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My son is 20 yo and has always wanted to work while he is educated. University never really appealed to him and he spent the last year doing a variety of manual jobs. He doesn't mind hard work - out at 6am and back whenever. Really fit and can turn his hand to lots of stuff. People seem to like him too which helps.
He also has a good education behind him and was accepted to do a masters in civil engineering with a view to becomming chartered.
A local water company reached out to him (word of mouth) and after interview, offered him a job, starting next week. Money seems good, around £30K, and they have said that could increase rapidly but he would be self employed. Its a small water company, dealing in provision of drinking water mostly from what I understand. My son seems impressed by the setup, lots of new equipment, new offices they will give him a new van (don't know how that works if he is not employed). Relatively small companmy, but been running for 10 years and their returns to company house look fine.
He can defer uni for 12 months while he finds out if he likes this. They have promised to 'train' him to a high standard, promised he will love the work, ability to make money. I just aim to see him doing what he wants, but I'm medical and have no idea of the potential pitfalls here. Obviously he is giving up a formal qualification in civil engineering and I dont know whether this could be a cause for regret later.
Any pointers gratefully received. tx.
he would be self employed.
You're not 'self employed' if you only have one client
Consider what's being offered and if it passes these criteria:
You are considered self-employed if you’re:
- in business for yourself, are responsible for the success or failure of your business and can make a loss or a profit;
- able to decide what work you do and when, where or how to do it;
- able to hire someone else to do the work;
- responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in your own time;
- your client agrees a fixed price for work – it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish;
- using your own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for your work;
- not restricted for working just that client.
Massive red flag - as above, how can they offer him a job, salary, van etc and be self employed.
There's going to be a catch here - could be no holiday, has to pay for fuel himself, has to pay for insurance himself, hotel stays if needed, salary based on "estimated workload" etc etc.
Already said, a lot of that doesn't hang together in crucial legal ways.
Yes seemed odd to me - they present it as being 'tax efficient', but I realise there will be major savings for them, holiday NI, pensions etc hence reaching out for more info.
I've asked him to get something in writing for us to look at; he thinks I'm raining on his parade but will come round I'm sure.
Provision of drinking water sounds like flogging water coolers/water to offices etc, probs a sales job and the 30k figure is 'estimated' with commission etc. Could be wrong!
@maccruiskeen where do the the parameters that you list come from ? HMRC. Are they derived from a legal framework? Tx
A local water company reached out to him (word of mouth) and after interview, offered him a job, starting next week. Money seems good, around £30K, and they have said that could increase rapidly but he would be self employed. Its a small water company, dealing in provision of drinking water mostly from what I understand.
Firstly the self employed bit is a red flag.
I presume this is for one of the new appointees rather than for one of the retailers. Or is it for one of the fly by nights offering borehole services to hospitals? Or one of those watercooler places?
He's far better off getting chartered, plenty of opportunities in the water industry in proper outfits.
Provision of drinking water sounds like flogging water coolers/water to offices etc, probs a sales job and the 30k figure is ‘estimated’ with commission etc. Could be wrong!
No nothing like that. Should have been clearer. Its moving water from reservoirs to commercial and domestic premesis via pipelines/ infrastructure. They deal with new installations, reparis and also subcontract for Severn Trent.
Ah ok fair enough it just set off alarm bells for me also but totally wrong. 😉
Reminds me of a job where I was going to sell "industrial cleaning equipment" which was IIRC fancy vacuum cleaner to private households.
As others said, red flags.
No nothing like that. Should have been clearer. Its moving water from reservoirs to commercial and domestic premesis via pipelines/ infrastructure. They deal with new installations, reparis and also subcontract for Severn Trent.
So a contractor or do they own and operate assets as a appointed water company, regulated by DWI, OFWAT, etc
I presume this is for one of the new appointees rather than for one of the retailers. Or is it for one of the fly by nights offering borehole services to hospitals?
Not quite sure what you mean. Firm is called Watertight . Looks as if they are installing pipes 'precsion drilling' - but it means very little to me.
Being young is the time to take risks, and he's not even taking a risk if he can defer for 12 months. Even if it turns out to my crap, at that age its valuable life experience.
There are literally no downsides.
‘precsion drilling’
As if any company specialises in 'half arsed drilling' 😉
There are literally no downsides.
Unless HMRC come calling saying you weren't really self employed and owe us £ks in unpaid tax....
20 year old being offered a £30k salary with no experience sounds way too good to be true without any nepotism.
I'd definitely find out more.
