You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I’d also read that the true number of Covid deaths was just shy of 18k over 2 years
And I also read that the death rate is in fact much higher than reported based on number of deaths over 2 years over average. Especially so in less transparent countries.
The moment you make it mandatory, either directly or indirectly, you kill confidence.
It’s not mandatory.
It’s not mandatory.
I know. But thanks for reiterating the point.
There are place in the world where it is and i guess some people are worried that if it could happen there it could happen here. There is also the problem that whilst not mandatory, general sentiment (as expressed on this thread for example), is very disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine.
Honestly the level of hostility and rudeness (from both sides) displayed on this thread is the thing we should be most concerned about.
And I also read that the death rate is in fact much higher than reported based on number of deaths over 2 years over average. Especially so in less transparent countries.
The ONS figure for those with Covid as a cause on a death certificate is over 174,000 I think, so higher than the "within 28 days" total that we see on the news.
The 18,000 number has been soundly and competently called out by various people, with links on this and the other thread to it.
Ignorance is bliss eh?
They have concerns.
What concerns are they?
Why don't we address those concerns rather than going "oh, alright then" and cowtowing to them? This is how we got brexit.
the most vulnerable groups (such as my sister, parents) are thankfully now vaccinated against.
The most vulnerable groups cannot be vaccinated.
Are we learning yet?
Where I live, one cannot engage with significant parts of public life if one is not vaccinated, which I am not (I’m not antivaxx but am not convinced of the need to have one
You've just answered your own question there.
Why are you so convinced of your need not to have one?
I know. But thanks for reiterating the point.
There are place in the world where it is and i guess some people are worried that if it could happen there it could happen here.
You’re welcome we’ll stop when people stop claiming it is. Well yes there is but they’re you know a different country with a poor uptake. Telling people it’s mandatory when it’s not isn’t going to help.
Honestly the level of hostility and rudeness (from both sides) displayed on this thread is the thing we should be most concerned about.
Covid's been ongoing for almost two years now, the debate around vaccination for over twelve months, and you have my apology for my rudeness but I am sick to death of having to repeat the bleeding obvious over and again.
Honestly the level of hostility and rudeness (from both sides) displayed on this thread is the thing we should be most concerned about.
I totally agree, really, but you post this (below), knowing that a contributor to this thread has lost 2 members of his family to Covid. It's one of the most deliberately nasty comments I've seen posted on this thread or the other.
– My [insert family related noun here] died of Covid
but I am sick to death of having to repeat the bleeding obvious over and again.
So don't do it - just accept that some people don't agree with you and leave it at that. I think the problem becomes most vexxed when you adopt a position of having to convince someone you're right/they're wrong (this is something I've struggled with myself and have learnt to let go of the hard way!)
i guess some people are worried that if it could happen there it could happen here.
But it isn't. It just isn't. You might as well worry about a zombie apocalypse, it's simply whataboutery.
general sentiment (as expressed on this thread for example), is very disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine.
You haven't been paying attention.
No-one is being "disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine." Questioning is good. Questioning is how we learn things. More people should be questioning.
The thing with asking questions though is that you then have to be prepared to listen to answers. When ignorance turns into wilful ignorance, that's when they're gonna get disparaged.
So don’t do it – just accept that some people don’t agree with you and leave it at that.
If their decision only affected themselves, we would. But it doesn't.
I totally agree, really, but you post this (below), knowing that a contributor to this thread has lost 2 members of his family to Covid. It’s one of the most deliberately nasty comments I’ve seen posted on this thread or the other.
WHAT?
Are you serious? Everyone on this forum has lost someone to something! I was simply making the point that a) a death from Covid is like all other deaths - tragic and deeply sadenning for those who were close to the individual and b) that you lost someone to Covid does not make your view on Covid or the vaccine any more valid than anyone else's. If you're going to take exception to even highlighting that fact that's not something I'm going to reasonably be able to anticipate!
If their decision only affected themselves, we would. But it doesn’t.
No true but then their (the anti vaxxers) counter argument to that is equally as valid and based on the same premise; you cannot know for sure that the vaccine is harmelss just like you cannot know that the lock down didn't also result in significant deaths.
... though, y'know, at the risk of drawing parallels to brexit a second time,
The anti-vax brigade and their "I'm not anti-vax but..." apologists have already come to their conclusions. Nothing we can do or say will change that. (Will it?)
