[Closed] Any nutritionists on here? DofE content

Army ration packs from eBay?

Ask a chef or a dietician

leave nutritionists to write made up quazi-medical marketing bumph in the lifestyle pages of the sunday supplements

Profiteroles and flapjack

HTH

Stuff that's dry is light weight, but that's basically pasta of which you need to eat a lot to keep full.

Army ration packs might be a good idea as would be those camping ready meals you can get from outdoor shops, although they are not cheap.

4 days is quite a long time without re-stocks. Do you have the opportunity to re-stock?

Maltloaf pre-buttered into small snack size portions, flapjack. Can't you buy those boil in their bag shepherds pies wehre you just pierce the lid or something?? Cotswold outdoors had some recently.

Are you going to be relying on camping stoves?

live off the land*

(*fifty quid and google maps of the local pubs)

live off the land*

(*fifty quid and google maps of the local pubs)

You've not been to Arran have you?

Depending what exactly I am doing does vary what I take but a days food for trekking for me would be oats so simple for breakfast - make with powdered milk and add some dried fruit. A variety of cereal bars and dried fruit for snacks thru the day - probably at least 4 a day 100 g a day. Bread and cheese for lunch on the first day, crackers and cheese in a tube day two onwards. dinner is cup a soup, pasta and sauce, angel delight ( not diet ) made with powdered milk. Savoury rice in a pack is also good, /single pack dehydrated rubbish food for the win

If I am not too concerned about weight I will add some real garlic and onion to the pasta and maybe a tin of tuna.

I hate to carry food with water in. Water is never in short supply in Scotland, why carry it around in any form 🙂

count up the calories - you will want a lot maybe 4000 - 5000 a day. I do a few trekking trips ech year and this is what I base my food on

TJ you sure that which you mentioned could be made to add up to 4,000 calories? Seems a bit lean.

The savoury rice is a good idea tho. We also tried vegetarian meat substitute stuff - grim, but filling.

For bread, rolled up tortillas with peanut butter/chocolate spread are the best I've found. They are robust and don't go stale or mouldy for ages.

You've not been to Arran have you?

Isle of Arran
Pack the midge repelant..
we called Glen Rossa "Midge Alley"

It's DoE...nothing to worry about, Throw some primula cheese and pitta bread in along with some malt loaf. It's a piece of piss.

If you're feeling saucy, take a can of hot dog sausages - boil 'em, eat 'em...then make a soup with the nasty water.

Enjoy.

You've not been to Arran have you?
pizza delivery out of the question then ?

If only! 😆

Base your diet on fat and protein, not carbs. You'll be burning fat at the intensity you're doing.
Eggs, bacon for breakfast. Get a massive salami sausage for general tucking into. Powdered greens are essential. Plenty of nuts. Bottle of cod liver oil and have loads. Don't take any artificial foods (e.g. margarine). Fat is 9 cals per gram, carbs are 4. You carry less than half the weight if you carry fat. Remember, there are essential fats and amino acids. There are no essential carbs.
Just forget the rice/pasta, it's no better than pot noodle and just spikes your insulin.

Really important point made above. Any idiot can - and does - call themself a nutritionist. Never believe anyone whose sole credential is that.

You carry less than half the weight if you carry fat.

A diet of lard is hardly balanced. Most foodstuffs with a lot of fat contain water as well so the weight advantage is lower than you claim

There are no essential carbs.

For trekking you also need it to be light, easily cooked and easily digested hence the menu I gave above which I have used for many any trips over many years. I wouldn't want to live on it all year but for a few days trekking it works well.

If you're taking a decent stove, I discovered a dry pancake mix today that requires only water to make up. Quite tasty as well, and gives variety to your breakfasts if porridge isn't your thing.

Also, salami or chorizo is win food - fat and protein packed into a delicious package, can be eaten on its own or put in pasta or noodles

Also trekking food needs to last the 4 days without refrigeration

Salami is good tho for sure

You need carbs as well in your diet - a mix is good.

This is generally the establishment doctrine, despite the fact that prior to the advent of agriculture, carbs were a tiny proportion of our diets and regarded as a treat worth going to some lengths for.

