[Closed] Any planning experts in? Not sure whether to take no for an answer...

depends where you are.

If you live in south Worcestershire you can do what the * you like right now because the councillors & council officers are a bunch of incompetent ** and don't have a housing policy in place at the moment so it's a developer's free-for-all.

The council should have a Local Plan which will indicate areas where they will be encouraging development. Would be worth looking a that as well as seeing if anyone else has built similar properties in the local area.

Essex. Braintree district council. Rural location, on the outskirts of a small historic village.

Find out if that 'guideline' is actually inclued in their local development plan, or just a rule of thumb.

I imagine if the officers that definite from the off then you'd have to put a lot of effort into getting it to committee and agreed, as any application would go with recommendation to refuse.

The local plan will show which policies apply to your proposed site. If you're going to apply then you need to show that your house complies with their policies, and if it comes to a formal application they (and all the NIMBY neighbours) need to show why it doesn't comply with the same policies if they're refusing permission.

Worth asking any local planning experts (not the LA) and also check if there are any restrictions on the current house. Research first to get your facts together before an application.
Do it help you live/work in the local area and perhaps look after family in future?

I think the plan you are looking for is called the unitary development plan.
Search for the one for your area.

Thanks for the replies.
I just located the councils "Core Strategy" document and read it.
My location is outside the "village envelope" and hence is officially in what they term "Countryside".
They have a very short section on Countryside development which simply says:

"Development outside town development boundaries, village
envelopes and industrial development limits will be strictly
controlled to uses appropriate to the countryside, in order to
protect and enhance the landscape character and biodiversity,
geodiversity and amenity of the countryside."

I am guessing that my dwelling does not meet these criteria (although I'm struggling to think of anything which actually would).
Seems like a non-starter then 🙁

I am not a planner or architect, but we recently had an extension approved in a conservation area. The planners emailed our architects many times outlining that it would rejected and what we needed to change to get it passed. Our advisors were not phased by this, we stuck to our guns and it got approved despite them telling us it would not.
I think they like to try and talk/intimidate you out of doing it when maybe you might well be within the rules, its just they don't like the idea..
We used an architect and planning consultant, spent about £700 in total. Our planning consultant is ex council planning so knew all the tricks.
Local councils will use a design guide, which you can get a copy of, so this helps you to get started. [b]But my real advice is talk to a local expert outwith of the council planners.[/b]

Thanks dbcooper - good advice

Thanks dbcooper - good advice

Unless you're the poor sod next door who has their house devalued as a result.

Granted you are talking about something that probably won't impact someone else, but in other cases 'knowing the tricks' to get your own way might not be without impact on others.

Just saying, like.

Some friends own a plot of land, 4th in a row of 5. All the others have houses and outbuildings, as do the couple of large plots opposite, some have business and residential use. But they can't get planning permission as it's outside the village boundary, and therefore not in the development plan. Crazy really as the empty plot looks like a missing tooth. Just biding their time. A change of councillors would help.

[quote=franksinatra ]The council should have a Local Plan

😆

Though even here in South Worcestershire permission has been refused at appeal because the site was in open countryside away from any settlement - if you have a basic issue like that then you're unlikely to be able to get permission, even with the current planning laws, even if there is no local plan and however clever your consultant might be.

A huge multi million pound glass bottle factory was built in cheshire without the planning permission on the site of two power stations, council threw toys out of planning box, but it still got through, now employs hundreds and well done to them.

Build a house its family land and say sod em.

Don't forget the planning regs are there so we can cycle in the country side. I'm not saying planners are always right, but they are trying to protect the country side we all enjoy.

The local plan shouldn't specifically exclude individual and small scale developments in the "countryside" areas (although it should offer a degree of protection from entire fields being turned into estates). They might regard additional one off homes as "windfall" for purposes of meeting their housing targets, but in all reality one house isn't going to matter one way or the other in terms of figures.

You should be able to check if there is a neighbourhood plan in place, and if not you might even be able to become responsible for the neighbourhood planning under the NPPF (using localism legislation the way it was intended)

The current permitted development rights for building extensions are pretty generous - could you make that work?

