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She does for herself. She has comorbidities which change the balance of risk. As may many of the protestors, which is why we shouldn’t be so ready to judge
I assume you're not willing to name the comorbidties ?
(there's not much that vaccines can cause that COVID can't also do - but worse). I'd suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
Oh dear sheeple
I’d suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
+1
because it is was too much of a hot spot during the lockdowns proper
There’s a whole book to be written from that one depressingly true sentence. Imagine how the anti-maskers and antivaxx protesters would have reacted had Johnson & Co done a responsible job and called an actual proper enforced lockdown early 2020
Oh dear sheeple
Persuasive.
@morecashthandash for the record I agreed with your post earlier but the rest of my post was deemed inflammatory and removed.
(there’s not much that vaccines can cause that COVID can’t also do – but worse). I’d suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
I agree
@theotherjonv This will do nothing to placate you but do understand why you feel angry at this stickering. To be blunt, this issue has been gnawing away at me since Saturday along with the litter along the route. It is vandalism, pure and simple. A single sticker I can ignore but when they are being plastered over anything and everything including red buses with hundreds, if not thousands, of the darn things it becomes an eyesore.
My intention is to contact the various organisors that were involved with the rally to make a complaint. If anyone else has noticed this in their local area, obviously including yourself here, then you need to make a complaint. Once I've established contact details I will be happy to pass this on to anyone, simply send a PM.
I’m not anti-vaxx, my kids have been vaxxed but I believe that each one should be considered on its merits. As an example, I’ve refused the flu vaxx and that is my personal choice and right to do so. I would say the vast majority of those refusing the Covid vaxx are similar to me and not at all “anti-vaxx”. Please realise there is a difference.
...
What the public aren’t realising is that our freedoms are being curtailed by bills being sneaked through. We must not lose the democratic right to peaceful protest, it is our human right. The Government are getting a very easy ride and our MPs are doing naff all to challenge them. There is no opposition
The problem here is that you've conflated two entirely separate concerns. Maybe the 'rally' has done so too, I don't know.
On the second, I couldn't agree more. The people in power are mostly useless self-serving shitbags, and the 'opposition' recognised a poisoned chalice when they first saw it five years ago and have been keeping their heads down ever since.
Legislation like the Investigatory Powers Bill troubles me greatly and coupled with the very obvious notion that no-one in the house has the faintest of scoobies about technology terrifies me. Are our liberties being eroded, without doubt, and I'd champion anyone who chose to campaign or protest that.
But.
No-one is forcing anyone to have vaccines. There are many who cannot have them, even. The suggestion that this is something which is even remotely likely to happen in the future belongs on a Farage poster, it is somewhere between a straw man and and outright lie.
Being told to temporarily take extra precautions during a global pandemic is not an assault on our freedoms. People have lost their livelihoods and that's devastating; people haven't been able to go to the pub and that's irritating; but the cold hard fact, the uncomfortable truth if you like, is those complaining aren't instead dead.
We have masks, we have hand sanitiser, we have soap, all in abundance now. And we should be bloody grateful for this because without it we would 100% still be in lockdown and likely planet-wide. Being asked to clean your hands and not sneeze on people is not a removal of our liberties, it is a minor inconvenience. Screaming "I can't breathe!" when asked to wear a mask is, with a very few rare exceptions, firmly into the Grow The **** Up bucket. We've all had over a year to work out how masks work, parents have potty-trained toddlers in less time. I wore masks loads wen I was a child, they were the faces of Spider-Man cut out of the back of cereal boxes and I neither panicked nor suffocated to death.
In lumping these 'issues' together your first argument badly undermined your argument against the second. And if you're standing in a packed crowd with a hundred anti-vaxxers and various conspiracy theory nutjobs none of whom are wearing masks in protest then you've ensured that absolutely no-one else is going to take that cause seriously at all no matter how noble your aims may be.
Being told to temporarily take extra precautions during a global pandemic is not an assault on our freedoms.
Highlight iof a well thought out and eloquent post.