Fifteen pages in. Minds changed: zero.
WHAT?
Are you serious?
Incredible lack of empathy and focus.
I'm not talking about Covid, I'm talking about twisting a knife into someone.
It's horrible, unnecessary and seemingly deliberate.
b) that you lost someone to Covid does not make your view on Covid or the vaccine any more valid than anyone else’s.
If the counter-argument is "it's just like the flu" or "I had it and I was fine" or "the real death toll is 37" or the rest of the utter bollocks being trotted out then I rather think it does.
Thought I'd take us back to the op's questions.
are we seeing a sensible approach, or a lot of political and personal feelings getting in the way of the current situation?
Yes on both sides.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> but with the lifting of restrictions and hospitalisation being down and manageable, is it really fair to punish personal choice in this manner?</span>
Yes and no in my view - if you work in the nhs (in any form), but don't trust the methods of NHS, then maybe work for someone or something that you do trust. Just my personal feelings 😄
It's almost like the anti-vaxxers want to make it mandatoy NOT to have a vaccine, with thier picketing and intimidation at schools and health centers.
What do they care if someone chooses to be vaccinated? It's no skin off thier nose?
Oh that's right, they can't cope with anyone dissagreeing with them, what was I thinking. 😉
WHAT?
Are you serious? Everyone on this forum has lost someone to something! I was simply making the point that a) a death from Covid is like all other deaths
I see that you misspelled “oh gosh, I’m sorry for your loss”.
Had you replied in such a manner, I might be more sympathetic to your viewpoint.
Unfortunately, you chose to come across as a boorish sociopath, so I ask that you avoid further forum interaction with me.
Very (very) few people do though and I suspect that includes you (as it does me) unless you actually worked on the vaccine itself?
I listen to the people who do know, though.
When Brian Cox comes on telly with facts about the universe, I don't shout at him going 'HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? WHO MADE YOU THE BOSS?', I go 'wow that's interesting, he knows more about physics than me'. Because he does.
general sentiment (as expressed on this thread for example), is very disparraging to those who question the wisdom of the vaccine.
There is disparagement on here yes, but really, if you're going to cherry pick bits and pieces in an attempt to justify your sentimental position (which really fundamentally probably is that you don't like the idea of a jab) and one that may well harm a great many people, whilst ignoring all the large body of stuff that doesn't give you the answer that you want - you can expect a hard time.
Here are a few things to think about when you next have a bored moment.
What is humanity?
What does your life mean?
What do other people's lives mean to you?
What is society?
What should society be?
What is your place in society?
What is the place of scientists in society?
What should the role of government be in society?
So don’t do it – just accept that some people don’t agree with you and leave it at that. I think the problem becomes most vexxed when you adopt a position of having to convince someone you’re right/they’re wrong (this is something I’ve struggled with myself and have learnt to let go of the hard way!)
Irony is, of course, that you've chosen to join this debate. Just to echo the thoughts from earlier, if we were talking about, I dunno, the merits of 26" vs 29", or whether Sheeran's better than Ezra, or whether urban camo gear is the schiz, then year, only an idiot would get riled. What we've got here is a global healthcare issue, from my point of view a group of people are acting in a dangerous and selfish manner, we're having the same debate over and over and over again, and you're saying either be polite or ignore them.
Nah. 🙂
just accept that some people don’t agree with you and leave it at that
But in this case, there is a wrong answer, and people are actually suffering and even dying.
A quick Google finds this:
In summary:
Vaccination requirements for all health care students
(e.g.Nursing, Midwifery, Paramedics, ODP, Physiotherapy, Occupational Therapy & Social Work
Requirements Immunity status/immunisation details Action on commencement
Tuberculosis (TB) (1) Tuberculosis (TB) Documentary evidence of BCG vaccination
Measles and Rubella Documentary evidence of 2 doses of MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) triple vaccine or Measles IgG blood test Rubella Antibody blood test
If non-immune then 2 doses of MMR vaccine will be given
Hepatitis B (2) · Documentation of vaccination history including dates of vaccination Booster doses will be given if due.
Chickenpox (varicella zoster virus)
Positive history of disease in UK or in northern hemisphere VZV IgG blood test
Uncertain history or history of Chicken Pox in Southern Hemisphere then a blood test is required. If non-immune 2 doses of VZV vaccine will be given.
