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Way too simplistic. Particularly when age is put into the mix.
Ok lets bring age in.
even with its bloodthirsty tabloid press, none of them went after this story.
Oh they did especially the gutter press.
Ok lets bring age in
Fair enough.
However, that's not the current situation. That's the peak of the 2nd wave. We are not seeing numbers like that now.
I'm over 50, I'm double jabbed.
If I wasn't jabbed and a healthy 30 year old, would I get it to protect against Omicron now? I'm not so sure. I would certainly wait until we get into March and see what the numbers are doing.
However, that’s not the current situation. That’s the peak of the 2nd wave. We are not seeing numbers like that now.
I wonder why we are not seeing numbers like that now following over a 100m vaccinations but only around 5 confirmed deaths from a vaccine.
I wonder why we are not seeing numbers like that now following over a 100m vaccinations but only around 5 confirmed deaths from a vaccine.
8 deaths from 13.5m az doses in Australia, from 166 TTS cases. That’s only until the end of November though
What’s interesting is that it wasn’t (I don’t think, correct me if I’m wrong) over-reported in the UK…… even with its bloodthirsty tabloid press, none of them went after this story with any of their usual disregard of the actual facts
In the UK in times of genuine national crisis (or even made up one's like WMDs in Iraq) I think there is an extent to which the government can exert pressure to get the press to tow the line on certain issues, and avoid a situation where
basically everyone refused to have it
I could be wrong but it seems that way. Maybe that's a bit conspiratorial thinking though. The government had certainly bet the house on their vaccine strategy working...
What’s interesting is that it wasn’t (I don’t think, correct me if I’m wrong) over-reported in the UK…… even with its bloodthirsty tabloid press, none of them went after this story with any of their usual disregard of the actual facts
The Press certainly reported, especially when others countries were being more cautious.
And the kind if rational risk discussion that Drac has shared hot buried in the noise.
And that's when the anti-vaxxers on social media really filled the void.
8 deaths from 13.5m az doses in Australia, from 166 TTS cases. That’s only until the end of November though
Still tiny.
to understand the mindset - how many people on this thread have had the flu jab, or had it pre-pandemic?
Vaccinated for flu means you're less likely to get and spread it, and less likely to put pressure on the NHS - standard 'winter pressures' for sure that the system just about copes with with a few tens of thousands dying of flu.
But pre-pandemic I could never be arsed getting the vaccine. I'd never had flu as far as I know, there's the hassle of going and getting jabbed, sore arm, possibly feeling rough for something which might not protect that much anyway. All of which makes me a slightly bad person I know and I am now getting flu jabs too fwiw. But it's not that different is it?
(If I've a point it's to try to avoid 'othering' folks who've gone down this very wrong road with cov vax.)
I appreciate there is a difference between the anti-vax and the anti-this-vax, but i don’t really understand it.
I do, social media.
If facebook and twitter existed in the 1960's I'm sure that there would have been a hardcore of measles anti vaxxers too, happily spreading misinformation about how dangerous these "untested" vaccines were.
to understand the mindset – how many people on this thread have had the flu jab, or had it pre-pandemic?
Me I have done for about 18 years or more. Then again I’m entitled to have one, flu vaccines aren’t as open to all like covid but it has been opened up. School kids have been able to have them around 4 years now for example.
If facebook and twitter existed in the 1960’s I’m sure that there would have been a hardcore of measles anti vaxxers too, happily spreading misinformation about how dangerous these “untested” vaccines were.
You don’t need to go that far back. It’s still a very much a thing.
A few points:
Antivaxxer is an umbrella term for anyone who questions the official covid narrative.
Antivaxxers are now scapegoates for the ongoing restrictions which are no longer tenable.
The 'lock them in their houses' mentality undermines the very model of society from which it is given.
I refuse mandated healthcare and will not comply.
Antivaxxer is an umbrella term for anyone who questions the official covid narrative.
