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I'm fairly sure the phrase 'chop chop' along with 'chopsticks' and 'choppy seas' aren't inherently racist, as they are just words acquired from a different language, such is the way of the English language. I'm also pretty sure that they could be used in a racist manner though, which kind of cuts to the crux of this issue. There appears to be two types of racism being talked about here; deliberate racism of the 'monkey football chant' variety, and perceived racism, such as the cheeky monkey t shirt. I'm fairly sure both are wrong, but I'm also fairly sure that they are on a entirely different order of magnitude of wrongness to each other.
I agree, the t-shirt is more "bad taste" with racist connotations than outright racist.
I am not sure we need to keep educating them on terms that were used to abuse in the past and to rule then out for their future. Is it not better just to let them get on with it and the problem finally dies away?I think about the young black kid in this picture who for all we know might have had a really great day doing a photoshoot. Now he is news for something he might not even understand. A young kid who might have even got a kick out of the comparison to being his favourite animal or something being told he shouldn't wear it because if the colour of his skin.
Makes me sad for the youth to have the faults of their elders hanging over them.
That’s how I see it too and it saddens me for the same reasons
What does "show the race card" even mean?
Yeah, & 'play the race card', same really.
Happens a lot in the prison service.
'Your'e picking on me cos I'm black/asian'
'I'm not picking on you, I keep saying 'no' cos you keep asking for things you aren't entitled to. & if you ask Officer Rahim he'll say no as well, so sod off'
That sort of thing.
ah. Apologies for my sarcastic reply. I mentally inserted “you’ve” in front of your question rather than “I’ve”, which I guess is what you meant, and completely changes the meaning of what I thought you said.
I do that a lot. 😆
Yeah, I was surprised when I googled the etymology. Every day’s a school day I guess.
Me too but it seems to be the most common theory is that it’s pidgin Chinese. I’m not convinced that makes it racist or offensive given it just means hurry up.
In the context of this debate what do you now think of Kelvin MacKenzie's comment about Ross Barkely (compared him to a Gorilla) that was considered by many as racist as Barkely's father is from Nigeria even though MacKenzie claims he was not aware of this and visually his black african heritage is not apparent?
In the context of this debate what do you now think of Kelvin MacKenzie's comment about Ross Barkely (compared him to a Gorilla) that was considered by many as racist as Barkely's father is from Nigeria even though MacKenzie claims he was not aware of this and visually his black african heritage is not apparent?
It's inconceivable that MacKenzie did not know that "gorilla" was a term of racist abuse.
It's inconceivable that MacKenzie did not know that "gorilla" was a term of racist abuse.
No, that MacKenzie did not know that Barkely has a black father.
I'm struggling to find any ****s to give on this "news".
Life has got to be pretty good if people are finding the time to bicker over shit this inconsequential.
It reminds me of a skit on a Blak Twang album where some people on the tube are reproached by some heavy black youths for being racist after describing an Arsenal midfielder as a monkey.
Turns out they were discussing Martin Keown, causing everyone involved to have a good giggle
just as racist if they had used a white kid?
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Life has got to be pretty good if people are finding the time to bicker over shit this inconsequential.
Welcome to living in the first world in 2018. We have very few real problems, no shortage of food and access to multiple news sources 24 hours a day. With this lack of real problems in the 1st world, the news channels go looking for news to fill the time/space.
Add in social media where everybody can voice their opinion and this is what we get.
Me too but it seems to be the most common theory is that it’s pidgin Chinese. I’m not convinced that makes it racist or offensive given it just means hurry up.
I wouldn't have thought it "racist", but I can imagine if it was historically used to Chinese slaves then offence may well be taken.
It's not inherently racist, although like anything it can easily be used in a racist manner.
Has anyone on the thread claimed it is inherently racist? I may have missed it but if so we'll have to start picketing soft-play centres called "Cheeky Monkeys" across the nation.
I wouldn't have thought it "racist", but I can imagine if it was historically used to Chinese slaves then offence may well be taken.
Was it though? I reallly couldn’t find much on it.
just as racist if they had used a white kid?
No, even if there is a history dating back thousands of years of its use a derogitory term.
Was it though? I reallly couldn’t find much on it.
I dunno, we need the contributor who posted about it to elaborate on his conversation really.
I the meantime I'm gonna play it safe.
Have Scouts banned woggles yet?
