concentrated on the idiots. I got A's in Science at GCSE's with exactly no revision.... even during class I spent most of my time locked in a 1000 yard stare dreaming about being somewhere else.

Because I got in trouble a lot for being off in my own world, I lost respect for most of my teachers....became prone to sitting at the back of the class with mates making wisecracks....did things like blow up bins with fireworks. When I got my GCSE results, I didn't care much for them except it allowed me to stick two fingers up to my teachers and say that I could have done it without them.

It took me a long time to shake the "coasting" attitude that I developed.

If they don't try hard, then their gift or talent won't show will it?

A natural sports person [ gifted and talented] will be good at sports without effort [ we would call them hard working and achieving otherwise] ...how far that takes them will depend on application but the talent will show, initially, without hard work.

Roughly 75% of intelligence is genetic so it will show without effort especially in primary.

Any secondary school teachers able to say how they get streamed there?

Depends upon the school. The one our daughter will be starting in September streams from day 1 in pretty much every subject. Others we looked at only streamed maths and English, some only streamed English from Y8.

DO they sit exams early?

My brightest current A level physics student got his A* in GCSE in Y9, got an A* in additional maths GCSE in Y10 and got an A in AS maths in Y11, in a school without a sixth form.

Almost every school will put their Y10s in for GCSE foundation tier in Y10, to 'bank' the C grade, then use November and June entries in Y11 to sit the higher tier and move up to a B or a C. Some schools enter the Y9s for GCSE maths now, just so they can fail it, because the rules were changed to only allow a November exam.

Roughly 75% of intelligence is genetic so it will show without effort especially in primary.

Which means that someone with an IQ of 100 as an adult could have either had an IQ of 125 or 75 depending on their underlying genetics and their enviornment.

That is a pretty huge variation.

Roughly 75% of intelligence is genetic so it will show without effort especially in primary.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

A bright but lazy kid will not achieve the same as a bright but hard-working kid. They do better than the thick lazy ones, but that's all.

How well they do in primary will set their targets for GCSEs. If your bright lazy child goes up to secondary with a B target and no experience or expectation of having to work hard, they'll get a B.

Which means that someone with an IQ of 100 as an adult could have either had an IQ of 125 or 75 depending on their enviornment.

Not quite - IQ tests (are meant to) test innate ability. Someone with an IQ of 75 will probably need help tying their own shoelaces.

IQ tests don't measure academic performance Mike....

Not quite - IQ tests (are meant to) test innate ability. Someone with an IQ of 75 will probably need help tying their own shoelaces.

The brain is plastic, I'm sure that IQ can be affected by nutrition and growing up in an environment that taxes the brain.

If the environment is responsible for 25% of an adults final IQ score, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that identical twins in two different environments could vary by as much as 25 percent.

Whether the literature actually supports this is a different matter...

IQ tests mainly test how good you are at IQ tests.

As I understand it, you can't jump from 75% of intelligence being genetic to an IQ of 75 with no work rather than 100 with work, because IQ scores are based on standard deviations from the mean rather than being a linear scale.

But that's all academic (pun intended) if we're talking about school performance and Junkyard's assertion that we should let bright kids coast through primary school so they get used to being bored in secondary school.

Every kid is expected to make a certain amount of progress in each year. This is based on their performance in the previous year, with the more able kids expected to achieve that progress. There's simply no margin for coasting (though that's not to say it can't be exciting and fun).

I assume that the 75% figure is coming from recently publicised research which was looking into what effect a teacher/school could have on performance. That looked at the performance of identical twins (ruling out genetic differences and, presumably, the impact of home culture and environment). They looked at variation in exam results, which showed what difference having different teachers through school made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleability_of_intelligence

Check out the IQ table. There's a 21 point change in there.

When I was young I couldn't sit still enough to take an intelligence test, I think I scored quite low on one when I was about 5 or 6. Even when I was 12 or 13 I was to immature to really concentrate on them! These days on average I'm in the mid 130's.

Sometimes I look back at threads I've started and just wonder at the power of the internet.....

Interesting range of experiences of the G&T thing, will ask some questions at parents evening to see what it actually means for our kids.

Had a fun game with MrsMC last night trying to guess which of the parents at school today would be rushing to tell the rest that their kids had got the letters yesterday

God damnit now I've developed an interest in epigenetics and brain development.

*Furiously googling/database trawling*

IQ tests measure the ability to do well in IQ tests, and are only a vague indicator of anything else.

Back in NornIrn in the 1970s, our class was intensively coached for the 11+ exam, which was basically an IQ test. Vastly improved our scores, but I suspect not our intelligence.

[i]will ask some questions at parents evening to see what it actually means for our kids.[/i]

One thing you might discover, which I have many times, is that nobody in "the real world" thinks like singletrackworld!
I bet if I asked 30 people in this building if they would be pleased if their child was put into gifted and talented. 30 would say 'Yes'.

Sorry, but you're wrong

Well you should get that published and then you can show all the other research to be bobbins

Best of luck 😉

Twin studies mono and dyzygotic including those separated at birth show this

I would google for you but i am off now

Bright people have bright kids generally
Tall people have tall kids generally - do you doubt this as well
Etc
Will post links later today

The vast majority of twins studies actually fail to introduce significant enough socioeconomic differences....

I know a member of Mensa and he stays indoors all day in a dirty flat. His bed recently broke but he can't be bothered to order a new one so sleeps on the floor.
Be careful what you wish for!

Bright people have bright kids generally

I'm not disputing this.

I just thought of why Junky's "like being rewarded for being tall" doesn't hold up:
You're not at school to be learn how to be tall, you're at school to be educated to learn how to be clever. Not being rewarded for [i]this[/i] is like a tall kid being made to walk on his knees - because being tall has its' own rewards and takes no effort to demonstrate.
ps.
Just found this in the lad's school bag -
[URL= http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r90/dezb99/cert_zps20b6d5db.jp g" target="_blank">http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r90/dezb99/cert_zps20b6d5db.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
🙂

can't be bothere to read all the replies so apologies if i say similar to whats already been said.

i think it may depend on the schools involved as to how well run it is and how efective, but both my kids have been on the programme and really benefited from it, my daughter more so but only because the school managed to send the teacher in charge off on long term sick leave through stress (long story) so its not run as well now.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/genius-children-somehow-becoming-average-adults-2014021283518

😀