Energy derived from carbs is no different from energy derived from fats or proteins BUT, carbs contain and supply no essential materials that contribute to the maintenance, repair and building of cells.

You can get by perfectly well without carbs, but you can't expect your maximal output to be anywhere like as high with them. Thats because it costs somthing like twice as much oxygen to get the energy from protein or fat.

That said, DoE effort is unlikely to require those levels of output. You'll be going all day, everyday, but you'll be well inside your aerobic zone and therefore have plenty of O2 required for the extra work on your fats and proteins.

Theres a reason Ranulf Fiennes dragged a sled full of butter, rather than pasta.

Breckfast ---- Instant porridge oats with powdered milk added (i've used microwavable sachets without a problem for a few years now) shove in a huge handful of dried fruit add extra sugar and all you have to do is boil water and pour on. Pre-pack the above in zip-lock bags.

Mid morning snack - Flapjacks, nuts or more dried fruit.

Lunch ----- Digestive biscuits + Primula Cheese spread (in a tube) + cup of instant soup

Afternoon snack - Malt loaf and nuts

Evening meal - Packet of cous cous + tin of mackeral/sardines in tomato sauce

Dessert - Crush a couple of sticks of short bread + sachet of jam from a cafe + add to a melted Yorkie biscuit and raisin bar YUM YUM!

Night cap - Instant hot chocolate and some choccie biscuits ( also a wee dram if you can get it past your assessor!)

AlSO: drop in a few treats like toffees and energy gels for an instant energy hit during the day.

REMEMBER: That your 1st day could be different as you will have only started walking and your food will not have had a chance to spoil yet. Drop in mini pork pies and scotch eggs!

and don't forget...... STAY HYDRATED!!!

the stoves we carry are something very similar to this. they're a lot better than the old trangier
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looking into getting some "deet" insect repellent because apparantly it works - unlike most of the stuff i've used before. will most probably be investing in the pre packaged long life camping food but on the 3 day practice i noticed that the stuff we had was a measly 130cal. also found some biscuits that have 5 cal/gram. flapjack is a good idea. the pancake stuff would be a nice change but would probably be ruined by the sheep p*** we've purified for water. Thanks for the suggestions - i will share them with the team

scotch eggs, protein bars, brazil nuts, smoked mackerel, chorizo, malt loaf, lentils - as others have said, calorie dense and mostly fat/protein oriented food.

I've found cous cous to be the most fuel & space efficient form of carbs for a main evening meal. Mix in a bit of protein & fat (chorizo & cheese) and you're onto a winner.

Also second the hot choc suggestion - always a welcome drink after a day on the hills.

I wouldn't listen to all of the waffle about getting all your energy from fat and protein. Those diets have some merit for weight loss, but that isn't your goal on DofE. The argument that it's what we evolved eating is spurious - back in the days before agriculture we had a life expectancy of about 35 years.

Make sure you have something in there that you enjoy to treat yourself with later on in the trip - it's good to have something to look forward to!

Also: have fun. Arran's an amazing place!

I was doing the north downs way once with a couple of mates. We pitched tents just before dusk in a discrete area of a village green. Whilst we were getting ready to go down the pub, a bunch of DoE kids turned up and camped next to us, when quizzed as to why they had camped right net to us it was because it must be ok to camp there because other people were.
We went down the pub for a nice big meal and a few pints and came back to see them still trying to coax a can of beans up to room temperature over a Esbit stove.
So my suggestion would be use pubs 🙂

You need carbs as well in your diet - a mix is good.
This is generally the establishment doctrine

You do need SOME carbs, just not a lot. Esp if exercising, even if it's only walking. Anyone who's bonked should be able to testify 🙂

(all afaik of course).

Theres a reason Ranulf Fiennes dragged a sled full of butter, rather than pasta

🙄 he wasn't on a DoE was he?

The argument that it's what we evolved eating is spurious - back in the days before agriculture we had a life expectancy of about 35 years

That life expectancy argument is also spurious. I remember reading that old people were just as old back then, but there were fewer of them because more people died from diseases etc. The MEAN lifetime might've been 35, but that doens't mean you were necessarily expected to die at 35..

on my DofE, having done many years of other bits and bobs of expedition, we got "kit" pretty much down to a tee.

