Any interest for a Forum only Membership?

Well I for one only really come here for the forum, no real interest in the rest

digital sub works for me.

I support the mag and no trees die.

I'd not be sure that the forum itself would generate sufficient revenue to make it worthwhile. I don't read the mag much but am happy to support the folk and the community.

There's a forum?

Be interesting to see the numbers and how much revenue  forum users generate Vs no forum users.

I kind of agree on the mag content. Especially since the last site update.

I would be happy to pay the same fee to access the forum.

I've got one requirement to subscribe and that's a working killfile. I don't like magazines in general so I'd only be paying for the forum and if they can't get that right then what's the point. I'm on two forums, this one and one for weed and the stoners run a way better forum.  I'll forgive the rest but not the killfile.

And that red banner that tries to be more annoying than ads just makes me dig my heels in to be honest.

Its a Yes from me , If they invest in some tech authors who know what theyre doing.  Give us a Like button and remove the ads if Im paying .

The mag is what it is , but its relevance is waning with each issue. Sorry.

There's a Mag?

one for weed and the stoners run a way better forum

Are you freeloading on that one too?

Really can't see why people moan about something they are using for free 🤷‍♂️

Give us a Like button and remove the ads if Im paying

50% achieved already!

https://flic.kr/p/2oggciW

There's a quote function that works??

I'm not complaining, just setting out my terms and conditions.

And as for  freeloading, they have the technology to stop me doing that but choose not to, if it doesn't bother them that much I don't see why it should bother you.

The other site does not have a subscription option, but neither does it have a magazine to support.

I was happy paying for the digital membership, but did get it on a recent offer. I became a member again as the content can be interesting even though I'm not exactly target market. Forum-only option sounds like a good idea.

The question has been asked before - more than once.

My belief is that forum-only users are, in effect, subsidising the magazine. Given the choice, I'd like to see my subs invested in a better forum experience. We know that, shorn of the need to integrate with the publishing side, the forum software would be much simpler to develop and maintain. However, Mark has also said that he doesn't want to be the owner of "just" an internet forum, so we're in the position we are in.

It'll be crap til they bring back the old classifieds , never been the same since

mick is right.    classifieds is so poor i have not used it since it changed.  and i was very very busy on it prior

I dont' really care.. I sub for the forum as its a really good source of entertainment and knowledge, such a wide veriety of people and opinions, so I don't want to 'free load', but I can also look at the digital copy of the mag too if I want to.

Apparently it's about biking, who knew? But seriously I got loads of really good advice several years back when I didn't really know too much about mountain bikes.

Some very kind members even sent me a pair of x9 shifters and some XHP grease, wouldnt take any money or even an amazon voucher for thier troubles, so I pay forward these favours when I can.

I'ts a great community overall, that I wouldn't want to jepordize by compartmentalizing it too much.

Paying? for a forum? I don’t think many would. Like, putting the forum behind a paywall, or voluntary payments for a different colour badge, or what?

Paying? for a forum? I don’t think many would.

That's a value judgement. No ads, better experience, etc. I think that could be monetized. Otherwise it's stagnant, bugs aren't fixed and you're relying on unpaid volunteers to run it. Who pays for hosting?

I’m happy to support the magazine but it definitely isn’t what I love about STW. The forums and it’s members are why I subscribe.

No ads, better experience, 

Ah yeah, true. I forget about the ads cos the browser I use on my ipad doesn’t show them and they’re blocked by my work’s proxy

Paying? for a forum? I don’t think many would.

Well  so far the answers seem to suggest to the contrary. There appears to be a fair few who are just subscribing for the forum. But the irritating thing is that we're being ignored.

Like, putting the forum behind a paywall, or voluntary payments for a different colour badge, or what?

In the first instance just add a third payment option for forum only. It gives you the same site access as the freeloaders gives us the warm fuzzy glow that we're paying for something we're getting.  And perhaps gives the management a more realistic view of where their money comes from. Which they currently appear not to have a clue about.

It’s what, £25 a year currently for a digital sub that also gets rid of the ads? How much less would you expect to pay for just the forum?

a tenner a year? Then, just 7500 extra of you would pay the wages/NI etc for 1 “forum specific dev”. Call it 10000 extra subscribers to make up for the lost ad revenue, and maybe make a little bit of profit to make it worthwhile, although that would get eaten into by cloud costs and other sundries but let’s not quibble over a few 1000 here or there. But that’s an unlikely ~20000 extra subscribers for just 2 extra devs.