"Build a house its family land and say sod em."

As you watch it being demolished by the Council when they take enforcement action

Most local plans that I have read explicitly state new development should not occur in the countryside areas, except for "uses appropriate to the countryside" which generally means uses that are required for the rural economy. I think that's pretty normal. Exceptions would be, for example, farmers or equestrian owners who need to be available on site at all hours, or perhaps accommodation to recreational facilities like outward bound centres.

This is a major stumbling block imo, unless you hold employment that requires you to be located there.

Additionally you need to think about how the proposed house would fit in to its surroundings - it is a very different prospect to build on a garden at the end of a dead end road with no public rights of way around, than to build next door to a neighbour or a main road where you would disrupt the vista of the landscape (public amenity) and potentially access to light, amongst other planning considerations.

If you simply need somewhere to live affordably, can you ask about temporary accommodation in caravans on the site? East Cambs allow people to live within the curtilage of a property as long as the house provides the main use (i.e. kitchen, main bathroom). Or as above, look to extend the house.

just keep appealing, and dont let them on the land, quite a lot of people win their appeals.

If it's against local development policy then (unless you're Tesco's or a developer with lots of funds and a whole department of planning experts to throw at the problem) then forget it - planning officers are normally proper jobsworths and won't bend the rules.

quite a lot of people win their appeals.

and spend a vast sum of money, stress and workload in the process.

I also meant to say that another (very good imo) reason that you might not get planning permission in your situation is because it would set a precendent. Although each application would be assessed on its own merit, once one proposal has been given an exception, it tends to open the flood gates for similar proposals (where there might not be as good a reason for the exception but the precedent stands). This is particularly true of the south where house prices mean a very substantial payout in return for your back garden.

As I said, ideally you need to show that your employment requires you to be located there.

Thanks for the input everyone.
Having read more about it now it seems very unlikely that permission for a new dwelling would be granted in this location under the current guidelines.

The mobile home route is interesting though... looking into that now.

[quote=oliverd1981 ]using localism legislation the way it was intended

I'm fairly sure the intention was for it to look good, but not be used.

[url= http://planningblog.org/about-me/ ]I can help if you'd like.[/url]

I hope aracer will vouch...

Isn't there some stealth way of doing it....something like you build a stable/hen house with toilet or something, then after 7 years or so apply for change of use and then extend for accommodation? Someone told me this works in rural area. (Local chap refused PP for mansion on farm land , just built huge hen farm, hardly any hens in it at the mo)

[quote=stimpy ]I can help if you'd like.
I hope aracer will vouch...

Indeed - I only pretend to know about planning law, stimpy actually does.

Fantombiker - somebody tried something like that near here, I think the building was officially a garage, they were made to pull it down.

Think you'll find it's 10 years for established use for a dwelling.

A friend built a house in his in-laws' garden. Fine until the divorce when sorting out who owned and got what was complicated. He ended up with the house and part of the plot and still has the in-laws as neighbours while his ex lives in peace miles from the mess.

@dbc: that ws an extension to an existing home, which does has certain rights. Your architects were probably told in the first place that an acceptable plan might be OK, they just had to keep altering the plan to fit in with what the planners would accept.

OP - if the planner has said no that quickly then I'd probably forget it. Your money though so fill your boots.

You can search for things which have been given permission, or are under consider, in your area [url= http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/wps/portal/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hzF0tnJydDRwN3_yBnA08jT6dACwtPIwNnU6B8JG55A1OKdBsQ0B0Oci1-2_HKG0DkDXAARwN9P4_83FT9SP0oc4QpBkbBpkBTjM19PIM8DA0sTPUjc1LTE5Mr9QtyQyMMMgMyAh0VFQFL2RKR/dl3/d3/L0lJSklna2tra0EhIS9JTmpBQU15QUJFUkNKS28hLzRGR2dzbzBWdnphOTJBZyEvN183RDlDQkIxQTAwMlM1MEkyMzdMSVJIMTA4NS9zYS5zZWxlY3RUb3duUmVzdWx0/ ]here[/url]. See if anything similar to your idea has gone through recently.