Evening food was beanfeast and cous cous.

beanfeast is dried soya mince in gracy with onion and various dried bits and bobs, and cous cous is... well cous cous.

sdlightly odd having morrocan spicey cous cous with basically cottage pie filling, but pretty tasty, and warm and carby.

lunch was Pittas, as it doesnt go stale very easily, with tuna sachets.

Army Rat packs are pretty heavy, as the food is wet, and although they have a lot of energy in them, i always find myself being hungry afterwards as the portions are quite small.

You might get better info on the for website than hear wherepeople seem to think you are tracking to the orthodox pole not walking in the hills for 4 days. The cured meat (salami/chorizo) suggestion is good. I'd suggest thinking hard before completely changing your diet from normal - ask anyone who has tried the taking diet and they will tell you it takes time to adapt during which you feel crappy. Since I did my doe food choices have improved, recently I had some risoto which was just add water which wasn't bad- came from supermarkt, and much cheaper than official camping rations. Many similar options. From a doe perspective though you really all need to be doing the same as 5 or 6 people all cooking different stuff is crazy and not really in the spirit.

back in the days before agriculture we had a life expectancy of about 35 years

average life expectancy was skewed by very high infant mortality and what's your evidence that an early death was caused by a lack of processed carbs?

I second cous-cous. Pour over boiling water and it is ready in 5 minutes without any further cooking, which is a big plus for camping. Polenta (maize flour) also packs small, cooks very quickly and bulks up nicely when water is added.
I would get a big cheap bag of own-brand porridge oats from the supermarket instead of instant porridge or oats-so-simple. You can't really make porridge any simpler!

haha Ian - i live a 10 minute ride from the north downs way so we often see bronze groups staring blankly at a map looking for Bently copse mostly. It should be fun if all goes well but we do have to cover near to 100km. how long does cheese last unrefrigerated? it's just that we have a full day of doing nothing before hand (to recover from 11 hours of minibus) where size and weight of food is not a problem but it means what we take for the hike has to last that much longer

Cheese in a block will last 2 or 3 days IME depending on the temp - you can get the primula cheese in a tube as well that lasts longer. tartex veg pate is another good one for lunches

Multi day stuff i work on
breakfast - porridge sachets with hot water and powdered milk, teabags, sugar
lunch - cheese slices, pita or biscuits, tuna and/or salami. Soup sachet
dinner - backcountry dehy anything - usually thai chicken curry or something tasty.
snacks - one square meal bars, clif bars, crackers, salted nuts.
Nuun tablets.

I usually subsist on ready mixed bags of porridge (those sachets look tiny!) with powdered milk, sultanas and sugar mixed through. If I'm feeling decadent I might even sneak in some little 'lunch box' sized cartons of OJ, although thats pretty weighty.

Thick oatcakes, cheese and salami for lunch.

Most of the dishes above ^ for dinner. I couldn't imagine wanting to fry up greasy meat every night, regardless of its nutritional efficiency, and I never feel slower or worse than the hour or so after a fry in the morning.

4 days is quite a long time without re-stocks

If you're taking a decent stove, I discovered a dry pancake mix today that requires only water to make up. Quite tasty as well, and gives variety to your breakfasts if porridge isn't your thing.

Final tip: Take up smoking rollies. Lightweight, easy to carry, repress your appetite and give you something to do while sitting and appreciating the views. Also, to a small extent, repel midgies, and make you look like James Dean in gore-tex. What's to lose?

I don't remember the Gold expedition being either as strenuous or complex to plan for as you're making out. Cereal bars, chocky spread sandwiches, beanfeast, super noodles (though not recommended anymore, but never did us any harm), just simple stuff. Can't see how you can struggle to take enough. It's only a few days, eat anything you fancy and can fit in your bag.

Don't worry about energy content specifically, or nutrition content, just ensure you have enough each day, then some extra for when it's miserable and you're sat about at night. You'd done bronze/silver so you're aware of what you need. You probably take too many clothes if you can't fit all the food and kit you need.