Also, it’s really easy to spin up a discourse forum for next to nothing, so any one of you could go off and do that, yet here we all are 🤷

‘Just’ a forum wouldn’t pay the salaries of 10 people.
a media business WITH a forum can.

I reckon I could run a forum business with 1 tech. But I really really REALLY like the other 8 staff I’d have make redundant. Plus we’d need 2 to three times the traffic to that forum to earn a good living using programmatic ad revenue. Paywalled forum is a fantasy. Why would you pay? Set up a FB group for free. Or a subreddit?
programmatic revenue is in decline anyway so we’d need another revenue stream. Maybe sell ads to the industry? Brands aren’t going to pay much for their ads next to forum posts that could be toxic to them. But they might sponsor the forum? That would be one brand. Not enough. Plus now we are talking ad sales. That’s going to need another staffer or expensive freelancer. Maybe commission only based? One sponsor won’t be enough. What else could we sell? How about ads/sponsorship around other content? Like editorial. That’s going to need to be written. That’s expensive. So we are paying contributors now. It will need editing too if the brands are going to be happy to have their ads around it. So now we are dealing with admin and accounts and invoices. That’s another job.
Etc etc.

All of that is with no revenue from actual readers. Just an ad funded model. Some of you don’t read the editorial and still subscribe. I absolutely appreciate your position. But thousands of you do read the editorial and the printed mags. We have a very strong reputation globally for that. I no it’s not for everyone but our mag advertising revenue added to our membership revenue makes up two thirds of our entire turnover and as a result allows me to employ 9 amazing people full time.

my life would be much more comfortable ‘just’ running a forum business. But it would be a whole lot lonelier and rather empty.

I like Singletrack and I like what it has become, despite its wonky forum and weird 20s delay when posting and unintuitive quote tool. I like the people it’s brought together over the years and the way this community works and pulls together when it needs to. I know that this community is built on the people who contribute and that means it’s not ‘mine’. I just run it but the community is yours. But this place is much more than just a forum and if I decided to reduce it to that it would not work.

Now. Last weeks updates broke some things. Those bugs have been pretty much squashed and a bug fixing update is due on Monday.

have a great weekend everyone. I’m off to pour a drink. See you on Monday. 🙂

I pay for the forum because without paying it's the worst browsing experience of any website I visit regularly. I don't think they have their priorities right though; a like button would be way down my to do list when there's far more important things to fix or implement.

yet here we all are

We are all here because we put value in the current community and the content it creates. I don't think it's unreasonable to want a better forum based on the current subscription cost - one that responds faster, doesn't suffer from ads, is faster-loading, has a better editor, easier photo linking, a quote function etc.

There's a like button??

I wondered what those numbers were under the STW icon on posts - I assumed it was just a bug in the software...!

What I like about full membership is you get a kill file, I can’t believe no one has mentioned that.

If you do- then i'm in! But do you?

It's £25 to subscribe digital for a year. How much less than ~£2 a month do you want to pay for a "forum only" option? Just subscribe and not read anything other than the forum. FFS.

It’s £25 to subscribe digital for a year. How much less than ~£2 a month do you want to pay for a “forum only” option? Just subscribe and not read anything other than the forum. FFS.

Point missed.

.

The yearly subscription is a tiny amount of money and it helps pay for STW in general.

You get a nice mage full of interesting articles.

Pay for it and help those people fell thankful they didnt waste their time at university.

It's 2 quid for digital only so less than 50p per week....

I'd argue that's not bad value plus the mag is really good value.

However the forums not glitch free. Its not unusable but isn't a finely polished product. However that's not a huge issue for me. Can be frustrating but meh.

It's artisanal

Well  so far the answers seem to suggest to the contrary.

You're surprised that forum users are posting in favour of the forum, on the forum?

Now. Last weeks updates broke some things. Those bugs have been pretty much squashed and a bug fixing update is due on Monday.

Can you unbollocks the editor please Mark?  It's properly getting on my tits.  You know better than I do that TinyMCE doesn't work properly on here, it never has.

