You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I am after someone to design a logo for my partners startup business. If anymore can help please PM me
Thanks Steve.
Binners my be able to help
im a designer, this may sound blunt but is it a paid job?
+1 binners ^
Also my friend Dawn could help, she created the brand Rafflebike identity (among others, but sport is definitely her niche)
https://www.behance.net/dawn_broadbent
dawn.broadbent@hotmail. dot c.o.m.
Do you need any pie charts?
For logos, I've actually had great success with 99designs in the past.
A local/UK business is an entirely different process, it requires more research to find a designer whose style you can relate to and who 'gets' your concept. In order to keep the number of revisions to a minimum.
Given the current climate, I'd choose local/UK over crowdsourcing every single time. Just saying this in case you are actually considering an online marketplace.
I've just messaged you @mokeysfeet. Whether it gets through to you is anyone's guess. From recent experience, probably not. If not then if you email me on rowlinsonadam@gmail.com then I can send you through some examples of logo design work and we could have a chat about what you need
Following with interest to see if Joepud’s question is answered.
I’ve used binners....and he did me a logo😀. He gets a big 👍 from me
Exposure is payment, right?
Exposure is payment, right?
haha yeh, thats exactly what i tell my bank when its time to pay the mortgage.
Following with interest to see if Joepud’s question is answered.
me too. it always amazes me when people expect designers to work for free. no one would think of getting a builder in and being like look i need a few shelves putting up but can you do it for free it will be good experience and you will get "exposure."
Simply put if you refuse to pay someone that shows exactly how little you value their service.
no one would think of getting a builder in and being like look i need a few shelves putting up but can you do it for free
You’d be wrong. I’ve lost count of the number of freebies that my various employers have done over the years just to get a picture in the local paper.
People are generally ill disposed to any large scale construction in their vicinity and a bit of positive exposure can go a long way to balance that out.
You’d be wrong. I’ve lost count of the number of freebies that my various employers have done over the years just to get a picture in the local paper.
For me the difference in this hypothetical builder putting up these hypothetical shelves is the shelves wont be used to make money. Also im assuming in the local paper it would say work done by bob the builder. And also whats the ROI on getting these hypothetical shelves in a hypothetical magazine. The logo will be used to promote the business and make said business money and unless they tell everyone who interacts with their brand who designed it you can't compare the two. It could end up on tshirt for example which im sure would be sold.... or maybe the shop could give them away in return for "positive exposure" after all it goes a long way.
Designers working for free is a real bug of mine and its deep rooted in this industry from agencies getting interns to people wanting a free logo or website. At the end of the day if designers work for free everyone expect free work from a designer. It devalues my craft something i have spent 10+ years doing. To be honest most of the people who ask for free design work are often more hassle than they are worth (which is very little) and have a very limited understand of how long it takes to make a logo or website.
Sorry to rant it just drives me mad when people expect a designer to work for free. The question these people need to ask themselves is would they also work for free, if the answer is no don't ask someone else to do it.
You’d be wrong. I’ve lost count of the number of freebies that my various employers have done over the years just to get a picture in the local paper.
Yeah but those freebies are always for charities, schools or other worthy causes (just like a designer may well design a logo in such a situation - I know I have). They don't just do it to be nice to Sharon & Dave who quite fancied getting an extension done for nowt.
They don’t just do it to be nice to Sharon & Dave who quite fancied getting an extension done for nowt.
But the positive exposure can go a long way to balance that out... When we go to Sharon and Dave's house and see the fancy free extension they will say bob did it for free then we phone bob for a free extension too. And thats all good because bobs also paying his bills with "positive exposure..." SMH.
Yeah good point - all that positive exposure has to be worth something, right?
I am now finding that old chestnut of providing free concepts at pitch stage is creeping back in too - for a time organisations weren't asking for it but they are again now and it frustrates me as we are a UX-led web agency so we need to do lots of thinking / research etc to deliver a website that meets the user needs and we can't do that at the pitch stage – we'd be just guessing.
Yeah good point – all that positive exposure has to be worth something, right?
yeh likely worth shirt buttons and we all know what they are worth.