And trangias are ace, far better than nasty gas nonsense you get these days.

You could always take some high protein powder and mix it with oats and some water,reflex is quite good,quinoa is easy to cook and is filling too. Take some ground spices to add some punch to your food, I struggle to find time to eat working long days and never have lunch or dinner with being a chef, try some Dr udos oil, really nutty and saves you having to take nuts, hope this helps.

No tins to keep weight down. Oatcakes and tubes of cheese spread do well for daytime snacks. The 'porridge oats with milk powder & sugar & dried fruit added' is perfect for breakfast. Evening meal is whatever you want - the Beanfeast idea is good - soya meat substitute is light, dry and easy to use. Some of the commercial dehydrated meals are good for a variation. Lots of dried mixed fruit.

Try all your recipes before you go. Nothing worse than hating your food. Remember you are carrying it all, so no tins and as little pre-made stuff as possible.

I don't remember the Gold expedition being either as strenuous or complex to plan for as you're making out.

Ah, DoE, that brings back some fun memories.

We headed up to the Grampians for our gold expedition - 65miles in 5 days, in glorious sunshine (not a cloud all week!).

Up at 3am, set off by 4am.... finished the 'days' walking before lunchtime, so we could just relax the rest of the day....

As much as I hated my school, the opportunity to do DoE (Bronze, Silver and Gold) was fantastic.

On multi-day trips I sometimes make a big pile of bacon and fried egg sandwiches with loads of butter and tomato sauce.
There are several advantages: You never lose your appetite for a bacon sarnie, they can get all scrunched up but are still percectly edible, they don't go stale or mouldy, and they contain just the right amount of every food group you need for your energy.

And trangias are [s]ace[/s] crap, far [s]better[/s] worse than [s]nasty[/s] useful gas [s]nonsense[/s] you get these days.

As a DoE leader and assessor, you will be asked what you are eating. The oats so simple with dried fruit is a cracking idea. I make up fajita wraps and clingfilm each of them, they last 2 days as lunches, then sod it I am cooking at lunchtime,the rest of the group can deal with that,mugshot soups and fruit loaf, or cheddar in pitta with tom sauce for days 3 and 4 (hard cheese is fine for a couple of days,if heavy). Tea; pasta/boil in the bag meals or rehydrated meals, the last two are lighter. Chuck some chozio into a dolmio packet sauce and add to pasta. Those cadburys instants come measured, as do oats so simple, so you are not adding too much oats/milk etc. Bring plenty treats and ration your food out intto what you will eat each day. Be strict about it as well I see plenty participants wolf down all their treats day one and by day three they are walking in the rain with nothing other than a packet of soup for tea. Don't bring tins ever! Good luck,and pray for wind...

Just take a bigger bag

Find a small brown boy to carry all your provisions. It is the Duke of Edinburgh award, after all.

Depending on how far you are walking day one you could always take "real food" for the first night. If my first day is shorter (due to travel etc) then the extra weight can be offset by having something nice for the first evening.

As above dividing everything up is a good idea so you keep track of what your eating.

one square meal bars,

I thought of those too, but as far as I know they aren't available outside New Zealand, and there isn't anything similar that is as good available here.

despite the fact that prior to the advent of agriculture, carbs were a tiny proportion of our diets and regarded as a treat worth going to some lengths for.

Really? I thought that most hunter-gatherer societies were thought to have had a majority vegetable & foraging based diet, with the exception of far north socieities (Inuit, Scandinavians etc.), with actually hunting and killing an animal being the treat?

For what it's worth, for big meals on that sort of trip I've always just bought a load of packet pasta / packet rice etc. with some kind of protein that can be chucked in. Cheap, easy to cook and quite light.

I'd be interested to know if anyone actually fit / fast makes much use of these high-protein & fat diets, except when doing extended trips in very cold areas? I mean at 24 hour races, you don't see the fast people eating lard, it's all about jelly babies and pasta etc. Are all these fast people missing a trick, and they'd be 50% faster again if they swapped over to a butter/lard mixture, or are the people suggesting these diets for exercise talking rubbish?

