[Closed] Anti Muslim sentiment accusations

Can you give me an example of this dictatorial rhetoric of which you speak, please?

To be clear not had one for a very long time and they have occasionally discussed issues with me so just a joke.

Religion is a political position, it's a view point, an opinion - nothing more, it's not special and has (or should have) no special rights. The religious seem to feel that they have some special place in the world that the rules don't apply to them, that they report to a higher authority, that "only god can judge me" - Scary, self centred and mental.

If the media pick up on this and they look as mad as they are, fair enough.

You are not allowed to publish e-mails from the mods are you

Depends, I can't speak for others but personally I would try not to send anything via email that I wouldn't want escaping into the public domain. Any veiled secrecy is probably just that we'd rather avoid a long and protracted 'discussion' with people who'd argue that milk is purple.

Which reminds me, I owe you an email.

So just to be clear: this is a thread started by a pseudonymous person to discuss vague complaints of anonymous persons about unspecified persons' unspecified allegations about unnamed schools being tainted by unevidenced bias? Have I got that right?

So just to be clear: this is a thread started by a pseudonymous person to discuss vague complaints of anonymous persons about unspecified persons' unspecified allegations about unnamed schools being tainted by unevidenced bias? Have I got that right?

What's your point caller?

Milk is petrol and looks like a tree.

As any fule kno.

So just to be clear: this is a thread started by a pseudonymous person to discuss vague complaints of anonymous persons about unspecified persons' unspecified allegations about unnamed schools being tainted by unevidenced bias? Have I got that right?

Not at all. Couldn't be more wrong.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27257077 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27257077[/url]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27290877 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27290877[/url]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10806862/City-fights-new-Trojan-Horse-Islamic-schools-plot.html ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10806862/City-fights-new-Trojan-Horse-Islamic-schools-plot.html[/url]

Do you believe there is false reporting and possibly a deliberate attempt to bolster anti Muslim sentiment from within the government as suggested?

In answer to this - no I think that's highly unlikely. There are many things you can accuse the current government of but I really don't think this is one of them.

False reporting - almost certainly, but that doesn't mean the 'plots' didn't happen.

[img] [/img]

grum - they go to that school as it is the village school. It is the one they can walk to, and have no stupid religious criteria for getting in.

And while I am happy that your opinion is different to mine, and you are quite at liberty to say so, just dismissing my opinion as bullshit doesn't exactly make me warm to your counter argument. An inability to consider or deal with others point of view is a problem across all manner of religious, cultural and political issues.

And I think your comment rather answered Cougars later point. I've said it before on here that the level of intolerance for religion on this forum is surprisingly "forthright". I'm not religious, I believe that extreme religious views are as dangerous as any other form of extreme views, but I fail to see how otherwise normally broadminded members of the forum can be so blinkered on this one topic.

I've said it before on here that the level of intolerance for religion on this forum is surprisingly "forthright"

Maybe some people feel quite strongly that religion isn't a good thing?

I think the religion haters like to overstate the risks and dangers of those they oppose, just as much as extremists in many religions.

OK, if you want me to give a more measured response...

Which religion haters? The ones on this thread? Are you genuinely suggesting that the views expressed on this thread are similar to those of religious extremists? You know, the ones who murder people and blow things up. Really?

I was brought up religious and there are plenty of positive things about religion (social responsibility/morality/anti-materialism, self-reflection, etc). However, none of those things need to be exclusive to religion - and I think it's damaging for religion to try and claim some kind of monopoly over them (which it frequently does).

Sorry grum, but that's bullshit 😆

You make a very valid point there, and a lot of moderates in many religions will agree that it doesn't matter where you get those beneficial attitudes from, so long as you have them and display them.

As always though, it's the extremists of all flavours who get the attention, not the sensible moderates.

not the sensible moderates.

I think thats a bit of an oxymoron however where are these "moderates" ? where is their sense of responsibility when it comes to those who (allegedly) distort their beliefs? Why are they nor vocal in their condemnation?
The fact of the matter is it is the extremists who are often simply the strictest adherents to the religion itself.

Can you give me an example of this dictatorial rhetoric of which you speak, please?

Have I got that right?

I fail to see how otherwise normally broadminded members of the forum can be so blinkered on this one topic.

You called folk whose opinion you disagree with dangerous, extremists and blinkered. Seems we all get worked up on this issue.