No it's not. You can question the official narrative (your word). That's absolutely sensible to do that. If you question it, go away and look at some facts, that's fine. I'm pretty sure most people will come to a sensible conclusion.
If, however, you 'question' the narrative and instead of reading proper facts, you refer to Facebook and Youtube and then come to bonkers conclusion that the pandemic is a) made-up b) less serious than stated, c) a plan by Bill Gates / Soros / Baby-eating Hilary Clinton, d) something about 5G <delete as appropriate> then you're probably an anti-vaxxer.
Antivaxxers are now scapegoates for the ongoing restrictions which are no longer tenable.
I don't think they are? Do you feel like a Scapegoat? Do you feel as though the vast majority of the other people in the country would quite like you get a vaccine, so pose less risk to them / their family? Maybe that's what you're confusing with Scapegoating. P.S. did you ever consider that the majority of this country might have a point?
I refuse mandated healthcare and will not comply.
Vaccines aren't mandated?
I refuse mandated healthcare and will not comply.
And you accept the consequences of that decision?
In an insurance-driven healthcare system, one could imagine that cover for COVID19 treatment might be an exclusion for unvaccinated, for example. It's already an exclusion on my insurance (probably as they feared getting swamped with claims).
I refuse mandated healthcare and will not comply.
Vaccines aren’t mandated?
Isnt that the proposal ?.
Where does mandated healthcare take us, to what end.
Forced sterilization of the disabled. DNR on everyone over 90 ?.
Why would anyone not be out on the streets shouting at the government that these are fascist principles.
Do we get another “Hitler quote” to back up your nonsensical slippery slope claims?
Isnt that the proposal ?.
No.
Antivaxxer is an umbrella term for anyone who questions the official covid narrative.
It’s not. You can question the official narrative, I do and not be anti-vax.
You can’t make ridiculous reasons for not having the vaccine based on ludicrous claims. That makes you anti-vax.
Isnt that the proposal ?.
Only in your head.
Where does mandated healthcare take us, to what end.
Aesop's Fables?
I refuse mandated healthcare and will not comply.
Out of interest, what would be your response if you were told that everyone else could have it except you? Would you be kicking off and clamouring to get it?
Because if not then your "I'm not having it because I'm not being told what to do by The Man" argument collapses.
Because if not then your “I’m not having it because I’m not being told what to do by The Man” argument collapses.
Are antivaxxers just middle-aged edgelords?
Antivaxxer is an umbrella term for anyone who questions the official covid narrative.
Im not anti-vax by any measure, but I have to agree with the above. Society (outside the UK even moreso) has been divided along the lines of pro and anti-vax without the nuance of the fact that the greater bulk of people will sit just either side of the dividing line, and so their views probably have more in common than they do apart.
Thats social media (and I include mainstream media's clickbait approach to reporting) these days.
Do we get another “Hitler quote” to back up your nonsensical slippery slope claims?
No idea. might come up with something later on.
I'll make sure to keep you informed. Maybe send a personal notification, that way you can ignore the obvious debate on the subject and just come out with more sarcastic nonsense.
Oh, you trying to link the vaccine rollout to forced sterilisation, do not resuscitate orders, and fascism, is “debate” is it?
I've always thought that if COVID was just a leetle bit more deadly to average man in the street. Not ebola levels of danger but some-way between, I reckon there wouldn't be anything like the numbers of unvaccinated. My worry is when that disease comes along - and it's just a matter of time, we could be screwed.
“Even I wouldn’t make the covid vaccine compulsory and I’m Adolf Hitler FFS!” - Hitler
Im talking about forced healthcare mandates. And on that note there have been recent reports from the national autistic society on DNR orders being put on people with autism during this pandemic. Not because they are old or very infirm, but because they are autistic.
Here, just for you cos I guess you'll probably hate it.
how many people on this thread have had the flu jab, or had it pre-pandemic?
Yep I get one every year. Have done for the last 8 or so. But only because I'm offered it, it's easy to arrange for me to get and it's free. I'd still have one if I had to pay for it, as it protects me and my wife.
