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I'll wait and see thanks - if in six months, or a year, deaths drop and hospital admissions recede to pre pandemic levels I'll happily agree. As it currently stands cases (in my area) and deaths nationally are still rising/continue.
Covid won't stop because it 'has too' because we all want to go back to 2019, it won't stop because the government has changed its measures - it'll stop when it does, gradually - society has, and will change with it.
I've also edited my previous response.
what is his angle and why is he being silenced on MSM?
He wrote a paper in the mid / late 90's on the use mRNA vaccines, which were just about being invented and talked about at the time. The paper has been misquoted by a couple antivax people in the us the videos of which subsequently went viral - the anti vaxers who quoted him first stated that they were also Dr's, but we're found to have bought their qualifications from one of those 'mail me a doctorate' university's in the US, one was a doctorate in homeopathy iirc, & the university went bust in the same month he bought his qualification 🤔
Anyway the mis- quote was basically that he would never in any circumstances, ever, have a human take an mRNA vaccine. He has subsequently stated he'd never said that and that it was a mis quote or out of context etc, he has also has personally had 2 doses of the Moderna vaccine so far.
The paper is now over 25yrs out of date but is still used in various antivax propaganda. We have 4? Nobel prize winners in the field and numerous papers which disagree.
I still can’t understand how folks don’t understand the benefits to society of vaccination. Debate the transmission risk all you want, but more unvaccinated means more people in hospital, equals more pressure on the nhs. This is an undisputed fact.
So if you don’t want to get vaccinated don’t, it’s your choice. But don’t come up with shite about how it only benefits the individual because unless you are pig shit thick you know that’s not true
@monkeyboyjc:
I’ll wait and see thanks – if in six months, or a year, deaths drop and hospital admissions recede to pre pandemic levels I’ll happily agree.
It's not going to drop to pre-pandemic levels. Covid's never going to stop. It's going to kill people forever. And every single person on the planet is going to get it. Likely repeatedly.
Beyond everybody getting vaccinated who will (and all the anti-vaxxers getting a level of immunity through infection (at a 30+ times higher death toll than the vaccinated) there's nothing else to be done.
@Tjagain:
Get vaccinated, wear masks, observe distancing, ventilate indoor areas. simple measures that reduce transmission without causing any real detriment
1) Vaccinated - pretty much everyone who's getting vaccinated has been vaccinated. TICK.
2) Masks? I think its a good idea if you're ill and decide not to stay at home. Works well in the east. It's a general "hygene" thing. so TICK for that - but do you expect everyone to wear masks forever?
3) Observe Distancing. What? For-ever? Nope. During the worst of the pandemic until we were vaccinated? Yep. (TICK) But now? Lol. Jump. We're getting back to what humans like to do - close physical contact. And that is correct - and the existence of the immunocompromised (who were immunocompromised before covid) won't be stopping that. It didn't before, so it won't now.
4) Ventilate indoor areas. Yep. But it's going to be pointless in crowded bars, for example. Unless you are suggesting that we can never again get to crowded bars? Which would suck.
so:
5) simple measures that reduce transmission. TICK. During the pandemic until we were vaccinated.
Now we've been vaccinated? Nope. Back to normal. Sorry. But not sorry. Not really. Vaccination was the end game. The world is now a covid world. You could insist on all the above measures and *everyone would still get it* - so all of your above measures are largely pointless.
I feel for those who've been dealt a shit hand. I've done my utmost for the last two years of my life to obey every single thing I can do. Fully compliant.
But I'm not compromising the rest of my life for other people. And the vast majority of humans won't want to either. And not only won't they want to - they're not going to.
That doesn't put "blood on our hands" . That's down to the existence of Covid. That we've done the best we can with. By getting vaccinated.
Get your sense of perspective back please you massive drama queen.
monkeyboyjc
Full Memberwhat is his angle and why is he being silenced on MSM?
He wrote a paper in the mid / late 90’s on the use mRNA vaccines..
He claims to have done more than that, a lot more. Being misquoted is not a reason for his views to be censored is it? He also claims to have been targeted to have his medical licence revoked under some rather odd circumstances.
Why is this guy getting singled out?
But I’m not compromising the rest of my life for other people.
And for all your bluster, there we have it. "I'm not wearing a bit of cloth on my face any more just because not doing so might kill someone I don't know. I feel for them, I really do, but ultimately, **** 'em, they should be used to being social pariahs by now. I'm going to the pub, hopefully a crowded one."
Get your sense of perspective back please you massive drama queen.
Well now. Irony?
why is he being silenced on MSM?
...