Being young is the time to take risks, and he’s not even taking a risk if he can defer for 12 months. Even if it turns out to my crap, at that age its valuable life experience.
There are literally no downsides.
Thats exactly what I thought and said to him initially. I'm pleased that he seems inspired to work. Tying him down to the way I 'did it' via uni seems inward looking. They may well be a small company looking to make their mark and he may thrive there.
At the end of the day I'm just here to support and try to spot anyone obviously taking the piss.
‘precsion drilling’
But not precision spelling?
As if any company specialises in ‘half arsed drilling’ 😉
Is there no SAS of the water industry then 🙂
But not precision spelling?
Very good, my 'i' must be a bit sticky tonight
As if any company specialises in ‘half arsed drilling’
Allow me to introduce you to some of our sub-contract fabricators... 🙄
20 year old being offered a £30k salary with no experience sounds way too good to be true without any nepotism.
It may be a little less, I'm not sure, but they made it clear he would be working hard. He is at that age where he can work very long days. He made tidy sum landscaping last year.
The employment status sounds like a tax workaround. Like he'd be a contractor / subbie but only working for them.
The training page, a lot of the listed courses are shorter courses. Every few years I do a suite of them and tick 8 off in a morning.
The equipment page to me reads as "we have an account at speedy and were able to set up portacabins on site"
I'm sure they're sound but I'd go down the education route right now a CEng will take him further in life.
It sounds like a fixed term contract, is that the case? Has he got a BEng in Civils or similar?
I used to work in civils (geotechnical), did a lot of work with drillers and now work in the water industry.
I've just looked that company up - looks like a provider of specialist technical services. I used to do a similar role.
My experience was: brutal work, unreal amounts of time driving, likely a few hotel stays a week, regular drug and alcohol testing, the absolute destruction of your social life, regular mobbing on a Sunday night, and if he's drilling it'll possibly be being paid by the meter.
The employment status sounds like a tax workaround. Like he’d be a contractor / subbie but only working for them.
Agree
The training page, a lot of the listed courses are shorter courses. Every few years I do a suite of them and tick 8 off in a morning.
Thought that too, similar to our mandatory training.
I’m sure they’re sound but I’d go down the education route right now a CEng will take him further in life.
The option to defer MEng is there. I expect he will try this as it is what he has always expressed a preference for - 'real work'
Have you checked glassdoor for ex employees reviews?
My experience was: brutal work, unreal amounts of time driving, likely a few hotel stays a week, regular drug and alcohol testing, the absolute destruction of your social life, regular mobbing on a Sunday night, and if he’s drilling it’ll possibly be being paid by the meter.
Good to know. I think there was an element of 'not everyone can hack it' but those that can do alright.
I'm sure they look at him as a certain type 'reasonably bright' and with a capacity to work. Whether he will like it is another thing. I expect that will depend on what he takes home and his future prospects.
Run.
I was a Financial Controller for a large Privately Owned sub-contractor of United Utilities. Over £200m turnover. United Utilities contract with big companies, Murphy, O'Connors etc to do the civils.
Doesn't sound right him being self employed in the industry - as it's part of the CIS, and expecting him to learn whilst self employed - no no - lots of liabilities.
I'd stear him away from this company into something else - £30k and no training yet...nope.
Similar issues with my son, loves IT, really good, but a desk job no good for him - really doesn't get time keeping despite us kicking him out for the job. He's struggling to find something, but is a bit of a genius with fixing cars (does all his mates). Trying to get him to go that way, but we had an 'issue' with a 'tuner company' that didn't pay him - I got it sorted in the end.
If it sounds too good to be true !!
Have you checked glassdoor for ex employees reviews?
Can't find anything
There's rarely been a better time to be in work and a worse time to go to uni what with Covid and all.
I did five years at Welsh Water, a lot of people in the industry were very happy in their jobs, even the drillers/civil engineering bods on contracts. Lots of driving, yup. Hotel stays, rarely because it was only Wales. Drug and alcohol testing, I'm neither a drunk nor junkie. Social life destruction, no worse than many other jobs. Mobbing on a Sunday night? WTF.
If nothing else it'll focus his mind on what he really wants from life and provide some motivation if he ends up going on to uni.
Junior worked for a Berlin start-up. That crash course in corporate life taught him what he doesn't want from life and has focussed his mind on what he does want.
I way I’d do it, but at 20 with an option to defer uni by a year? Do it.
If it’s crap/a scam then you leave and do something else for a few months whilst waiting for uni to start.
