[Closed] Anti-Semitism Vs Anti-Zionism

(even when I pointed out the Israeli State is Anti-Semetic as Palestinians are Semites too).

This doesn't help in the slightest. As normally used in English, "anti-semitic" refers to a hatred of [b]Jews[/b]. You know that, we all know that. The idea that Israeli policy is anti-semitic because they are (for various reasons) ghastly to arabs is just tiresome and best left to the full-on jew-haters to trot out.

Obviously one [i]should[/i] as a matter of logic be able to distinguish between Jews (as a widely distributed religious, cultural, ethnic or whatnot group who decent people see as very much a part of British society) and Israel (as a nation state) but this is tricky politically and emotionally and will always be tricky, certainly until European and American Jews have completely forgotten about the Holocaust and why there is an Israel.

Well, we should never want to forget about the Holocaust but critising current Israeli policy is something far, far different & not linked as far as I can see.

Perhaps, maybe, this is just not a things that should be opined on twitter where it is hardly the forum for a nuanced discussion of the matters at hand. hardly possible to do this in posts of fewer than 140 characters. keep twitter to posts about what you've just had for dinner, your excitement or upset at a current sports result. avoid discussing the arab - israeli peace process or the events leading up the current dischord in the ME. Just a thought like.

I was going to say I agree with you muddydwarf but I also agree with jeffc. It is bad enough trying to sensibly discuss issues on here but twitter descends into abusive slagging matches in nano seconds.

[i]Personally[/i] for what it is worth, I tend with the benefit of a lot of hindsight, privilege and detachment to see Zionism as a slightly wearying "ism" that was anachronistic well before 1947. But that it carved an exception for itself is not surprising unless we ignore the Holocaust (pro tip: do not ignore Holocaust)

As Israel's Jewish population is there now, isn't going to move, can still best its neighbours militarily and understandably wants to sit behind defensible borders rather than its 1947 borders, yelling at them is basically unproductive as an activity for the secular left. Ensuring that non-Israeli Jews living in our countries are comfortable, are not threatened and are integrated as much as they are content to be is a good thing in and of itself. But it has the minor side benefit that if no more non-Israeli Jews, anywhere, are ever again rendered so uncomfortable where they live that they want to live in Israel then that is a good thing from the point of view of conflict in the Israel/Palestine area generally.

Well, we should never want to forget about the Holocaust but critising current Israeli policy is something far, far different & not linked as far as I can see.

Realistically, of course they're linked. Israel would have struggled to get off the ground without the population displacements created by the Holocaust. And the basic raison d'etre of the Israeli state is the protection of the Jewish people within its borders. Voices from the continent that has done the most historically to exterminate Jews, shouting "you're protecting the Jews in an unnecessarily aggressive way" are not automatically seen as remotely friendly or helpful.

(I'm not getting at you (or not trying to), and I haven't a lot of patience with the ugliness of a lot of Israeli behaviour. It just seems worthwhile bringing as much understanding as possible to why you get shouted down)

Anti-zionism isn't anti-semitic, many orthodox hasidic jews are anti-zionist and (although this might change) do not do national service in the IDF. Zionism, like any racist ideology, will always be troublesome.

Also, jeffc speaks sense. For that reason I'm calling time on my remarks on the subject. 🙂

It was something said on the George Galloway thread that sparked of my memory, so thought I'd open this rather than derail that thread.
For what its worth I dislike Galloway intensely, but I do find the Zionists attempts at silencing him with accusations of racism worrying & very undemocratic.
There are many people of Jewish faith who oppose Zionism so conflating the two is in my mind a deliberate attempt at smearing shite on people.

The anti-semite charge is routinely deployed in the media whenever an Israeli policy is criticised. It is the way the Zionists see of shutting down dissent and discussion. It is also a tacit admission that they are wrong on whatever issue is being discussed at the time.

What Sandwich said

The irony of it is that the zionists almost casual over-use of the word anti-semite, to shut down pretty much any debate or criticism, cheapens it immeasurably, and that in itself is insulting to the victims of the holocaust

The State of Israel and IDF has for many decades relied on the Holocaust as a device for countering criticism of their genocide of Palestinian people. They are very happy, I'm sure, that many will not be critical of their horrendous policies of murder and torture for fear of being labeled anti-Semite.

BigDummy - wow, balanced, clearly well informed and nuanced commentry. Seriously hats off to the insight. It's a rare thing in these ultra polarised times.