Why is this guy getting singled out?
I've no idea who this guy is and I don't really care to find out. But I'm curious as to how "being silenced in mainstream media" works. Like, is that not just "not getting airtime because it's not newsworthy"? By that logic, you're being silenced on MSM too.
Covid, in blighty, is over though. Life is returning to normal. As it should.
A million pupils out of school, lessons cancelled because there's no cover for missing staff. I know you really, really want your statement to be true, but it ain't.
@pondo - RETURNING to normal. Not "back to normal" - but on it's way there.
@Cougar - the aim was to stop the spread until the vaccines were here. Now the vaccines are here. - and covid is here *forever*
So tell me again. What does mask wearing achieve any more? Considering - masks or not - we're all going to get it multiple times?
Perspective.
Vaccines were the end game. The immunocompromised have been dealt a bad hand - but we can't "un-deal" that hand to them. We could all wear masks, all day, every day, everywhere - and they're still going to get covid.
So there's no moral argument for continued restrictions on the vast majority of the population like there was before - because once the vaccines were here, that was the best we could hope for.
We're vaccinated. That's it. I'm not saying you have to like it. But you DO have to lump it.
Cougar asked me to provide evidence on this subject, so i have.
And I appreciate that. I'll try and get time to have a look through it in the morning, though your sources (eg, the Daily Mail and Torygraph) don't immediately fill me with confidence.
He just chose to answer with a query rather than go look for himself.
We've been through this. It's not my job to back up or refute your claims. You can post shit all day long which may or may not be true, it's easy to post emotive one-liners that you might've heard once but I'm going to Chope it all until you start doing some fact-checking before you post. If and when I trust you as a source then I'll take you at your word, at this moment in time this has not happened.
So I’ve added the links for him to see.
Would've generated 80% less requirement for WOO HOO from you if you'd just done that in the first place.
Covid’s never going to stop.
I thought you were saying that it’s over? Or were you just hoping that we don’t have to think about it, or consider it, any more. An understandable desire. Telling people that what you hope for is just fact is an interesting way of trying to get your head in that space though.
Anecdotally I’m most usually happy to be wrong because there is an opportunity to learn.
Likewise. Which is just as well, because it happens a lot. (-:
@iffoverload:
If you're talking about Andrew Wakefield (?) he was a criminal t**t of the highest order who was struck off the medical register because he more than anyone created and stoked the anti-vaxxer movement by his debunked, scientifically disproven idiocy.
100% disproven. Not "controversial". Not "mixed results". Peer-reviewed bullcrap.
One of the few humans I would happily see dead, because idiots follow - and anti-vaxxers follow him in droves. And he's *killed* them and made all of this harder and longer than it needed to be for everyone.
So he went abroad. Continues to make loads of cash as far as I know.
@pondo – RETURNING to normal. Not “back to normal” – but on it’s way there.
Nope, worse than it's ever been and getting worse. Sorry - reality's a bastard, isn't it.
Hey @judetheobscure member since 5th Dec 2021, who has never once posted a topic or replied to a thread in the *actual* cycling forum. I'm still waiting for you to apologise.
Also, which do you prefer, SRAM or Shimano? Steel or ally, 650B or 26"?
@Kelvin:
I thought you were saying that it’s over? Or we’re just hoping that we don’t have to think about it, or consider it, any more.
Don't be disingenuous. You know exactly what I mean by "covid's over".
But to be explicit - "covid is over" means we've had our vaccinations, that's the best we can do. Now we have to go back to normal life and live with it.
For many of us vaccinated types that means we might get to our 80's and then covid is going to get us then - when we develop co-morbidities that make us much more vulnerable.
But until then - covid is OVER - we can - and should - crack on. Because there's nothing else meaningful we can do to combat it.
And meaningful is important. Yes, we can wear masks every day. Disposable gloves. Rub alcohol gels in our faces and test before we answer the door to the postie. But it won't stop each and every one of us catching it.
So we need to crack on. And the people who've been dealt a bad hand need to crack on too. And we will - in fact ARE doing.
I'm not sure what the world will look like with Covid. But I'll find out. And discuss it with my mates. In a crowded pub with a jam to get to the bar.
And maybe when I'm 80 I'll die of it. But I'm not going to live in fear of it until then.