Personally the reason for me is that for centuries, and still today in some places, you can be killed for just denying the existence of a god. i find it hard to tolerate such an extreme position, I find it hard to tolerate being forced to engage in their act of worship at school, and I find it hard to tolerate paying for them to make more of their kind via , what i would term , indoctrination. I find it hard that my kids have to endure this as well. One day humanity will view religion in the same way we view possession as a suitable explanation for mental illness or the flat earth or any other variety of anachronistic superstitious intepretations of reality that have no basis in fact

If they just sat at home or their places of worship and practiced and left me alone I would not care. Not only do they want to live by their rules they think I should as well - see gay marriage for a recent example

* Intentional irony please do not take it seriously

you can be killed for just denying the existence of a god. i find it hard to tolerate such an extreme position

And its worse than that! The UN is again actually debating a blasphemy law.

The UN is again actually debating a blasphemy law.

Jesus, Really. God, what next!

I personally agree with everything Junkyard is saying (among others) - Religion in education has only one place - History.

Religious beliefs are like penises - It's fine to have one, just don't ram it down my throat or the throat of a child who knows no better!

And I think your comment rather answered Cougars later point. I've said it before on here that the level of intolerance for religion on this forum is surprisingly "forthright"

Except, it doesn't, or rather if it does then I misinterpreted the original statement I replied to; to wit, "STW can be a truly scary place sometimes. The dictatorial anti religious rhetoric is quite disturbing."

I took the "dictatorial" comment to imply that this is some sort of internal policy, that we're religiously intolerant in our approach to forum moderation. I'd truly hope that no-one actually believes that; as demonstrated time and again on here, people are free to express their beliefs, religious or otherwise, without censorship (unless that belief involves questioning another member's parentage). If you couldn't then we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

I think my own personal views are fairly well documented, and could from a certain point of view be described as "anti-religious rhetoric" I guess. But you're not suggesting that just because it says "Moderator" next to my name I'm suddenly no longer allowed to have a viewpoint or take part in a debate? Are you?

So that just leaves us with the opinions of those who use the forum. I'm not sure what the alternative to allowing people to be openly anti-religious would be. If you want to hide behind censorship rather than stand up for your corner then I suppose we could just start deleting any comments which paint religion in a negative light? Though of course for balance we'd also have to delete those that talk positively about it, otherwise we'll be taking sides and be accused of bias.

Is that the sort of forum you'd prefer? I'm not convinced that it's a place I'd want to hang out in.

The UN is again actually debating a blasphemy law.

and you would lose as god is on their side now die infidel scum

PS Jesus loves you

level of intolerance for religion on this forum is surprisingly "forthright"

And long may it continue.

I've said it before on here that the level of intolerance for religion on this forum is surprisingly "forthright"

Besides most atheists couldn't give a fig what you believe aslong is it doesn't affect none (or different) believers.

There is an awful lot of ignorance on this thread - together with a lot of prejudice, intellectual conceit and I can only imagine a significant amount of hypocrisy.

Disappointing really...

Criticising religious beliefs is not ignorance, intolerance or hypocritical.

Oh well, I suppose I ought:

There's no such thing as a "god" - that's just primitive superstition.

Religion is just gibberish about nothing.

Believing in a "god" of some sort and being in a religion often makes some people happy and other people miserable but it doesn't prove anything or present any evidence to support the various superstitions on offer.

That's about it.

Next.

konabunny - Member
So just to be clear: this is a thread started by a pseudonymous person to discuss vague complaints of anonymous persons about unspecified persons' unspecified allegations about unnamed schools being tainted by unevidenced bias? Have I got that right?

It was God acting in a mysterious way!

It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key.

@Cougar - I wasn't referring to STW (as an organisation) as being scary or dictatorial, it was in reference to the posts of others who where posting things like all religious teaching in schools should be banned, all schools (inc private ones) should follow a specific curriculum (with the inference that it had no religious element) - I felt these posts/opinions where dictatorial removing the freedom of choice form others.

Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and
outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer
consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a
marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they
behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people
could not refuse - Christopher Hitchens.

How true this is and now they claim to be oppressed and that we the unbelievers are the intolerant ones. It would be laughable if it were not so serious as in many places around the world they are still making an offer you can't refuse and some would like to see this in the UK.

Actually, Cougar, your views are well known on this subject. And you are perfectly entitled to voice them, as most of us regulars know who you are and how you and the other mods work.

