[Closed] Anti anti-vaxxer?

the unproven number being banded about a mere 25,000 might be frontline staff, the rest clearly dont do an important job

They do a less at-risk job. You'd suspend a builder who wouldn't wear a hard-hat, an accountant generally not so much.

No more What gloves, what shocks, what winter woollies for you.

Hot topics often generate multiple concurrent threads. There are several reasons why duplicate threads get closed.

lets just close the thread and bury out combined heads in the big bucket of sand.

lets just close the thread and discuss it on the one where we've already been discussing it for months.

Actually, I think I'd agree with that. Clearly this is an emotive subject for many, and as said its going around and around. Nobody is really going to change anyone's mind on this, so maybe you're right and we should just forget the whole thing.

.

I'll accept that i'm right and you're wrong, and you can accept that you're right and i'm wrong and we can all agree that we disagree.

maybe you’re right and we should just forget the whole thing.

That's not what I said.

Are you OK? You're not usually this random.

I'm fine, thanks for asking.

But don't worry, I'll be back on some other thread shouting the odds.

oh, we don't live in a free society.

if you actively choose not to get vaccinated, you don't have to. its as simple as that. you may have limited choices because of this choice, but you should be aware of this.

you don't get to huff viral particles over other people, because they choose not to let you do it.

I don't see what the problem is.

I’ll accept that i’m right and you’re wrong, and you can accept that you’re right and i’m wrong and we can all agree that we disagree.

You seem to be VERY out numbered on this though which should be telling you something.

So many terrible analogies on this thread.

I like a moral dilemma but in this instance I really don't care enough about the plight of vaccine refusers to bother reasoning it through. Windsor Davies rather neatly summed up my view: oh dear, how sad, never mind.

You seem to be VERY out numbered on this though which should be telling you something.

Sorry, but how so ?

My point is freedom of choice. Or are you saying you don't believe in such a notion.

.

I see anti vaccination protest consisting of tens of thousands of people. I read about 80,000 unvaccinated nhs staff, of varying positions, from porters and support staff through to consultants.

I have stated im pro vaccine, but my point before and of now is freedom of choice.

There are many countries and regimes around the world where there is no freedom of choice. Are you saying you would prefer to side with them.

Do you even have a view of your own, or for that matter any convictions that clash with those of others ?.

Or are you the type that bows and scrapes, Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir. I'll just go with the masses thanks, just tell me what to believe and I'll sign up a ready and willing participant.

Is this your position Kerley ?.

Can I just point out that there is in effect a vaccine passport in existence in Scotland.  AS Sturgeon pointed out its England that is the outlier

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58422607

are you the type that bows and scrapes, Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir. I’ll just go with the masses thanks, just tell me what to believe and I’ll sign up a ready and willing participant.

Im a professor of medical Biotechnology. I like science, thanks.

Good for you. That will be handy, a bit like a medical engineer ?.

Though i was addressing Kerley

So whats your standpoint on freedom of choice ?. Are you for ?,against? a bit on the fence. Medical qualifications aside.

Which is what this thread is about. Not whether the vaccine is good or bad or dangerous or rushed through or a hundred other reasons, both real or imaginary.

Do you think people should be forced to take the vaccine and be penalized in some manner should they refuse ?.

Sorry whoever mentioned timing earlier was correct. Ever since vaccines have been available, specialist cardiac anaesthetists have only been able to work if they are vaccinated. So probably about a year I guess.

My point is freedom of choice.

You have that. Just like I have the freedom to not take my driving test.

As a result of those choices, there are things those choices effects. For the unvaccinated, it’s the ability to socialise wherever they like, for me, I can’t drive a car on the highway, arguably limiting my freedom. There are some jobs I cannot apply for because I don’t have a drivers licence, and going a long distance is a pain in the arse/more expensive, but there we are.

I really don’t care enough about the plight of vaccine refusers to bother reasoning it through..Windsor Davies rather neatly summed up my view: oh dear, how sad, never mind.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf”

😉

satire is dead old chap

Less satire, more of a wind up. Still keeps 'em off the streets...

So whats your standpoint on freedom of choice

You can choose not to get vaccinated, but that choice has consequences for others that you must accept and modify your behaviour.

...Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf...

"First they came for the antivaxxers* and I did not speak out because I figured they'd brought it on themselves." Spin, Singletrackworld

*Except they haven't come for the antivaxxers, people aren't being arrested for not getting it.