A young kid who might have even got a kick out of the comparison to being his favourite animal or something being told he shouldn't wear it because if the colour of his skin.
This.
I have a young son and I'd guess about ten percent of his tops have a monkey on them as does his first bike[1] and a large percentage of his toys. The monkey image is ubiquitous in children's clothes and ubiquitous as a term of endearment.
Sacking him from this photo shoot and replacing with a lad of different ethnicity would have been mental and racist.
Telling black kids they can't wear monkey clothes is mental and racist.
He looks great in that top and I expect his parents/relations do call him a little monkey just like all other kids.
I really hope he never hears about this fuss, and I really hope that any publicity over this doesn't stop kids wearing any top they want or playing with any toy they want.
I also hope advertizers don't stop hiring non-white kids in case they attract this kind of bad publicity over some imagined faux pas.
[1] When I put that bike on freecycle do the STW race police think I should advertize it as 'no black children please'???
H+M mega-dumb - me calling my kids monkeys has little bearing on the item of clothing and picture in question.
But uber-cool-singer-HM-model dresses like a binman (pre-empt apologies for any offended binmen).
How many of you would be happy to walk up to a black person in the street and say to their little kid "awwww you`re a cute little monkey arent you?"
I hope everyone would. I'd be mortified if anyone treated my lad differently on the grounds of race. I'm equally horrified that people are analysing the racial background of kids so they can talk to some of them differently.
But it is in common usage in a non racist or offensive manner and has been for years.
Good point. Is monkey really a racist term in this context? I've never heard it used in a racially derogative way, wheras in and out of nursery and school I hear it all the time as a term of endearment for a child. The dictionary doesn't mention any negative connotations at all.
If JoJo Maman Bébé can flog truckloads of stuff with monkeys all over it it can't be that racist, whatever the relative percentages of DNA the child wearing it is made up from.
Always referred to mine as 'cheeky little monkeys' as a term of endearment.
Don't do it now because they're too big and too old.
I had no idea 'little monkey' was a racist term. I thought it was to do with being restless/mischievous. Pretty sure my mum used to call me one, in fact...
'Little monkey' in isolation isn't racist, but in the context of the H&M cock-up it most certainly could be seen to be racist.
Bloody hell.
I had no idea who "The Weeknd" was, not in a typical STW inverted down with the kids way, just simply hadn't heard of the chap so just gave him a quick google.
So calling women b* and referring to people as the 'n'word is perfectly acceptable, but a t-shirt saying coolest monkey in the jungle isn't?
What a *.
Talentless insipid gobshite looking for publicity.
johndoh - Member'Little monkey' in isolation isn't racist, but in the context of the H&M cock-up it most certainly could be seen to be racist.
Perhaps by someone who was starved of oxygen at birth.
[quote=outofbreath ]I've never heard it used in a racially derogative way
You've never heard it? Well that's OK then
Perhaps by someone who was starved of oxygen at birth.
Stay classy.
kenneththecurtain - MemberI had no idea 'little monkey' was a racist term.
It isn't.
ransos - MemberStay classy.
You're right.
My Uncle was mentally disabled due to oxygen starvation at birth and he wouldn't have been stupid enough to find offence in that t-shirt.
I'll think of another way of putting it. 🙂
Perhaps by someone who was starved of oxygen at birth.
Knife > Heart
When i worked for Evans cycles, We had concession store within a larger Blacks store in York.
They (Blacks) put up large posters in the store of a 6-7 year old girls building a sand castle, with the slogan "Summer made Sexy"
I still think that was a lot worse than this balls-up by HM.
My nephews are really into jungle animals and i would buy them this hoodie if i saw it.
Singlespeed_Shep - MemberThey (Blacks) put up large posters in the store of a 6-7 year old girls building a sand castle, with the slogan "Summer made Sexy"
It's no wonder racism exists if the blacks are trying to sexualize our children.
t's no wonder racism exists if the blacks are trying to sexualize our children.
Hahahaha 😆
😀
I'd best get to the pub before I'm put on the naughty step.
Has nobody thought to ask the monkees opinion on this? I want to know what Peter, Micky, Davey and Michael think about it.
They would be racist but they're otherwise occupied.
Just seen this thread.
My take on it?
The advert guys are a bit naive when they put that lad in that particular hoodie!