Hepatitis C Antibody blood test
Hepatitis B** surface Antigen blood test
If you know that you will have a positive result to the above tests and your course requires EPP’s you should discuss with occupational health (in confidence) prior to your final choice of
course/speciality.
Routine childhood
immunisations (UK schedule)
Diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus and polio, meningitis Check that childhood immunisations are up
to date
So there are already Mandatory vaccinations for frontline healthcare workers. All they have done is add another to the list.
Really, what is the problem?
I listen to the people who do know, though.
Bingo.
Something I read a few weeks back, "if you find yourself arguing with a large body of experts in their chosen field, you're either an absolute genius, or an idiot."
The answer to "we don't know..." or "I don't understand..." is either find out and learn or, if it's beyond your abilities then listen to those who do.
Fifteen pages in. Minds changed: zero.
Could a different rhetorical style be better at helping inform people (readers and not just posters) as a step to giving them chance to change their minds?
I'm gonna postulate: no.
I’m gonna postulate
is that what no tan lines is doing?
Could a different rhetorical style be better at helping inform people (readers and not just posters) as a step to giving them chance to change their minds?
Pondo is correct. However, lets try.
Anyone who has posted here who is as yet unvaccinated: what would it take to change your minds?
Anyone who has posted here who is hesitant: what are your concerns and what would it take to reassure you?
Anyone who has posted here who is as yet unvaccinated: what would it take to change your minds?
I'm utterly pro vaccines and anything which encourages their uptake, but this kind of challenge makes me want to argue back. I'd suggest dialling down a notch or two and have a read of the New Statesman piece I linked. As I say, I don't agree with this line either but it offers a more productive take on the situation than "this is right, everything else is wrong". Actually may as well just quote:
Vaccine uptake among doctors is at least 90 per cent. Some of the unvaccinated may be exempt, but that still means as many as one in ten scientifically literate medics have not yet taken up immunisation. We don’t know the full reasons why Steve James doesn’t want to be vaccinated; but we can be sure that his reasons will feel entirely rational and compelling to him – and that will be true for every other vaccine-hesitant person. They won’t be explicable in terms of the scientific evidence as currently understood, but that isn’t the point. Humans often incorporate rationality into their decision-making but there are always other influences that, at certain times, create countervailing forces that weaken or even overturn rationality entirely.
So correct bollocks and untruth absolutely, but there's just no point winding folks up to try to make them agree with you.
Those who are pro-vaccination can be just as partial as James was with the scientific evidence. While immunisation does reduce the chance of healthcare workers transmitting Covid to patients, it is only a modest effect. Vaccination does not dispense with the need for the full range of infection-control measures.
Of course, patients should expect to have the risks of acquiring Covid in a healthcare facility minimised. Equally, though, the government is willing to make trade-offs here when it suits. In general practice we have experienced huge political pressure to increase face-to-face consultations, driving up Covid transmission between patients in our waiting rooms. And now self-isolation conditions are being pared back for staff with a proven infection, meaning some will inevitably bring Covid into work when they return.
In such equivocal circumstances, it generates huge ill-feeling when a government compels individuals to be jabbed against strongly held beliefs, or deprives them of their careers should they refuse.
That's probably enough. I've italicised what I think are a couple of key points [whoops - which is never going to work with quotes 🙂 ]. And now in an attempt to take my own advice I'm going to leave it...
Vaccine uptake among doctors is at least 90 per cent. Some of the unvaccinated may be exempt, but that still means as many as one in ten scientifically literate medics have not yet taken up immunisation.
“As many as one in ten”, should read “at most one in ten”, surely. And more likely “far fewer than one in ten”, as he has made it clear that it is fewer than 10% who haven’t been vaccinated even when you count those who couldn’t be, rather than have chosen not to be.
Anyone who has posted here who is as yet unvaccinated: what would it take to change your minds?
This lady's not for turning.
This lady’s not for turning.
Question not answered.
“As many as one in ten”, should read “at most one in ten”
Phrased like that because I think he's surprised that any of his colleagues are unvaccinated and musing on this, as in "blimey it's as many as that!" 5% would sound high to me.
As many as one in ten”, should read “at most one in ten”, surely. And more likely “far fewer than one in ten”,
Yeah that makes no sense but then again there is no retort Dr James’ claims of he doesn’t need one as he caught covid. The article covers some good points badly.
This lady’s not for turning.
