[Closed] Anti-Semitism Vs Anti-Zionism

Apollo's bow you're dull, JHJ.

Not being funny but where's the point at which wilfully derailing threads to your own personal topic of choice stops being acceptable on here?

Also,

hels - Member

I decided against it as a general policy rule about not offending people on purpose

This policy of yours, it must be new? 😆

Oh and could you point out the facts/evidence. I seem to have missed them.

What is it you want the facts/evidence for?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism ]
Christian Zionism[/url]?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry ]Freemasonry[/url]?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible ]The Bible[/url]?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud ]The Talmud[/url]?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran ]The Quran[/url]?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang ]The Big Bang[/url]?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry ]Amino Acids as the basis of life[/url]?

Or [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Foreign_military_financing ]vast military funding of Israel[/url] and the subjugation of Palestinians

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Oh, look!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

Well, at least I'm not being labelled anti-semitic

😉

[url= http://paxonbothhouses.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/40-maps-that-explain-middle-east.html ]Interesting take on the entire region by map[/url]

Worth a read that, just to take in all the upheavals that have taken place in the region and note Israels expansion within Palestine. Whichever way you look at it the Palestinians have been dealt a bad hand, and this has been further exacerbated since the Arab spring with the internecine war within Islam, which under the old divide and rule maxime further strengthens Israels hand.

Israel who have a security agency, the Mossad, that make the CIA look like kindergarten kids when it comes to dirty tricks and I wouldn't bet against having stirred up the whole nest in Syria.

A pity it's come back to bite them in the bum with Iran on the ascendant now.

Whatever it's a mess and nothing good is going to continue to come from it for a long while yet.

@jive, Israel has national service in order to protect itself. Right from the formation of Israel when it was immediately invaded by Egypt, Jordan and Syria they have needed to defend themselves. Gaza was in Egypt and Jordan fought for the West Bank which they claimed was their territory, not a mention of any Palestinian rights to the land. The Israelis have signed numerous peace agreements, withdrawn unilaterally from Gaza in 2005 expelling Jewish settlers but Hamas do not want a negotiated settlement or a two state solution their written constitutional objective is the absolute destruction of Israel.

Why don't you post up some photos of the wall the Egyptians have on their border with Gaza and the 1000 meter zone they have cleared demolishing houses to prevent terrorist smuggling of weapons both into Gaza and into Egypt to attack them. Or the wall the Saudis are building to keep out ISIS, $400m they are spending on it complete with high tech surveillance. The walls have reduced terrorist attacks significantly, particularly suicide bombers, they are now virtually unheard of in Israel. The walls in the West Bank where built after the suicide bombers started their attacks.

Most of us here I think understand the difference between anti-semitism and being against the Israeli government policies. I certainly don't see everyone criticising Israel as being anti-semitic. However, very many people do not care to make that distinction and they incite general anti-Jewish behaviour under the cover of what they see as the injustice of the Palestinians. Far more Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims in recent conflicts than have done so at the hands of the Israelis.

JY I am pro-Israel and I feel no need to through any anti-Semitic labels at to those who citisise Israel as my arguments and rational and rock solid.

I think that there's a link between anti Zionism and anti-Semitism, I'm afraid. I can't see any other explanation for the bile that's often directed towards Israel. As Jambalaya says above, hardly anyone seems to criticise Arabs for killing each other in huge numbers. The Arabs are very fond of using the 'fellow muslims' and 'fellow arabs' cards when it suits, though.

@derek - those maps are often used to "explain" how Israel has encroached onto Palestinian lands but in fact most of the redrawing of the borders has come about after Israel has come under attacks from Jordan, Syria and Egypt, with the Israelis coming out victorious and creating buffer zones which have subsequently been retained after treaties where signed. As I posted above Gaza and West Bank where seen by Egypt and Jordan as belonging to them, no mention of Palestine.

It is also interesting that there are quoted as being 5 million Palestinian refugees as in 1948 only 700,000 where displaced. There seems to have been a lot of inflation and/or population growth.