What's happening here is in no way analogous to Nazi Germany.

Calling troll Tom. Oh big blooming yawn. Non existent point. Freedoms of choice is non existent. Holy Crow, thats a good one.

I'm returning quote with quote. So tell me, which has more relevance in freedom of choice. Windsor Davis, or Adolf Hitler ?.

We can use Hitler and Fascism in this you know. Or any quote we choose.

people aren’t being arrested for not getting it.

What’s happening here is in no way analogous to Nazi Germany.

Certainly less with Windsor Davis, thats for sure.

But no of course not. No arrests , no standard issue kicking in the door.

But penalties none the less. Or don't you think there are any penalties, nobody seems to want to answer that in a definitive manner.

I will just say that I think linking vaccine status to sick-pay is a terrible idea – it will inevitably result in people coming to work when they are sick, instead of being at home and self isolating.

From what I’ve seen its not if you’re sick with covid. Its if you’re isolating due to close contact, you’re not sick.

Can I just point out that there is in effect a vaccine passport in existence in Scotland.

Yeah there was/is in England but just like Scotland you didn’t need to be vaccinated.

Are you saying that no individuals action/inaction should carry a penalty (imagined or otherwise) from society, cuz fascism?

Would certainly take a lot of weight off the prison service.

Edit: forget it. Can’t get quote to work!

I think its possibly both Drac. Omicron has been shown to be less symptomatic that Delta or the original strain, so people feeling slightly off key might go in.

The driving license analogy is pretty good and you keep ignoring it.

Ignoring it ?. I hadn't realized it was an actual question directed at me alone and expecting of an answer.

Reductio ad adsurdum.

From what I’ve seen its not if you’re sick with covid. Its if you’re isolating due to close contact, you’re not sick.

This.

The front line techs at my work have no incentive to be careful or get the vaccine. If they have to isolate they get full pay and nothing on their absence record. It’s amazing how many people were off during the summer and then again around Christmas time. And some people have had multiple weeks off. Either they are lying or have so little regard about Covid that I really don’t want them working for us or being near me at all.

Unfortunately it’s also heavily unionised so if they try to change the sick pay rules I can imagine a huge furore. But it has to change for people to change their behaviour.

I think its possibly both Drac. Omicron has been shown to be less symptomatic that Delta or the original strain, so people feeling slightly off key might go in

Yes they might but that’s vaccinated or not.

Not sure if this is correct or not but I thought that the Vax was only effective for a limited time?? Therefore people will need the boosters once or twice a year to stay protected???
Anyway I had my booster just before Christmas and was talking with quite a few people about this and it seems that many if not most who were double vaxed are not intending to have a booster? And I thought I read that authorities are not planning to keep the booster program going for much longer? So In a while all double jabbed people will be outside the given lifespan of the protection.

But penalties none the less. Or don’t you think there are any penalties, nobody seems to want to answer that in a definitive manner.

You've not read anything that's been written here have you?

We've all said there are consequences/penalties. We just think that they are proportionate and balanced. You appear not to.

All of our "freedoms" have limits. Ever since King John started cancelling chunks of the Magna Carta right after he signed it. Get over it.

we still live in a free society where telling someone else what they can and can’t do with their body is a moral travesty that should be resisted at all costs.

We already tell people this. You can't be naked in public...It's your body, but others have to suffer the consequences of what you choose to do with it. As such, certain things are limited by laws and rules for the protection of society. A vaccine, demonstrated to be harmless to all and to the benefit of most is no more a burden than having to wear clothes when in public.

So In a while all double jabbed people will be outside the given lifespan of the protection.

Yeah but tbh it’ll probably end up as a yearly flu/cov combo jab later on,covids unlikely to just suddenly disappear like a bad movie plot.

As has already been said, you have freedom of choice.

This isn't the same as 'I can do whatever I want'.

Once you understand that idea, we'll have a chance.

We just think that they are proportionate and balanced. You appear not to.

For starters I like your use of the royal 'we'

But yes i have read everything and i disagree, because the basics stand. Do this or be penalized.

Personal choice isnt a factor as you see it and for whatever reason those who dont want to be vaccinated must be forced to

So why arent you dragging them out their homes by the hair and forcefully sticking a needle in their arm. Its about the only thing that 'you' haven't suggested.

Very very simple. I believe in freedom of choice and you clearly dont.