However if I were in a household where no one had a chronic illness I probably wouldn't as it would be lower in my priorities and awareness.
My worry is when that disease comes along – and it’s just a matter of time, we could be screwed.
If that level of pandemic arrived, the western world would collapse prior to any vaccine being produced that could any effectiveness. This is quite often the thing I bring up with customers in my shop who are inclined to believe the anti Covid/vaccine propaganda. I ask "what level of death rate would it take for you to have a vaccine, introduce new measures, find measures acceptable etc?" - there answers (imo) seem to past the point of no return.
Im talking about forced healthcare mandates.
I've got some great news for you - in that long period since we last ploughed through this shit for the millionth time, vaccines STILL aren't forced or mandated! 🙂
I’ve got some great news for you – in that long period since we last ploughed through this shit for the millionth time, vaccines STILL aren’t forced or mandated! 🙂
Depends on your view. You cannot go to certain events in Scotland, or work in the NHS after April in England. Just two examples where vaccines are mandated*. Required in order to keep your job or do something pretty 'normal' definitely qualifies as a mandate I would say.
* I appreciate there will be a degree of redeployment happening, but I think the principle still applies.
My worry is when that disease comes along – and it’s just a matter of time, we could be screwed.
You mean when SARS-COV-1 recombines with SARS-CoV-2. If omicron was as pathogenic as SARS-CoV-1 and equally spreadable, we would not be worrying about antivax.
Im talking about forced healthcare mandates.
They’re not.
You cannot go to certain events in Scotland,
Errr! Yes you can.
vaccines STILL aren’t forced or mandated!
Correct, and for the millionth time
So how why then are thousands of nhs care workers marching through the streets shouting and holding up placards proclaiming NO MANDATES.
Why then is the government considering introducing such and sacking tens of thousands of workers.
.
What will you say if that does happen.
So how why then are thousands of nhs care workers marching through the streets shouting and holding up placards proclaiming NO MANDATES.
I’ve got to wonder how many of those marching were actual NHS staff. Anyway possible because they don’t understand either, I mean after all some of them aren’t being vaccinated because they claim it’s experimental.
For me, it's the why this has been dealt with. Constant lies and fear mongering news channels. Sure, Covid isn't pleasant, but rather that report on alleged deaths why not report the recovery rates? I use the word alleged because even Sajid has said that the death numbers were skewed. I'd also read that the true number of Covid deaths was just shy of 18k over 2 years (or whatever it is now!).
Remember, this was '3 weeks to flatten the curve', now we're considering mandating a 'vaccine' that has limited efficacy for a limited amount of time and threatening people that their livelihoods will be removed for not having an injection that may or may not work....all that for a virus that has a survival rate of 99.x% and where the average age of death is 82!! Does that not honestly not seem to be a little bit suspicious to you?
The best seller on Amazon at the moment is a book called The Real Anthony Fauci - worth reading if you have a glimmer of suspicion about how this Covid flu has been handled.
Another book to read is The State of Fear by Laura Dodsworth. Did you know the government PAID (and continue to do so) a team of behavioural psychologists called the BIT to come up with strategies to push fear (propaganda essentially) to the UK citizens via misinformation, staged photographs and completely fictitious stories?
Various users on here are keen to use the phrase 'choices have consequence' towards people who aren't having this particular vaccine, well theres do too. You start going down the mandated vaccine route and where does that end? You lose control over your body to a dubious government with dubious advisors - its a recipe for disaster. 99% of people on here wouldn't do anything malicious with that power, but there are people out there that would.
People have become addicted to Covid - so so sad.
Errr! Yes you can.
I must be reading it wrong then, because as far as I can see if I want to just rock up to an event of 1000 people or more I need to be triple jabbed (I am, not a problem for me but for others). You can get a test result, but that needs to be planned in advance of course. So if the event was on today for example - I cant go unless triple vaxxed.
