[Closed] Anybody live in France? (Country-down-the-drain content).

The difference is that the UK had a reality check in the form of Margaret Thatcher. France has never experienced anything similar. In economic and political terms, France is en chute libre.

🙂

And yet 'socialist nightmare' France still rates higher than the UK on quality of life indices. Hmmm...

I'm posting this from Paris. There is certainly some truth in that piece. France is heavily reliant upon state employment either directly or indirectly (car companies are shadow supported by the state). The unions still have huge influence.

The flip side is that they still have all the small shops with local employment that we used to, laws protect them from the big ogre style chains that we've seen dominate in the uk. The quality of their food is streets ahead of the uk as their local agriculture has been protected as its highly valued by the people.

Taxes are high but so are social benefits like unemployment and I personally think their health service is quite a bit better than ours. Wages are lower than the UK but the cost of living including housing is cheaper.

Immigration from Eastern Europe is a major concern for those in centre and right, the left is encouraging it as its more votes for them. There are multiple wooden shanty towns around the Peripherique, it's like a mini version of those In South Africa outside the major cities. I'm sure I'll get flamed on this thread like others for pointing this out but these are not towns populated by French citizens.

Hollande is further damaging the country with his policies, not all is lost in France but you certainly fear for the country if he's re-elected.

Is perhaps just a tiny bit possible that [s]Corporate whore bag news[/s] City AM news might have some bias?

Woppit, it's cause they have lost faith in god. 😆

City AM a London paper with a bias.. probably.

But then again, guess they are preaching to the converted... what with London being France's 6th largest city !!

That little fact proabably says a lot on it's own.

Pretty much what Jambalaya said.
I am still amazed how Hollande has made himself less popular that Sarkozy, I didn't think it was possible.

One of the letters struck a chord

The never-mentioned elephant in the room (at least among the French journalists I read) is that there have now been two generations raised to believe that everyone can work for the state

A good friend works in admin at the local university where, in his department, he is the only person to have previously worked in the private sector. He often gets berated if he starts a new task in the late afternoon, because 'it isn't how they do things in the public service'

My French friends have been telling me for years that France is "foutue".

Imagine a society where people don't work too hard. Where the unions exert strong influence. Where people get out and protest, often inconveniencing everybody in the process by withdrawing their labour or blocking the roads. Where students actually stage proper sit-ins. Sounds ****ing awful, so it does.

It sounds like a country where the people have a large say in how the country is run rather than a country where we work to ensure that the highly paid financial sector remain so.

And their national anthem isn't a dirge.

+1 ^^^

Frankly, I can't fathom why anybody would want to live in such a place.

Frankly, I can't fathom why anybody would want to live in such a place.

it's full of hairy ladies and cheese eating surrender monkeys?

It's certainly seemed like a post-apocalyptic hellhole whenever I've visited.

Frankly, I can't fathom why anybody would want to live in such a place.

Yep, its crap. Currently in the South and the weather is horrendously sunny, the trails are way worse than anything in the UK (and too dusty), the council run DH and BMX tracks are rubbish and everyone is asking if they should move to Surrey!

I spent 2 years in Bordeaux working for a part owned French/English Bank, it was fabulous, some of the best times in my life TBH. I could put up with the attitude towards Staff and Corporates, the working life and social life of the French seems streets ahead of that we have here. As for Taxes and such, well you get what you pay for.
Is it going down the pan? No I very much doubt it but some of thier social policies do grate the attitudes of the rest of the EU, but then I think it's more to do with a smatter of jealousy.

It's certainly seemed like a post-apocalyptic hellhole whenever I've visited.

Quite. I once asked for an Argentinian Malbec like any self respecting gent would do to accompany his seared venison and blackberries but the best they could do was a Bordeaux.

The comments to his followup article are mostly reasonable

http://www.cityam.com/article/1389748116/french-embassy-s-strange-attack-me-misses-point

"presse de caniveau"

As a dual national its easy to see faults on both sides .

from a "state of the nation" point of view the UK is much more of a disgrace on so many levels

And yet 'socialist nightmare' France still rates higher than the UK on quality of life indices. Hmmm...