You are quite right about Mossad being very very good at what they do. It thus makes no sense for them to support and environment which allows Islamic jihadism to flourish, its a very complicated region though so none of us can really be sure. The Israelis have peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt which have held for many years, they would like to see democracies on their borders and their neighbours developing their economies as this means people have less rational to fight. Assad has supported action against Israel and has supplied and funded Hamas so Israel will not be sad to see him distracted. Its also ironic that Assad was one of the few supporters Hamas had and yet they joined the fight against him and many 1000's of Palestinians have died in Aleppo as a result of Syrian government action. Iran's not in the ascendancy, Israel remains rightly concerned about them having a nuclear weapon as is the US and the West in general.

This series "War Next Door" is very good from the excellent vicenews. this piece tells how Israeli hospitals are treating SYrian fighters, it makes sense they are trying to win favour particularly with those who live near the border.

Is that the same Vice news that has James Murdoch (son of Rupert Murdoch and equally balls deep in the media game) on the board of directors?

those maps are often used to "explain" how Israel has encroached onto Palestinian lands

JY I am pro-Israel and I feel no need to through any anti-Semitic labels at to those who citisise Israel as my arguments and rational and rock solid.

@jambalaya I don't want to appear anti Israel, I'm not but pragmatically nor am I in favour of any nation state based on race or religion and I'm also impervious to 'spin' and their recent campaign to try to look more 'humane' when basically they aint.

Everything you say is correct and back in the days of the six day war and subsequent conflagrations they did enjoy the sympathy and support of most right thinking western folk, but those days are over and there have been some evil goings on since which is not particularly positive to even dwell on. I'm not trying to win any argument here, just stating the plain fact that any increase in anti semitism that may present itself to the world is entirely brought about by their recent actions, radical Islam aside.

And those walls they didn't keep out the zombies did they? Even Brad had to run for it. 😉

I have spent a fair bit of time in Israel as my wife is from there. As Lifer has already stated plenty of Israelis are dismayed by some of the actions that have been carried out in their name and of Netanyahu's reckless disregard for Palestinian lives.

I know moderate Israelis who find their government's actions abhorrent, but ultimately, the Israeli people voted in Nedanyahu's government, so there has to be some form of support from the general populous for those actions - it's not like his government is a step change in policy towards Palestine and it's people from the previous to the current government.

That said I also feel that the actions of others towards Israel is often glossed over. I was in Israel during the conflict in 2014. Staying in a city that was within range of Hamas rockets meant that when a siren went off I had to grab my 11 month year old daughter and run down the stairs whilst hearing the rockets being exploded over our heads. I'm not drawing any comparison between what I experienced and what was carried out in Gaza. But the fact that Israel has the capability to deal with most of these rockets does not detract from what they have been designed to do - kill as many Israelis as possible.

I can't imagine being in that situation, and for the average civilian it must be really tough. can you imagine what it would be like if you didn't have Iron Dome? i.e. what the general Palestinian population, the vast majority of whom have no reason to support the ongoing troubles?

The lack of proportionate response by Israel is what makes the situation so horrific. after those Israeli kids were abducted and killed, it's been shown that the Israel government knew within a day that they'd been killed, and where they were. and yet this was hidden, and gave pretense for a week of intrusive, abusive, illegal and immoral door to door, often in the middle of the night, raids on entirely innocent Palestinian homes.

whilst the rockets have been designed to do that we also cannot ignore how ineffective they are and two wrongs dont make a right

If someone throws a knife at me and misses I cannot collectively punish his entire village/family/region for weeks on end.

Its also worth noting that Israel will kill foreign nationals on foreign soil and this is nothing short of state sponsored terrorism. Imagine the west reaction if Iran was killing politicians abroad it did not like and treating a country like they do the Palestinians.

Its diplomatic hypocrisy as we let "our friends " behave like monsters and in violation of human rights and international law.

If someone throws a knife at me and misses I cannot collectively punish his entire village/family/region for weeks on end.

Shockingly bad analogy.

I know moderate Israelis who find their government's actions abhorrent, but ultimately, the Israeli people voted in Nedanyahu's government, so there has to be some form of support from the general populous for those actions - it's not like his government is a step change in policy towards Palestine and it's people from the previous to the current government.

True, unfortunately in Israel Netanyahu has a lot of support from the hard-line religious right wing. I am hopeful that in the upcoming elections that Livni and Herzog manage to stop him being successful in obtaining a fourth term. Only then can we hope for some changes in policy towards Palestine.