I'd also be asking the council planners what the hell "appropriate to the countryside" actually means.

[quote=aracer ]Fantombiker - somebody tried something like that near here, I think the building was officially a garage, they were made to pull it down.

Here we go - not exactly pull it down, but close
http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9976298.Woman_loses_bid_to_keep_house____hidden____in_garage/?ref=rc

[quote=CaptJon ]I'd also be asking the council planners what the hell "appropriate to the countryside" actually means.

Preferably using those exact words. Though I think we've already covered that issue anyway.

Am loving some of the responses to the OP.

As mentioned OP, [url= http://planningblog.org/about-me/ ]if you'd like to chew it over I can help.[/url]

Cheers aracer - still trying to find time in the work diary to get up for a ride!

Mainly good advice here but main point is that planners tend to say 'no' first and then ask 'what is the question?'

You really cannot be put off by one non binding meeting like you had. you need to speak to a local planning consultant / architect and then if they are helpful, spend a few £'00 making an application. The officer may we have been correct but he may have trying to fob you off. Spending money is the only way to find out. you will never find a site as cheap as your parent's garden!

A new home in a garden help meet their quota (v marginally), is arguably on brownfield land and may be v close to the village envelope.

[quote=hh45 ]Spending money is the only way to find out.

Alternatively you could always check what the local plan says, whether the council has a 5 year housing land supply (hence whether everything in the local plan applies or para 14 of NPPF applies) etc. - certainly no need for an application to work out whether the applicable rules say yay or nay.

A new home in a garden help meet their quota (v marginally), is arguably on brownfield land

😆

sharkbait - Member
@dbc: that ws an extension to an existing home, which does has certain rights. Your architects were probably told in the first place that an acceptable plan might be OK, they just had to keep altering the plan to fit in with what the planners would accept.

Is that whappened? Thanks for that insight. Can I ask how you know, are you on my local council?

I'm just wondering if it was a conspiracy between you and my architects becasue the plan they submitted originally is exactly the same as the plan that was approved. You sneaky bunch.

Aracer I foresee a new career in planning opening up before you... 😀

OP I would very strongly suggest speaking to someone who actually works in planning (and who isn't a planner with your local council).

If you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait until you hire an amateur...

My experience is that it was not that expensive, about 700 including the planning fee and they provided more/better than I asked for.

That's the point dbcooper.

Yup, I was backing your point.

Misreading the tone of your comment FTW 😆

[i]Unless you're the poor sod next door who has their house devalued as a result.

Granted you are talking about something that probably won't impact someone else, but in other cases 'knowing the tricks' to get your own way might not be without impact on others.

Just saying, like.

[/i]

As my Father told me many years ago, the only way to make sure that no one changes the view from your window, is to own the view 🙂

As my Father told me many years ago, the only way to make sure that no one changes the view from your window, is to own the view

Sadly true.

You can flame me for being a NIMBY if you like, but what this often boils down to is one person wanting to get their own way, and someone else wanting the opposite (by preserving the status quo). Talk of 'tricks' etc just hint at people riding roughshod over the wishes of others and trapping them in rapidly devaluing homes. Phrases like "it will enhance the local area" and "it won't affect you" are often just meaningless platitudes whilst people barge in and do what the hell they like.

Still, so long as the tories are in government everything will be for sale and the spivs and speculators will have a field day.

When it's gone it's gone, but hey if you make a big pile of cash in the process then it is all OK.

For the record, the OP doesn't sound like this - it is just all the talk of 'tricks' and 'employing' ex planning officers turned 'consultant' that makes this all sound a bit unethical.

Mobile homes are your answer.

Presuming you want somewhere to live over investment

You can get lovely contempory ones these days.... no planning needed, and up in weeks rather than months.

www.ecomobilehomes.com/

I'm a chartered town planner working for a planning consultancy and frequently deal these enquiries.

Drop me a line via my email address (in profile) and I could give you a heads-up if you would like?

Well I think you misunderstand my post entirely. Note I said this:

I think they like to try and talk/intimidate you out of doing it when maybe you might well be [b]within the rules[/b], its just they don't like the idea..
We used an architect and planning consultant, spent about £700 in total. Our planning consultant is ex council planning so knew all the tricks.