@crikey it's a democracy just like we have, we had a fair mix of governments over the past 20 years. The UK has used the financial services industry as a key competitive advantage internationalky and a huge soure of tax revenue, Governments of all colours have recognised this. That sector cntributes employee taxes/NI of 60%-75%. The Fench anthem is fabulous, the opening verse talks about raising the "battle flag of blood" and later how the fields will be nourished by the blood of their enemies.

The UK has used the financial services industry as a key competitive advantage internationalky and a huge soure of tax revenue

So our quality of life has been improved but still isn't as good as the French?

how the fields will be nourished by the blood of their enemies.

So they're better at recycling as well?

Come back to me when the Tour of Britain has its' first 3 stages in France, Oui?

@grum I would agree their quality of life is better, the question is whether they can afford it.

I wouldn't take a load of scare-mongering stories in right-wing newspapers (which is most newspapers) as evidence they can't afford it. Whenever anyone vaguely socialist comes along there's a massive propaganda campaign against them by the oligarchy-owned media.

So here are some of the facts that the French embassy didn’t mention (see more here). The World Economic Forum’s (WEF) Global Competitiveness Report 2013-2014 ranks France as the 130th worst country (out of just 148) for its regulatory burden. France places just 71st for overall labour market efficiency, 116th for labour market flexibility and 83rd for efficiency of government spending. The IMD’s 2013 World Competitiveness Rankings feature France as one of the biggest fallers since 1997.

I'd take higher quality of life over high rankings in any of those indices, thanks.

Also, as someone points out in the comments - France actually ranks 23rd overall in the WEF's Global Competitiveness Report - nice bit of selective use of statistics there.

Quite. I once asked for an Argentinian Malbec like any self respecting gent would do to accompany his seared venison and blackberries but the best they could do was a Bordeaux.

How ghastly.

My brother has lived over there for the past 7 years, and he finds it terrible not having a mortgage due to realistic house prices, terrible health service that means you get an appointment with a specialist within a few days if needed, awful food and wine; terrible work to the point where he is fully booked up for the next two years, awful schooling insofar as his child has to be taught in a ratio of 6 students to one teacher and to make things worse he has to suffer with living 2 hours from a ski resort.......

He really struggles to get it when he looks at the UK work culture and compares it to his new life......

Sounds shit to me, I'd much rather work longer and harder to keep the financial institutions in six figure salaries, whilst they suck as much money out of the country as they can.

yet ( according to the program i heard on Radio 4 the other day ) they have a higher suicide rate than us.

death by cheese and wine?

There is no better country for the term - champagne socialism! France is ruled by a self-servicing elite that makes our Oxbridge PPE mafia look inclusive!!!! Hollande's policy mix is ill-judged and ineffective and the polls speak for themselves. What an absurd muddle over taxation.

Despite that I enjoyed living in Paris in the 90s despite the dog shit everywhere. Fresh food bought every day, a civilised lunch of cheval/frites 😉 , un quart du rouge et une tarte au citron, and my existential chats with the newspaper seller at the end of the road!!! Oh and watching my boss do "an Hollande" every lunchtime without any comments from the rest if the office. La Vie Parisienne!

Oh, and I would still take a fine, white burgundy over any other white wine in the world.

N.b. it is Alistair Heath and City AM so appropriate filters are required!!!!

I wouldn't take a load of scare-mongering stories in right-wing newspapers (which is most newspapers) as evidence they can't afford it. Whenever anyone vaguely socialist comes along there's a massive propaganda campaign against them by the oligarchy-owned media.

That doesn't explain why Hollande has decided to cut taxes, though.

@crikey the French have a gentler way of life, they don't work as long hours, more holidays, they have greater job security, they can buy a decent bottle of wine for €4 🙂 ... the UK is a richer country but it's a tougher existence.

@grum look at the French budget deficit. I don't read any papers except the Guardian.

@Del suicides do seem to be an issue, as the French economy modernises a lot of people are struggling with the fact they don't have a job for life also youth unemployment is a big issue as the employment laws favour the employee so much companies won't take risks on hiring young people.

I just love how they berated Sarkozy for being a capitalist pig, then vote in Hollande and suddely its a socialist dictatorship.

They have a name for that kind of person: "Eternelle insatisfaite", quite fitting.