@chevychase No I was asking about Dr Robert Muler
Cougar
Full Member
I’ve no idea who this guy is and I don’t really care to find out.
well he is one of the key people behind the development of the technology you are
promoting
.... would do my graduate work at san diego and i'd been accepted into a program at ucsan diego that had two of the top gene therapy specialists I really wanted to do gene therapywith retroviruses that was what I thought was going to bemy life and so we moved down to san diego and I started working in the laboratory of indoor verma which is in the molecular biology and virology labs at the salk institute and this is a placewhere graduate students normally aren't allowed to go it was there was seven nobel laureatesat the time plus Jonas a really intense competitive environment carved out a little niche that Iwas going to work on for my graduate work which was asking questions about how retrovirusRNA is packaged and from that I had to develop a series of technologies to manufacture RNAand structure it and eventually put it into cells and that through a cascade of events being at theright place the right time asking the right questions surrounded by geniuses led to the series of discoveries that now performs the basis of the RNA technology platform that gives rise to thesevaccines and 10 issued patents from they were all filed in ‘89. So, that's kind of my origin storythat it relates to this virus and vaccine and this but since then went on finished my md did twofellowships at uc davis top pathology for years set up a gene therapy lab had many other discoveries came out to the east coast created the technology platform that is now the basis of the company called inovio we actually originally founded inovio in the United States this is uhpulsed electrical fields they have one of the DNA vaccines for Covid then the planes hit thetowers the investors pulled back and I went to work for a company called dynport vaccinecompany that had the prime systems contract as government speak for all the biodefenseproducts for the department of defense for advanced development which is to say clinical trialsthrough licensure and that's my kind of transition from being an academic to focusing on actuallymaking things that work in people and the big epiphany there was that the world is full of theseacademic thought leaders that publish in big journals and stuff but that doesn't really lead toproducts and I really wanted to make productsthat would help people and so since then for the last I guess about 20 years I've been focusedon actually doing stuff regulatory affairs, clinical development, getting necessary training, etc.completed a fellowship at harvard university medical school in uh global as a global clinicalscholar to round out my cv and I've uh run you know over 100 clinical trials mostly in the vaccinespace but also in drug repurposing I've been involved in every major outbreak since aids this iskind of what I do um I've won literally billions of dollars in federal grants and contracts I'm oftenbrought in by nih to serve as a study section chair for awarding you know 80 to 120 million dollar contracts in vaccines and biodefense I've spent countless hours at the CDC at the AC ACIPmeetings um I have multiple friends at the CDC I work closely with defense threat reductionagency which is a and it's one of my favorite uh clients partners teaming partners and I workwith the chem biodefense group there's other branches um including the other this is not thebranch that funded the wuhan labs that's another branch of DTRA um I've got many friends inthe intelligence community so I'm I'm kind of a pretty deep insider in terms of the government Iknow Tony Fauci personally I've dealt with him my whole career and then and then we had thisparticular outbreak and um I was uh tip of the spear on bringing the ebola vaccine forward thatwe now call the merc ebola vaccine I'm the one that got Merk involved
also
But I’m curious as to how “being silenced in mainstream media” works. Like, is that not just “not getting airtime because it’s not newsworthy”? By that logic, you’re being silenced on MSM too.
No, it's not. Are you stupid or just on your 4th beer tonight? 🙂
@pondo:
Nope, worse than it’s ever been and getting worse. Sorry – reality’s a bastard, isn’t it.
Data isn't backing that up. Which is why we're removing the conditions. NHS is improving. Death rates are falling because the vaccine remains effective and omicron, despite being much more contagious, isn't killing as many people (whilst infecting many times more).
So no. Reality is looking up.
But even if you were competent at understanding facts, figures and graphs - and weren't just wrong all day - then reality still wouldn't be a bastard - because I'm vaccinated and the facts on the ground right now is that we're removing restrictions.
Tomorrow night I'm off for a pint or two with the o/h and then for either a pizza or a curry. Un-masked, with the rest of the majority-vaccinated blighty. What a bastard reality eh?
Aside from eradicating the virus – which we can’t/won’t do (pick one) – there is literally *nothing* else that can be done now.
Are you familiar with treatments? Have you tried to access one? It’s not over until the fat lady sings gets simple access to antivirals.
Seriously, we’re about a year behind the virus. Next winter will see rollout of omicron specific vaccines that with have much improved efficacy against symptoms. We will have rapid access to treatments. The winter after, we’ll be ahead of the game. And the winter after that, we’ll be endemic and “over”. There’ll still be people who won’t want the vaccine though 😟
The real test of over is how we deal with another variant. It’s been getting better, but we got lucky with omicron. When vaccine escape really happens, it’s over when we’re ready for it. And we will be.
And meaningful is important.