@Drac - so you're saying that those 'NHS workers' could be stooges? That sounds like conspiracy talk, but on the flip side! 😀
that way you can ignore the obvious debate on the subject and just come out with more sarcastic nonsense.
To be fair to him, you started it.
there have been recent reports from the national autistic society on DNR orders being put on people with autism during this pandemic. Not because they are old or very infirm, but because they are autistic.
Has there? Where?
So how why then are thousands of nhs care workers marching through the streets shouting and holding up placards proclaiming NO MANDATES.
Probably for the same reason they're refusing vaccination in the middle of a global pandemic.
The best seller on Amazon at the moment is a book called The Real Anthony Fauci
Funny Amazon has it as
Pinch of Nom Comfort Food: 100 Slimming, Satisfying Recipe, probably with reading if you’re a lardarse though. It doesn’t appear in Amazon us top ten either, gso I’m going to call bluff
You cannot go to certain events in Scotland, or work in the NHS after April in England. Just two examples where vaccines are mandated*.
There's a difference between mandatory and required. I need a membership card to go to the gym, that's a far cry from "mandatory gym memberships."
you’re saying that those ‘NHS workers’ could be stooges?
The report I saw ran something like "NHS workers join anti-vaxers on march" so I would presume it's a mixture.
I’d also read that the true number of Covid deaths was just shy of 18k over 2 years
What you read was wrong. Swap over to the other thread to find out why.
I’ve got to wonder how many of those marching were actual NHS staff.
Oh for God sake.
Thats it, the best you can come up with. Oh some of them might not be nhs. Well how many, out of the thousands there. And even if you ignore that silliness, the vast majority wearing their work smocks , who placed them at Downing street more than likely were.
Anyway possible because they don’t understand either
Oh they don't understand. The staff at the sharp end, the people in which service this is directed at dont understand.
Perhaps you should get on the blower and give them the lowdown.
I mean after all some of them aren’t being vaccinated because they claim it’s experimental.
I can quite believe that. They have concerns. But how many. And tbh Drac, thats another misdirection isn't it. More of a slight against those nhs front line workers in the crowd, and lamping them all together with your anti-vaxx group standardized commentary.
Any concerns they have must be ignored because in truth they're not concerned about the government passing a law that forced medical practices on them,where unless they comply, they'll lose their jobs. But are all conspiracy theorists.
Are you honestly a mod on here ??? 😯
More importantly than being a mod, he’s a front line NHS worker.
The best seller on Amazon at the moment is a book called The Real Anthony Fauci
If you take the first letters from that book title and order them in reverse it reads FART
Makes you think
Looks like you've been doing a lot of your own research there lamp.
You lose control over your body
I'm in my 50's that's happened to my bladder already.
People have become addicted to Covid – so so sad.
Trump is that you?
Covid flu
Oh dear.
Yeah, I'm being flippant I know. It's just that you are spouting off the same old stuff we've heard all through the pandemic.
Look, just say it's all about "me, me, me" and be done with it.😉
Anyway, have a good day whatever you are upto.👍 (genuine, not flippant)
You can get a test result, but that needs to be planned in advance of course. So if the event was on today for example – I cant go unless triple vaxxed.
So you just need to plan that’s hardly a mandated vaccine then.
? I use the word alleged because even Sajid has said that the death numbers were skewed. I’d also read that the true number of Covid deaths was just shy of 18k over 2 years (or whatever it is now!).
We’ve done this. He didn’t he clarified those that died with no underlying conditions, they were fit and healthy people. If I die of covid I go in the other category because I have hypertension. Constant lies you say?
Remember, this was ‘3 weeks to flatten the curve’, now we’re considering mandating a ‘vaccine’
Yes I do they were naive and reviewed it. No they’r not considering a mandated vaccine. Constant lies you say?
all that for a virus that has a survival rate of 99.x% and where the average age of death is 82!! Does that not honestly not seem to be a little bit suspicious to you?