Should i have said they were blindfolded and the knife was not that sharp?

@hungry I think pretty much everyone knew the kids had been murdered immediately, the Israeli Government for the sake of the parents has to keep searching, they cannot be seen to stop until there is proof they are dead. I don't think there is anything else to read into it.

they did enjoy the sympathy and support of most right thinking western folk, but those days are over

JY Hamas fired 450 rockets at Israel from Jan to June 2014. You may say they are "not effective" but it's not for want to of trying. If you are an Israeli paying your taxes for defense you would have been asking your military why they were not responding. Hamas operates from the middle of a city and builds it's tunnels and weapons stores under homes and mosques. So they get bombed and bombed hard, that's what you do such a situation. Hamas provoked the conflict and invited the journalists into the hospitals (and pretty much nowhere else) so they could fill the Western news with pictures of dead and injured people in order to advance their cause. Just like Netanyahu said, "We use rockets to protect our people and Hamas use people to protect their rockets"

JY, remember all the non-sense about certain Sinn Fein members being politicians ?

The blockade from Egypt is far more significant to Gaza than the restricted travel allowed into Israel.

JY we all know if you stand opposite someone with a gun and keep trying to stab him in the eye eventually you are going to get shot dead.

The PLO signed an agreement to work towards a peace, Hamas rejected it the the right of Israel to exist and they got elected. They chose to follow this path. There was another option.

jambalaya - Member

JY we all know if you stand opposite someone with a gun and keep trying to stab him in the eye eventually you are going to get shot dead.

Even if you're trying to stab them with a drinking straw, and they're wearing goggles. And then they shoot your neighbours too just to be sure.

Hamas fired 450 rockets at Israel from Jan to June 2014. You may say they are "not effective"* but it's not for want to of trying

OOPs nearly fell into your trap of debating Hamas on a topic about Israel.
Not one comment in your reply related to any claims [ FACTS] I made about israel NOT ONE you cannot even manage to debate it can you 🙄

EDIT: you need to be standing in his garden parked in your tank

Again no mention of Israel and you need to understand why he is trying to stab you rather than just blame them for it. Nothing Israel will do is reducing the causes NOTHING

* when you use "" its a tacit admission of your weakness

Still using the bullcrap 'IDF Blog' barchart with no citations I see Jambalaya. Why?

There are reports of 181 rockets in that time, with locations and who (if anyone - certainly not all Hamas) claimed them. Why do you keep plugging the lie?

600 miles long, $400m dollars. The Saudis know how to build a wall.

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Lifer does it really matter if the number is 181 (first time I have seen that number - you say "reports"), 250 or 450 ? The Israelis would be the most accurate source of numbers it seems to me, they have the radar tracking.

Wishful thinking on your behalf on the weakness / quotes link JY. The discussion drifted off as usual.

On topic. How about the Asian lad in Tower Hamlets who asked a journalist taking photos of his pro-Palestine banner and flag, "are you Jewish" ? A very significant number of people believe it's justified to act in an anti-semitic way because they disagree with Israels stance. Those who promote an anti-Israel stance, like George Galloway, know exactly what they are doing and the anti-Semitic reaction it will generate in the majority of their target audience, whatever he may try and claim otherwise.

I was in Paris at the weekend, armed soldiers outside Jewish schools and businesses. Not one or two either, many. We have police stationed now outside Synagogues in the UK. They are not there because people are making a rational link between Israel and the Jewish community, they are there due to irrational hatred. We don't have police outside Mosques as we can differentiate between ISIS and Muslims generally.

Wishful thinking on your behalf on the weakness / quotes link JY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

FWIW In July Israel fired 1,122 rockets and killed 7,800
Now that is an effective rocket more kills than rockets the very least anyone would expect an way more than NONE

jambalaya - Member
Lifer does it really matter if the number is 181 (first time I have seen that number - you say "reports"), 250 or 450 ?

i) No it's not, it's exactly the same number I quoted against your bar graph one in the massive thread from when operation concrete * or titanium * or whatever snappy name they used.

ii) Yes, it matters.