Genuine question, why not? What kind of evidence would you like to see for you to think that the Covid vaccine was as important as say the Rubela jab, or TB? Or put another way, what's the difference between the two as far as you are concerned?
Message me if you don't want to run the risk of being shouted down on here, I'm interested to learn
Phrased like that because I think he’s surprised that any of his colleagues are unvaccinated and musing on this, as in “blimey it’s as many as that!” 5% would sound high to me.
5% unvaccinated doesn’t sound crazily high to me … but 5% choosing not to be vaccinated would. There are many reasons for exemptions, not least being involved in ongoing vaccination trials (which a lot of doctors have been from the beginning). His “up to one in ten haven’t taken up the vaccine” is loaded and not backed by evidence. So he’s losing my interest quite quickly.
This lady’s not for turning.
That language makes it look like you are proud of your position. But really, pride emotion and sentiment should not be part of it.
Depends on whether you consider it a decision… or a cause.
“Pride, emotion and sentiment” will be present in everyone’s experiences during this pandemic, and the decisions they have made, and the actions they have taken.
But it shouldn't be a personal thing. If you are personally invested in a particular position you're making it hard to change that position. So if new information appears we will find it hard to change our position.
If it turns out that we've all poisoned ourselves with the vaccine and made a terrible mistake, how will you lot all feel? I'm sure there'd be a lot of denial on display for as long as possible.
If the vaccines kill 170,000+ people in the UK in two years, there will be no room for denial.
Well worth watching.
I’m utterly pro vaccines and anything which encourages their uptake, but this kind of challenge makes me want to argue back.
It wasn't meant to be a 'challenge.' It was a genuine question. If you can re-word it I'm all ears.
What would it take to reconsider?
If the answer is "nothing" then rationality has left the building and we're wasting our time even trying.
If you are personally invested in a particular position you’re making it hard to change that position. So if new information appears we will find it hard to change our position.
Precisely. But we're all guilty of it. Fundamentally, people don't like to be wrong. (Again), look at brexit: how many people changed their minds between the referendum and us actually leaving? Some, sure, but not all that many.
Well worth watching.
Why?
Has there? Where?
Here's something about it.
https://eachother.org.uk/were-do-not-resuscitate-orders-illegally-placed-on-disabled-people/
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/blanket-dnr/122280/
And i could continue referencing sources.
Don't you think thats shocking 😕
Don’t you think thats shocking
I think it's irrelevant to the topic under discussion, if that helps?
I think it’s irrelevant to the topic under discussion, if that helps?
This.
Don’t you think thats shocking
It’s terrible but nothing to with vaccine.
Why?
I only got so far as I’m making the tea. Basically it’s a video interview with a virologist discussing what they’re learnt and how they are adjusting to what they have learnt. The usual YouTube presenter trying to make it sound something it isn’t.
scientifically literate medics
I've suggested before that medically literate ≠ scientifically literate. Practising medics seldom make use of the scientific method.
Cougar asked me to provide evidence on this subject, so i have.
Whether you agree with what its to do with is irrelevant. The address it to cougar and for him to see that in the context of the original question, the answer is there WOO HOO Cougar. He just chose to answer with a query rather than go look for himself.
Clearly he hasn't got time to take off from constructing witty answers. So I've added the links for him to see.
But thanks to Drac, Pondo and monkeyboyjc for their input all the same.
Righto, you three can get back to whatever it was you were discussing. I'm sure your point there would have been valid, I mean it is your point of view, so it must be.
Im sure that there are many decisions that have been, medical, political, by other professional or public body's during the course of the last 2urs that are shocking, disturbing and should be investigated. I'm glad that the report has highlighted this issue and it should be investigated thoroughly. But I can't see a correlation between anything mentioned in the article with anything discussed in this thread?
There you go I, expanded my flippant ditto. Apologies.
Oh for gods sake, dont apologize 😆 What happens in the anti vaxx thread stays in the anti vaxx thread if you know what I mean. Nothing here should be taken that seriously where any of us go into huff mode. I've learned this lesson well from posting in STW.
Always good to have a shouty match where nothing really comes of it and its not like the pub where before you know it fists are flying. blow off some steam, what the absolute hell eh ?.
👍👍
I think we are all of the mind that this thread will continue going around in circles until we eventually rub a small hole into the internet and create a void that only an ebikes could escape from.
As some one said on the last page "XXpages in and not a single mind changed." 😄😄 But the fun is in the trying.