Indeed. Testing before visiting care homes, or your cancer clinic. That’ll carry on for a while I’m afraid. Wearing a mask while you’re in queue because you’ve got a bit of a cough, that one might be with us still next winter at least. All sorts of small adaptations that don’t remove meaning from life might be with us for a while. But not forever. As you keep saying, vaccines (and I’ll add treatments) are the end game, and they have much more to offer yet.
As for whatever you’ve been doing with gloves, gel and your postie… you can probably stop that now.
I’ll be choosing mask wearing in shops and public transport etc for a while yet. But you don’t have to. I don’t have to share your idea that the pandemic is over, but don’t confuse that for not wishing it was.
And as for the pub stuff, that feels like a rant from a year ago. Pub going has felt pretty normal for a lot of people for a while now.
chevychase - Free Member
So we need to crack on. And the people who’ve been dealt a bad hand need to crack on too.
That's just too, too charming not to quote. Next time I see a picture of doctors with faces rubbed raw by PPE, clinicians sleeping in scrubs on trolleys in hallways, relatives in tears graveside, I'll just remember to myself - in spite of the simple mitigations we can all take, those people just got dealt a bad hand. F*** em, crack on everybody.
The humanity's almost enough to make me weep.
eg, the Daily Mail and Torygraph) don’t immediately fill me with confidence.
Naw sorry, thats a trap. I included the DM because i wanted you to show issue with that source ,while the rest are from medical forums.
It’s not my job to back up or refute your claims.
No it is not, but you chose to query them none the less pushing the ball into my court. What were you expecting me to do when you posted the question ?.
Would’ve generated 80% less requirement for WOO HOO from you if you’d just done that in the first place.
Indeed, but you'd vanished and i thought your mum had called you in for tea, or to stop playing with your action men and come down to put your jammies on.
Data isn’t backing that up.
Isn't it?!? Well, holy shit I just got a revelation - my wife, our friends, all those teachers on social media, they're just wrong and everything's getting back to normal! She'll be so pleased that she doesn't have to worry about progress 8 for classes with 60% attendance where she also has to create online content that almost certainly won't get done, as well as writing cover for her colleagues who aren't there and/or cover teachers that don't arrive. That's a big tick for the children and she no longer has to worry about passing her performance management - woo hoo! 🙂
Those million kids out of school, the data doesn't back THAT up, right? 🙂
So tell me again. What does mask wearing achieve any more?
What harm does it do?
Considering – masks or not – we’re all going to get it multiple times?
Perhaps, but, it reduses risk. If you had a cold would you sneeze in someone's face because they're probably going to catch it anyway, or would you use a tissue? Christ, "coughs and sneezes spread diseases" was a slogan a hundred years ago, they'd probably have sold the soul of their firstborn for a box of FFP2 masks.
The immunocompromised have been dealt a bad hand – but we can’t “un-deal” that hand to them.
**** 'em them. Amirite?
No I was asking about Dr Robert Muler
Dr Robert Malone. Self proclaimed founder of MRNA vaccines, he wasn’t they’d be development long before he was on the scene, he was part of 100s of researchers who were part of what we got. He spat his dummy out over something and left his employer, I can’t recall what. Since then he’s been very bitter and claims to invented, spreads dangerous misinformation and had in injunction placed on him for repeatedly he was employed by a health care company he wasn’t part of. He’s the Farage of virology, sells any story to whoever will give him airtime and cash.
... but you’d vanished and i thought your mum had called you in for tea, or to stop playing with your action men and come down to put your jammies on.
I know you're ostensibly not anti-vax but that's anti-vac tactics to a tee when you run out of logic to argue with.
Perspective.
Vaccines were the end game. The immunocompromised have been dealt a bad hand – but we can’t “un-deal” that hand to them. We could all wear masks, all day, every day, everywhere – and they’re still going to get covid.
My wife is immunocompromised, my stepson is immunocompromised, one of my bestest mates ever is immunocompromised. You're saying that I should just shrug my shoulders and say "meh"?
Continues to make loads of cash as far as I know.
The worse bit is he’s now shagging Ella McPherson I believe, whereas if there was any justice in this world he’d have died of syphilis long ago..
There is no “I” in drug development. Anyone with a track record knows that. He may have played a small part, but you have operation warp speed to thank for mRNA from Moderna, and you have prevnar and enzalutamide to thank for Pfizer (they paid for their own trials). The technology had a ten year lead-in. A pneumococcal Vaccine and prostate cancer revenues got them over the line.
As far as masks go, we need to be more Japanese.
They *amazingly* think it's a little anti social to spread their germs if they are ill. Mad eh? Is Brits proudly stumble into work to spread our snot to as many colleagues as we can.