It's not rocket science why he has made a volte-face over taxes. In his own words two days ago:

“It is imperative that France restores the power of its economy. There is no time to lose. France must rebound to retain its influence in the world and in Europe,” he said.

The heady combination of uncompetitive taxes, red tape and inflexible labour markets just might not be working to plan. Peut-etre? Oh and the lowest ratings of any post-war president!!!

The juxtaposition of modern politics always raises a smile. So this week we have one European leader speaking of:

“excesses” and “abuses” in the social welfare system and said he was “certain that we can do more by spending less”.

...and without a capitalist bone in his body. Incroyable!!!

...and without a capitalist bone in his body. Incroyable!!!

The previous (left wing, Spanish) PM here had to do something similar, the current (right wing) PM has been forced to raise taxes. It's almost starting to make me think voting is a waste of time 😥

The next thing we shall see mogrim will be income trends where the top 10% suffer the worst and the bottom 10% gain the most in a (cough) capitalist/RW driven economy.....oh, wait a minute?!?!

The next thing we shall see mogrim will be income trends where the top 10% suffer the worst and the bottom 10% gain the most in a (cough) capitalist/RW driven economy.....oh, wait a minute?!?!

I'll believe that the day I see a Spanish politician apologising for something.

I wake every morning and thank the good lord above for Margaret Thatcher saving us from the living waking hell that is France!

@crikey the French have a gentler way of life, they don't work as long hours, more holidays, they have greater job security, they can buy a decent bottle of wine for €4 ... the UK is a richer country but it's a tougher existence.

Ah, I see.

You mean that France is a better place to live, but only if you are a human being?

sounds like and absolutely fabulous place to live, when are we moving??? 🙂

I'd live there - losing my job so could just sell up and buy a far cheaper place out there and not worry too much about income. Wife would never go for it though.

I like the sound of it too. We never had a revolution so have never got rid of the top layer of society that we all are beholding to. If a Maggie equivalent appeared in France they would burn her.

Kind of sums it up - great place if you are elderly and/or wanting la vie tranquille! Eurostat data shows its one of the best places to be old in, in terms of economic well-being. Downside will be all those suppositories. Have they never heard of oral medicine!?!

teamhurtmore - Member

Kind of sums it up - great place if you are elderly and/or wanting la vie tranquille! Eurostat data shows its one of the best places to be old in, in terms of economic well-being. Downside will be all those suppositories. Have they never heard of oral medicine!?!

Strange thing is my Mother has moved back from France after living there for 15 years and says how much cheaper many things are here, just not houses.

We never had a revolution so have never got rid of the top layer of society that we all are beholding to

Well we did chop off a King's head 140 years before the French did in a civil war mainly driven by the middle class against a [i]soi-disant [/i]absolute monarch.

We never had a revolution so have never got rid of the top layer of society that we all are beholding to

Well we did chop off a King's head 140 years before the French did in a civil war mainly driven by the middle class against a [i]soi-disant [/i]absolute monarch.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22985889 ]This is quite interesting as to why the French are so miserable despite all their advantages[/url]

[url= http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/movies/2013/03/glad-to-be-unhappy-the-french-case.html ]This too[/url]

Well we did chop off a King's head 140 years before the French did in a civil war mainly driven by the middle class against a soi-disant absolute monarch.

And then kicked out another one a few years later when he got a bit uppity.

Have they never heard of oral medicine!?!

Of course. But once you get your head round it, waiting the extra 15 minutes for your painkillers to start working just seems a bit slow.

also iirc france had an unusually low rate of intentional paracetemol overdose (ie for suicidal/parasuicidal purposes) because you either had to dissolve loads of sachets into litres and litres of water, or pop a dozen suppositories in. 😯

We had a lie in this morning, Madame doesn't work on Friday and I don't work. Offspring went off to an excellent state school. Glorious sunshine and 13°C so we cycled to the pool through relatively bike-tolerant traffic to a free swim session. When my coffee is finished I'll wax some skis and we'll catch the bus up to the resort, 1e for the 55km. Life is good down the drain.