However, I'm not sure that having "moderator" next to your name always helps, and I wouldn't want some random visitor to the forum causing trouble for you or STW if something you said as an individual was taken out of context and twisted into being "the site" taking sides.

This thread has made me realise how bitter and twisted I have become,reading this thread made me think 'some of you guys really need to step away from your keyboard and go and get a life',but then I realised its me who is wrong,you guys are just internet monoliths and its your destiny to joust and argue it out with your ernormous internet cocks of knowledge,after all that's what forums are for.Isnt the internet great.

I felt these posts/opinions where dictatorial removing the freedom of choice form others.

you are perfectly entitled to voice them, as most of us regulars know who you are

I'd like to think that I'm entitled to voice an opinion (and everyone else is too of course) irrespective of who knows me.

I'm not sure that having "moderator" next to your name always helps

You may well be right, but that's their failing rather than mine. (-:

The only problem I've really seen with being 'out' as it were is that occasionally people use it as an excuse to make pissy little comments, but I just [i]ban[/i] ignore them. I do try, largely, to keep my "user" and "moderator" hats separate.

It's what chat forums are for, yes.

highclimber - Member
Criticising religious beliefs is not ignorance, intolerance or hypocritical.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

I think you may be missing my point...

all schools (inc private ones) should follow a specific curriculum (with the inference that it had no religious element)

So in your view private schools should be allowed to teach whatever they like, and be under no obligation to teach anything in particular (and anyone who disagrees is just the same as religious extremists)?

Why do we have compulsory education at all I wonder?

There is an awful lot of ignorance on this thread - together with a lot of prejudice, intellectual conceit and I can only imagine a significant amount of hypocrisy.

Disappointing really...

Thanks for your contribution, it's really raised the bar.

So in your view private schools should be allowed to teach whatever they like, and be under no obligation to teach anything in particular? And anyone who disagrees is just the same as religious extremists.

Sorry grum, I beg forgiveness. It's just that people's rabid often knee-jerk intolerance of others intolerance always strikes me as a little absurd. Also many of the arguments used here are pseudo-intellectual whilst making pretence at being intellectual. Pretentiousness and conceit are not attractive qualities....

You haven't raised the bar far yourself...

You haven't raised the bar far yourself...

To be honest there is only so much you can do with the subject matter.

One may disagree with others in terms of religious beliefs but IMO it is incorrect to force those anti-religious beliefs onto others in terms of banning religious education in schools or faith schools in totality.

Why? I'm loving all the strawmen/ad hominem stuff by the way.

jamj1974 - you're not under any obligation to read or contribute to any particular thread. Coming on here and non-specifically whining about how awful it is is hardly constructive or helpful.

IMO it is incorrect to force those anti-religious beliefs onto others in terms of banning religious education in schools or faith schools in totality.

It's not forcing anti-religious beliefs onto others - it's telling others they can't force their religious beliefs onto children.

I can't find the 'pseudo-intellectual' comments apart perhaps from a reference to Hitchens, whom I happen to agree with on religion if not on the ME. It's a been good knockabout stuff but it does reflect how the godbotherers squeal when something's said that they don't like. It's as though their opinions are sacrosanct and therefore beyond criticism and that 'moderation' is somehow a good thing. I don't think JC would have got into the books and magazines had he been a moderate let alone the other fella.

Hardly whining Grum - more angry. It's just all the same predictable poorly argued shite that frankly isn't worth hearing again. More willy waving, more posturing and more bollocks on this thread as on other similar threads. It's dull, and pointless one-upmanship.

Grum, if you can't take criticism - don't post. If you feel that passionately about atheism and religious intolerance do something about it rather than bashing a keyboard.

I know just how you feel, the other night I was hugely angered by a TV programme so I watched it for almost two hours, completely outraged the whole time and shouting at the screen.

I know just how you feel, the other night I was hugely angered by a TV programme so I watched it for almost two hours, completely outraged the whole time.

You should buy the Daily Hate, then you can also be outraged every morning whilst eating your cereal...

Grum, if you can't take criticism - don't post.

I can take criticism just fine thanks - it's more the non-specific whining that I have a problem with. By all means criticise some of the things I've said, but just moaning about how awful the thread is is utterly pointless.

Hardly whining Grum - more angry. It's just all the same predictable poorly argued shite that frankly isn't worth hearing again. More willy waving, more posturing and more bollocks on this thread as on other similar threads. It's dull, and pointless one-upmanship.

Whereas your posts here are what exactly?