I'll say it again, if people can't be bothered to wear a mask during a pandemic I doubt they've ever bothered to wash their hands after having a dump either.
well he is one of the key people behind the development of the technology you are promoting
For at least the third time on this thread: I'm not promoting anything.
In any case, I refer your wall of text to the reply monkeyboyjc already gave you. [EDIT: and Drac]
No, it’s not. Are you stupid or just on your 4th beer tonight?
If that's the best response you've got then I think I'm done talking with you, smiley face or no.
I don't think Robert Muler claimed to simgle handedly develop anything in that interview, have you seen it? If you have not I guess asking for opinions on his views is pointless..
If that’s the best response you’ve got then I think I’m done talking with you, smiley face or no.
play stupid games... win stupid prizes 🙂
Are you familiar with treatments? Have you tried to access one? It’s not over until the fat lady sings gets simple access to antivirals.
Oh my word yes. Unless a Benjamin Button vaccine comes along my 92 year old mum is going to be at risk, boosted or not.
Being able to make a call, or go to a pharmacy the same day as a positive test to start her on a course of antivirals?... When I can do that for her I will feel, personally, I've finally come out of this bloody long, dark, tunnel.
I can see a very bright light now but I'm still not quiet there.
I included the DM because i wanted you to show issue with that source ,while the rest are from medical forums.
Such as the Telegraph?
you chose to query them none the less pushing the ball into my court.
Sure. Because I didn't know either way and couldn't be arsed to try and reverse engineer / mindread what you might have been referring to. Probably a trivial google but so is fact-checking every single other spurious argument on the Internet and life's too short.
What were you expecting me to do when you posted the question ?.
What I was hoping you'd do is exactly what you did. What I was expecting, well, eh.
you’d vanished
Shocking I know, but I occasionally have other things to do.
My dormant-forum-account-recently-reactivated-****er-o-meter is frankly going nuts.
Honestly, there's a lot of it going about at the moment.
@kelvin @cougar - the mask wearing when you're ill thing - on this very page in my response to TJ I said I think it's a good idea. Not just for covid - but also general hygine - and I actually thought that before covid. (Hospitals? No brainer!)
Remember when people used to laugh at tge Japanese for wearing masks? Well they had SARS. And it's to our disgrace that our governments didn't learn from THEIR experience.
We're not far apart in our views. We'd act conscientiously. But unworriedly.
@kelvin - pubs have been normal in england I guess, but not in Wales. And I welcome that return to normality.
For the vast majority of us - we can and should stop worrying about it.
Honestly, there’s a lot of it going about at the moment.
Aye, I haven't seen sealioning on this scale since I went to Colchester Zoo in 1981.
For the uninitiated:
For the vast majority of us – we can and should stop worrying about it.
For ourselves, yeah? But you know that societal behaviour is not just about what's good for you.
I know you’re ostensibly not anti-vax but that’s anti-vac tactics to a tee when you run out of logic to argue with.
Ooo, Ostensibly not anti vax. Well that settles it. Despite having all the jabs and happy for anything else, and saying people should take the vaccine as it considerably lessens the chances of developing serious complications, im apparently telling whoppers and in reality, as you see it i add, am really an anti vaxxer in disguise.
That must be a first in the history of the anti vaxx movement. To be pro vaxx, to happily accept all the jabs, to say to others to get the jabs and at the same time be anti vaxx.
Incredible deduction. You should write a book.
Oh no wait, the Brothers Grimm have already done the big book of fairytales.
COVID-19: Antisemitism 'on the rise' as anti-vaxxers blamed for helping to fuel hatred
Honestly, I am ing tired of this sort of shit. It's almost as though someone's stirred up a whole *tsnest.
I guess asking for opinions on his views is pointless..
I’m familiar with his views. And his views on ivermectin bear no relation to the principles of Clinical Pharmacology I practice daily. I’m also familiar with the history of mRNA. The review below is worth a read. Because that is the technology that has delivered the vaccines. It is long established and it’s time has come. Sadly it hasn’t worked out in oncology (yet).
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0
Declaimer: I used to work with one of the authors (Tal Zaks, ex Modena CMO), but I don’t work on mRNA.
We’re not far apart in our views. We’d act conscientiously. But unworriedly.
At that level, sure.
I'm not worried, for myself at any rate. I'm double-jabbed and boosted as is my immediate family (both of them). I'm washing my hands, I carry a little bottle of hand sanitiser even though contact-transmission is largely negligible, I wear an FFP2 mask when outside unless I'm eating or drinking. Tending towards zero worries here, for the price of "minor inconvenience."