There was a thread about an equally down-beat article on Britain being down the drain on STW yesterday, it seems most of you are doing very well in that drain too. I voted for Sarkozy but Hollande is being cornered into Schroeder-like centre-right policies that might just improve matters. He's too busy shagging a bitchy journalist and mafia film star to do much harm anyhow.

France doesn't have a lethal dose of paracetamol in one box either Julien - [url= https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11002388 ]paracetamol[/url]

Offspring went off to an excellent state school.

My mum has spent time in a variety of French schools, and doesn't rate the education system much!

Please note I'm not anti-France in any way, it's a lovely place and I'd live and work there if my French was better.

Well we did chop off a King's head 140 years before the French did in a civil war mainly driven by the middle class against a soi-disant absolute monarch.

its true but somehow we are all still driven by the victorian work ethic that frogs seem to have got rid of, there are no lords and masters. Its good I think. Why do you think the yanks hate them so much...

Edukator, yep life goes on despite politicians best efforts to mess it all up!!

Julian, an unpleasant idea (suicide) made even worse!!!! 😉

Funny that suicide should be raised

Despite their quality of life being so much better, the French suicide rate is about double that in the UK...

Edukator, is it still the case that you can't buy paracetemol just anywhere nowadays? When I lived there, the only places you could get them (and indeed anything better than a cough sweet!) in our 3,500-populated 2-supermarketed mountain town were the 2 pharmacies.

also:

I voted for Sarkozy

He's too busy shagging a bitchy journalist and mafia film star to do much harm anyhow.

Perhaps paracetamol (and soap?*) are not chic enough?

The number of pharmacies, hairdressers, tabacs and (horse) butchers on most streets made me think that France was a nation of vain, chain-smoking hypochondriacs with odd eating habits!! 😉 Still they opened up my love of smelly cheeses.

* hide the wiff with lashings of roger et gallet!!

Despite their quality of life being so much better, the French suicide rate is about double that in the UK...

I am assuming rather than just looking in wikipedia, you have also factored in:
-proportion of rural/isolated communities.
-the scope and strength of both counties mental health legslation.
-understanding/education about mental heath issues ie likelhood to seek help.
-cultural values/norms which inform that sort of maladaptive behaviour. Ie do you drink yourself to death, become a hermit or get it over with quickly?
-the way in which inquests take place and deaths are recorded: ie how many go down as 'misadventure' or 'open verdict'.

Scandinavian countries are also known for their high rates of suicide. I suppose that casts a shadow over their quality of life too?
Meanwhile if you had a more reliable/comparable way of recording deaths in the third/developing world you would still find their suicide rate to be markedly lower.

Funny that suicide should be raised

Funny?

Despite their quality of life being so much better, the French suicide rate is about double that in the UK...

Have a quick google (saves me the hassle posting images for you) - you'll find this for quite a few countries with a better quality of life than in the UK. I dunno, maybe they use other factors as well as suicide rates when they measure stuff like this. Whaddya think?

thm, presence/visibility of lots of tabacs is partly cos they all seem to smoke (the percentage of smoking teenagers is way higher than over here, even before UK's public places smoking ban raising the age to 18, and only beaten by the spanish iirc) but also cos you can't just pop out and buy fags in the petrol station, corner shop or the supermarket. (although you can have a licence to be a 'tabac' and sell other things too). Again in my little town there were 7 bars (and 2 ski shops amongst other things) but only 2 places to buy fags.

edit:

roger er gallet

Julian, I almost substituted bars for tabac in my post!!

The joys of the local shops (even in the middle of Paris), not having lunch at my desk and my philosophical morning chats (with my weak French) with the paper seller every morning are what I miss most about France! Tescos or even Waitrose versus the patsisserie, boulangerie, fromagerie. It's not a fair contest!!!

You can only get paracetamol from a pharmacien, the on-line sale of drugs law has also been blocked despite EU directives.

IME deaths recorded as suicide here aren't really what I'd call suicide. One guy I knew killed himself in an advanced state of AIDS and another had cancer. Luis Ocaña was recorded as a suicide but only had days/weeks to live when he shot himself as he was suffering from terminal liver cancer related to the hepatitis C he picked up from a blood transfusion.

Joyful stuff this, it really is a splendid day outside.