That's a great idea Footflaps but I'm not sure it's pseudo-intellectual enough for me.

I know just how you feel, the other night I was hugely angered by a TV programme so I watched it for almost two hours, completely outraged the whole time and shouting at the screen.

but IMO it is incorrect to force those anti-religious beliefs onto others in terms of banning religious education in schools or faith schools in totality.

The main problem with having no religion taught in schools, as I see it, is that once a child receives sufficient knowledge to grasp of the universe, history and the effect religion has had throughout the ages etc, then religion would cease to have any allure, credibility or attraction, so the various religious authorities would lose control of their flock (funny how that's the collective noun for sheep!).

A friend of mine sends his kid to a state funded Steiner School.... the education system in this country really has gone mad. If you want your child indoctrinated about pixes, fairies, gods or devils you should ha e to pay and even then we should have limits.

Whereas your posts here are what exactly?

Not really a big willy waver TBH, nor am I intellectual enough to be even pseudo-intellectual. What I am saying is what is the point of the thread? It will change almost if not completely nothing. No-one will be any wiser or discover a fantastic insight. Which is a shame because so many threads on STW do!

Its called discussion if you dont like it **** off. Simples.

Its called discussion if you dont like it **** off. Simples.

Don't mind discussion - but the same discussion, over and over and over again...? The same discussion with the same closed-mindedness. The same discussion with the same people saying the same things. The same over-aggressive posturing that permeates all these discussions. The same discussions with people stating a position with a vehemence that they probably don't use offline.

Discussion involves a frank exchange of views, where actually you may gain greater insight, understanding or give the same to someone else. This is bombast and soundbites masquerading as discussion. Frankly it is tiresome.

Your logic is inverted here
Aetheism is not a subject on any syllabus that I am aware of.

Discussion involves a frank exchange of views, where actually you may gain greater insight, understanding or give the same to someone else. This is bombast and soundbites masquerading as discussion. Frankly it is tiresome.

Well see my second point then.

I think to disallow all faith schools, even private ones, is totally unacceptable.

Well I disagree with that. I think we should have complete separation between education and religious indoctrination.

Frankly it is tiresome.

1) Reading it isn't mandatory, as the ever-diplomatic unspellable_arseypants suggests.

2) If you don't like the direction the discussion is going why not lead by example rather than whining about it?

3) This kind of thread latterly seems to have started attracting a special kind of poster, one who makes sweeping statements about how the other posters are conducting themselves. As far as I can tell, the various cries of persecution / bullying / posturing / closed-mindedness etc etc appear largely baseless. That is to say, it may well have been true in the past, but the causes of such behaviour has (mostly) been removed; yet, some people seem to thrive on judging others by what's happened historically. So if you're going to say that people are doing x, y and z then you're going to have to cite what you're referring to, otherwise I'd respectfully suggest that your pants are on fire.

(* - somewhat ironically given the thread's subject matter)

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Well see my second point then.

I take it you used to take your toys away if the game didn't go your own way...?

No, just trying to help you out. If the threads so pointless and tiresome for you then dont post.

The purpose of a faith based school is to indoctrinate children into a given faith system. You may argue that religious education is not the same as indoctrination and you would be correct. Religious education would be the teaching of religious history and beliefs accross the various world religions to help children develop an understanding of religions and their place in the history and present of mankind. Faith schools on the whole do not do this. Instead they offer a typically monotheistic education citing the relgion of the school as the "correct" religion and reinforcing that view through repetition and immersion, that is a fair defintion of indoctrination.

I am glad that people are finally speaking out against the indoctrination of children as it's shameful and disgusting. In regard to the OP's post - I believe it is fair to say that the media and others are questioning how some islamic schools operate and coming up in some cases with very disturbing answers. When I see little people dressed up in religious garb I find it so, so sad.

Couger, its not unspellable its latin aint it. Had you gone to a good catholic school you might be able to spell it.

jambalaya

Ah right i took it out of context, Sorry.

I think ban would be OTT but i dont want to pay for it or have it forced on me.
If they pay they can , begrudgingly * do as they please.

* wont someone think of the children

The government have a body that watch the ins and outs of there practices
for years. Surprised people think this is actuarially new news ?

Couger, its not unspellable its latin

Iron. Ing.

(unspellable_arseypants suffers 'recognition of sarcasm' failure).