Ooo, Ostensibly not anti vax. Well that settles it. Despite having all the jabs and happy for anything else, and saying people should take the vaccine as it considerably lessens the chances of developing serious complications, im apparently telling whoppers and in reality, as you see it i add, am really an anti vaxxer in disguise.
Dyna-ti -
- is pro-vax, double-vaccinated and boosted
- vigorously and repeatedly presses anti-vax arguments
What do you think I should think?
That they are bored and playing games.
Ooo, Ostensibly not anti vax. Well that settles it. Despite having all the jabs and happy for anything else, and saying people should take the vaccine as it considerably lessens the chances of developing serious complications, im apparently telling whoppers and in reality, as you see it i add, am really an anti vaxxer in disguise.
You never answered my question before (I don't think, there's been a lot of bollocks been thrown around). Do you think that you shouting at anyone that will listen, that "forcing" (your, incorrect, word) people to get vaccinated is a trait of fascism, bathes the vaccine in a positive or negative light?
If you were unsure about something, would someone you know linking it to fascism encourage you to get it?
Or do you not really give a ****, and this is all just a bit of sport to you?
Repeatedly presses anti-vax arguments
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument ?. So you believe freedom is anti vaxx. Thats the only one I've postulated throughout this entire thread.
So maybe you could agree that freedom is more important that even this pandemic, that has thus far killed 0.22% of the population.
But no.
I think you're worse than the anti vaxx brigade, you are them in reverse, and shut your ears to anything that differs from your own views on this matter.
You never answered my question before
Sorry Tom, what was your question. I've probably over looked it or saw it as a statement. Please repeat.
And incidentally im not shouting, and if i was that claim would be leveled against everyone else here.
people to get vaccinated is a trait of fascism
WOW Tom, I think you have picked up the wrong end of the stick, .
All I have said, is people should have the freedom to choose to have the vaccine or not. Which is what 80,000 NHS staff are going on about. The nurses union is saying the same thing. Many or the people int he street are saying the same thing. NO Mandate. Freedom to choose we have, but the proposal is freedom to chose, and if you dont chose to have it there will be a penalty to pay, which in the case of the NHS staff is the loss of their job. Or in employment the loss of sick pay should you become infected. There are more reason to people not wishing to be vaccinated than not just for the hell of it.
That must be a first in the history of the anti vaxx movement. To be pro vaxx, to happily accept all the jabs, to say to others to get the jabs and at the same time be anti vaxx.
(To avoid any misunderstanding: this reply is not directed at you in this instance, "you" here is a generalisation referring to "one / them / someone," it's simply easier to type).
As soon as you feel the need to justify your argument before you've even started making it, you're generally on shaky ground and know it. It's the "I'm not racist but..." gambit.
"I'm not racist but..." [says something racist] "... and one of my friends is black!"
"I've had my vaccinations but..." [trots out the usual widely-debunked tropes]
"I'm new here but..." [totally isn't a returning banned]
"I voted Remain but..." [hi, I'm dazh] 😁
"No offence but..." [says something offensive]
"I'm not being funny but..." [wants to call you a prick and get away with it]
&c, &c.
If your intentions are honourable then you shouldn't need to feel compelled to bookend it. (And yes, I know that's almost what I just did.)
*coughs*
Always check the posting history.
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument
No. Your dogged and persistent assertion that we don't have freedom of choice when we clearly do is an anti-vax argument. As is all the "what next?" slippery slope fallacies being thrown about by all and sundry.
Really? You stopped reading after 6 words?
Do you think that you shouting at anyone that will listen, that “forcing” (your, incorrect, word) people to get vaccinated is a trait of fascism, bathes the vaccine in a positive or negative light?
If you were unsure about something, would someone you know linking it to fascism encourage you to get it?
Or do you not really give a ****, and this is all just a bit of sport to you?
edit, going further, if an antivaxxer supports your view (that it's a fascist plot) is it therefore an antivax view, regardless of if you've succumbed to it had the vaccine?
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument
Freedom to infect is a pro ***t choice.
I don’t think Robert Muler claimed to simgle handedly develop anything in that interview,
Malone. Maybe not in that interview but he has many other times.
thanks for the link, mostly way outside my field of understanding but the bits that meant something to me were helpful, it certainly is a very interesting and versatile technology that will be a game changer for many. The safety concerns of it's use are acknowleged there but very breifly.
re the ivermectin and the principals of Clinical Pharmacology, again I am not really qualified to comment but there does seem to be evidence it was useful in India when distributed.