Thats fine. and because i believe in freedom of choice you are perfectly allowed in my mind to hold such an opinion, even if i disagree with it. But again you feel you should brow beat me into submission because i disagree with your standpoint.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf”

Not in Mein Kampf, not Hitler. Which just goes to show what utter claptrap you guys are being sucked into.

Yeah but tbh it’ll probably end up as a yearly flu/cov combo jab later on,covids unlikely to just suddenly disappear like a bad movie plot.

But this was my point though....that from my own conversations with quite a few people from all sorts of backgrounds it appeared that many were not planning on getting the booster..and anyway I thought the flu jab was only really offered to over 50,s. People weren't (to my knowledge) penalised for not getting a flu jab....were they??

from my own conversations with quite a few people from all sorts of backgrounds it appeared that many were not planning on getting the booste

Pretty much everyone I know who has been vaccinated had their booster.

anyway I thought the flu jab was only really offered to over 50,s

No, it’s open to many. Including school children.

Anyway this thread is getting too close to the other and the OP strangely hasn’t replied since posting.

Very very simple. I believe in freedom of choice and you clearly dont.

Do you think there'll be a number of times that you can be reminded that we have freedom of choice where it'll actually ****ing sink in?

Anyway I had my booster just before Christmas and was talking with quite a few people about this and it seems that many if not most who were double vaxed are not intending to have a booster?

The people you were talking to are clearly statistical outliers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

Go to any area of the UK you choose and look at the percentage double vaxxed and the percentage boosted. Yes, the boosted number is smaller than the double vaxxed number but it is very clear that the boosted number is the vast majority of the double vaxxed number. When you take away the the fact that the vaccine has been rolled down into children but they are still months away from the booster being possible (therefore not being able to appear on the boosted list and generating a gap between the two numbers) it really is a staggeringly good conversion rate from double to boosted.

So why arent you dragging them out their homes by the hair and forcefully sticking a needle in their arm. Its about the only thing that ‘you’ haven’t suggested.

That's quite a leap you've made in your head there. You might want to get it looked at.

Very very simple. I believe in freedom of choice and you clearly dont.

You don’t understand how freedom of choice works as part of wider society. Despite many peoples best efforts here

A vaccine, demonstrated to be harmless to all

Aye ok then 🙄

Mass vaccination as a plank of any public health policy is clearly a “public good” and yet at the same time relies on individuals agreeing to a medical procedure to which they ought to have a right of refusal.

that’s the contradiction at the heart of all these arguments.

For me,  there is no individual without society.

Not in Mein Kampf, not Hitler. Which just goes to show what utter claptrap you guys are being sucked into.

You guys ?? which guys do you refer ?

Actually i was looking for a fascism quote and googled that, thats the first one that came up and appeared to fit.

thanks for pointing it out, i'd have missed it otherwise.

But im sure there's something else that fits just as well in the argument of freedom of choice as opposed people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.

Do you think there’ll be a number of times that you can be reminded that we have freedom of choice where it’ll actually **** sink in?

CHRIST IN A HANDCART. HOW ARE YOU SO UTTERLY DEVOID OF LOGIC. UNREAL.

So again.

This isnt about being made to wear a seatbelt. or having a car license. This is about being forced to take a drug that has been shown to have an adverse effect on some of the people taking it, without any inkling of whether they will be fine or not.

There have(According to UK gov figure) - 1645 directly attributed to having the covid vaccine.

Because of that, and yes im in agreement that number is very small compared to the number who didnt develop fatal symptoms, SOME PEOPLE ARE SCARED TO TAKE THE RISK.

Your standpoint is that we have freedom of choice, but those people should be made to take it. and if they dont they shall be financially penalized, but retain freedom of choice.

I believe in freedom of choice but that appears to be at odds with your understanding of what freedom of choice actually means.

But im sure there’s something else that fits just as well in the argument of freedom of choice as opposed people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.

Which, as has been stated numerous times before, they are not.

Besides, we still live in a free society

People keep coming out with this cold war slogan as an excuse to do whatever they want, but they really don't understand what it means.

All countries have restrictions on what you can and can't do. They are called laws. Sure, you might not like some of them, but tough. You are protected by them as well as limited. I am not allowed to drive down the motorway at 150mph, however much I'd like to, because it's a risk to others. This means that if I am driving around at the speed limit some other time I am hopefully protected against being hit by someone else doing 150mph.