The video I posted highlights that if your main reason for a strong pro-vaccine argument is to protect those that cannot be vaccinated, that argument is negated by the fact that being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from passing it on. There’s no moral high ground to having the vaccine, only personal protection.
I’ve suggested before that medically literate ≠ scientifically literate. Practising medics seldom make use of the scientific method.
The medical profession are trying hard to move to " evidence based practice" but an awful lot of " we do it this way because thats the way its always been done still exists" but a lot less than it used to be
On a general level evidence based practice is there but on an individual level understanding scientific method is often absent.
For a bunch of vaccinated, pro-vaccine people, there aren't half a load of tired old anti-vax tropes in circulation here. 🙂
The video I posted highlights that if your main reason for a strong pro-vaccine argument is to protect those that cannot be vaccinated, that argument is negated by the fact that being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from passing it on.
Doesn't stop it - DOES cut the risk of transmission, with the added bonus of also making serious symptoms much less likely, therefore also freeing up hospital resource for the unvaccinated.
There’s no moral high ground to having the vaccine, only personal protection.
Well except that if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to get ill and need hospital treatment, therefore freeing up resources for others.
I'm vaccinated so your family can be treated for their health issues.
You're welcome!
vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from passing it on
No - but it reduces transmission. Well known and well proven so your argument is pure pish. Like the rest of your arguement based on a lack of understanding GIGO
( sorry - been at the vino)
Nothing here should be taken that seriously where any of us go into huff mode.
Well, there’s the thing, this touches lives in serious ways. Your choice of game is odd.
Fundamentally, people don’t like to be wrong
I wonder if this is true and to what degree? Anecdotally I’m most usually happy to be wrong because there is an opportunity to learn. Without being ‘wrong’ how can that opportunity ever arise? Maybe I’m broken, or maybe it isn’t so ‘fundamental’? For whatever reason I’ve a fair few friends who are engineers (and a fair few who are artists and/or teachers) and the pattern I’ve noticed is that the engineers tend to enjoy being wrong, while teachers not so much, and the artists kind of differ either way or else just waive away! Noticed I’m atypical in my family, they mostly despise being wrong. I think that I understand their reasoning ? ie (insecurity, fear of seeming ‘small’ or ‘less knowledgeable’, ego-bruised etc, but I don’t ‘get it’ as such motives seem so senseless and petty/actually ‘small’? People who are open to learning are much more attractive (as people) to me. So I don’t really understand what must be attractive to people who are closed to it?
Sorry for diversion, but this really smashes my brain, especially in these times of mass dis/misinformation/fake shite and partisan posturing. It’s all a bit too much like a Donald ‘doubledown’ Trump vibe for my liking 😬
No – but it reduces transmission. Well known and well proven so your argument is pure pish
Yup, I came out with that one too and was corrected. So (unlike cougar 😉 ) I went off to research that point and found i was mistaken.
So (unlike cougar 😉 ) I went off to research that point and found i was mistaken.
What do you think Cougar's mistaken about?
A lot of folk double down when proved to be in the wrong - a main component of road rage IMo. Call someone out for bad driving and they launch into attack mode because they know they are in the wrong
No – but it reduces transmission.
How people don't know this rattles my brain..... And really just sums up the whole debacle for me.
“Vaccines save lives, reduce severe cases but are less effective against contamination” Cyrrile Cohen, the guy from your vid. Not ineffective but less which is obviously more effective than not doing anything.
As explained above there’s a moral high ground from being vaccinated if you are able to.
You guys still talking about this?
Covid's over.
What do you think Cougar’s mistaken about?
I didn't say he was mistaken about anything :?. I made a quip about not looking for the easy to get research in the DNR story i posted earlier (on page 14)
I said I was mistaken about transmittab...transmitab...transmission rates.
You guys still talking about this?
Have you seen tonights TV 😯 there was a break from arguing yesterday when Boba Fett was on. But we're back to it now 😀
Covid’s over.
Who for? https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom
And i could continue referencing sources.
Don’t you think thats shocking
Leaving aside it's nothing to do with vaccines, I'm not sure what point you think you're proving - hospitals had flagged up that they were receiving potentially illegal DNR notices, that the government and health bodies all said was contrary to the guidance issued. I'm not seeing any government plot in the evidence you have presented.
How people don’t know this rattles my brain….. And really just sums up the whole debacle for me.