99% depending on your health, age and vaccine status. No, old people are vulnerable to many illnesses and vaccines because they’re old and also more likely to have an underlying condition. Does that not make medical sense to you?
misinformation, staged photographs and completely fictitious stories?
Such as pictures of kids and sports people who have died claiming it was the vaccine, but when you actually bother to look many of them die years before covid let alone had the vaccine. Oh wait that’s not the government.
The best seller on Amazon at the moment is a book called The Real Anthony Fauci
A lie
so you’re saying that those ‘NHS workers’ could be stooges?
No, I asked how many marching worked in the NHS. Stop lying.
More importantly than being a mod, he’s a front line NHS worker.
So he's just trolling then ?
He's well aware of the concerns of NHS staff,and is also by that reckoning well aware of their thoughts on the matter. Well aware of government proposals.
Stands against them because he's had a vaccine and thinks everyone should do the same and if not be damned for it.
What does that say eh ?.
There’s a difference between mandatory and required. I need a membership card to go to the gym, that’s a far cry from “mandatory gym memberships.”
But it is mandatory for you to have a gym card if you are a member?
I'm afraid I'm not buying the argument its not a mandate, but if you want to change it to be called a vaccine requirement, thats fine too. Its a crazy policy IMHO whatever you want to call it.
Haha there we go again with a 'smear'. Nothing is ever about 'me, me, me' either.
Tough luck on the bladder - i feel i have a good while to go before i have to worry about buying the male version of Tena pads - when the inevitable happens, may be you can give me some advice? 😉
I'll be having a terrific day thank you as pretty much always. You too.
"And you accept the consequences of that decision?"
I argue the consequences of a mandated health system where those who do not submit are actively excluded from society are worse. Given the evidence (and you do seem to put forward evidenced-based analysis), I do not believe the benefits of excluding a small but significant minority from social life outweighs the cost of doing so, in terms of mitigating and reducing transmission of an illness in which the most vulnerable groups (such as my sister, parents) are thankfully now vaccinated against. It is disproportionate and threatens the very society it seeks to project.
Regarding me being excluded from something which everyone else is offered, well that's precisely the current system and informs my opposition to it. Where I live, one cannot engage with significant parts of public life if one is not vaccinated, which I am not (I'm not antivaxx but am not convinced of the need to have one given the reality of Omnicom and the fact I had and recovered from acute CoVid-19).
For me, it would likewise be an interesting thought experiment to apply C-19 restrictions but in a different context. How would those who support these extreme public health measures feel if such measures were enacted in order to mitigate climate change? Now it's illegal to drive your polluting vehicles, fly, eat a meat-intensive diet, etc., because that's what is necessary to stop a phenomenon which is by all accounts infinitely more threatening to human civilisation than CoVid-19.
If you do not comply with these measures, you pose a greater risk to the future of society, and therefore will be excluded from it. I sincerely doubt you would go along with this, and yet here you are, the loudest advocates of it for something which is a fleeting inconvenience by comparison.
He’s well aware of the concerns of NHS staff,and is also by that reckoning well aware of their thoughts on the matter. Well aware of government proposals.
I am yes. I’m well aware that very very few frontline staff are unverifiable in our case. Because the majority were happy to have the vaccine a year before it was even discussed about being compulsory. I’m very aware the government aren’t planning on mandating for the public, are you going to flip flop and say you now met something else?
Stands against them because he’s had a vaccine and thinks everyone should do the same and if not be damned for it.
What does that say eh ?.
That you’re lying. People can choose there very welcome to, sometime choices have a consequence. My daughter is joining the NHS she had to show more than her covid vaccine to join, I had to have the same vaccines and some after I joined. This is nothing new for NHS staff
Haha there we go again with a ‘smear’. Nothing is ever about ‘me, me, me’ either.
I was just being flippant. I don't like the government either (understatement) but that doesn't preclude me from doing the right thing through all this.
Tough luck on the bladder – i feel i have a good while to go before i have to worry about buying the male version of Tena pads – when the inevitable happens, may be you can give me some advice?