As per a report published in The Indian Express on May 12, 2021, the Uttar Pradesh government itself had conceded that the large-scale therapeutic use of Ivermectin helped to maintain a low Covid-19 positivity rate and a low fatality rate as compared to the other Indian States. Following the development of the first Covid-19 cluster in Agra, the State Health Department introduced Ivermectin and Doxycycline in August 2020 for both prophylaxis and treatment of the Wuhan Coronavirus.
While speaking to The Indian Express, State Surveillance Officer Vikasendu Agrawal had said, “Uttar Pradesh was the first state in the country to introduce large-scale prophylactic and therapeutic use of Ivermectin. In May-June 2020, a team at Agra, led by Dr Anshul Pareek, administered Ivermectin to all RRT team members in the district on an experimental basis. It was observed that none of them developed Covid-19 despite being in daily contact with patients who had tested positive for the virus.”
Get your sense of perspective back please you massive drama queen.
Can I re-quote that back to you on your anti ebike posts?
@ iffoverload
I'd tend to think this analysis is more credible.
You’re siting more and more rubbish from terrible sources. It’s not helping anyone take you seriously.
PJM1974
Free MemberFreedom to infect is a pro ***t choice.
Thing is that vaccination reduces transmition (probably,but varients..?) and encourages social activity.
So the "Freedom" of the vaxport green pass scheme could be considered as giving people a false sense of security and actually encouraging and sanctioning transmission.
My dormant-forum-account-recently-reactivated-****er-o-meter is frankly going nuts.
Perhaps you're sitting too close to it.
The problem with ivermectin and also hydroxychloroquine and other old drugs, is that they work in the lab. So they MUST work in patients? Sadly the doses needed to work are toxic. It’s not that they won’t stop the virus, it’s just you’ll be poisoned taking them at levels that do. We call that a “therapeutic index” ivermectin doesn’t have one. A dose 30x higher might be interesting. There have been cases of ivermectin poisoning in the US.
Pfizer’s paxlovid is the first real antiviral tablet of note with a proper therapeutic index. It’s efficacy would not have been missed in a small trial like the many many trials run for ivermectin.
And yes, the history of mRNA is fascinating. That some are sensitive to the peg coating was already known before trials began.
Freedom of choice is an anti vaxx argument ?. So you believe freedom is anti vaxx. Thats the only one I’ve postulated throughout this entire thread.
We've been here before, mate - you HAVE freedom of choice.
Yes pongo I know that.
We have freedom of choice. We can either do what we are told, or face consequences.
But even if that wasn't the case as I see it, here's the thing, the crux. None of you are ratifying my freedom of choice.
You're shouting, and screaming and insulting and demeaning, but not, not accepting.
@ poopscoop
yeah would have to agree, the takeaway for me on that is the bottom line
" Scientists have said that more study is necessary. "
and
"that there is no peer-reviewed randomized control study that shows that ivermectin is the reason why cases are going down"
this is not proof that it did not have a possibly beneficial effect, might be good reasons why further study is not being done though... IDK.
Also very interesting was the "garbage data" angle, given the way people like to chuck around numbers here it is concerning that this "data" which is subject to multiple variables is taken as some form of conclusive proof of anything rather than a rough indicator, testing levels 0 = cases 0 and it is not really in doubt that every case is not reported for a variety of reasons. IMO the numbers are mostly misleading.
edit @TiRed oh they have done trials, makes sense and thanks.
So the “Freedom” of the vaxport green pass scheme could be considered as giving people a false sense of security and actually encouraging and sanctioning transmission.
F*** me.
The mental gymnastics that have been wrangled here deserve some sort of award, here! it is!
Thats the only one I’ve postulated throughout this entire thread.
No you’ve also argued that mandating vaccines for healthcare staff is in some way akin to Nazi Germany/The Holocaust/Fascism. That isn’t some generic ‘arguing for freedom’ (whatever that means), it’s a specific argument.
A specific (if specious) argument that happens also to be part of the general COVID-19 antivaxx conspiracist canon.
Jerusalem: Protesters against COVID-19 measures who liken themselves to Jews under Nazi persecution are stoking global anti-Semitism, the Israeli government said in a report marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day.
Such Holocaust tropes have become "widespread" and, along with violent demonstrations linked to Israel's May war in Gaza, were main factors behind physical or online attacks on Jews in Europe and North America last year, said the 152-page report by the Diaspora Affairs Ministry.Several US and British politicians have in recent months apologised after suggesting vaccine or lockdown policies recalled Hitler's regime.
Some demonstrators against pandemic curbs have worn yellow stars like those the Nazis forced on European Jews.