They do not want to see or understand anything that discredits their position
while I am anti vaccine mandates I do not try to bolster my position with fake science and I will accept what those with expertise tell me. I know enough to sift out the nonsense
@monkeyboyjc:
Who for?> https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom
The vaccinated. That's who for.
1) Sure, the anti-vaxxers are still dying in their droves. That's their stupid choice.
2) Unfortunately those with co-morbidities are dying still. There's nowt we can do about that.
3) Really unfortunately, the immuno suppressed are shit scared. Again, there's nowt we can do about that.
Covid is OVER. As over as it's ever going to be. Vaccination was the END-GAME.
Well, everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, and been offered a booster. These people are protected as science can make them.
Aside from eradicating the virus - which we can't/won't do (pick one) - there is literally *nothing* else that can be done now.
So Covid is over. Time to crack on with life and stop talking about it.
The vaccinated. That’s who for.
Really unfortunately, the immuno suppressed are shit scared. Again, there’s nowt we can do about that.
Great - I'll shoot my wife now and be done with it then...?
Covid is OVER. As over as it’s ever going to be. Vaccination was the END-GAME
You know that it's a global pandemic? It's not just about UK vaccinations and we live in a global society?
The end game will more than likely take a few more years yet, even with high levels of vaccination and natural suppression / herd immunity.
Thing is we live in a society, that generally, cares about other people. If we all just say, f'it, Covids over - I'm covered! that 177k death rate will, even with vaccination, sky rocket.
Like the rest of your arguement
What rest of the argument?
As for reducing transmnission, that may be generally true for vaccines, but in the case of Covid it is not yet known either way (though we do know for sure that it does not stop it).
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-transmission-idUSKBN29N1UH
So your argument is the one that is pure pish my friend.
@monkeyboyjc:
Great – I’ll shoot my wife now and be done with it then…?
Sorry your wife is immunocompromised. I really am. I have friends in the same position.
You don't want to hear it - but this is the truth - covid the disease is going nowhere. Your wife's been dealt a shit hand. We're not going to eradicate covid. Vaccinated and whatever medical interventions the health service is bringing to to the party is the best that can be done now.
But covid HAS to be over. Because the vast majority of people cannot - will not - spend the rest of their lives living in fear of it.
And, regardless of whether you agree with these facts (for facts they are) - we're stopping wearing masks, schools are going back, people are going to sporting events, life is returning to normal. This is because - as far as Blighty is concerned - vaccines were the End Game.
I'm sorry for your continued fear. I genuinely am. But there's nothing anybody else can do now.
Edit:
You know that it’s a global pandemic? It’s not just about UK vaccinations and we live in a global society?
Yep. We should be giving our vaccines to other countries now.
Covid, in blighty, is over though. Life is returning to normal. As it should.
Really unfortunately, the immuno suppressed are shit scared. Again, there’s nowt we can do about that.
Actually there is . Get vaccinated, wear masks, observe distancing, ventilate indoor areas. simple measures that reduce transmission without causing any real detriment
Covid, in blighty, is over though. Life is returning to normal. As it should.
Only in england and only because Johnson is pandering to his hard right back benches. basic anti transmission measures offer significant protection to the vulnerable. Stop being such a selfish clown. Your freedom to not comply with simple measures does not outweigh the right of the vulnerable to not die
You are a selfish idiot
Stop doubling down on bullshine.
How many people do yo want to kill so you do not have to take basic simple measures to stop killing people. thats the reality. Blood on your hands.
Josh Rogan content. (sorry)
https://www.bitchute.com/video/RbEtHaVCeNYs/
this Dr Muler chap...
seems to be qualified but has repeatedly been attacked, appears to raise some good points.
what is his angle and why is he being silenced on MSM?
@jude
The headline's written as if it is against the reduced transmission theory, but the actual fact being checked is that it doesn't, that claim being made in a FB post that says as a result the vaccinated are effectively becoming silent spreaders.
You're right there's not conclusive evidence, but the article says
"Meanwhile, there is currently no conclusive evidence to claim the COVID-19 vaccine stops people spreading the virus that causes the disease – nor is there for the opposite. Early findings from Oxford/AstraZeneca revealed its vaccine could have some effect on transmitting the virus (here), while similar results have also been reported by Pfizer/BioNTech (here).
There's a difference between inconclusive (or even not proved) and disproved. You can't dismiss a theory based on early findings as "pure pish" - at least not yet.