Free pithes doesn't surprise me. Clients know agencies want / need work so will get away with it if they can. I left agency life about 5/6 years ago i got fed up with clients, pm, account mangers and working very late for even less reward. Im a product designer these days so very UX focused so totally get when your coming from. Clients see a few screens in a powerpoint and think thats it, some don't get the hours spent working on stuff thats ended up the bin or archive folder.
You should try being a photographer - people just straight up steal your work, never mind demand you work for free!
You should try being a photographer – people just straight up steal your work, never mind demand you work for free!
Yep - had similar - someone had a case study on their website showing some printed work they had done for a client however we did it. She claimed she had permission from the client to use it and that may be, but she didn't have our permission as copyright holders. That was a fun fight.
You should try being a photographer – people just straight up steal your work, never mind demand you work for free!
Similar happened to a friend. Someone stole a photo off his IG for a business card got it made then asked if they could use it. Once he said well ideally you should pay for the photo the guy was like oh no bother I will use another. Apparently he was just letting him know he was using the photo out of politeness... its like no the polite thing to do is say can i use this photo how much does it cost.
Still no answer from the OP though 🤷♂️
Clients see a few screens in a powerpoint and think thats it, some don’t get the hours spent working on stuff thats ended up the bin or archive folder.
I wonder if you could constantly video your screen to show the design process then supply them with a speeded up video of it? 🙂
Still no answer from the OP though 🤷♂️
yeh, funny that.
I wonder if you could constantly video your screen to show the design process then supply them with a speeded up video of it?
haha yeh, i would put one on my face too so they can see despair as i work on version 60 of their logo or website.
I used to get rubbish briefs via the Sales team. Being typical sales guys they didn’t want to go back to the clients with questions in case they pulled the ad.
So I started itemising on my invoices how much of the charge was down to inadequate information or insufficient copy or crap images being supplied.
They soon got the message. They just expected me to suck it up, and we’re supposed to be on the same side.
As a (young) graphic designer I soon figured that a day or two of your professional time was often considered (by even the happiest client) worth an hour or two of your client’s time. This often holds true whether they be a bike mechanic* or an executive of a global operation. 😉
Case in point - I once designed a logo for a famous bike brand yet never received a penny or a thankyou. In fairness, it was referred and handled via a (since-absent) friend who may in or may not have received some renumeration on my behalf! 20 years later they’ve updated the logo so it’s moot. But, a lesson learned! I still help people out, but nowadays it’s even worse with online ‘designers’ reselling one of the many thousands of royalty-free generic logo files that they’ve spent a few minutes tweaking and then charge only £50 for what is twenty minutes to half an hour of their time.
So when you give someone a fully-custom top-end service they’ll think your design is ‘worth‘ £50. Which it might be if you had spent twenty minutes tweaking a generic logo design for a local flower shop.
Working in design houses on an hourly rate was also a lesson. Clients would sub to the boss and then charge their clients quadruple or more for your work. Working 36 hours on a project might net me some grudging overtime from the boss, but it would net our client many thousands once he’d resold the work to the Met (as it happened).
*Bike-mechanic often report the same phenomenon. Their work will be most realistically valued by people who themselves have done it and/or raced the result. Same work is rarely valued the same by Average Joe who just wants it done for a few bob because how hard can it be? Fixing a puncture or tuning and servicing an Enduro/XC bike. Fiver, innit?
The future for most all of us (and our children) is a 90 hour week @ £8 per hr.
Or, if it doesn’t trouble your conscience - bag a big client and then farm the work out to your arty mate/someone online.
Still no answer from the OP though 🤷♂️yeh, funny that.
Not really, he’s probably busy talking to the designer that offered an email address and a chat about requirements, rather than bothering with the ones that just came on to moan about how shit customers are 😆
^ Either/or fallacy
As any bike mechanic will know, it’s possible/possibly essential to do both 😉
#notallcustomers
Someone stole a photo off his IG for a business card got it made then asked if they could use it.
Didn't someone on here wind up on the side of a van?
rather than bothering with the ones that just came on to moan about how shit customers are
LOL, there are a few moaners. Just for balance, luckily there are plenty of forum members who are happy to help others out for free (if that were the case, which I suspect it wasn't and the OP was happy to pay)
@Cougar yep (well, someone from here's photo anyway) https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/cheeky-****ers/
can't remember if there was a resolution to this in a later thread? Maybe @footflaps can let us know what happened!!