Most people are perfectly happy with this concept. Vaccination is no different. You take the vaccine to help protect everyone. In fact, if you are unvaccinated now there's a good chance you have already been saved illness or even death by somoene else's selfless actions. Now do you feel like a dick?

people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.

Not sure how 'profound' the anti-vax stance can actually be tbh.

Personally, as a fully vaccinated person (and therefore protected against covid as I can possibly be) I'd like all those who think forcing and coercing people to get vaccines is an acceptable action to get in the sea and drown.

Voluntarily, of course, I won't coerce you, but please do.

Like brexiteers and racism, the desire to kick poor deluded anti-vaxxers (even though you, like me, are as safe as can be post-vaccination) goes hand in hand with being a facist little a-hole in lots of areas of your life.

So the best solution, completely voluntarily of course - I wouldn't dream of coercing you - would be if you all walked, en masse, off the end of a pier.

🙂

It can be "profound" without being sensible

Most of this stuff is about balance - the cost / benefit ratio ( cost not just financial) and risk / reward.  For example like all vaccines it has side effects.  However like all vaccines it saves lives.

its about where you personally draw the line.  I am quite content to have restrictions on unvaccinated and public spaces and private events.  Choose not to have a vaccine and you choose not to be able to go to nightclubs and football matches.  seems proportionate and reasonable to me

i am much more troubled about making it a condition of employment on both a pragmatic and moral level.  Others have a different view

To think this on either side is a simple black / white question is daft.  Its nuanced and multifactorial and it depends on how you personally view the different factors involved and the weight you apply to them

So now C-19 is endemic and is likely to be part of the group of annual winter respiratory virus that kill a few thousand most years, are we going to treat it differently?

Should we be testing when we get a cold in case it's C-19?

Are you going to get regular boosters?

What if you have to pay for them? Didn't Superdrug start selling the flu jab a few years ago?

All genuine questions, I am interested in opinions on what we do in the medium to long term?

Just to add to my post above: don't get me wrong - I'd love to kick anti-vaxxers. I hate stupid, deluded and poorly-educated people as much as the next man.

But then I remember that we're all stupid and deluded in some ways, that I'm as safe as can be because I've had the vaccine - so the risk is actually to *them* - and that actually kicking these people makes me a little hitler, using a form of violence (for plunging someone into jobless poverty because you don't like their decision is indeed an act of violence - and a cowardly one because they can't punch you back) because you don't like someone else's decision about what they want to allow into their own body.

Even though you're as safe as can be...

This is a troll right?

Personal freedom versus rules is not exactly a heavy mental lift.

I’d like all those who think forcing and coercing people to get vaccines is an acceptable action to get in the sea and drown.

I don't really care, we are at the stage where enough people have done the right thing that the stubborn minority matter less and less. So don't get vaxxed, that's your choice just STFU about it and accept the consequences.

I find it interesting that many of the people claiming that putting some conditions on what un- vaxxed people can do is fascist are apparently absolutely fine with actual fascism. So, freedom fighters of this thread, I really hope you are putting as much energy into fighting the Police Bill, the Immigration bill, and the boundary changes as you are into protesting that you can't go to a nightclub.

I hate stupid, deluded and poorly-educated people as much as the next man.

Bit harsh that mind.

Your standpoint is that we have freedom of choice, but those people should be made to take it. and if they dont they shall be financially penalized, but retain freedom of choice.

Well ok, clearly we haven't reached comprehension point just yet. Let's try again - no-one is being made to take it.

so the risk is actually to *them*

Its not just to them - they are an increased vector for infection and also create  reservoir of infection plus they will take up resources in healthcare in short supply.  Unvaccinated people create risk for all which is why restrictions on them are proportionate

The real debate is how far should those restrictions go and what can be done to mitigate the secondary effects of those restrictions

But im sure there’s something else that fits just as well in the argument of freedom of choice as opposed people being forced to comply with something they profoundly disagree with.

I'm sure there is another quote. Isn't the point that you shouldn't just buy the first thing that turns up on a Google search though?

I don't agree with mandated vaccines. I do subscribe to the view that there are consequences for actions and inactions. There is choice. There is freedom.