In my experience, anti-zionism has turned into textbook Jew hatred over the last five years or so.

Steven Sizer is a case in point. He is a C of E vicar who is vociferously anti-Israel, but continually denies being an anti-semite. So I took a look at his Facebook page, and his mix of over 2,000 friends is interesting to say the least: an eclectic combination of Holocaust deniers, Jews-control-the-world conspirators, and Hamas apologists.

It's interesting reading Jon Ronson's "Them" - he talks about extremism, and also meets several times with the ADL. Their idea is that people who are anti-Semitic often hide it by using code-words like "international financiers" when they mean "Jews". It all get a bit bizarre.

This doesn't help in the slightest.

On the contrary I think it's very useful to remind people that Palestinians are Semites. It helps to highlight the absurdity of the Zionist claim that they are entitled to land because of where their ancestors lived several thousands of years ago.

Palestinians are simply Semites/Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam and never left the region. Most Zionists in contrast are much less Semitic than the Palestinians having mixed genetically with Europeans. If one of your grandparents was a Jew, or the grandparent of your husband/wife was a Jew, then you are entitled to Israeli nationality. It doesn't make you much of a Semite though.

Having said that many Zionists challenge the racial/semitic purity of Palestinians, as you would expect from racists.

Ultimately all this racial labeling is nonsense of course, but such is the racist character of Zionism.

Polite, considered responses on a difficult subject. This thread should be closed before it descends!

A problem I see in France is that Jews are seen as untouchable. Anyone critical of them is immediately branded an anti-Semite (which is illegal) but Jews are free to criticise any other religion or group thanks to secular free speech laws.

Last year a boy in my son's class in a public Lycée got an "anti-Semite" mention in his school record because he said he enjoyed Dieudonné sketches, without any reference to which sketches the boy liked.

This one for example which even my habitual sparing partner on "le voile" might enjoy. Dieudonné takes the Micky out of French institutions, Christians, atheists, Muslims, Africans, boat people and of course, in a very mild manner, Jews. I find it every bit as funny as Dave Allen at his best and not in the least shocking.

Edit because I got the wrong vid

What worries me is the fear of being able to criticise and then being classed as racist.

At the recent Holocaust memorial all I could think about was the 2,000 civilians (including 500 children) killed by the IDF last year.

In reply to BigDummy
To me,it isn't a case of Israel wanting to sit behind it's borders and being left alone. It is it's seemingly ongoing mandate to extend those borders at will and destabilise anybody it sees fit. The safety argument is in my opinion,now hollow.I define that as an especially zionist approach and mindset. We are now at the stage where it is a tragedy that many people in it's border through no fault of there own are treated in a way that is increasingly similar to 1930's Germany.

I'm waiting for a post involving pyramids and lizards....

It's obvious to anyone with a brain that anti-zionist and anti-semetic are two different things. The issue is that people with brains also know to keep away from internet arguments on the subject, leaving the idiots to argue about it.

No pyramids and lizards I'm afraid, but the fact that self proclaimed Christians such as David Cameron and Boris Johnson are also self proclaimed Zionists puts paid to claims of Anti-Semitism.

It's also a bit weird: how can you be both Christian and Zionist?

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism ]Christian zionism for Jive[/url]

What worries me is the fear of being able to criticise and then being classed as racist.

Why let it worry you Hora?, those around you that you trust and those who know you and your character are all you have to worry about - if their opinion of you is valid then say what you consider to be true to your understanding.

I'm often to be found muttering under my breath in the supermarket aisles as i check the provenance of fruit and veg (and all other goods) - i refuse to buy Israeli produce of any kind unless i know the company involved has a valid ethical policy/statement regarding the Issues.

It may seem (to some) to be trite doing the above.

Christian zionism for Jive

Thank you kindly...

a quick scan suggests we are governed by religious nutters!!

I find a lot of people seem to project their dislike of the actions of past and present Israeli governments onto the whole Israeli population.

Which, as pointed out above, is nonsense.

badnewz - Member
In my experience, anti-zionism has turned into textbook Jew hatred over the last five years or so.

As anti semites increasingly self identify as such, the term inevitably gains unwanted baggage.

There's an awful lot of handwringing about 'Israel' without any real specific political discussion, which is a open door to ignorance and confusion between Judaism, Israel, it's current population and the actions of it's leaders.

Thank you kindly...

a quick scan suggests we are governed by religious nutters!!