Hence the tricks I was referring to, were knowing what the sneaky chaps in planning would do to try and stop you from doing what planning law says you are legally allowed to do. In my case the planners tried to intimidate my architects into backing down, but they, and our planning advisor, know what is legally permissable and had designed the plans to be legally permissable. So we did not budge and in the end the planning was approved without any change.

Secondly I am entirely unconvinced that a tasteful extension next door will devalue your home. Any verifiable evidence? I am also unconvinced that it is right and fair that you should be able to prevent someone from making alteration to make their home better, because of some unfounded view that it will de-value your home. The value of a home is in what it is like to live in. Which applies equally to both parties.

If you've got the funds and the tenacity to fight and fight you can get what you want.

national park here with "strict" rules on extensions and redevelopments, designed to stop rich people coming in a turning every building into a mansions therefore protecting housing for normal folk from the area, good idea with good intentions.

A few years back a guy bought a 2/3 bed bungalow with a bit of land, it's now valued at about £2,000,000, he fought and fought and fought, threw money and lawyers at the problem and the national park\council gave up because it couldn't afford to fight him any more.

if that's not you then sound like it's unlikely imho

Secondly I am entirely unconvinced that a tasteful extension next door will devalue your home. Any verifiable evidence? I am also unconvinced that it is right and fair that you should be able to prevent someone from making alteration to make their home better, because of some unfounded view that it will de-value your home. The value of a home is in what it is like to live in. Which applies equally to both parties.

Try selling your house when someone next door is doing this kind of work and you will see it devalue in front of your eyes.

It doesn't necessarily have to be something that offends the current householder - if potential buyers are put off or emboldened to haggle harder then the effect will be immediate, and quantifiable. To pretend that it is otherwise is just wishful thinking I'm afraid.

And anyway, you would say that, wouldn't you - as you are in the 'pro' camp......................

equally i could park an old car in my drive and have the same effect danny H

yeah its total bunkum. You are being paranoid, why would next door having work done put off a buyer? Again where is your evidence?

[i]It doesn't necessarily have to be something that offends the current householder - if potential buyers are put off or emboldened to haggle harder then the effect will be immediate, and quantifiable. To pretend that it is otherwise is just wishful thinking I'm afraid. [/i]

When we lived in Germany I remember chatting to someone about planning and the like, the key thing there was permission and building regs; what it looked like was pretty irrelevant - as they say, the owner has to live there, look at it, and 'account' for their investment. And taste is an individual thing.

The one time we went for planning that was refused, we'd already got all our neighbours on board, but the councils' reason was along the lines of 'everyone will do that', so no. Modern estate 'L' shaped house, and filling in the 'L' with an extra bedroom and bigger kitchen.

yeah its total bunkum. You are being paranoid, why would next door having work done put off a buyer? Again where is your evidence?

You know **** all about my situation, mate, so save the mindless platitudes for the person you are going to screw over next.

[i]You know **** all about my situation, mate, so save the mindless platitudes for the person you are going to screw over next. [/i]

and people wonder why they don't allow citizens to vote on specific decisions..., see above 🙄

is it the extension thats causing the devaluation or the neighbour dispute thats causing it?

Yeah, I know, but my situation is getting to me.

You know what, if it all goes through ok (and I get what I want), then I will be fine. No one will have been 'hurt' in the process because I can say, hand on heart, that I have (stupidly probably) played with a straight bat all the way through. Other parties have not, they have been snide, sneaky and outright dishonest.

But that is what it is all about, isn't it? Getting your own way. At least I will be able to know that I haven't employed any sly tactics, brinkmanship or lied outright to anyone.

is it the extension thats causing the devaluation or the neighbour dispute thats causing it?

I'd rather not discuss the details on here right now as things are delicately balanced. We should know in the next 2-3 working days whether everything is going to pan out for us or not. If it doesn't I will be left with a devastated missus and two young kids who were mega excited about the move very disappointed. As well as (most likely) having to live next door to the people who have screwed things up for us.