I would like to know why people "profoundly disagree" with vaccination, I suspect it's just their opinion, to which they are entitled, and they have done their own research (first hit on google that matches my thought) etc etc. I have heard some doozies; microchips, New World Order, mind control, movement tracking, the great reset, untested vaccines, messes with DNA, 100,000s dying from vaccine but not being reported, big tech/big government/big pharma and now erosion of freedom and the rise of the Fourth Reich... Always getting a little less fanciful, always getting a little more believable, where more and more seemingly normal people get sucked in.

All opinions, but very harmful, especially to the vulnerable and desperate.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison.

You can’t tell me that’s about health?

What is it about?

Have the jab or not, but don't come bloody moaning when you catch it and are ill, die or get long covid.

I know two mates who nearly died, one caught it before the vaccine, the other 'couldn't be bothered as he was young and fit' - caught it and ended up in ICU, off work for months and still get's out of breath. My other mate is still on oxygen therapy after 16 months and it's ruined his life.

Working front line, you are more likely to catch it. I got the jabs, not for me, but for others - reduced the risk for vulnerable family members. One might as well be in prison, locked down in a Nursing Home for the last two years.

This is about being forced to take a drug that has been shown to have an adverse effect on some of the people taking it,

Sorry, who in the uk is being forced to take the vaccine? Answer… no one

plus-one
Free Member

Aye ok then 🙄

@plus-one - So what're the harmful aspects of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines?

My figures suggest a fatality rate of 0.000012% based on over 100 million doses of delivered Pfizer vaccine.

Its not just to them – they are an increased vector for infection and also create reservoir of infection plus they will take up resources in healthcare in short supply.

You sure about that. And arent maybe a wee bitty mixed up as to the benefits of being vaccinated.

Being vaccinated means the vaccinated would show less severe symptoms as those who arent vaccinated, but it makes no difference to passing on the infection.

As has been previously shown, people who are vaccinated can still catch the virus and by that can also pass it on.

If they pass it to another vaccinated individual, then thats got a lesser chance of making that vaccinated individual severally unwell, and if they pass it to an unvaccinated individual then that person has an increased risk of becoming seriously unwell and perhaps even dying from the infection.

But being vaccinated doesn't stop you from catching or passing it.

Sorry, who in the uk is being forced to take the vaccine? Answer… no one

Right. But if they dont they will be sacked, but thats not forcing them eh.

Have you just woken up 😕

My figures suggest a fatality rate of 0.000012% based on over 100 million doses of delivered Pfizer vaccine.

I agree that it's a low fatality rate but I can't believe it's that low.

Where did you get that number from? Why only Pfizer?

You sure about that

yes.  Its how it works.  Unvaccinated are more likely to get it, likely to have higher viral load which makes them more infectious and thus to be a reservoir of infection, more likely to have severe illness and require longer and more intensive treatment

yes. Its how it works. Unvaccinated are more likely to get it

Thats not what im saying. Obviously unvaccinated can catch it, What im saying is either vaccinated or unvaccinated can pass it on.

My figures suggest a fatality rate of 0.000012% based on over 100 million doses of delivered Pfizer vaccine.

"Many people who catch covid might be completely unaware they even have it"

Remember those words. Direct from the government and medical society.

1645 dead. 1645 families distraught.

But hey, that okdoky, you can add that on their remembrance card they were only part of the 0.000012%

I'm sure that will be comforting to their families.

The vaccine that offers up to a massive 12 weeks of protection! 😀

Efficacy wanes but not at the rate you're suggesting - Pfizer, from 88% to 74%, AZ from 77% to 67%. So no, not "the vzccine that offers up to a massive 12 weeks protection".

I’m no anti vaxxer

Oh rilly? 🙂

Pfizer will be gradually releasing their raw data over 55 years

The document you linked to says they're start taking requests a full 52 years sooner than you claim, other manufacturers sooner than that.

I read this morning that Von der Leyen has stated that the EU are trialling a personal digital wallet based on the vaccine passport technology….for the first time ever, i’m glad we’re not in the EU!

Why? After all, you're no anti-vaxxer, right? 😉

I mean, look at Austria…. you can’t socialise in a bar for example if you aren’t ‘vaccinated’, but you can work in that same bar all day long serving customers, you can handle food, you can talk to customers, you can handle money, the only thing you can’t do is sit on the other side of the bar after your shift and have someone bring you a drink! You can’t tell me that’s about health?

Not being able to go into a bar without being vaccinated? Founds pretty health-related to me.