Such displays showed factual knowledge of the genocide was eroding, the report said, adding that some COVID-19 agitators have been "consuming and disseminating anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that Jews are responsible for the crisis and are using it for oppression, global domination, economic gain, etc".
Expanding on the findings, Diaspora Affairs Minister Nachman Shai said Holocaust distortion or trivialisation is itself anti-Semitic and can sometimes lead to actual endangerment of Jews.
PJM1974
Free MemberF*** me.
er, appreciate the offer but will respectfully decline as you have declined to respond sensibly to a logical argument or what you consider "mental gymnastics"* lol
* Is that because you find it such an effort to think?
er, appreciate the offer but will respectfully decline as you have declined to respond sensibly to a logical argument or what you consider “mental gymnastics”* lol
* Is that because you find it such an effort to think?
Which Viz comic strip did you land from, Mr Logic?
So the “Freedom” of the vaxport green pass scheme could be considered as giving people a false sense of security and actually encouraging and sanctioning transmission.
Lets pick this apart.
"A vax passport scheme might encourage transmission"
"Promoting condom usage might encourage people to have sex"
F***Sake P7. Bringing the holocaust into this ?. thats your doing. not mine.No doubt you'd happily add that to your rebuttals, now you've happily included it.
There have been fascist governments throughout the world and across time. Not all of them engaged in genocide. Nazi Germany is the most modern example that most wall be able to identify. I could have used the Roman empire or Sparta as reference to this, but Germany under the nazi regime I felt was more understandable a concept.
.
And when freedom is removed from democracy, what then do you call it ?. Certainly not democracy.
This is not a rhetorical question(not that that will deter you lol.)
What does that even mean
Well.... Every person has the right and freedom of thought, belief, possessing a political opinion, the choice to fulfill or not to fulfill the requirements of his chosen religion. Nobody can dominate other opinions and consciences
In contemporary democracies, individual freedoms have a special value and importance, and these individual freedoms cannot be subject to state or personal interventions.
So yes I have been referring to freedom continually.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion on the matter. I for one have never challenged that. That would impede on your freedom of choice.
You,and others on this thread have done nothing but.
But even if that wasn’t the case as I see it, here’s the thing, the crux. None of you are ratifying my freedom of choice.
You’re shouting, and screaming and insulting and demeaning, but not, not accepting.
What do you want freedom of choice on that you believe you do not already have? What ratification or acceptance do you seek?
Because, sincerely, I don't get it. I'm at a loss as to what you want any more beyond someone patting you on the head and telling you that you've been right all along. You're redefining words to fit your narrative and screaming about things that don't exist just in case they ever do which they won't.
Seriously. What do you want? What do you want us to say that we haven't said a hundred times over? Do you just want to be wrong and still win?
^Have fun going through the posting history, forumites.
Seriously. What do you want? What do you want us to say that we haven’t said a hundred times over? Do you just want to be wrong and still win?
Yes, I think that's the objective.
I dont want to tell you anything, and Ive no idea why you feel the need to force your opinion on myself and others in this thread.
These are my feelings and thoughts on this subject. Accept or deny, it makes little difference and your words are never going to change that from my perspective.
Personally I cant understand why you continually hound me to explain when you know i wont accept your point of view. I may respect it and i do, but it differs from mine and if you cant get this into your head, there's nothing further to be said.
WOW Tom, I think you have picked up the wrong end of the stick, .
6 posts into the thread, you called everyone on here that agreed with the NHS's position, that its staff must be vaccinated, fascists. Or that fascism was alive and well on STW.
You were then proud of yourself quoting, who you thought was Hitler, a made up by antovaxxers quote about the controlling of populations. You said it was the first thing you googled that fitted your view.
Your using of words like forced and mandated makes it appear that people should resist a bad thing. It's emotive language like this that hits home with people, true or not (not, in your case), that may give additional concern to someone who might go either way on getting it or not. If you think they should get it, as you have, don't say shit like the above that might discourage that.
F***Sake P7. Bringing the holocaust into this ?. thats your doing. not mine.No doubt you’d happily add that to your rebuttals, now you’ve happily included it.
There have been fascist governments throughout the world and across time. Not all of them engaged in genocide
Really? This is how this has played out so far:
You: "Employers requiring that employees are inoculated against virulent diseases that might cause harm to both themselves and those in their care, that's just fascism!"
P7: "You know what the fascists did, right?"
You: "Oh, yeah, well, I didn't mean those fascists, I meant the cuddly ones. What's wrong with you, sicko?!"
Live by the sword, dude.
*popcorn*