Dubya was a big believer in the Rapture.

It's normal for racists to claim to be the victims of racism. The BNP does it all the time.

I find a lot of people seem to project their dislike of the actions of past and present [u]Israeli[/u] governments onto the whole [u]Israeli[/u] population.

You can replace the underlined words with:

British/British
French/French
German/German
American/American

etc. for many nations.

I think you can safely add Blair to Dubya (Bush) as a zionist Christian. See the last thread I started.

Funnily enough, Blair, Bush and even Rupert Murdoch are all Papal Knights of Malta, like Jimmy Savile

[img] http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=9679&d=1314961127 [/img]

How odd...

That 'international financier' stuff is interesting. When people don't identify their cultural origins they are often claimed by journalists as being brought up in 'north London', 'a liberal upbringing' or 'grandparent was a holocaust survivor'. The Guardian (a paper I have read for 40 years) does it all the time, it bores the **** out of me.

Funnily enough, Blair, Bush and even Rupert Murdoch are all Papal Knights of Malta, like Jimmy Savile

here we go...

How odd...

Indeed, specially as none are Maltese. Very odd.

[img] ?1323989407[/img]

So, are Israelis who have a dislike of the Zionist side of Israeli politics/actions anti-Semitic?

Israeli foreign 'policy' is pretty abhorrent IMO. Admittedly I can fully understand how it's ended up where it has given the holocaust and the lasting effect that's had on many but that doesn't justify it.

Speaking as someone who would qualify for Israeli nationality...

It goes far beyond the holocaust, 1000 years of pogroms against the Jews in Europe.

I think the point still stands.

Sure, but I think concentrating on the holocaust is convenient for other countries. Zionism started gaining political momentum in the 19th century but has roots a lot earlier and this should not be overlooked especially in the context of the 'other' du jour in Europe today.

So, are Israelis who have a dislike of the Zionist side of Israeli politics/actions anti-Semitic?

No the Zionists have got round that little problem by describing them as "self-haters". Which imo is even more insulting than calling them anti-Semitic.

Can you imagine if those white South Africans who so tirelessly fought against the Apartheid regime had been called "self-haters" ?

Only zionists get away with that sort of bollocks.

While we're discussing the holocaust...

I got banned the last time I mentioned this, but it is an extremely significant chunk of history, which needs exposing...

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar ]Prescott Bush, Grandfather of George W & Jeb Bush[/url], along with [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/books/review/the-brothers-by-stephen-kinzer.html?pagewanted=all ]Allen Dulles [/url](wartime head of US intelligence (OSS) in Switzerland and later head of CIA) heavily funded the Nazis prior to and to some extent during World War 2, [url= http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/54/54_14-18.pdf ]then laundered funds[/url]

Of course, the myriad other nasty business that occurred under Dulles' directorship of the CIA such as [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra ]MK-Ultra[/url] (employing Nazi scientists recruited during [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip ]Operation Paperclip[/url]) and the CIA/MI6 [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat ]1953 coup of Iran[/url] that still has knock on effects to world history are veering off topic a bit, but worth bearing in mind.

Given my previous ban, I feel I should clarify~for the record, I find the holocaust utterly horrific and despicable~ anyone who knowingly aided such actions should be brought to justice.

Back when I had the misfortune to spend most of my time in academia, I shared an office with a colleague who developed something of a paranoia about "Ze Zionists". He then started plastering posters for Hamas on the office door. Last time I heard about him he was oscillating between Pro-Palestine marches and regular nervous breakdowns.

American corporate involvement in Nazi Germany is hardly covered up FFS.

Back when I had the misfortune to spend most of my time in academia, I shared an office with a colleague who developed something of a paranoia about "Ze Zionists". He then started plastering posters for Hamas on the office door. Last time I heard about him he was oscillating between Pro-Palestine marches and regular nervous breakdowns.

I assume he said "Ze Zionists" because he was foreign? You can't trust these foreigners you know.

Thanks for sharing your past office arrangements btw, I now feel strangely more pro-zionist.

As an aside - in Jerusalem last year all the tourist t-shirt shops were selling IDF t-shirts, with the writing in English and Hebrew. I was very tempted to buy one and wear it around work, just to see what made-up reason somebody would come up with for why I couldn't wear it.

(I decided against it as a general policy rule about not offending people on purpose, no matter how much I think they have no cogent reason to be offended. I fear I am only JUST getting away with my St Pauli hoodie - due to their association with Celtic Football Club)

Its a lefty quandary !