There are no-win-no-fee solicitors who'll take on this kind of stuff if the "borrower" doesn't want to play ball (i.e. either pay you or remove it) and I can't imagine it would be a difficult case to win!
Not really, he’s probably busy talking to the designer that offered an email address and a chat about requirements, rather than bothering with the ones that just came on to moan about how shit customers are
Hah yes, that is a possibility, still it would be nice to know. As you might be able to tell, us designers get a bit shirty about this stuff sometimes.
FWIW, I did a logo for a local charity helping vulnerable people get out walking in the countryside a couple of years ago. I attend a meeting then did some initial creative (probably about 6 hours in total which equals £400 + VAT had I been charging for it). I never heard back from the person yet they have used a version of what I did on their website (with some very minor alterations). I don't understand why as I was doing it for free anyway so why he didn't come back to me I'll never know - other than the agreement was that we'd charge him for a website design and build once the branding had been done but it seems he just wanted to bung his new logo on his old website for no fee.
luckily there are plenty of forum members who are happy to help others out for free
Never moan about offering freebies. That would be anus horribilis.
other than the agreement was that we’d charge him for a website design and build once the branding had been done
A verbal agreement isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, etc. In any case, would you wish to be building his website knowing that he possibly/likely isn’t as good as his word?
LOL, there are a few moaners.
as one of the key moaners to be fair its one of my biggest issues i have with the design industry people just dont see the value in it due to all the bedroom designers.
@zilog6128 Yeah, that's the bunny. I too would be interested to know if there was ever a resolution. I've half a mind to reopen the thread.
Hah yes, that is a possibility, still it would be nice to know.
If you knock the "-6/" off the end of the URL then you will get your answer
one of my biggest issues i have with the design industry people just dont see the value in it due to all the bedroom designers.
If you can't beat 'em...?
Perceived value is a problem in many walks of life. Over on Facebook in one of the escape room groups just now I'm talking to someone who's hawking some online interactive theatre experience at £40/head. My reaction was "sounds cool, but how much?!" He's replied talking about cost of production and design, staff time, tailor-made bespoke experiences and so forth which is all well and good but to my mind as a punter the question I'm asking is "is it worth forty quid to me?" A Fabergé egg is a unique piece of art hand-made from exotic materials... or it's several thousand pounds for a $%^&ing egg!
If someone is happy paying £50 for something knocked up from Clipart in ten minutes rather than £500 for a quality piece of customised work then whilst it seems to me to be a particularly ill-advised place to be scrimping, ultimately that's their lookout is it not?
In any case, would you wish to be building his website knowing that he possibly/likely isn’t as good as his word?
Well no absolutely not but I didn't know that at the time and you'd kinda expect that the founder of a charity that is focussed on helping others would be an honest kind of person. Still, you live and learn.
If you can’t beat ’em…?
then how do i pay my mortgage.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">One of my many main bugs of this situation is these "businesses" who ask for a free logo or website when you ask them for something for free they think you're on crack. A car dealer once asked me for a free website so I asked him for a free car he looked at me like i was mental - claimed selling car was his business... its like hello what do you think being a designer is for me. </span>
If someone is happy paying £50 for something knocked up from Clipart in ten minutes rather than £500 for a quality piece of customised work then whilst it seems to me to be a particularly ill-advised place to be scrimping, ultimately that’s their lookout is it not?
Not really us as a design community should put much more worth in the value we give to businesses. We need to educate clients and make them understand why a logo costs a lot of money rather than bending and being yeh sure i will do it for free. If you are offering your services for free it shows how much you value your skill or dont.
Meh, thanks for the reply. I have emailed binners. It is a paid job.
Jeez you go off, have a life and this is the stick you get.
Meh, thanks for the reply. I have emailed binners. It is a paid job.
Luckily Binners is dirt cheap and takes Greggs gift vouchers! 🙂
Monkeysfeet - nobody is giving you stick directly. The discussion became about the wider issue of people being asked to do work for free.
I look forward to seeing what Binners creates for you.
Agree, i think in the entire discussion referenced maybe twice and it was just that the initial question went unanswered. No one gave you stick or anything of the sort. It was simply a discussion by a group of people who share a profession.