If the real Cougar would come back to the forum, that would be great
You're all bastards and I hate you.
Also, the 15-minute edit window is monkey spunk. I despise making typos.
There is no opposition, well it’s hardly surprising as the leader of the Labour Party is a member of the Trilateral Commission. For those who don’t know this organisation was set up by a member of the Rockefeller family. Nuff said.
Not enough said. Are you into New World Order stuff as well?
The really dangerous conspiracy theorists are the ones than can mix up reasonable points and concerns with stuff like that.
I think the relatively densely populated multi-generational households including older people with limited English skills/community engagement outside their ethnic ‘bubble’ etc is more of an issue, and they have more reason than most to mistrust the government/authority.
That’s quite a big assumption.
But it's a pretty fair analysis, these communities are not complaining loudly about the restrictions, they are largely ignoring them or are ignorant of the rules. The result is directly impacting the wider communities they live amongst and to be honest its more than a little annoying knowing your borough is top of the infection league tables when the local analysis shows the cases are very tightly geographically constrained.
chrispo
Free MemberCrispo – unfortunatly no she does not in any way. there is no evidence and no sound argument for putting children at risk by not vaccinating them.
She does for herself. She has comorbidities which change the balance of risk. As may many of the protestors, which is why we shouldn’t be so ready to judge.
(there’s not much that vaccines can cause that COVID can’t also do – but worse). I’d suggest she ought to talk this over with a well-informed mainstream scientist/doctor
I agree
You can't have it all ways - either she has sound scientific reasons not to vaccinate, as you stated (can you name one or two general ones, just for fun ?) or you agree that these aren't good reasons and she needs to become better informed
100% agree with that post cougar
Cougar
Full MemberAlso, the 15-minute edit window is monkey spunk. I despise making typos.
mod mods!
You’re all bastards and I hate you.
🤣🤣
Excellent post there Cougar. Heartily agree.
Oh,
it’s been noticed that not all of them speak English and this has also been the case in other European countries.
It's been the case in non-English countries that people don't speak English? Like, people in France are worryingly speaking French?
Have I misread / misunderstood this? Surely I have.
It’s nonsensical babble, of course you’ve misunderstood it.
Everyone speaks English. Some people simply don't hear you the first time. Or more annoyingly pretend not to understand.
SORRY DO I NEED TO SPEAK SLOWER?
Actually I once saw two British coppers walking down the street speaking in fluent Spanish to each other.
They were wearing No1 tunic dress and pointy helmets, it looked proper bizarre.
Mind you it was in Gibraltar which reduced the shock value a tad.
And if you’re standing in a packed crowd with a hundred anti-vaxxers and various conspiracy theory nutjobs none of whom are wearing masks in protest then you’ve ensured that absolutely no-one else is going to take that cause seriously at all no matter how noble your aims may be.
and if you have preexisting health conditions that mean you can't get vaccinated safely dont go and stand in a dense* crowd of shouty people likely to be carriers.
*figuratively and literally
Just catching up, what were the 2 key reasons healthy person should not be taking the vaccine and why we should all be protesting about it?
Cougar 100%
it’s been noticed that not all of them speak English and this has also been the case in other European countries.
Sorry but that is complete nonsense to suggest that there is a "secret Cabal European Police Force".
Of course there is. But the mainstream media don't want you to know that, you know, because they're all so pro-EU. It's probably the EU "making" us all have vaccines here as well, that's why the made us have our own vaccine procurement scheme, so that more people in the UK could be forcibly injected sooner than those in the EU countries. It's all starting to add up... the scales are beginning to fall from my eyes...
Fortunately there is room for a gaggle of selfish bastards to remain unvaccinated and still achieve a decent level of population protection for both the vaccinated and those who cannot receive the vaccine. If uptake was a bit closer to the critical % I'd be less inclined to ignore the morons and conspiracy nutters.
The downside is that population protection gained by the rest of us sticking our arms out will also protect the antivaxx tossers, who will then proclaim that their continued good health proves there was never a problem and we were all sheeple.