Agree with most of the comments....Army rations although heavy aren't bad, if you do use them break down the boxes and shift them round your bergen for weight distribution. If you go down the rat pack route, don’t worry if you don’t poo for a few days, it’s normal but be prepared for when you do ?

Always make sure your next days meals are near the top or in a side pouch, carrying treats in your pockets. Melted Yorkie and Biscuits Brown brings back happy memories.

Add a spoonful of powder chocolate mix to your porridge when you want.

Surprisingly Southern Comfort in coffee is a nice tipple after a cold, hard days jaunt. Kendal Mint cake for day 5 just for the extra sugar hit and a mug of oxtail soup and a crème egg is also great when it’s cold, wet and miserable.

Always check your Bergen when you stop at a pub otherwise you’ll find you’ve carried the carry out for the group up the next big climb

I mean at 24 hour races, you don't see the fast people eating lard, it's all about jelly babies and pasta etc. Are all these fast people missing a trick, and they'd be 50% faster again if they swapped over to a butter/lard mixture, or are the people suggesting these diets for exercise talking rubbish?

As far as I know, the DofE isnt a race

Joemarshall. to oersimplify greatly

Carbs give you the energy in an easier to use package, fats contain more energy per gramme. A diet of fats would be a large improvement in sustained severe exercise - like 30 days trekking in the Antarctic. It would be worse for a 24 hr mountainbike ride as you need more O2 to gat eh energy from it and it takes longer to get the energy.

Food for multiday treks of the levewl of the DoE schemes needs to meet several criteria.
1) light
2) easily digested
3) easy to cook
4) contain plenty of energy
5) last without refrigeration.
6) palatable

I find a diet of mixed foodstuffs that is dehydrated as detailed in my post above meeets this. Plenty of carbs high and low GI, fats and protein in normal quantities.

As far as I know, the DofE isnt a race

No, but it's a largish amount of exercise, which you want to efficiently fuel yourself for.

I dunno. I've done quite a few endurance events, hiking, bike touring, canoe trips etc. and like someone above says, in every case it seems like everyone is eating quite a lot of carbohydrates, with a bit of protein and fat, rather than a protein/fat based diet. In cases when people have got things wrong and bonked, it always seems like they didn't eat enough carbs, and chocolate bars or similar have got them back going. Would they really have been better loading up with lard and trying to digest that whilst doing lots of exercise?

I can see that for weight loss there are arguments around Atkins type fad diets, but for exercise?

Oh, my other top and possibly not sensible tip for doing long, very lightweight camping trips, is that you don't need quite as much energy as you are using. Have a massive meal the day before, plus you can push yourself and then have a big pizza when you get home! I've done some pretty long rides with just a 20 litre backpack plus a sleeping bag bivvi thing, good fun that is.

Just take a bigger bag

This.

I don't know what size of bag you are using but it must be pretty small if you can only take enough food for 3 days. I've done 6 day trips with a 65l sack and I'm by no means obsessive about saving weight.

I've also been told that you burn stored fat as easily as dietary fat, so unless you are super skinny there's no point taking fat with you.

No idea if that's right but it was told to me by a coach.

And trangias are crap, far better than nasty gas nonsense you get these days.

Used lots of them extensively in my time leading groups and private use. Always, ALWAYS return to my trangia for reliable fast cooking. People tell me they're slow, well I boiled nearly a full 500ml pan of water in 3 minutes at the foot of a glacier in 20 knot wind only last week, not sure why you'd need any faster personally! Plus I bought a random flammable fuel (turned out to be ethanol but I've run it on white spirit and petrol) from a place when and where there was no gas fuel available. YMMV.

I don't know what size of bag you are using but it must be pretty small if you can only take enough food for 3 days. I've done 6 day trips with a 65l sack and I'm by no means obsessive about saving weight.

+1, I used an 80 litre bag on my gold, but it was actually mostly compressed down to about the size of a 60 litre.

You talk to me as if I've never used one CK 🙂

maybe instead of investing in a bigger bag, i should invest in a smaller sleeping bag. it won't be cold and the 3 season one i have is 2kg and takes about 20-25 litres of the 65 i have. also the tents we are given are not particularly compact so with the clothes as well, the main bit of the bag is nearly full. then i am left with the pockets for most of the other stuff.