Doesn’t sound right him being self employed in the industry – as it’s part of the CIS
I wonder if he would be part of the CIS. He tells me he will be introduced to a firm called Hudson Contract who 'manage this relationship'.
There’s rarely been a better time to be in work and a worse time to go to uni what with Covid and all.
This and in his heart he really does not want to go to uni so I can't guarantee he will succeed in that particular environment.
The self-employed thing is a bit of a red flag but nevertheless I say go for it.
Some real world work experience before uni is invaluable, even better if it corresponds with the chosen subject.
They look like an ambitious subcontractor, they will promise they can do anything and then find the staff/fudge it. Directors have the thinest LinkedIn profiles I have seen for this type of company.
They will probably run him ragged, I'd be concerned about H&S, he has no real world experience, the industry is better than most but accidents happen, a dropped chamber lid can take your fingers off which is a life changing injury, confined spaces etc etc
The self employed bit is the biggest red flag, it shows they are cutting corners, they can drop him without notice. Also when these firms fold it can be brutal, told to drive to a depot for a "briefing" van keys taken off them and told they don't have a job and to find their own way home.
Who do you think Hudson Contract protect?
https://www.hudsoncontract.co.uk/
Could be brilliant, could be a disaster, they will promise anything
Could make him realise that without being chartered his career is limited
Working in civil engineering without a degree sucks balls.
He'll watch people who are ****ing useless come in with on accelerate past him despite the fact you essentially gave them on the job training and picked up their mistakes on their way to chartership.
Which is why aged 37 i am doing an apprenticeship degree.
In my previous employment as a rope access tech most firms are set up and take folk on as subbies. Jobs come and go and specialist skills are needed. That's expected by all involved and the techs are free to move around between companies.
This seems different as I said above. I bet there are some good guys busting a gut and he'd learn a lot, but there will also be a shed load of cluster****s out there who are a liability.
I'd be tempted to defer and do it. But go back!
This sounds like a 2 bit operation, they never heard of pimlico plumbers???!
This year will be miserable at uni. This job will give him something to talk about in proper job interviews at proper companies.
With the degree and this experience he will be looking at starting on 30k+ at a proper company with a proper pension and benefits.
He also has a good education behind him and was accepted to do a masters in civil engineering with a view to becomming chartered.
Has he already done a bachelors degree? Doesn't sound like it.
Education and qualifications first.
Engineers will always be in demand; chartered status is becoming increasingly important and relevant.
You say he's been accepted for an MEng degree; are you certain that's the course?
The whole subbie piece raises red flags for me.
Why work as a self employed subbie to a utilities sub-contractor?
To me, this doesn't pass the smell test.
I can say with 100% certainty that the public sector - which encompasses water utilities - are very wary of the sort of contractual arrangement being proposed by Waterwise.
Do your research and homework as this, I think, has significant potential to go tits up and leave your son exposed.
Cut out the middle man - talk direct with UU/severn trent and the other utilities about opportunities direct with them.
If it was my son, this is the advice he would get from me.
the 30k could be £15/h for a 40 hour week. it is a long time since i knew anything about contracting, but he’s likely to have to pay the employer’s NI contributions as well as his own and be responsible for calculating all his own taxes/saving money to pay tax when it is due.
Regarding the whole self employed thing have a look at IR35 to see if he really is self-employed. A lot of companies/contractors were using their set up as a tax dodge and HMRC have been cracking down it the last couple of years
Could be legit if done right and very benefical in terms of tax, but the downsides are lack of security, sick pay, holiday pay etc.
Hudson are a payment provider who get round IR35.
This is a growing market, lots of industrial/blue collar used to be cis or ltd company but were really in disguised employment, the IR35 reforms were meant to change this by shifting liability but companies like Hudson Contracts set up scope of works contracts (that pass paper inspection but reality differs...) to keep people self employed.
To answer a few questions;
He currently has a mixture of BTEC (extended diploma) in construction and A'levels (physics/maths)
The course he has a place on is Civil Engineering MEng - 4 years, with option for further 1 year placement either home or abroad.
I'm starting to get a feel for what is on the table jobwise - looks like they want to train him as a technician. No track record of supporting people to become chartered, and from what I understand little need for it in their current setup. This is my major concern at present, as it may lead to a ceiling on opportunities later on.
The self employed bit looks like an undesirable (from our perspective) workaround, although he has been sold the line it allows them to pay him more i.e. better hourly rate, but I dont think he has computed holidays, sick pay, pensions etc. I now understand IR35 and CIS a little better and the proposed workaround. Not a killer if he just went for a year but potentially bad news longer term. In some ways I'm less worried about this now.