That’s in Mondays release. I know it gets on your tits. The unhelpful sarcastic email you sent gave that away 😉

EDIT

Just tested the quote function. It works as it always has just without adding the visible code

🤷‍♂️

The unhelpful sarcastic email you sent gave that away

Well, if that's your opinion of my feedback then it's an easy fix.

Those of you that don’t read the mag/flick through and aren’t drawn in: what do you want to see? Every issue I try and pull together a mix of locations, riding styles, and writing styles. And then I try and mix that up across the year, so that all those different things are fairly evenly spread. And then I try and make sure that what’s in there is pretty timeless - with the news/immediate read stuff on the web.

Even the reviews I try and make fairly timeless, and relevant even if you’ve got no interest in actually buying the thing. Kind of a ‘state of the market now’ look at things rather than a straight buyer’s guide review - those go on the web.

So, that’s the parameters: timeless content across a broad range of mtb riding styles. What do you want more of? Or less of? Or what do you not see at all that you wish was there?

My inbox is always open!

dyna-ti
Full Member
The yearly subscription is a tiny amount of money and it helps pay for STW in general.

You get a nice mage full of interesting articles.

Pay for it and help those people fell thankful they didnt waste their time at university.

I agree. I'm paying for 2 streaming services at the moment and frankly most of their content is rubbish.

My digital sub is by far and away the best value for money purchase I make in a whole year. The mag and the forum sub cost a pittance and I'd really miss the mag and the people that contribute to it.

Piracy is actualy easy if you don't care about HDR on an OLED screen, most of it it 1080ish... makes you think why bother paying more for less?

EDIT: i say this as an amazon subscriber, lol

Paying? for a forum? I don’t think many would

I certainly wouldn't pay for a forum.  I don't pay for any other forums and they don't even have a member/pay option.  I put up with the ads and awful UX as a form of payment.  If all those ads are not paying for the poor level of development then the forum would just have to call it a day I guess.

Personally, I can never believe how some of the forum users here can be so 'kin rude to the good folks who produce Singletrack magazine and provide this forum.

Mark and Hannah explain things time and time again and yet still, several whining individuals with no table manners and zero tact, pipe up for a dig again and again.

Must be pretty demoralising for them I imagine. 😐

Those of you that don’t read the mag/flick through and aren’t drawn in: what do you want to see?

More effort put into the forum running smoothly.  I don’t think this is abut the mag, more the state of the forum at times and a desire for more resources to be put in that direction.  You are going to get a biased view asking on the forum of course

Must be pretty demoralising for them I imagine. 😐

Thread started on a Friday night as well 🙃 Would be properly crap to finally finish your weeks work and then read this thread.

Very little empathy and quite a lot of entitlement on show but hey, that’s the internet. Am sure everyone would be lovely in the pub.

We are working on the forum! But there was an awful lot on the website (websites, as it was) that needed doing first. If we hadn’t done that, we probably wouldn’t be here. Coin/like/token/appreciation button is now in place - something that’s become something of a meme in here over the years as you’ve waited for it. Another bug squish is coming next week to fix a few more bits. As I said in a newsletter before Christmas, it’s been a lot to get things to a level of stability where we’re squashing bugs instead of completely taking the site down when we try and launch things.

(I am on holiday, btw, so anyone who does email me this week with mag suggestions and feedback is going to get my out of office. But I am interested in knowing what you want to read - otherwise it’s like blogging into a black hole, with no feedback to learn from).

Edit/p.s: feedback isn’t demoralising for me, unless it’s of the variety of ‘I don’t read the magazine because it never covers x, y and z’, when x y and z ARE actually in the last issue, and the one before that, but because you don’t read the magazine, you don’t actually know it’s there! Complaining that you don’t like/want/read the mag without explaining why is just frustrating - I can’t learn from that. And, of course, I might just disagree with your view - I know I’ll never please everyone!

I’m not expert but I think the magazine and forum or more tightly linked than one might think. The forum clearly directs traffic from goggle searches, so more people know about the magazine.

Presumably the digital subs provides cash income but it must also boost advertising income in the magazine.

I’m really old fashioned and really like the paper magazine turning up.