OH come on what do facts matter in a debate with Jam [s] on Israel[/s]

i don't like Isreal or the Zionists and as such will not purchase anything from Isreal (paprikas, tomatoes, products that the firm the GF works for imports, etc) but i have nothing personal against jews other than they believe in a god (of sorts) and as such think they are a bit retarded (i see christians and muslims and wotnots in a similar light).

once went out with a jeewish girl in north london. was a fun time. she was dirty as hell, loved taking drugs and partying and i made the most of that fact (no, it wasn't amy).

Junkyard says:

FWIW In July Israel fired 1,122 rockets and killed 7,800

It seems you're not very good at reading tables. If you're taking those numbers from your own link you'll find that its was the Hamas that fired [b]2,874[/b] rockets in July, with 1,122 deaths and 7,800 [i]injured[/i] in the retaliatory fire.

As to whether Hamas rockets are [i]effective[/i].. Are suicide belts and bombs in rucksacks carried onto public transportation less effective at killing because intelligence has thwarted terrorist attempts? Resources spent has saved lives. If those resources weren't spent, people would die. In Israel, resources spent on Iron Dome has saved lives.It doesn't make the threat any less effective..If a rocket got through there would be many deaths.

For those of you who define yourself as anti-Zionist. what exactly are you anti? - Anti settlement expansion? - Most secular jewish Israelis are.. Anti Israel post 67 borders, post 48 borders or anti the establishment of a jewish state at all in that area? If you think 'the Jews should get out of Palestine', then you probably are an anti semite, but don't worry - like many others, you can call yourself an anti zionist go on to rationalize the ineffectiveness of 100kg warheads, (mis)quote war stats and even feel good about throwing out your soda stream.

If you think 'the Jews should get out of Palestine', then you probably are an anti semite

Yes, that kind of thing gets written all the time in these debates. I've lost count of the amount of times STWers have said "Israel should get out of Palestine". Hell, I've probably said it myself lots of times, but gave up as it gets lost in the anti-semitic fog of these debates.

Whereas, those who criticise the actions of the Israeli government are never labelled anti-semites, as a lazy shortcut instead of say, trying to get them to shut up with facts and reason. No sirree, that kind of thing never happens.

An interesting perspective from Bassem Eid, a Palestinian, founder and former director of the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG).

"In Gaza, our schools are controlled by Muslim fanatics who indoctrinate our children, and Hamas uses our civilians as human shields in a losing battle against Israel. Hamas maintains power through violence, and it ensures that money is spent on its arsenal rather than on making the Palestinians’ lives better. While President Abbas is quick to denounce Israel whenever it attacks Hamas, he has absolutely no ability to stop Hamas from provoking Israel.

"Despite what we tell ourselves, Israel is here to stay. What’s more, it has a right to exist. It is the nation of the Jews but also a nation for Israeli Arabs who have better lives than Arabs anywhere in Arab countries. We must accept these facts and move on. The antisemitism promoted by Hamas, Fatah, and the BDS movement is not the answer for us Palestinians.

"The answer is to live in peace and democracy, side by side with Israel. We missed many opportunities to do that. We missed it in 1947 when Arab regimes encouraged us to refuse the UN partition plan. We missed it between 1948 and 1967 when we refused to create a state next to Israel. We missed it again every time after that when we refused a two-state solution presented to us.
Yet we know that Israelis want to live in peace, and that the vast majority of Israelis are friendly and neighborly. We know that Palestinian violence results in Israelis being discouraged about peace and electing ever more right-wing governments. We know that Egypt was able to secure a very favorable peace deal with Israel because Egypt agreed to accept Israel and to give up on violence. We know that the soft approach works with Israel, and yet we continue to use violence and extremist rhetoric."

full link here: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/we-palestinians-hold-the-key-to-a-better-future/

As for the rockets being "ineffective" - a quick glance at the Iron Dome stats info:

"During the 50 days of the conflict where 4,594 rockets and mortars were fired at Israeli targets, Iron Dome systems intercepted 735 projectiles that it determined were threatening, achieving an intercept success rate of 90 percent."

I very much doubt 735 rockets/mortars landing in anyone's neighborhood would label them ineffective. Furthermore that the rockets can be so indiscriminate doesn't rule out the possibility of them landing in Gaza causing damage, injuries etc which iirc also happened.