Israeli foreign 'policy' is pretty abhorrent IMO. Admittedly I can fully understand how it's ended up where it has given the holocaust and the lasting effect that's had on many

Israel seems to be taking its Jewish-historical experiences out on the people of Palestine. I can only understand it in the same way I understand how somebody who is abused goes on to be an abuser themselves. As it is, the State of Israel appears to have learned absolutely nothing positive (in terms of diplomacy) from the deaths of their ancestors. Instead, they starve Palestinians, deny them water and electricity, take their land by force, bomb residential targets with white phosphorus and shoot children for fun. They've had their head in the sand for decades and, rather than develop into a peaceful people, have grown into a violent, frightened organisation with a victim complex.

Three_Fish

Israel seems to be taking its Jewish-historical experiences out on the people of Palestine. I can only understand it in the same way I understand how somebody who is abused goes on to be an abuser themselves. As it is, the State of Israel appears to have learned absolutely nothing positive (in terms of diplomacy) from the deaths of their ancestors. Instead, they starve Palestinians, deny them water and electricity, take their land by force, bomb residential targets with white phosphorus and shoot children for fun. They've had their head in the sand for decades and, rather than develop into a peaceful people, have grown into a violent, frightened organisation with a victim complex.

Well said.

Too many people on here have a simplistic idea of victims vs victimizers.
Israel's response has gone over the top, sure, but the idea that the Palestinians are a peaceful people is equally laughable.
The political left is obsessed on this issue, even though most people in the UK have no direct experience of living in the middle-east. It is shifting British Jews to the right, making them more concerned about further immigration from Muslim countries, which I think is a long overdue move.

So I say I don't like something that a Christian group published or said I am now anti-Christian?

This thread is going nowhere, Exit Badnewz (pursued by a Zionist Bear).

badnewz - Member

Too many people on here have a [b]simplistic idea[/b] of victims vs victimizers.
Israel's response has gone over the top, sure, but the idea that the Palestinians are a peaceful people is equally laughable.
The political left is obsessed on this issue, even though most people in the UK have no direct experience of living in the middle-east. It is shifting British Jews to the right, making them more concerned about further immigration from Muslim countries, which I think is a long overdue move.

Oh teh ironing.

I was going to suggest that, I don't think most British folk are naturally anti semitic, certainly not since WW2 and the holocaust, but the way Israel acted in Gaza certainly provoked anti Israeli feeling, in fact the pathetic education of some kids is such they don't even know the two things go hand in hand, i.e. Jews live in Israel.

So being anti Israeli is not to my mind as anti semitic as the anti jewish immigrant period of say the late thirties and immediate post war period in some London regions.

Not withstanding of course the natural anti semitism that is prolific amongst our more radical islamic friends. I'm not sure why this suddenly is in the news, my twitter & Facebook feeds are full of it and an Obama Iran conspiracy (made the mistake of 'liking' Melanie Phillips with whom I'd had previous correspondence on a totally different subject, but she's in full cry supporting Israel at the moment.

I've spent time in Israel made friends know their sense of isolation and constant war and terrorist threat which has pretty much been going on since the countries inception, so it's difficult to be overly critical of their actions, but I do fear they are not really helping themselves in the current climate.

There are plenty of Israelis critical of their country's actions.

I recommend 'The Gatekeepers' documentary where six former heads of Shin Bet (the Israeli secret service) talk about the mistakes they feel have led the country to where it is now.

Mel Phillips seems to get more rabid in her zionism every day. I've stayed away from her site for a while but used to have some good debates on there, until she (or whoever was in charge of the site) started deleting any contrary views.

[url= http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/As-I-See-It-The-Obama-doctrine-says-Israels-enemy-is-my-friend-390215 ]Found it, it was on my phone on the way to work this morning...[/url]

I have spent a fair bit of time in Israel as my wife is from there. As Lifer has already stated plenty of Israelis are dismayed by some of the actions that have been carried out in their name and of Netanyahu's reckless disregard for Palestinian lives.

That said I also feel that the actions of others towards Israel is often glossed over. I was in Israel during the conflict in 2014. Staying in a city that was within range of Hamas rockets meant that when a siren went off I had to grab my 11 month year old daughter and run down the stairs whilst hearing the rockets being exploded over our heads. I'm not drawing any comparison between what I experienced and what was carried out in Gaza. But the fact that Israel has the capability to deal with most of these rockets does not detract from what they have been designed to do - kill as many Israelis as possible.