I'm going full eco friendly terry cloth nappy.👍
I’ll be having a terrific day thank you as pretty much always. You too.
Just a "meh" day here which is pretty much my norm unfortunately. Still, gives me time to post on here I guess. That may or may not be good...
Now it’s illegal to drive your polluting vehicles,
Yeah they’d never bring in emission rules and start to phase out petrol or diesel car, I bet they don’t even ban them in cities.
False news is false news, but when that is coming from a government (ie an elected body) to protect it's citizens do you think that is acceptable?
False news is false news, but when that is coming from a government (ie an elected body) to protect it’s citizens do you think that is acceptable?
Of course not that’s why the majority of the public want Boris out because of his lies abut parties.
Whilst were digesting today's anti vax misinformation
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/14/spotify-joe-rogan-podcast-open-letter
accuses controversial host Joe Rogan’s show of having a “concerning history of broadcasting misinformation, particularly regarding the Covid-19 pandemic”.
Never really got why people buy into to him so much tbh, always came across as an agenda driven roaster. Seems to be doing pretty well out of it so I'm sure itll continue.
@Drac - So lies propagated from a trusted isn't acceptable . So what about the manipulation, the lies that and societal 'nudges' that have come from the government re covid. Do you think that is acceptable?
Oh Christ, here we go again.
For me, it’s the why this has been dealt with. Constant lies and fear mongering news channels. Sure, Covid isn’t pleasant, but rather that report on alleged deaths why not report the recovery rates? I use the word alleged because even Sajid has said that the death numbers were skewed. I’d also read that the true number of Covid deaths was just shy of 18k over 2 years (or whatever it is now!).
Well, I must come from an incredibly unlucky family then - as posted before I lost my uncle in May '20 and my mum just before xmas '20 from Covid. An old school friend of mine has been in charge of an ICU in Leicester, he's been telling me about the impact that Covid has had on him and the people around him.
If you're so confident in trotting out the line that "only(!) 18,500 people have actually died from covid" then I ask you to volunteer at your nearest covid ward for a week before repeating that BS.
Remember, this was ‘3 weeks to flatten the curve’, now we’re considering mandating a ‘vaccine’ that has limited efficacy for a limited amount of time and threatening people that their livelihoods will be removed for not having an injection that may or may not work….all that for a virus that has a survival rate of 99.x% and where the average age of death is 82!! Does that not honestly not seem to be a little bit suspicious to you?
Ever spoken to a loved one over a mobile phone to say goodbye and hear them gasping for breath? No? It's not nice.
A colleague of mine is in his thirties, otherwise very healthy and physically fit but he spent most of April in an induced coma on a ventilator.
It's only an effing jab. You're not being asked to saw off your own limb or sacrifice your first born.
The best seller on Amazon at the moment is a book called The Real Anthony Fauci – worth reading if you have a glimmer of suspicion about how this Covid flu has been handled.
It's not the bestseller, it's purported to be written by Robert F Kennedy jnr, who is a complete crank. Maybe buy this, read and repeat.
Another book to read is The State of Fear by Laura Dodsworth. Did you know the government PAID (and continue to do so) a team of behavioural psychologists called the BIT to come up with strategies to push fear (propaganda essentially) to the UK citizens via misinformation, staged photographs and completely fictitious stories?
Dodsworth, who is widely regarded as a hard-right "journalist" verging on crankism. She writes opinion pieces in The Telegraph, which in any sane society should be enough to ensure that the likes of her, Allison Pearson et al are relegated to reporting on pet shows for local newspapers.
Various users on here are keen to use the phrase ‘choices have consequence’ towards people who aren’t having this particular vaccine, well theres do too. You start going down the mandated vaccine route and where does that end? You lose control over your body to a dubious government with dubious advisors – its a recipe for disaster. 99% of people on here wouldn’t do anything malicious with that power, but there are people out there that would.