Whether you consider it racist or not, stupid not to have even CONSIDERED that it has huge potential to be an issue!
Doh!
That said, I've never heard of the The Next Fortnite guy anyway??!! Lol 😀
On some occassions I call my kids "little shits" and I would buy this:
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The other day I was talking to a Middle Eastern guy about the Marathon Plus tyres. The silence that fell after I've said "they're almost bombproof" was a bit awkward. I decided to carry on as usual. Anyway. Racism and all the others. I was called racist names and at some point I've realised it's not my problem but the poor person's that are trying to offend me using the simplest way possible. If people wouldn't care about the "race card" would there still be racism? I used to call a friend of mine a certain name when I was a lot younger and a tad more stupid. One day he ignored all the crap I was naming him. The fun was over. Never called him a bad name again, wasn't even considering substitutes.
chakaping - Member
Was it though? I reallly couldn’t find much on it.
I dunno, we need the contributor who posted about it to elaborate on his conversation really.
Hello!
Re: my "chop-chop" gaffe
I think it's all been covered really. I said it to her because it's something I do say from time-to-time, like the way that somebody might sometimes refer to a child as a cheeky-monkey. I'm happy that this is not inherently racist language, and saying it does not instantly make me a racist - but your own opinion may differ.
However, as soon as I said it (and she pulled a "WTF!" face), I realized that I'd just said it to an ethnically Chinese person - and (although I didn't know for sure) the phrase was probably rooted in racism, or at least colonial-era language.
I immediately apologized, explaining that I said it without thinking. She was quite cool with it, but explained that she was bullied mercilessly growing up (she was the only non-caucasion in her school) and this was one of the expressions that was used to taunt her.
So I think there's a clear parallel between this and the "little monkey" incident - neither are inherently racist, but they do come with lots of racist undertones - and so should probably be avoided.
Would call a black child a cheeky monkey? No. I wouldn't say "chop-chop" (again) to a Chinese person either. It'd be great if those phrases didn't carry racist undertones..... but the sad truth is that they do. Ignoring/not realizing that might not make you a racist - but it does make you a touch insensitive (or as me and my friend agreed: a bit of a muppet)
However, as soon as I said it (and she pulled a "WTF!" face), I realized that I'd just said it to an ethnically Chinese person - and (although I didn't know for sure) the phrase was probably rooted in racism, or at least colonial-era language.
That's one hell of a hunch!
An individual might have got annoyed at "chop chop", but I don't believe it is generally recognised as offensive:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chop_chop_(phrase)
On the other hand,I think you would have to be living under a rock not to be aware that "monkey" is extremely insulting when directed at black people. I know next to nothing about football, but even as someone who doesn't follow the sport, I'm well aware of the nasty stuff that some black players have faced, like monkey chants and people throwing bananas.
As other people have noted, it is difficult to believe that H&M published that photo. I'd have expected someone in the process to have spotted the problem pretty quicky.
That's one hell of a hunch!
Ha! Not really...... from her face it was pretty evident! I had honestly never considered it before - but it felt wrong as soon as I'd said it.
On the other hand,I think you would have to be living under a rock not to be aware that "monkey" is extremely insulting when directed at black people. I know next to nothing about football, but even as someone who doesn't follow the sport, I'm well aware of the nasty stuff that some black players have faced, like monkey chants and people throwing bananas.
You dont need to be football fan to know this, just google "Michelle Obama Monkey" and you will see that this sort of thing is still prevelant in todays society.
So the model's mum is yet another person in the chain who surprisingly didn't spot the obvious problem. Maybe it's something to do with being involved in fashion that impairs your common sense and general knowledge?
“Terry Mango”..... awesome
So the model's mum is yet another person in the chain who surprisingly didn't spot the obvious problem.
Or maybe she just thought it's a non issue..
Or maybe she just thought it's a non issue..
This. ....and she's right.
This. ....and she's right.
But not according to everyone.
[quote=trailwagger ]You dont need to be football fan to know this, just google "Michelle Obama Monkey" and you will see that this sort of thing is still prevelant in todays society.
Given I've been posting links to comments by John Barnes, I should note that I'm not a football fan at all (I had to do a bit of googling around to find the name of the player - I only knew there was a well known black England player who'd made such comments).
Ironically, no I don't...
Or maybe she just thought it's a non issue..
This. ....and she's right.