I really must have a think about what else I’d like to see in the magazine

The mag is great. It oozes quality compared to the other MTB comics and is just more grown up and better written. I really enjoyed the story of Chipps' move to France in the latest one. In a wet, dreary British winter, dipping in and out of the mag lying by my bed keeps me enthused and looking forward to great riding days ahead. Keep up the good work 👍

Those of you that don’t read the mag/flick through and aren’t drawn in: what do you want to see?

Tbh I don't. I don't read or so articles and I'm not sure there's anything you can do about it.

Wjilst I love riding and love spending time with bikes, I don't much go in for reading about them.

If I were pushed for something, something like a Rob Warner Peru or G5 adventure, maybe something like Kilian Brons new video.

But probably the most interesting would be tech stuff. How to rebuild a shock/fork, build a wheel from scratch. But you're then battling YouTube.

Fwiw, when I've read Singletrack mag, it's been a good read. No argument from me that you're doing a great job. But it's just not often me.

Now. Last weeks updates broke some things. Those bugs have been pretty much squashed and a bug fixing update is due on Monday.

looking forward to Monday!I'm

On the back of this thread though, I'm going to go full mag subscription on payday. Full paper thing.

Let's give them a chance to inspire.

Things that need fixing:

1. Long wait time after pressing 'submit'

2. Broken quote function

3. Adverts covering the text box, so you can't see what you're writing

4. The spammy mess that gets spewed all over your  post when you try to copy and paste

Personally I'm not interesting in the magazine at all.  However STW is NOT a democracy - its a private playground we are invited to enter and I do pay after Marks plea at the beginning of covid.  If it were up to me it would be different but its not up to me.  Its up to Mark

Some folk need to remember that

I used to pay for the UK Climbing forum because it was a joy to use, it's a internationally recognised & regarded resource from a small enthusiastic UK based team of outdoor loving people. I hardly ever use the site any more as I climb far less than I used to so let my payment lapse.

I still pay for Pinkbike membership as their classifieds is second to none despite the theory here that it's full of "swap for my Xbox" comments.

Wjilst I love riding and love spending time with bikes, I don’t much go in for reading about them.

Yup same for me. The other problem is that the more I read about cycling the more I want to buy stuff which I definitely need but hadn't realised I needed.

I find that blissful ignorance saves a lot of money whilst I remain perfectly happy.

I'm no expert in how forums work in the background but I was a member of a car forum a number of years ago. It wasn't too dissimilar to Singletrack as it is now. The owner of the forum decided it needed updating as it was outdated and doing little upgrades here and there wasn't worth the effort Vs a big upgrade to a new platform. Anyway, once the forum was upgraded to a new and improved version everybody stopped visiting as they didn't like change, the forum died almost instantly even though it was "better".

I would compare this to the classified section, I think it's an improvement but I see many people saying it's awful and they won't even use it now and it should go back to the old way. I know most people don't like change but at least give things a chance.

And with the slow posting issue, I've found that if you click submit you can then follow another link whilst it's loading and it will still have posted your response. It seems like the issue isn't that the forum is slow to post a reply, its just slow in letting you know that it's worked.

Point missed.

Yes I see that now. However that was a pretty unhelpful response.

I pay for emtbforums. A forum that actually works! quotes, images, links. You wouldn't believe it.

Also they only talk emtb, not road or gravel and politics are banned, so unlikely to suit the majority of stw users.

Being an old timer I see the forum as nothing more than an advert for the magazine, expecially as it is so heavily plastered with other ads. I feel that purely by posting here I am supporting the magazine.

I pay nothing and wouldn't as I feel that I am making my contribution, espcially as I am not keen , but tolerate, some of the nasty politics posted.

Maybe I am missing the OPs point but do I not have a forum only membership already then as I gave up on the mag years ago, never click an advert and completely hate anything where people talk to me as I can read?

@ampthill has come the closest to summarising the reality of what Singletrack currently is.

Those of you that don’t read the mag/flick through and aren’t drawn in: what do you want to see?

Basically I am not interested in a MTB magazine.  No matter the content I wouldn't read it.

Can’t see what’s wrong with just taking out a digital sub. If you go much cheaper the cost of managing it outweighs the income.

only tweak I’d like to see is that sidebar removed >>>

It takes up a chunk of space on a iPad and is plugging articles from the home page and those same articles get dropped in as forum posts too.