"It's not about saving lives or preventing people from becoming very sick, it's about what might happen to my liberties. Meanwhile the very same media outlets who are feeding my covid-skepticism support a hard-right libertarian agenda like removing voting rights for the poor, bringing back the death penalty and the end of the welfare state in any meaningful way".
I bet that you vote Tory too.
People have become addicted to Covid – so so sad.
Covid has killed members of my family, it's lasting impact in the form of long-covid has made my friends very poorly, not to mention my aforementioned mate who works in the NHS who has been under incredible pressure. Maybe have a look at non-UK media outlets, see the impact that Covid is having in the US, Europe and elsewhere.
I realise that nothing that I've said will change your view one iota, so I ask that you try to be a better person and avoid making statements on a public forum that are crass and insensitive to anyone who has lost loved ones from this.
Oh for God sake.
Thats it, the best you can come up with. Oh some of them might not be nhs. Well how many, out of the thousands there. And even if you ignore that silliness, the vast majority wearing their work smocks , who placed them at Downing street more than likely were.
More than likely not.
https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1484876459361636358?s=20
How would those who support these extreme public health measures
A clean water act that protected citizens against cholera introduced in London in 1852 was considered radical at the time. Now it's taken as a matter of sensible public health policy (about which BTW, you have no individual say). Also as a matter of public health you've probably had some /all (depending on how old you are) of the following vaccines through out your early childhood for which your consent wasn't sought.
At eight weeks - Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis , polio, Haemophilus influenzae type b and hepatitis B Meningococcal group B Rotavirus gastroenteritis.
At twelve weeks - Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, Hib and hepatitis B Rotavirus
At sixteen weeks - Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, MenB
At One year - Hib and MenC Pneumococcal booster MMR MenB.
This is the paradox at the heart of vaccines/public health. You should be able to have a say in what goes into your body vs. As an individual, you shouldn't be allowed to veto sensible public health policy. -i.e. no one is going to ask you how clean you'd like your water...You're being asked to take a vanishingly small risk for the greater public good.
aren’t antivaxxers just middle-aged edgelords?
The conspiracies don’t stop with the vaccine, they normally radiate outwards and diversify. So all of a sudden a middle-aged edge*lord could find themselves battling against communistic pedophile Jewlizard Muslamic Democrat Libtard black gay EUrabian Envirorofacists. Which is a little more than just fighting against Nazism vaccination mandates for healthcare workers.
*Synonyms available. Not necessarily ‘rim’.
Antivaxxers are now scapegoates for the ongoing restrictions which are no longer tenable
A) I don't think anyone really cares that much IRL but it's possible I'm protecting B) what ongoing restrictions?
Various users on here are keen to use the phrase ‘choices have consequence’ towards people who aren’t having this particular vaccine
Yep *waves*
You start going down the mandated vaccine route and where does that end? You lose control over your body to a dubious government with dubious advisors – its a recipe for disaster. 99% of people on here wouldn’t do anything malicious with that power, but there are people out there that would.
It's not mandated,you don't have to have it.
Oh they don’t understand. The staff at the sharp end, the people in which service this is directed at dont understand.
A claimed 80k in an organisation of 1.3 million, isn't it?
Any concerns they have must be ignored because in truth they’re not concerned about the government passing a law that forced medical practices on them,where unless they comply, they’ll lose their jobs. But are all conspiracy theorists.
To be fair, as there's no sound reason for anyone without underlying health issues NOT to have the jab, what other reason would they have for freely choosing to lose their jobs rather than have a harmless jab?
Remember, this was ‘3 weeks to flatten the curve’
Everyone with any sense knew this was complete nonsense at the time.
More than likely not.
Very few are NHS in fact it would seem. Sad little cameo from Danny Rampling in that thread.
Everyone with any sense knew this was complete nonsense at the time.
I distinctly remember having a conversation with about 4 mums outside my shop in the first couple days of lockdown 1 - them saying kids will go back to school after Easter hols / isn't this all jolly etc. All of them middle class and we'll educated.