Piers Corbyn and his team were at the Twickenham mass vaccination centre yesterday, handing out yellow-card stats and telling people in the queue they would be dead in 5 years. He then turned up at the Lovedown protest giving interviews to the YouTube streamers.
C4 9pm tonight...
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-anti-vax-conspiracy
telling people in the queue they would be dead in 5 years
Pretty sure that would fall pretty neatly into the definition of a public order offence. Intent to cause alarm and distress etc.
Piers Corbyn
Whenever I think what a screw-up I am as a parent, I remember Old Ma Corbyn. Maybe I'm not so bad.
There is no opposition, well it’s hardly surprising as the leader of the Labour Party is a member of the Trilateral Commission. For those who don’t know this organisation was set up by a member of the Rockefeller family. Nuff said.
It's worrying that anti-Semitic tropes like this are allowed to stay published on this site, and not called out more strongly (Kilo/Grum/Tomd excepted).
It’s worrying that anti-Semitic tropes like this are allowed to stay published on this site,
Because a large number of us had no idea what this was, is my assumption.
Pretty sure that would fall pretty neatly into the definition of a public order offence. Intent to cause alarm and distress etc.
He mentions it here too. The usual 'some people say' line.
Corbyn is obviously at one extremity, but as Cougar says, this all gets mixed up in a single protest.
It’s worrying that anti-Semitic tropes like this are allowed to stay published on this site
The Trilateral Commission is the other sort of New World Order. It's the wildly right wing, evangelical Christian sort that don't like anyone who isn't hugely wealthy (and white, obvs) running the world, and think that Jews (along with black and brown people, Catholics and lefties) should be treated like the unter-mensch.
Edit; It's easy to get the wealthy conspiracy families mixed up; Rothchilds = Evil Jewish conspiracy to take over the world through banking and media. Rockafeller = Evil Right wing Christians who want to take over the world via subserviently right-wing client governments.
Do try to keep up.
It’s worrying that anti-Semitic tropes like this are allowed to stay published on this site, and not called out more strongly (Kilo/Grum/Tomd excepted).
If that is anti-semitic then fair enough, you're correct, however I'd imagine lots of folks on here are like me and have no clue of the religious views held by famous families or individuals, if I criticise someone does that now mean I'm anti their religion?.
How bizarre.
Edit - MCTD beat me to it, as ever. 🙂
‘some people say’
What can you do about people who know how to make claims without actually stating their claim?
Nuff said.
Like so.
Another reason to distrust Bill Gates
'Piers Corbyn and his team were at the Twickenham mass vaccination centre yesterday, handing out yellow-card stats and telling people in the queue they would be dead in 5 years.'
That's a bit of a bold statement and i'd genuinely like to see how he knows this because the vaccinations have only been in circulation for a few months! 🙂
There was a guy in my local over the weekend spouting off about this on Saturday night....it went from an agenda to poison the public to make them compliant to the vaccination being a birth control exercise to genetic manipulation so you have to serve the ruling elite and then finally finished with the crescendo of its a way of ushering in the 'new world order', but couldn't explain who 'they' were, why 'they' would do it or anything else once you scratch the surface!! 🙂
The downside is that population protection gained by the rest of us sticking our arms out will also protect the antivaxx tossers, who will then proclaim that their continued good health proves there was never a problem and we were all sheeple
True, but a small price to pay for getting up and running again. Tossers are part of the deal of life, and though they may be getting more difficult to ignore (thanks internet) and more influential (thanks again, internet)
I still enjoyed a pint yesterday, in a beer garden, served by an 18 yr old who was vocally pro-mask and pro-vax.
Thanks real life.
Tossers are part of the deal of life, and though they may be getting more difficult to ignore (thanks internet) and more influential (thanks again, internet)
Was only saying yesterday how different the world would be if we didn't have social media.
... he said, on social media.
Just catching up, what were the 2 key reasons healthy person should not be taking the vaccine and why we should all be protesting about it?