From Mark’s post, I guess the assumption is that they would lose mag/digi subscribers if there was a forum only option. Folk would rather pay for that than a mag they don’t read.

I like the mag, I don't always get a chance to read the physical one so I cancelled then changed to a digital sub at the last call to arms. My boys like looking through the old mags im reminded to recycle. They're also used as pads to support paper to draw on by the boys.

I enjoy the articles but now dip in and out of it as I wish.

The forum has its issues but I more of a consumer than commenter.

I see no ads but the quote function with all the codey bits is a pain in the hoop to read.

But I am interested in knowing what you want to read – otherwise it’s like blogging into a black hole, with no feedback to learn from).

Yep. i totally agree that STW puts a huge amount of effort into writing a huge variety of articles about loads of different aspects. Really good compared to other mags. BUT the thing is that it is impossible for a small group of people to be able to cover all the bits that all the people want all of the time.  Your destination articles for example cover a huge range from aspiration right down to some fairly dull looking local rides in people's back yards.  The chances of the local rides being of interest to everyone are very slim. But that is inevitable given the format.

The forum however covers pretty much everything, which is the huge value of STW. When I Google stuff on mtb these days I don't write " mtb old man of Conniston " I write "site:singletrackworld.com old man of Conniston " because it is far and away the best site on the Internet for mtb.

Anywhere in the UK I want to ride, and loads of foreign places too, the info is here.

And it's exactly the same for bike tweaking. You get clear focussed advice on the issue you have at the time.

The fact is that it's impossible  for a magazine to provide that in depth info across such a broad amount of topics. That isn't a reflection on the writers, it's just an inevitable fact that they cannot hope to compete with the accumulated knowledge of x thousand subscribers.

It's that knowledge that I value, and was proposing a method of paying to access.

But I am interested in knowing what you want to read

I think I waffled above, so I'll try again. The answer is:

Wherever I'm off to next weekend, whatever is broken on my bike  or whatever I am about to buy for my bike.

The issue Isn't that StW Mag does this badly. It's just impossible for any mag to do this. But a forum can, amazingly well.

I've only got a subscription because I've been a forum member on and off since around 2004 and want to continue to hang out on here without adverts.

I could get the cheaper digital subscription but I much prefer hard copy magazine.

If there was a forum only sub option, I'd have that instead.

The mag is great. It oozes quality compared to the other MTB comics and is just more grown up and better written.

For me, I am happy to pay for the digital sub as I don't really have time or space for printed media any longer, yet do occasionally read the articles online.

I too get frustrated by how the STW forum appears to run, it does have too many quirks and 'problems' that to the average 'non-interweb back office' pleb such as I can't understand why they are not sorted - but by and large it is a great place.

One answer, as mentioned loads, is for STW to use a proprietary forum platform, like Emtb etc - but I fear it will come at the expense of losing the family feel that we have now. To me, this forum feels like the warm chair by the fire on a cold winters day, and it would be sad to see it morph into a generic 3 piece suite, even if said suite was more comfy.

Maybe a question of 'What do you want to change on the forum' could be asked. I believe there will be 4 or 5 things that come out overwhelmingly on the top. If those could be addressed, maybe even by using some of the collective member skills (giving back etc), then 95% of us would be happy I'm sure.

If the changes where possible but with a cost outside of the STW budget, I would like to think there are a few us of here that could/would chip in as a one off payment to help. Clearly a lot more thought needs to be behind such things, but not all of us are asking for a 'cheaper' option, instead simply wanting something that works better.

One answer, as mentioned loads, is for STW to use a proprietary forum platform,

As Mark has repeatedly explained this will not work with the integration with the magazine and the different levels of access that is then required and also with integration into the history of the forum

I pay mainly for the forum and the articles plus digital sub are a nice bonus. These threads irk me a bit as I’m a damn sight poorer than a lot that post on here but happy to pay a couple of quid per month for something I get so much out of. There aren’t many places like this, at least not that I’m aware of. It’s worth paying to keep it.

Well  so far the answers seem to suggest to the contrary. There appears to be a fair few who are just subscribing for the forum. But the irritating thing is that we’re being ignored.