Anyway - god in schools, eh? No thanks. 😀

It is fascinating how the discussion has digressed. There have been very few direct responses to my questions in the op. I really wasn't asking for opinions on religious preference or whether RI is acceptable in schools. More whether the current reporting of possible extremist teaching in specifically Islamic schools was bias, and/or whether people feel the Muslim community is trying to hide something.

Iron. Ing.

(unspellable_arseypants suffers 'recognition of sarcasm' failure).

Whoosh.....
Latin, Catholicism, schools, yes? No?
Never mind.

Blimey. I just read all this, and I can't believe people are arguing about it!

Surely, experience teaches us that if someone believes I made up nonsense like religion - no amount of reasoning will sway them. Just avoid the nutters in real life.

More whether the current reporting of possible extremist teaching in specifically Islamic schools was bias,

and/or whether people feel the Muslim community is trying to hide something

HTH

What's your evidence and /or research for those statements Junkyard?
Or am I missing an implied inflection in the tone of your text? 🙂

Should this be surprising to non Muslims? - What the **** has it got to do with non Muslims? do Muslims have a right or indeed any inclination to investigate and oppose the Christian Sunday School across the road from me?

Is this something you are concerned about and what possible negative outcome could result in withdrawing interference? - I'm no expert but I'm pretty certain there are all sorts of different schools around the world with many different languages, approaches and religions as their base.. Do we feel threatened by Steiner schools for example?

Do you believe there is false reporting and possibly a deliberate attempt to bolster anti Muslim sentiment from within the government as suggested? - Possibly, but only cos there is no sane alternative explanation for any sort of outcry..

As far as I'm aware. Steiner schools aren't under investigation at the moment.
I'm asking what you believe. I asked questions. If I wanted to make sweeping statements, I would have done so in the op and the thread would then be a discussion of my views.

Do you really want me to expand

Sometimes some of the anti muslim thing is just that - Halal meat is one i tend to think is just anti muslim rhetoric. You are eating chickens industrial bred in pens they cannot move and then served to you in a bucket from an american company. You then want to discuss your heritage being ruined and animal welfare issue.. I dont believe you. Ditto schools some just use it as a rod to beat them

However I have worked in an Islamic girls school for almost 1 minute till my penis meant I was banned.
My organisation would never had given in to sexism amd IMHO racism had a "white school" asked for a male white person for example.

They also struggle to teach art and music due to their interpretation and I doubt they cover evolution all that well. I think they are more dogmatic/faith based than other [christian] religions

i have no experience of other faith schools

Sorry.. I wasn't specifically having a pop at you gears suck.. just at the blatant demonisation of islam that seems so ****ing normal and acceptable in our society

Regardless of everyone else's beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

(aaah... good ninja edit - sound points)

well.. I would say that they have every reason to be paranoid that war is being waged against them..

The way our media covers any remotely iffy (or horrendous) story that occurs within the immensely huge and diverse global Islamic community and screams 'look at them... this is what they are like'

It's bollocks innit

, Islam seems

Some of Islam seems Cougar, some of

All creeds have their extremists even MTB ers - not meaning you and not just SS either.

"seems"

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views rather than go "nowt to do with us guv," maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they're not representative?

They do but we hear little about it as it does not sell newspapers

Interestingly my mate[ Blackburn] had this at his mosque way before 9/11 with extremists infiltrating it. They went to the police who said it had nothing to do with them
The community fought back and reclaimed the mosque and also the youth and noe work very closely with the police and tackle this issue often.

FWIW most of the extremists are mentally ill with a history of drug abuse and are often converts to Islam.
They do work against this but few of us know any Muslim sor go down the mosque to know what they fdo and most importantly this does not sell papers
When did you last read a positive EU story ? A positive story about someone on benefits? or a cyclist story ?
Same for Muslims but they are more scary

We hear of the islamic nutters like we hear of the cyclist who ride on pavements and we do nothing to stop them or RLJ either- same old same old

wouldn't most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn't actually reflect their views

How would that happen though?

When a Christian person or extremist group performs an atrocity do we each personally as part of a global Christian community jump up and stride out into the world to calm everyone down and allay fears?

Do you?

I'm pretty sure that for every specific incident, Muslim leaders in the effected communities come out to state that the shit that went down was not in the name of Islam..?
Are there not police and armed forces in each localised incident tackling the problem to the best of their abilities..?

Yunki did you get an e-mail from me /STW re your P?

errrrr non..?

How recently..? I cleaned out the last few weeks inbox with a flamethrower yesterday