Maybe? The quote in the story says quite clearly that she thinks it's a non issue. That doesn't mean she's right though, does it?
That doesn't mean she's right though, does it?
Of course it does, otherwise she would have to be offended about something she isn't offended about.
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Just for clarification* it's the same as the podium girls not providing the definitive opinion on whether having podium girls is a good thing.
*yeah, I know it's probably not providing clarification for those who don't understand why the podium girls' opinion isn't definitive 😉
Just for clarification* it's the same as the podium girls not providing the definitive opinion on whether having podium girls is a good thing.
Apart from women and black children, which other groups do you think shouldd have thier clothing and job options dictated to them?
...and how would you define 'black child'. If a child had one black grandparent could he/she choose her own clothes? What about children with 3 black grandparents who visually appear to be 100pc 'white'. Would you DNA test children to determine what clothes the could wear?
If I found a family tree and discovered a black ancestor (I've already dicovered several asian ancestors) would I have to bin all my son's monkey related clothing?
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*yeah, I know it's probably not providing clarification for those who don't understand why the podium girls' opinion isn't definitive
It is nice to get such quick confirmation
It's not a strawman.
Either it's ok for black children to wear whatever they want or it's not.
If it's not, how are you defining 'black'? DNA percentage? Physical appearence?
Apart from women and black children, which other groups do you think shouldd have thier clothing and job options dictated to them?
I dont think anyone has suggested thats its wrong or inapropriate for a "black kid to wear one of these hoodies. But what is a major balls up, is a multinational company not realising the potential offense and insensetivity of using an image like this in thier marketing campaign.
Being Irish i've met lots of people who have a darker tan than me but never anyone whose skin was black.
I've worked with colour for over three decades and although i wouldn't call myself an expert or anything, i know black and brown when i see them. Even the nice chaps i met in Ethopia were brown - a really dark, warm, rich brown - but not ****ing black!
I dont think anyone has suggested thats its wrong or inapropriate for a "black kid to wear one of these hoodies.
That's *exactly* what people are saying. They all agree that if they'd sacked the black kid and replaced him with a white kid they would have no problem whatseover.
i've met lots of people who have a darker tan than me but never anyone whose skin was black.I've worked with colour for over three decades and although i wouldn't call myself an expert or anything, i know black and brown when i see them. Even the nice chaps i met in Ethopia were brown - a really dark, warm, rich brown - but not ****ing black!
This.
Apart from women and black children, which other groups do you think shouldd have thier clothing and job options dictated to them?...and how would you define 'black child'. If a child had one black grandparent could he/she choose her own clothes? What about children with 3 black grandparents who visually appear to be 100pc 'white'. Would you DNA test children to determine what clothes the could wear?
If I found a family tree and discovered a black ancestor (I've already dicovered several asian ancestors) would I have to bin all my son's monkey related clothing?
Some people find the world a very confusing place.
[quote=outofbreath ]It's not a strawman.
I'm not sure you'd know one if it shook hands with you.
Some people find the world a very confusing place.
I'm not sure you'd know one if it shook hands with you.
I recognise the "Avoiding the Issue" fallacy too.
Ah, yes, that would be this one:
[quote=outofbreath ]
i've met lots of people who have a darker tan than me but never anyone whose skin was black.
I've worked with colour for over three decades and although i wouldn't call myself an expert or anything, i know black and brown when i see them. Even the nice chaps i met in Ethopia were brown - a really dark, warm, rich brown - but not ****ing black!
This.
Ah, yes, that would be this one:
That's not avoiding the issue, that *is* the issue! If you're going to say 'black' people can only wear certain clothes first you have to define 'black' people.
Euro is spot on.
You just need a pencil ...
Some people just want to take us back to a time when the colour of your skin was relevant.
😆 really? To paraphrase Euro "oh look, a squirrel". If you think his post is at all relevant then that just emphasises how much you're missing the point by.
really? To paraphrase Euro "oh look, a squirrel". If you think his post is at all relevant then that just emphasises how much you're missing the point by.
If you're going to catagorise people by the colour of their skin (as far as i'm concerned were all the same race - human) you might as well get it right. But then, why stop at skin colour? Why not have a race of tall people, baldies, etc. It's not like we have a choice how tall we are just like we have no say as to how much pigment our skin has.