There were many people that believed or wanted to believe the three weeks to flatten the curve propaganda at the time, the alternative was just too worrying for some people.
So lies propagated from a trusted isn’t acceptable . So what about the manipulation, the lies that and societal ‘nudges’ that have come from the government re covid. Do you think that is acceptable?
I’m sorry what does that even mean?
People have become addicted to Covid – so so sad.
Actually it's my day job. I just comment here.
As for mandated mass public health interventions, one presumes there is a strong correlation with opposition to water treatment, notably fluoridation, (or perhaps even disinfection?). This may be a shock, but agencies do act in the public interest on the basis of evidence.
The ULEZ charge is an economic push to change behaviours for public health. I can choose to drive in the city, but it will currently cost me to do so. Removal of gainful front-line NHS employment without vaccination is the same. I can choose to be vaccinated, or seek other employ. I suspect of the 80k who have not been vaccinated, the number who would rather change jobs is a small fraction of that number. So be it.
and societal ‘nudges’ that have come from the government re covid. Do you think that is acceptable?
This is the same unit that nudge you into thinking about not drinking too much, eating your 5 a day or think about quitting smoking, right?
What's the difference?
^^Blimey, he hasn't aged well has he?
For me, it would likewise be an interesting thought experiment to apply C-19 restrictions but in a different context.
We had massive restrictions in what we could do, to save lives and protect health services. These were eased after we started vaccinating people. The vaccine has removed most of the restrictions. Therefore if you want to not have restrictions you need the vaccine, maybe?
The thing is we all live in a society. That society needs rules so it can function. If you don't want to join in then fine, go and live in a hut on your own in the deep forest. If you do want to join in by traveling about, going to concerts i'r whatever, then you need to follow the rules no?
I can't help but think that this thread and the much wider debate in general would be better served if the following phrases were banned wholesale across the country:
- XXXXX people have died of/with Covid
- I had it and I recovered from it without issue
- Any references that include the words 'cold' and 'flu'
If we did this, we might have a more balanced and insightful debate. As it is, the only thing this thread/debate is really debating is your relative level of agreeableness/neuroticism.
"Forced" needs to be on that list
It’d be a lot easier if anti-vaxxers just turned around and said “sorry, I don’t quite follow the science, can you explain it a bit better to me”. It’s ok not to understand it, I don’t understand quantum mechanics but I’m not going to start saying that it’s made up lies from the government.
The bile they spout just tells us that they’re not as intelligent as they think they are.
“Forced” needs to be on that list
I asgree but we do need to keep the word 'coerced' and 'marginalised' in for fullness of debate. I agree that no one is being 'forced' but it's a subtle difference between force and coercion and that is a very important debate.
It’d be a lot easier if anti-vaxxers just turned around and said “sorry, I don’t quite follow the science,
Very (very) few people do though and I suspect that includes you (as it does me) unless you actually worked on the vaccine itself? This is where the problem lies; the ONLY successful mechanism for rolling out something that no one but those directly involved truly understands, is to make it voluntary. The moment you make it mandatory, either directly or indirectly, you kill confidence.
I've posted once on this thread using flu vaccines to illustrate that a there's a range of take up of vaccines which improve individual and public health, and it's not binary nutters vs sensibles.
I personally see no problem with requiring NHS staff who see patients to be covid vaccinated as long as services don't fall over. My experience is of senior folks who don't see many patients frankly jumping the queue to get vaccinated. But some commentators who I respect (Phil Whitaker, a GP who writes in the New Statesman) take a different view:
So I'll accept there's at least nuance. However, when I see stuff like:
I'd also read the true number of covid deaths
...this is so disingenuous. You "read" - where? But not saying where, as it would be apparent this was instantly debunked, must be deliberately repeating misinformation and deserves no sympathy at all.
the ONLY successful mechanism for rolling out something that no one but those directly involved truly understands, is to make it voluntary.
Hi, yeah - it, err, IS voluntary. But still there are angry and intimidating protests outside vaccination centres, schools and hospitals.