I think there is a moral discussion to be had about taking the vaccine, for people who are at low risk of developing complications of Covid. Severe Covid is pretty rare in people under 40, and potentially the risks of vaccines exceed that - perhaps notably in the case of the AZ thrombosis where the risk appears higher in younger individuals. There may be an age threshold where the risk to an individual outweighs the individual's benefits (I feel a bit queasy writing that - because I'm sure it'll be interpreted in bad faith by some).
At such a point, having the vaccine becomes less about managing your individual risk and more about population health. Is there a moral obligation to get vaccinated to protect those around us? There was an interesting edition of R4's Moral Maze about just this topic. As an NHS worker I've had 'flu jabs every year for precisely that reason, and of course I had the Covid jab too.
The other issue is that even if you don't want the vaccine for your own protection or for those around you, and you don't see having it as a moral obligation, the sooner we all get vaccinated the sooner we can end all these restrictions!
The trouble is that anti-vax argument is not framed in these moral quandaries. It's people shouting loudly about things they don't understand. There's an extra special irony when those people are fat people in their fifties and sixties who are exactly the sort of people whose life could be cut short by Covid.
Source: I'm a doctor, but I'm not an immunologist / vaccinologist / infection dr / public health expert or anything actually useful for this discussion.
Because a large number of us had no idea what this was, is my assumption.
This is why it's dangerous.
The better conspiracy theorists can mix this stuff in to a seemingly reasonable argument. Getting the ideas out there and shared without coming across as an obvious anti-Semite is a better tactic.
Just to be clear - it appears the poster believes that the world is run by a cabal of powerful individuals hell bent on enslaving the world's population for some sort of nefarious plan. This was originally a fair right conspiracy, but now comes in many flavours all of them awful and of varying degrees of ridiculous.
It's like someone sharing their thoughts on cuisine only to throw in half way through that they shit in their middle kitchen drawer. You should not ignore that fact when considering anything that came before and after it.
You should not ignore that fact when considering anything that came before and after it.
What if they tell you that such an action is a solid defiance of the Great Reshit? Sounds reasonable now doesn’t it...
Wow! Have not been on STW forum for a long time, what a truly hateful place it has become.
So all anti vaxxer’s are right wing extremists, racists, stupid, mental etc? That’s an impressively bigoted view.
Most of the so called “anti-vaxxer’s” I know are not actually anti-vaxxer’s at all, they are just anti this vaccine. The demographic of that group of people is left and right wing and centrist. There are male/female, several different religions, several different races and as far as I am aware the majority are not mentally ill. The group interestingly includes a large percentage of airline pilots so people pre disposed to critical thinking and certainly on the more intelligent side of the equation. As well as the pilots there are lawyers, doctors and scientists.
I really don’t want to tell other people what they should and shouldn’t put in their body or they don’t have a right to protest just because their view of the world isn’t the same as mine. This situation is so reminiscent of Brexit. Brexiteer’s were told they were stupid and racist etc and look how that ended up, a total nightmare.
I have had C19 and personally really do not have a problem with protesters. Living in a free country means that people can have a different opinion to me and have a right to voice that opinion. Takes a lot of people to make the world go round. Life is hard enough right now, be nice!
So all anti vaxxer’s are right wing extremists, racists, stupid, mental etc?
No, they are not. Piers Corbyn might be only one of those. Those chanting in the OP might be a few of those. Many might well be none of those. Depends on what they say or do, and many say or do very different things.
Most of the so called “anti-vaxxer’s” I know [...] left and right wing and centrist[...] male/female, several different religions, several different races [...] pilots, lawyers, doctors and scientists.
That's an awful lot of people. I don't think I know a single anti-vaxxer. Perhaps you are talking about people you have encountered in your online anti-vax groups?
This situation is so reminiscent of Brexit. Brexiteer’s were told they were stupid and racist etc and look how that ended up, a total nightmare.
Yes. Totally.