As Lifer has already stated plenty of Israelis are dismayed by some of the actions that have been carried out in their name and of Netanyahu's reckless disregard for Palestinian lives.

That said I also feel that the actions of others towards Israel is often glossed over.

Tell me, why do you think they are lobbing rockets at Israel?

dereknightrider - Member

Found it, it was on my phone on the way to work this morning...

Classic Mel. By which I mean horribly skewed by her hatred of Obama.

Since the election of Barack Obama, Phillips has accused him of "adopting the agenda of the Islamist" and of being "firmly in the Islamists camp".[40] Shortly after Obama's re-election for a second term, Phillips said that [b]"Four years ago, America put into the White House a sulky narcissist with an unbroken history of involvement in thuggish, corrupt, far-left, black power, Jew-bashing, west-hating politics."[/b] She warned that Obama would lead America into a "terrifying darkness". The Independent termed it "rather odd" and an "angry rant",[41] which "sparked debate on Twitter.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips#Barack_Obama ]Phillips on Obama[/url]

Woh! Just a tad to the right of centre, she wouldn't last long here would she? I'd better explain, I only got involved with her over some fear of swimming piece she wrote... Can't say I share many of her views.. 😆

Bigot of the year award from Stonewall - classic.

El-bent if you think Hamas only ever fire missiles in retaliation you need to read more.

El-bent if you think Hamas only ever fire missiles in retaliation you need to read more.

Since you already know what I'm getting at, perhaps I should just ask a straight question.

When did all this start, and why?

I find it [b]very[/b] confusing to understand the motive as to why the media and people in general focus on Israel but seem to have forgotten the in-excess of [b]half a million[/b] civilians killed by our armed forces in Iraq.

The main confusing thing here is that, not a single British or American civilian had been killed by an Iraqi.

War is not a simple thing and innocent people will always be killed but the fact of the matter is that Palestinians had killed Israelis, had voted into power a terrorist group and were mixing civilian areas with military targets.

If Wales were firing rockets at England I can guarantee you that no one would be arguing at military action.

^^^ if we were doing to wales what Israel is doing to Palestine plenty would be both arguing, manning barricades and be utterly ashamed to live in a country like that . Not in my name would we treat a people like that whose land we have stolen and whose people. Its a recipe for resentment
PS nice attempt at a diversion but we are discussing ISrael start a new thread on the unrelated issues [ please dont "explain" why it matters and its the same as I get the distraction thing]

When did all this start, and why?

Was it when Israel stole the land or the time after they stole the land when they stole some more or the time after the time after they stole some land where they stole some more land or perhaps etc

It is not correct to say that all the land was 'stolen'. Israel is not innocent but the Palestinians are not either.

There is alot of talking on the subject but little action. How many people who argue strongly on this subject have even been to the area and seen for themselves?

The media feed a very biased story.

PS nice attempt at a diversion but we are discussing ISrael start a new thread on the unrelated issues [ please dont "explain" why it matters and its the same as I get the distraction thing]

Focusing on one conflict but tactfully forgetting our own far worse recent crimes is part of the reason that it [i]can[/i] be seen as anti-Semitic.

EDIT :AH the anti -semitic tag

Yes that its If i wont be distracted and discuss something else I must be a racist 🙄 ..FFS
You do know the Palestinians are Semites dont you?
I think the best we could do is debate how illegitimate Israel is tbh

I dont think the worlds Jews would let the Arabs do this to them what they did to Palestine and if they did they would fight back and still be fighting back generations later....al nations would.

The media feed a very biased story.

How come the media seem to forget that Egypt block their boarder access for supplies to the Palestinians too? Where is the public outcry about that?

The truth is that the Arab world in general also don't want to help them either.

Again more reasons why focusing on Israel as the bad guy [i]can[/i] be seen as anti-Semitic.

[i]You do know the Palestinians are Semites dont you?[/i]

Yes I am aware of this but as has been pointed out by others in this thread, in this country it is usually understood to be anti-jew.

This thread is not about who is right or wrong but why being anti-Isreal can be seen as anti-Semitic.

As I pointed out on page one, if you're unable to win the argument throw in the anti-semitic charge. Being ant-Zionist is not anti-semitic, it's the boy crying WOLF and the rest of the world will eventually ignore the cry.