I look forward to seeing what Binners creates for you.
While you are waiting you can see what binners did for my launderette on his instagram
If you are offering your services for free it shows how much you value your skill or dont.
Another either/or fallacy. Sometimes we do it to offer someone in a/the community a leg-up. I don’t lower my quality, experience* or skills in order to do so, but it may just take a couple of weeks to deliver instead of a couple of days were it a different client/situation.
In my case as it is I’m early ‘retired‘ on account of it falling to me to be a de-facto full-time carer for a spouse with now compound disabilities/round-the-clock needs. I no longer have the hours in a day or night to offer my professional skills full time, but I do sometimes have the hours over a week/at night to offer family, friends and community members some help. I also *receive* help at times. None of which is any reflection of my (nor anyone’s) objective, or subjective assessment of (award-winning) design skills/35 years experience. It just is what it is.
While it’s no doubt true that some people might offer to do things for free/for favours or at reduced rates because they ‘don’t value their skills’, It’s wholly fallacious to apply that assumption to all situations. Harumph!
Do you need any pie charts?
Under-appreciated contribution.
the problem is, there's no real reason why a "bedroom designer" with enough talent CAN'T churn out something just as good as a "proper" designer, with a fraction of the overheads. Everyone has access to the same professional tools cheaply now. I guess it's only going to get worse too, with potential clients outsourcing design work to countries like India, and other designers made redundant in the wake of Covid turning "bedroom designer" themselves in order to get a bit of money coming in.as one of the key moaners to be fair its one of my biggest issues i have with the design industry people just dont see the value in it due to all the bedroom designers.
Everyone has access to the same professional tools
I can buy a trowel but I couldn't build a house.
That’s because you’re a ham-fisted oaf 😂 I bet someone out there who isn’t a professional builder has done it though, and made a decent job of it.
I had a designer approach me asking to design a logo for me to he could build his portfolio. He did a cracking job of it so the least I can do on.a regular basis is give him some credit. And the fact it's been copied by other brands suggests its quitw good i think.
Greg Trowman at The Black Eye project if anyone's interested.
Under-appreciated contribution.
😀
the problem is, there’s no real reason why a “bedroom designer” with enough talent CAN’T churn out something just as good as a “proper” designer, with a fraction of the overheads. Everyone has access to the same professional tools cheaply now. I
I never said a bedroom designer couldn't produce quality work i just think offering work for free devalues what we do and thats something I stand by. Just look at music no one values it any more the idea of paying for a single album is madness for most. Another way of looking at it is does working for free actually exclude people. Only a select group of people will be able to work for free, basically those who are fortunate enough (could say privileged) to have financial support to do it for free. For example I had to turn down a placement at M&C Saatchi when I graduated because it wasn't paid while other more fortunate uni friends were able to take up unpaid interns at places like W&K and BBH. I feel like its not complicated do some work for someone and they pay some how either an exchange of services, money, or even stock options
Another way of looking at it is does working for free actually exclude people.
I think your platform is tipping over at this point with the weight of the extra strawmen.
As a case in point I’ve only ever offered ‘free/voluntary contribution’ logo-work a couple of times (ie two) in 35 years. I’m not losing sleep over it* It helped a couple of people out. One was an animal sanctuary and not-for profit, and one was an STWr who was being made redundant. I also know what being made ‘redundant‘ feels like (not by an employer, I had to quit my career because of a situation beyond my control/was needed elsewhere)
So no, I’ve not made anyone redundant, and I’m not aware of any graphic designers offering to work for free except (as per example) for the very occasional good-will offer (on own time and own dime)
If some pro bike mechanic happens to chance by you and tricky MTB breakdown on the trail - and offers to help you out? You going to berate them for dealing their trade a ‘blow’?
* actually not true - insomniac ‘night shift’ shenanigans! Computers are a blessing and a curse. Remember when it was all Cow gum, scalpels, Rotring and angle-lamps?
the problem is, there’s no real reason why a “bedroom designer” with enough talent CAN’T churn out something just as good as a “proper” designer, with a fraction of the overheads.
Have we discussed how low some ‘Clients’ standards are yet?
They really believe their nieces ‘design’ in Word is epic.