The group interestingly includes a large percentage of airline pilots
Well that's me convinced. I often look to my local airline pilot for health advice.
they don’t have a right to protest just because their view of the world isn’t the same as mine
Just noticed this. The right to protest does not mean the right not to be criticised for joining in any particular protest. Or the right to not be challenged as to your reasons for joining any particular protest. Protest away... not everyone will be clapping.
So all anti vaxxer’s are right wing extremists, racists, stupid, mental etc? That’s an impressively bigoted view.
So far I don't think anybody has espoused this view? many posters have said that as no one is being forced to take a vaccine, being "anti" something that is voluntary is a non-sequitur.
be nice!
handing out leaflets telling people that they're going to die in 5 years because they followed public health guidelines doesn't sound especially nice. Selling a yellow-starred tee shirt with "Not vaccinated" in place of the original "Juden" doesn't seem overly pleasant either.
Most of the so called “anti-vaxxer’s” I know are not actually anti-vaxxer’s at all,
I think this is the point several people are making. The issues that having all these people coming together at a freedom protest is causing. I know a few friends who are hesitant, concerned with accelerated trials and risk vs. benefit. They're not anti-vax.
I think there is a moral discussion to be had about taking the vaccine, for people who are at low risk of developing complications of Covid. Severe Covid is pretty rare in people under 40, and potentially the risks of vaccines exceed that – perhaps notably in the case of the AZ thrombosis where the risk appears higher in younger individuals.
I brought this up on another thread a while ago and was met wih sneering. I think what may be different now is that the Indian variant is more serious for younger people than previous variants? A principle that was mentioned was that a person should be treated/vaccinated/whatever only if it was for their OWN benefit, not just for a general good.
be nice!
As someone who has been repeatedly abused by covid sceptics on Twitter when I replied to a thread explaining that I'd lost a parent and an uncle to the virus, my feeling is that they really can get in the sea.
I think there is a moral discussion to be had about taking the vaccine, for people who are at low risk of developing complications of Covid. Severe Covid is pretty rare in people under 40, and potentially the risks of vaccines exceed that – perhaps notably in the case of the AZ thrombosis where the risk appears higher in younger individuals. There may be an age threshold where the risk to an individual outweighs the individual’s benefits (I feel a bit queasy writing that – because I’m sure it’ll be interpreted in bad faith by some).
At such a point, having the vaccine becomes less about managing your individual risk and more about population health. Is there a moral obligation to get vaccinated to protect those around us? There was an interesting edition of R4’s Moral Maze about just this topic. As an NHS worker I’ve had ‘flu jabs every year for precisely that reason, and of course I had the Covid jab too.
You see for me, it was always about other people. Not that I was immune and invulnerable but my sense of duty meant that it was important for me to have it to reduce the risk to others.
I look at it in a not dissimilar way as others have had to deal with conscription in a world war - only hundreds of thousands of times less risky and unpleasant. As a young fit and healthy person the place least likely for you to stay that way was in uniform at the front. But they did it to protect society at large and to return society to normal as fast as possible. Having a shot in the arm with an associated very slim risk of complications to achieve the same thing a few generations later does no seem to be asking too much of myself or the millions younger than me. That there is talk of the need for incentivising it's taking to get people through the door is not imo the best advert for the progress we have made in the intervening years.
On the flip side, if paying for the last 18 months looks like a shafting for the under 40s I do feel the oldies should be asked to put their hands in their pockets too.
Wow! Have not been on STW forum for a long time, what a truly hateful place it has become.
Well that's easily solved then isn't it ? 😆
Dont let the door skelp you on the 4r5e on the way out 😉
I think what may be different now is that the Indian variant is more serious for younger people than previous variants?
Well that is the thing isnt it, and the big worry.
The virus is looking to be able to reproduce itself, and there is the worry that it will mutate more and more in order to find a host in order to allow itself to do that. So maybe it will adapt to be able to infect younger and younger people with more serious heath problems following on.
The more room we give it to mutate the more chance it has to adapt itself to younger hosts. Got to nip it in the bud so to speak, and to do that everyone needs to be vaccinated.