I apologise for being aggro above. My initial point was just to try to emphasise that other people are often affected when people get the "yay, we've got some cash, let's extend" bug. But I let myself down by being a snappy bastard.

When we know which way the pieces have fallen I can give you chapter and verse if you like, but you can take my word for it that whatever the outcome I am the one who has behaved honestly. It is this feeling that I am being stupid and naive by being straight with people that is really, really getting to me.

tbh i can sympathise with you in a way - they have planning applications lodged for 9 new houses opposite me ....

ive adopted a live and let live attitude to it as i knew they were going in before i moved in ..... how ever - me and 7 of my neighbours own the communual septic tank they planned to tap into.... without that they have to bring in mains sewers from about 4 miles to meet planning requirements.

anyway - im the first to admit id hate to live opposite me and look at my garden - i make rednecks look good !

And the first complaint i get from my new neighbours about it will result in loud pipes saving lives.

Circumstances have just conspired against us. We have what is (hopefully) the last house we will ever have to buy tantalisingly within reach. It is practically the only house I have seen in the last six months that satisfies what I want, what my wife wants, but most importantly what we want for the kids.

We have frantically overpaid our mortagage for years, got the capital down at the expense of having flash 'stuff' and got ourselves into a position where we can comfortably afford our 'ideal' house.

Now it seems that a new arrival next door can do what the hell they like, bugger up our sale, and put us back to square one. We have been living out of boxes (ready to move) for a fortnight now, and will have to do so for another week at least. It is my daughter's birthday on Saturday and we just want all this resolved so that we can enjoy it without anything hanging over us.

But it is not going to be like that, because we are stupid. We have shown goodwill. We have put our buyers in direct contact with our new 'neighbour' and that conversation seemed to have gone well. But I am still not 100% sure it is going to pan out for us. It is getting us down. No matter how NIMBY this sounds, we were here first, we didn't ask for any of this, and frankly I don't think we deserve it. If it goes wrong I will have a lingering sense of injustice and I honestly don't know how I will be able to be civil with them. I am not a two-faced person, so I can't act (even if I wanted to).

So there it is. At least my conscience is clear, we have not mislead, lied or conveniently forgotten to mention anything to anyone. The whole process has now got to the point where if it does collapse at the last minute, there will be ill-feeling all round. Apart from the people who will have caused it, who will get exactly what they want. As far as I am concerned, that is not right.

Didn't they ban "garden grabbing" ?

Hope it works out for you danny. However a view from another side.... Our old neighbours strongly objected to our extension plans, after originally saying to our face that they had no objections. The extention could only be seen from their landing window and not overly intrusive. The neighbour opposite who had prime view of the extention fully supported it. The objectors thought it would devalue their property. Although local estate agents felt it would increase the value of their property through setting a president meaning they should get similar approved. I have suspicions that the parish council meeting wasn't totally impartial. In the end we had to move to get what we wanted. Which was a shame as we liked were we where, and was well placed for schools. Although to be honest glad we don't have to live next to them after things went sour.

Thanks Mark. Yes, that's the thing isn't it? Anything for a quite life, really, but I just want this to work out well!

Your example is from the 'other side' and I do appreciate what that can be like as well.

I'm going to end my part on this thread (which I have sort of hijacked without meaning to - sorry OP) by highlighting one very clear difference between me and my 'nemesis' next door.

I ride mountain bikes. He doesn't. I win.

DannyH you were a bit rude to MS DBCooper there, too, you started off criticizing her, knowing very little about her situation and got a bit hand-baggy when she held you to account.
I'll be honest I agree with her point and think your assumed right to have a high value house makes you a bit of a raging hypocrite as well as a bit rude. It's no wonder you don't get on with your neighbours, you sound like a ruddy nightmare to live near. Plus your fear appears to hypothetical and somewhat imaginary, perhaps her paranoia comment was exposing your delusion?

I apologised to everyone. Yes it is getting to me. Yes I did vent and shouldn't have. I will give chapter and verse at a later date if anyone is still interested. You're pretty rude too. As well as presumptuous. But hey, have a pop if you need to big man.