Or, it's like people shouting "you don't support our troops" if you criticise the war.

I'm not saying if you criticize Israel you are automatically anti-Semitic but as a group if large numbers of people are focusing on the Israel and don't criticize other equally or worse issues then it can appear that way or you have been whipped into a emotional frenzy by the biased media coverage.

People single out Israel for criticism because they claim to share our values. If they want to admit that they're a bunch of murderous thugs like most of their neighbours, well, hey ho, I guess we can change the way we view them.

Or, it's like people shouting "you don't support our troops" if you criticise the war.

Being anti - zionist is seen as being anti semitic as the pro Israel lobby know their argument is so weak they just hurl it as an insult [ with the odd change of subject attempt of course] rather than defend what Israel does as even they know what it does is indefensible. Basically they would rather talk about anything [ media, our troops] but the actual issue as you so "skilfully" demonstrate.

if they get more grief [ and I dont think they do] it is for the reason DrJ mentions. they want to be Western and they make Putin look good.

but as a group if large numbers of people are focusing on the Israel and don't criticize other equally or worse issues then it can appear that way or you have been whipped into a emotional frenzy by the biased media coverage.

If people want to focus on the issue of the State of Israel's war crimes against the people of Palestine, then let them do that. It sounds more like you want to move discussion away from that. There are countless subjects which affect many people more personally, for example, but the level and type of aggression from the SofI is, in many people's view, entirely pertinent in geo-political conversation. If our (whoever we are) Governments support or oppose this behaviour, then it certainly makes it relevant to our own political choices, activism and voting.

This was heading to be one of the most balanced and respectful threads I have read in here.

There is a lot of cases where any criticism of Israel or Jewish people is rebuked with an Anti Semitic label, the more people do that the harder the real conversations become. It really doesn't matter who or why or where the last rocket/missile/air strike came from if you can't discuss the real issues without being labelled a racist there is a deeper problem.

While we should also never forget what happened 70 years ago people also need to learn and move on from it.

One of the main problems seems to be the indoctrination by the state education system of Israeli youth into military culture:

(The whole clip is worth watching, but I've made is easy by starting at the relevant point)

Given the [url= https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf ]vast amount of military aid[/url] supplied by the USA (even when their own government was shutdown in 2013 over financial issues and Detroit and other towns are having their water supplies cut off) it's almost as if they are attempting to create a nation of trained soldiers, in preparation for expanding their territory in the area.

Religious nutters alert!!

Funnily enough, Blair, Bush and even Rupert Murdoch are all Papal Knights of Malta, like Jimmy Savile

Sooo... a little research suggests that [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Malta_%28disambiguation%29 ]Knights of Malta[/url] are also a high level degree on the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rite ]York Rite[/url] of Freemasonry:

[img] [/img]

Freemasonry is said to be based on the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar ]Knights Templar[/url], who had their headquarters in Jerusalem in the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Temple#Freemasonry ]Temple of Solomon[/url], on [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount ]Temple Mount[/url]

Some say that that one of the aims of Freemasonry is to destroy the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Islam_and_Freemasonry ]Al-Aqsa Mosque in order to rebuild the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem[/url]

Does that mean that Freemasons are also Zionists?

[b]it's almost as if[/b] they are attempting

a little research [b]suggests[/b]...

Freemasonry [b]is said to be[/b] based...

[b]Some say that[/b] that one of the aims...

[b]Does that mean[/b] that...

Same old, same old.
🙄

Some say that conspiracy theorists have serious mental and or emotional issues.

A little research suggests that might not be far from the truth and that conspiracy theorism is based on an inverted inferiority complex and feelings of powerlessness and the resulting need to appear superior or more knowledgeable than others.

It is said that conspiracy theorists actually have less empathy for their fellow man than others and don't really care about 'the plight' of those suffering but more about how they will be perceived.

Does that mean that conspiracy theorists are all bad? Some say that it does.

No conspiracy theory there... just discussion of some facts that are not generally aired

If you want same OLD same OLD, there's the conspiracy theory offered by the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Quran.

Or a bit more up to date, you could include the Big Bang and amino acids being the basis of life...

I'm trying to open up the discussion~ unless of course you have an interest in closing the discussion...

Yes, that's right. As I said above, a little way back, I have Jewish ancestry (and Catholic too) so I'm obviously part of the big plot.

Oh and could you point out the facts/evidence. I seem to have missed them.