I've had a chat with him, so will see how he responds. He reitterated that his heart is not in going to uni which seems a shame.
@joshvegas, what and where are you doing it? Graduate apprenticeship?
Don't want to derail the thread OP but maybe this will be of use. I'm in Scotland though so funding etc is very different.
I agree with Frank Conway up there putting off (or failing a maths degree) and going into the industry isn't really much fun. But one option he may not have considered is an graduate apprenticeship. I would say though that the points about uni this year being miserable are very valid.
I'm studying civil engineering at heriot watt uni. It's a four year course (again, Scotland = 3+1 for honours) I get one day off work a week to attend. The course is split 20 (one class) is full uni, attendance and whatever exams or coursework that class requires. 80 "on the job training" and submitting an academic report using worked examples that cover the outcome. The outcomes correlate to the equivalent full time outcomes.
Having done both full-time uni and this it's definitely better for some people especially the money side of things and the learning while working aspect can be good.
But it's not without issues. Some uni issues include. Splitting the work requirements like that has lead to us being dropped into some of the hardest classes to do exams without the preceding years build up. Some of the work based can be very difficult to achieve if your company is too specialised. It's not been a massive problem for me because I work in flooding and we cover most bases but it's kind of annoying when I have to do the class in hydraulics and hydrology in the classroom when I use it day in day out while having to struggle through composite bridge design on scraps. You also get bad weeks of work and uni deadlines... They suck the biggest of hairy balls.
There are three of us at my place. Me, a school leaver and a guy who started at 20 all graduate this year. The school leaver has been a total success after his 4 years he is going to be a very experienced graduate. His efforts have been rewarded with payrises etc and he is already very useful to the company and will be well on the way to his next steps rather having to learn what a job is.
The slight downside is they aren't covering a masters through it which is slightly annoying (we were the very first intake for the funding)
It's not a bad option but I do feel a bit sad that the young guy missed out on some of the uni experience and I don't just mean getting smashed and mad shagging.
If anyone has any questions give me a shout... We might actually be looking for another one.
Oh yeah technician to chartership... That's a long road. I considered it but I think nowadays it's a non starter the industry is weird it's screaming for technicians but it doesn't reflect that in its pay and alot of places you stay at the bottom or you creep up but get stuck with the grunt work because they can not being people in to do it.
This is all from consultancy side of things btw.
Most of the big water companies do graduate apprentice schemes
They also fund degrees for those who complete apprenticeships
A year of getting abused may make him appreciate his MEng a lot more.
Thats really useful @joshvegas
His aim originally was to get a graduate apprentiship so that was very much on the table from his perspective. He hasn't managed to identify one to this point.
Great BTEC results have resulted in lots of UCAS points (150+) - I encouraged the path to being chartered via MEng. I thought it important for him to maintain momentum.
Then this came up.
Whats the landscape like in terms of getting accepted to a graduate apprentiship? I think that would be ideal for his morale, I accept that full time study might make the course easier overall.
Whats the landscape like in terms of getting accepted to a graduate apprentiship? I think that would be ideal for his morale, I accept that full time study might make the course easier overall.
I don't really know because I had already been working for my employer when this opportunity came up.
However he can probably skip the first year like I did on previous learning especially if they are UCAS points. He's probably a good candidate as essentially he would be a year cheaper and has already proven aptitude. I would advise going in eyes open though some of the employers on the scheme a pulled some serious dick moves. "Making up the time" "not providing any work to match outcomes etc" all of which are very much not allowed but difficult to stop. A few guys walked and finished in different companies ( the Scottish system allows this and it also doesn't allow tying the apprenticeship) worth remembering that if they don't take an apprentice they have to pay the levee it's not so altruistic as some companies would make you think.
One stumbling block you may have is the money. He'll not be getting anywhere near 30k and that's going to look rubbish in comparison. Work out the true salary minus all the expenses etc and see how the paypackets match then?
Ta - just looked through what Severn Trent offer as some of their apprentiship positions are linked to degrees, although thin on detail.
re money - I thik if he didn't come out of a degree with large debts then that would help accomplish some of his aims.
This is my major concern at present, as it may lead to a ceiling on opportunities later on.
It absolutely will.
Much much harder to study part time on the job later.
Whatever he does, he has to go and get that MEng. Can you support him financially?
£30k seems like a million dollars when you are 20 but when you are 30 with a mortgage, car and realise you are gonna need a pension one day he will regret not getting the degree out of the way and missing those years of promotion in an organisation with a proper structure.
If he doesn't want to go to university yet he shouldn't go to university.