Its funny(well not really) but if the covid virus had the killing power of the Spanish flu virus, I doubt we'd have anyone opposed to vaccinations. If entire families young to old were dropping like flies, nobody would be questioning a cure or method of reducing deaths.
I wonder if im the only one who wishes old Piers Corbyn ,being of the age that this virus kills more of shouldn't get it just so the **** pops his clogs and does us all a big favour.
You see for me, it was always about other people. Not that I was immune and invulnerable but my sense of duty meant that it was important for me to have it to reduce the risk to others.
I would agree. But even if you're driven by altruism, it's still your choice.
Whereas from a medical ethics perspective, it's harder to compel an individual to have a vaccine that won't benefit them individually. Which is what this is about:
A principle that was mentioned was that a person should be treated/vaccinated/whatever only if it was for their OWN benefit, not just for a general good.
Respect for autonomy is only one of the pillars of medical ethics (there are 4). People can only be compelled to have a medical intervention against their wishes only under rare circumstances, but it does happen. For example, restraining and/or sedating a confused patient who is attacking people. You are violating that person's autonomy in order to protect others. 'For the greater good'.
The same applies to vaccines if you consider that unvaccinated people are potential vectors to infect others. They are (unwittingly) harming others. So the principle of autonomy can be broken in such an instance. Then there's the question of risk and proportionality.
TLDR: The principle of autonomy is not absolute.
Severe Covid is pretty rare in people under 40, and potentially the risks of vaccines exceed that –
Someone should have some data on that though shouldn't they?
- How any under 40s have died/become seriously ill/long Covid after having Covid
- How many under 40s have died/become seriously ill after Covid vaccine
People can only be compelled to have a medical intervention against their wishes only under rare circumstances, but it does happen.
But it's not happening as regards any of the vaccines we have available to help with this pandemic, is it. I seems that every other post in any of these threads needs to include the words... NO ONE IS MAKING YOU HAVE A COVID VACCINATION.
NO ONE IS MAKING YOU HAVE A COVID VACCINATION.
Yeah, but, I don't think people should have them anyway. I have chosen not to have one but they shouldn't choose to have one because ???? and I am going to go on a protest about it.
Maybe we should all start protesting about things nobody is making us do?
I have some quite strong feelings regarding olives
I don't like them because they taste of washing up liquid, and although nobody is making me eat them, I should still be able to publicly make my point, whatever it is. I'm sure there is one. Probably....
*wanders off to make some placards*
Join you outside the deli. We'll persuade some of those university types to not buy olives today. The cause is strong... shall we make some yellow cards to hand out?
.
*wanders off to make some placards*
This is where you've gone wrong in this pandemic.......business as you previously knew it might have been royally shafted but **** me I suspect you'd have knocked out an epic antivax placard.
I think what may be different now is that the Indian variant is more serious for younger people than previous variants?
Is it really? A higher proportion of people in hospital are younger but that's because there are far less older people gettimg severely ill.
Not read anything to suggest the Indian variant is any more dangerous once you get it, just that's it's more contagious
I have some quite strong feelings regarding olives
Sign me up! Bloody awful things.
Not read anything to suggest the Indian variant is any more dangerous once you get it, just that’s it’s more contagious
Seems that way, as regards hospitalisations and deaths in the UK so far (the picture from India is murkier). But, if we're going to let the virus take hold in the younger population, because the older are now protected from death or serious illness by vaccines, I'd like there to be more known about the morbidity risk for those still not vaccinated. This is for the other thread though... isn't it...
What am I putting on these yellow cards about olives? How many people choke to death on olive stones pits every year? Give me the worldwide figure to press home the scale of the risk...
Do you know that I'm actually quite tempted to knock up some placards which graphically express my dislike of olives.
Then we could all get together and infiltrate an anti-vax rally with violent denouncements of the devils green and black chug-nuts.
It's my right as a citizen of a free country. I could probably get Desmand Swayne to table an amendment in parliament proposing that every olive must be made into oil
What am I putting on these yellow cards about olives?
Theres surely got to be some links to terrorism and organised crime. We'll start with that.