The joys of the local shops (even in the middle of Paris)

London's got plenty of local shops. One of the things I like about it 🙂

But I take your point. The fact that you need to buy fresh bread every day could be a blessing or curse I think.

I suppose that casts a shadow over their quality of life too?

So, quality of life isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, great - glad we're all agreed that its use as a determinator of how good somewhere is to live is limited

Which sort of weakens its previous use by commentators in this discussion as a justification of why France is a great place to live really, doesn't it 😐

I haven't been into my local bar tabac since they did away with the vignette.

So, quality of life isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, great

Yeah who cares about quality of life when you are high up in the global competitiveness index? 🙄

Perhaps it means that suicide rates aren't actually all that important (or easy to quantify) in the grand scheme of things.

So, quality of life isn't that important in the grand scheme of things

That's not what he said. Have another read.

Then come back with another straw man.

As a French expat living in the UK, I find France very expensive when we go and visit family. 10 years ago it was the other way round.
But I do miss the way of life. Would go back tomorrow if I could.

Merde alors, tout comme nous amusions. suffisamment svp!! les poissons ne mordent pas aujourd'hui. aller troller ailleurs svp.

D'acc. à+

To echo some comments above France is a great place to live, work in a normal job or to be retired. It is not a good place to start or run a business or a place to earn a lot of money. As for the revolution stripping out the elite that's quite incorrect, there is a huge and deeply established elite in France which is much worse than in the UK in my view. In France where you went to University still matters in your 50's, in the UK opportunity is far more egalitarian.

@teamhurtmore we'll have to compare notes before my next trip to Borgogne, 1er Cru Puligny Montrachet for €20 euro and "everyday" 1er Cru St Aubin / Mersault / St Roman for €10, normal wines for €6 - we've been making a decent dent in the stocks so need a refresh.

@chris - I'm surprised I still find it cheaper here (Paris) vs London even at 1.20 vs 1.45 of a few years ago. Clearly it's not as cheap as it was in the 80's mind but thats a distant memory and reflects the decline of the UK.

@Edukator - very jealous sounds perfect

@molgrips if you want to buy bread full of preservatives you can do so in the super/hypermarket. The French seem to have got the balance right between big and small shops. It still drives me nuts that the small shops are closed at lunchtime though, just when most customers are on the their "2 hour lunchbreak"

Does seem to me that for years, various countries have been criticised for not being succesful at chasing the capitalist dream... But now it turns out, we're all in the same crap regardless of whether or not everyone works 60 hour weeks for 10p an hour, or spends every friday drinking champagne and having affairs. So more fool us. All talk about affordability right now ends up at the same conclusion, nobody can afford anything, and anything we can afford today, we can't afford for our kids.

Maybe the best option is to just bimble along in the wake of others, doing pretty much what you want and not caring whether you're a success by other people's metrics... Then every 50 or 100 years something happens to upset the order anyway, war or revolution or industrialisation or financial armageddon, and the scoreboards get reset.

it's full of hairy ladies and cheese eating surrender monkeys

Indeed
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cchris2lou - how come you can't go back? Did you desert from the Foreign Legion? 😀

Wife is english and doesnt want to move .

Between France and here, there's no contest surely?

When we were kids my dad used to spend every other week working in Lille, as a French firm were subcontracting for a project he was managing. He always came back telling us how the French had their priorities absolutely sorted in all the ways we got them wrong. After many visits over there over the years, I'm absolutely and completely in agreement with him!

You should hear my dad speak fluent french in a ridiculously broad Lancashire accent too. Its priceless!! 😆

Quite. I once asked for an Argentinian Malbec like any self respecting gent would do to accompany his seared venison and blackberries but the best they could do was a Bordeaux.

Burgundy with venison.

It would help if she could speak the language. She can understand most of it but cannot speak.
I'll go back one day.

It took only two days after the Hollande affair broke for a French car hire company to run an advert suggesting the president should hire one of their cars with tinted windows instead of embarrassing himself on the back of a scooter .

Trails over here not so dusty at the moment but hey it won't be long!

@binners - has your dad seen Bienvenie chez les chi'tis ? Thoroughly recommended especially given his experience with a good does of North/South divide humour. Email if you care for version with English subtitles