I went because everyone was telling me I should and I was 17 and stupid. Because I wasn't really that interested I graduated with a BSc rather than an honours degree and I reckon that has hindered my career more than if I'd just gotten an HND.
Had I gone to university when I was actually interested, ie, after I'd been working for a few years, then my career would be in far better shape.
All valid points - in the end he needs to decide. I just wanted to understand this offer a bit better, particularly as it is quite different to what I expected. Also helps to understand what other opportunities are out there. Hopefully we can advise and help him navigate these decisions to arrive at a solid plan.
We are able to support him through a degree, so fortunately thats not an issue.
Similarly to Joshvegas, I'm doing a graduate apprenticeship too, but also already in work so alightly different.
I had the option to do the standard part time Mechanical Engineering degree as work would have sponsored me no probs, but the GA looked like it suited me better, mainly because some of the subjects in 3rd and hons year suited my interests better.
Company were happy either way, but GA doesn't cost them anything. Just going into honours year now, no plan to get chartered as it seems way more involved than it sounds in civil, and once I've finished this, there's no way I'm going back to do a masters.
I didn't miss out 1st year, although I could have, and tbh it was the right decision as I'd have died doing 2nd year maths straight in at 43 years old.
Agree, not been a great time for studying, I hate the whole home learning thing, and it looks like this year will be the same, sadly.
On the whole, I'd recommend it though, it sounds like it would suit your son OP, if he can find an opportunity.
I wonder if he would be part of the CIS. He tells me he will be introduced to a firm called Hudson Contract who ‘manage this relationship’.
Yes, it will be CIS,and he will be self employed. I'd presume Hudson Contract are an 'umbrella' Company, who are the ones who will actually employ him. Nothing wrong with it really, a large proportion of building workers are on the same deal. I'm currently doing the same for a large council. One employer for 2 months now, but self employed, but, not actually self employed, as I've got a loose Contract with the Umbrella.
£30k is not a lot at the moment for short term staff. For a 20yo, it sounds pretty good. We have sparkies earning £40k at 21yo now. the typical pay for a qualified trade is around £23-25/hour recently, so a 50 hour week is £1k+ (no one does 40 hours!)
Contrary to many of the posts above I think that £30K sounds about right for a labourer working a 46 hour standard week at £12.50 per hour basic. I would expect the preferred payment provider to either offer an Umbrella PAYE option or Construction Industry Scheme (CIS) payment choice. On PAYE he will pay Income Tax and NI and on CIS he will have 20% deducted if he registers with HMRC. Both methods will probably offer an expenses offset for costs incurred. I would suggest he go PAYE for an easy life but CIS will probably be more tax efficient. From what I have seen it is harder to go back to studying once you have started working as you can get used to the money but I have seen people manage it.
Heart not in uni
That in itself is a fair reason to defer. We have 1 child whose motivation declined during A-levels due to No in-your-face teaching. Didn’t follow up on uni offers ‘why bother’. Now aiming to resit upper sixth.
The job sounds like BS, especially the ‘self-employed’ part but if there’s time, and interest, give it a go?
20 year old being offered a £30k salary with no experience sounds way too good to be true without any nepotism
IDK what the current young person’s job market is like. The description makes it sound like £30k would be some sort of ‘on target earnings’ value. But early 20s folks with no real job experience and 2:1 or 1 class degrees in STEM I’d think should expect >£35k. Back in the mid-2010s >£35 was typical for new graduates when I offered them a job.
If nothing else it’ll focus his mind on what he really wants from life and provide some motivation if he ends up going on to uni.
+1
My only thing to add is to remind him to "never put his finger where he wouldn't put his dick"*
AKA H&S is his problem as he is the one who'll be hurt/disfigured/dead, don't ignore it.
* - quote from senorj of this parish
I can understand the appeal of getting out of education, it's a treadmill if you aren't careful. I was done with exams and essays when I left university and Music was pretty practical . I'd say that doing this for a year (one year only) then going back to uni would be a good call because I wouldn't bank a future on this employer : because it'd chop you and not think twice if the owner lost a contract or two.
Whats the landscape like in terms of getting accepted to a graduate apprentiship? I think that would be ideal for his morale, I accept that full time study might make the course easier overall.
They are very hotly contested. Both of my sons are doing one, my youngest started his on Monday.
It was incredibly hard to get one, I think they had a couple of hundred apply for the MOD schemes. He must have applied for 15 in total and got an offer for a software engineering degree apprenticeship. It was a three stage interview process with the final stage being an all day assessment with presentations etc.