You talk to me as if I've never used one CK

Not at all, just amazed by how you can be so contrary in opinion to myself on something that's pretty fundamental. I've tried a heap of gas ones and never found one that came close in performance (and handiness of packing). Even the gas trangia attachment doesn't work as well as the liquid fuel one. Never tried a jetboil, would like to.

instead of investing in a bigger bag take less stuff. I use a 50l for trekking and can do 4 days without resupply with that (admitedly with stuff shared between 2)

with the clothes as well

You'll only need what you will be wearing plus one change of socks (in case they get wet) and if you feel particularly decadent one change of underwear.

A good stuff sack for your sleeping bag would be a good idea.

On stoves - they all have advantages and disadvantages - a trangias main advantage is its simplicity - they just work and continue to work in poor conditions. I have had gas stoves fail because they were too cold ( although I have supposed 4 season gasmix now) they are also very convenient with the built in windshield. No extra weight compared to my pocket rocket by the time I have the windsheild, spare gas can and pots

gonfishin - you must have a spare set of clothes in case of emergency / getting soaked

I didn't like the controlability of the Trannie when I used it. Too much or too little. Also it was uneconomical, had stinky fuel and the whole caboodle was heavy with the metal stand and chunky pans.

It was a long time ago but I got the impression they hand't changed much.

I either use a pocket rocket super light type thing or an MSR liquid fuel one.

maybe instead of investing in a bigger bag, i should invest in a smaller sleeping bag. it won't be cold and the 3 season one i have is 2kg and takes about 20-25 litres of the 65 i have. also the tents we are given are not particularly compact so with the clothes as well, the main bit of the bag is nearly full. then i am left with the pockets for most of the other stuff.

Sounds like a large bag. My 5 season down bag fits across the bottom of my rucksack, taking about 15 litres total, but it was pricey I admit.

What clothes are you packing? IIRC on my gold I took one spare set of shell-type bottoms, a change of socks and undies per day and a couple of Tshirts. Add that to your first set of clothes and waterproofs and you shouldn't really be filling a bag, but 5 days worth of food should fit in the side pockets and top pretty easily.

Mols - I have weighed a trangia against a pocket rocket with windshield, minimal pots and spare gas can - nothing in it

The one I had was pretty heavy, there may be a lighter weight one available now.

Most of my lightweight stays have been overnight stops on Polarises, and I have used a very small gas can and my stove is actually some other make that's smaller and lighter than a pocket rocket. I didn't take a windshield, either improvising or cooking in the tent.

I used an 80 litre bag on my gold

I take it you took the kitchen sink then.

I didn't like the controlability of the Trannie when I used it. Too much or too little. Also it was uneconomical, had stinky fuel and the whole caboodle was heavy with the metal stand and chunky pans.

It's variable from full tilt to almost zero with the ring, a single burner fill (200ml? ish) will boil 3 500ml pans meaning a single 1 litre bottle will do 2 guys a 5 day expedition easily, and while the fuel may stink, you're not eating it or wearing it so what does it matter? Weight-wise - compared to the gas cans and the same number of pans? Bearing in mind you can leave out some pans and the kettle if needed too?

Just not sure there's enough in it and whenever I've used a gas one I've wished I had my trangia, never the other way round but I must admit I've done with most of my lightweight walking these days.

Pointless argument, but that is still much more fuel than my MSR uses and the fuel stinks which in itself is a problem - the smell is unpleasant.

Well you see molgrips . The trangia has not changed. However you are then not comparing like with like for weight. I will buy a trangia next time I go camping where the temp could drop below 5 c. I do multiday lightweight trekking in the wilds every year. Reliability is crucial

Alright, I'm wrong. Trangias are brilliant, it's all in my head 🙂

(btw I am not comparing trangia with gas, but with pressurised liquid fuel.. and if you know it's not going to be below 5 degrees then the temperature thing is not an issue).

What fuel do you use that smells so nice Mol?

Each to his own eh.