I dunno. My take is that although I'm not massively inspired by the magazine content and some of the endless long-form digital articles, I'm happy enough to pay for a digital sub to help support the forum and the stuff I do want to read. If the cost of a digital sub were prohibitive, I might think differently, but right now, it seems like a small price to pay.

Maybe a halfway house would be a forum donation button so you can choose to make contribution specifically to support the forum side of things, though I think you'd have to accept that there's probably no way of ensuring that it goes only towards forum upkeep.

Everyone likes different aspects of the site, you can choose to make a relatively small payment and pick and choose which bits you like. I don't really have a problem with that and I don't want some bloated, over-complicated gimmicky forum software coming between me and content.

How much would you pay for a forum-only subscription is the question I guess. And how much would that have to be to offset potential ad revenue income for the site if it turned out to be as popular as you think? And then of course the potential loss of digital subscriptions to forum-only ones.

Thats pretty much how I see it.  I value this place and don't want it to go bust hence paying for a subscription. I've no interesting in the magazine at all

its not run how I would run it but that is beside the point.  Its run how Mark and Hannah run it.  their priorities are different to mine

its not run how I would run it

Forum needs a ‘sigh of relief’ button 😀

Oh, fwiw, I don't have huge issues with the actual forum functionality here,  but for the last week or so, the main site articles won't display images if I'm using Safari. I e-mailed tech about it and didn't even get a reply. The Sun and Pedalon are the other two sites that do the same, no idea why, but I can always use Chrome and see the pretty pictures.

I suppose I could throw a whole 'I give you money, fix it!' strop over it, but it's probably some niche coding thing designed to punish those of us who don't upgrade our compute every six months 🙂

I pay to support the mag because I've been in print journalism and design since the mid 70s.

I'll be sad to see it go. And at some point it will.

I've just had to close our three local newspapers due to the massive increase in print and production costs and a fixed/declining readership. I've worked on them for 12 years and it is heartbreaking.

EDIT and though I don't post on much other than the guitar threads this is the only none news or guitar forum I use. TDPRI TGP and The Fretboard get a lot of stuff from me but when I need bike advice its here I come, and i've not been let down yet.

No, I have no interest in a forum only membership.

Why is it these topics always descend into an argument between various folk who simply don't take time to actually read the OP?

Nobody is criticising the magazine or its content.

Nobody is proposing dropping the mag or running the place solely as a forum. I believe the OP was intended as a means to funnel more money into the forum in addition to the magazine. Clearly people aren't happy and as you have said on numerous occasions short of everyone being subscribers you need happy punters to keep the place alive.

Stop with the "freeloader" bollocks. It's been pointed out time and time again that the free members subsidise the place via ad revenue and that subscribers don't even come close to paying the bills. If you want to kill this place then biting the hand that feeds is a good way to go about it.

Spot on squirrelking.

I like the (physical) mag, and that is essentially what I pay for.

I spend way more time on the forum, but see it as part and parcel of my subscription.

As a full member, I have virtually no issues or problems with Ads or functionality of the forum, so maybe I've missed what people are complaining about. Occasionally it's a little buggy, but works well for me 99% of the time.

As others have said, what would those just wanting a forum expect to pay given the digital sub is just 50p per week?

Oh, and I think the classifieds is also fine, I have built my last 5 bikes in the last 3 years pretty much from stuff people have been getting rid of on here ... and I find it much better than Pinkbike classifieds.

In terms of suggested improvements:

- 'Sold' classifieds adds should be hidden/be deleted after a short period of time (it's a bit of a drag scrolling through pages of Sold ads and 'featured ads' before you get to the new standard ads)

- easier posting of images (ie straight from your phone) to forum posts ... not sure why this can happen with Classifieds, but not the forum?

- I wonder whether some of the better forum topics can be more creatively used to inspire features/mag articles? It's happened a bit, eg the Giant warranty saga resulted in a feature and a podcast, but things like TJs summer tour would, I think, have made for a great mag/online feature. Or, the journey of Weeksy and his lad in going Enduro/DH racing? More of this would, perhaps, create a stronger link between the mag/website and the forum?

- and picking up some of Weeksy's comments, there's a lot of 'how to' knowledge on the forum, how about using the wealth of knowledge on here to provide some online 'repair/fettling' guides/notes etc?