I think your platform is tipping over at this point with the weight of the extra strawmen
Really good of you to just totally disregard a personal experience and one that's repeated throughout our industry. Just look at the lack of diversity in this industry but that's another topic.
And as already covered doing work for a charity or not for profit is a lot different than doing something for a start up who will likely make money off a designers work. If you design a t-shirt for someone and they profit off your work by selling said t-shirtwhy shouldn't you be compensated?
I have also done free work in the past for a fair few charities which I feel is reasonable thing to do.
We need to educate clients and make them understand why a logo costs a lot of money rather than bending and being yeh sure i will do it for free. If you are offering your services for free it shows how much you value your skill or dont.
I was in no way suggesting that you (or anyone) work for free. Rather, if there's a market for cheap shit design then you can whine about that, or you can capitalise on it and then potentially upsell (you don't want that, you want this because this is why it's better). Why do you think Seat / Skoda / VW / Audi are all different marques when they're all selling ostensibly the same products? You could put your name to the good stuff and disassociate yourself from the churn, no? Take on a trainee even, if there's sufficient market demand.
I'm in mind of tattoo artists here. Every good tattooist will have a portfolio of their bespoke work as examples to encourage commissions, but most parlours will still have folders and posters up in reception of 'flash,' standard crap that they can sell day-to-day to teenagers who want pattern 37B traced onto their ankle.
Coming back to this as I just offered to do a quick bit of leaflet artwork for free for a friend who runs a local church group.
She asked me on Tuesday night and I spent yesterday chasing her for the things I needed (ie, NOT .ppt files) which she finally sent to me an hour ago with the parting shot...
When do you think you will be able to return it to me? Sorry for being cheeky - I need to get it printed. Thanks again
FFS, I feel like telling her to do one now.
Sounds typical! 🙂
I have a policy of never doing print or design work for friends now, either commercial or charity related. It always goes tits-up at some stage.
I try not to make friends of existing customers either - but I'm a grumpy arse so that's not hard!
I don't do "mates rates".
Its either free or charged fully. In return I don't ask them for cheap deals. Seems to work out.
@johndoh haha typical 😃 I had a friend of my dad's once wanted me to do some artwork for some banners for a charity he's involved with. I was happy to do the artwork for free as I was going to charge him to print them. Came back to me and said that he was going to get them printed online as it was cheaper, only could I still do the artwork for free as the online place don't do artwork? NO. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CHEAPER 🤣🤣🤣
I actually do loads of deals with other local people & businesses. Love a swap/barter! Helps make contacts and can be a bit of fun. Things I've got in swaps lately: wetsuit, big bag of oak offcuts, rack of locally-farmed pork ribs, weeks worth of bacon sandwiches from cafe, one-off ceramic sculpture, window cleaning, van service, house move 😃I don’t do “mates rates”.
Its either free or charged fully. In return I don’t ask them for cheap deals. Seems to work out.
Yep, I've traded photos/design for stuff. But only small scale stuff. My instamodel mate asked me to do flyers for her beauty business and wanted to pay me in product...
My instamodel mate asked me to do flyers for her beauty business and wanted to pay me in product…
That can't be left hanging 🙂
When do you think you will be able to return it to me? Sorry for being cheeky – I need to get it printed. Thanks again
FFS, I feel like telling her to do one now.
Why is asking when it will done a problem? Surely that is a pretty reasonable question even if it is a favour.
I'm assuming from the context the printer's deadline was yesterday.
Why is asking when it will done a problem? Surely that is a pretty reasonable question even if it is a favour.
I’m assuming from the context the printer’s deadline was yesterday.
Exactly. I am happy to help but she suddenly threw a deadline in as well (which I had no idea about). I ended up working late last night to do it.
In particular it was the wording I need to get it printed. that pissed me off. Had she said something like 'I know it's a bit last minute but I'd really appreciate it if you could do it as soon as possible because the printer has a slot to be able to get it printed for me tomorrow'
Now she has asked if I can do some Facebook headers and artwork for a big printed banner too.
FFS - I am 53, I should have learned before now to never do favours.
Is she called Louise? 🙂
Is she called Louise?
No, because I have never had (nor desire to have) sexual relations with her. All Louise's are mad ex partners. My ex-Louise was quite mad.