Rene is touching at what i was getting at, and earlier in the thread km79 posted something that most ignored. The drama this innocuous photoshoot has caused it a step backwards and it's a saddening we have to expose the younger generations to the ignorance and bigotry of our, and older generations.
Times change, and so do people thankfully. The world isnt the same place it was even 20 years ago. I grew up and still live in a place that has had it's fair share of prejudice and a racism (or bigotry) of sorts. I've been on the wrong end of it on many occasions but i'm not bitter about it (now), and to be frank, it's not something i'll tell my kids about unless they ask. It's hopefully not something they'll never have to experience. As i said, things and people change. Bringing this kind of thing to the surface does more harm than good as for some it can re-open old wounds. All this people being offended on behalf of people who may not even be offended is really odd. So yeah, a squirrel! 😀
All this people being offended on behalf of people who may not even be offended is really odd
Why do you think people are "getting offended on behalf of someone else"? I think H and M made an obvious cock up and the photo was inappropriate, for the reasons that have been well explained by other people. I've no idea if there was deliberate intent by someone or if everyone involved just failed to spot the problem. That's just my opinion; it's not offered on behalf of anyone else.
The world isnt the same place it was even 20 years ago.
That's true. 20 years ago I wouldn't have expected to hear the President of the USA saying that a white nationalist demonstration included “some very fine people”...
All this people being offended on behalf of people who may not even be offended is really odd
It's bloody annoying & I wish people who get offended cos they think SOMEONE ELSE may be offended would STFU & get in the sea.
Years ago in the prison I was working in, we had a largely unused room next to the office & one day I turned up at work to see a tiny wigwam made from broken pool cues & prison bedsheets with a note on saying, 'Quiet please, Officer G may be asleep in his wigwam' Officer G (me) is only about 5'5" in work boots & I found it very amusing & not in the least bit offended. Came in again a few days later to find that a certain governor had told the other staff to remove the makeshift wigwam because 'Mr G might be offended'. I was more offended that she'd stuck her nose in & I told her so later. She was like, 'well I was only acting on your behalf, It seemed insensitive'.
Well it wasn't, & was very offended by her stupid response.
Was probably a tepee.
Bit of racial insensitivity there. 😉
Cultural appropriation, that's what it was.
Why do you think people are "getting offended on behalf of someone else"? I think H and M made an obvious cock up and the photo was inappropriate, for the reasons that have been well explained by other people. I've no idea if there was deliberate intent by someone or if everyone involved just failed to spot the problem.
I don't know why. As i said, i find it very odd. I don't see an obvious cock up or problem . If i really tried i could maybe muster up a modicum of offence on behalf of others, but i'd be being awkward just for the sake of it...
The shirt colour is a bit too 'republican green' and might cause offence or even outrage to some who live in my area. Im sure i could persuade be the local Orange Lodge to get behind me on that one.
Coolest monkey in the jungle? Jungles are warm so no need for a hoodie. Offended by unnecessary clothing? Are you with me nudists?
Or evolution suggest humans share an ancestry with apes. Apes/monkeys what's the difference? (no need to answer that). If i was religious i could be offended by that as i'd believe God created man. Pretty sure i could get a good crowd to pray for the editor (or stone him)
You can pretty much find offence in anything if you try.
Quick anecdote. I once designed a logo for a local computer company. Based on the old emerald green/gold circuit boards incorporating the initials of the company's name. I deliberately changed the colours so as not to incite the hatred of the local prods (no offence prods!) and the finished job looked pretty good. Customer was very happy and promptly paid. A few weeks later i got a call from the client asking me to change the logo. When i asked why he informed me a customer had told him the logo looked like a man shagging a boy from behind! Client couldn't see it and neither did i but i changed it anyway (to a boy shagging a man 😀 To me it said more about the person who saw the filthy logo that it did about reality. That may or may not be the point.
I'm torn now between getting a t-shirt made up with
Coolest carrot in the allotment
Or
Daddy's little shit bag.
Some people found it offensive
H&M stores in South Africa trashed over 'racist' hoodie - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42675665
trailwagger - MemberSome people found it offensive
Just remembered my daughter does Monkeynastics once a week, there's a black girl and a very dark asian in her class, they even give out badges with monkey on them.
Should I be outraged?
Should I be outraged?
I think you should - surely someone could come up with a better name than “monkeynastics”. That’s shite.
We have a meeting on Thursday, I'll relay your comments. Verbatim.