As for the NHS saga….12 months ago they were labelled as ‘heroes’, ‘going above and beyond’ (quite rightly to by the way) and people were in the streets clapping them….now if they’ve not had the ‘vaccine’ (that only offers a few weeks potential protection!) they are getting sacked and it seems YOU LOT are happy with that?! This is mind blowing!

As discussed, it's not "a few weeks' protection, and what percentage of NHS staff are at risk? I don't know if any of those are unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons, and I hope that there's leeway for them to be found positions where they are less at risk, because they have no choice - but those that prefer to get their medical advice from Right Said Fred rather than, I dunno, science, they still have a choice.

Covid has become a cult and a religion to many. It’s so sad to see.

Irony! 🙂

For me, the biggest problem is that it's much, much quicker and easier to throw nonsense like this about than it is to counter it. Meanwhile, the anti-vax ultras are comparing doctors and nurses saving lives every ****ing day to the medical experimenters of the Third Reich and threatening them with their own 21st Century Nuremburg Trials.

Right. But if they dont they will be sacked, but thats not forcing them eh.

Correct, they can easily and quickly avoid losing their job. They can even still bang on about their anti-vax nonsense, if they choose, and they'll also have the added prestige of being martyrs to their cause. Right Said Fred, Piers Corbyn and Denise Welch will love them.

Just as an aside - if you are not working in the health care sector in England, what are the current opportunities an unvaxxed person is missing out in the UK?

Are there any airlines either enacting or proposing not to carry you?
Are there any venues you either can't visit now or you there are proposals you can't in the future?
Are there any shops in the UK refusing to serve unvaxxed customers?

What I'm driving at....are you lot ranting at each other purely about a hypothetical conundrum in the uk?

I'm not convinced the life of the average non vaccinated in the UK has too many opportunities limited by their choice.

But being vaccinated doesn’t stop you from catching or passing it.

The word "stop" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Its one of the most common anti-vax tropes and its fundamentally flawed as an argument.

Vaccinations don't prevent all infections of Covid but they do stop some. If you are vaccinated and do still catch it they reduce your viral load and therefore reduce the chances of you passing it on.

There isn't unfortunately much data on infection protection for Omicron, but for previous strains the vaccines were very effective at preventing infection as well as dramatically reducing severe cases.

At a society level, if you are trying to control a pandemic then anything that slows down the spread of the disease is worth doing. Some of the thing we had to do early in the pandemic to control the disease, like lockdown had huge consequences. Now we have vaccines that provide enough protection and slow down infection enough that we can largely open back up and heavy, universal restriction are no longer required.

But everyone has to play their part.

I dont think its purely about the anti vaxx mob Pondo. I certainly wouldnt think some 80,000+ NHS staff follow that doctrine

Its about the word Mandate

<span class="ILfuVd"><span class="hgKElc">transitive verb. 1 : <b>to administer or assign</b> (something, such as a territory) under a mandate. 2 : to officially require (something) : make (something) mandatory : order a law mandating recycling also : to direct or require (someone) to do something a commission mandated to investigate corruption.</span></span>

.

Ergo: Forced.

Everything carries a risk. If you are at risk from a vaccine, then you are probably high up there on the likelihood of severe illness from Covid.

1600 dead from vaccine reaction - just how many millions are dead from the virus ?

More risk crossing the street, and TBH, riding our bikes.

if you are unvaccinated now there’s a good chance you have already been saved illness or even death by somoene else’s selfless actions. Now do you feel like a dick?

The rules of being a dick tend to block access to (even so simple) a revelation. Especially where humility is key.

@Daffy I suggest your figures are fantasy at best. It’s all Nhs quoted figures that pop up you need to dig deeper !!

But hey, that okdoky, you can add that on their remembrance card they were only part of the 0.000012%

@dyna-ti

Of course it's not, but given the fatality rate in the UK even with high vaccination rates is around 1.0% (over the total length of the pandemic) that 1000 bereaved families would be over 1000000 families without vaccination. Also consider that in Peru/Mexico with a largely un vaccinated population, the fatality to case rate is ~7%.

If everyone shirked their responsibility and decided for their own reasons to NOT be vaccinated, there would be a LOT more families missing a loved one, we'd also be suffering FAR more restrictions to our daily lives, the cost of living would be astronomical and millions would be unemployed.

0.000012% might be a high price to pay, but EVERY other alternative is much, MUCH, MUCH! higher.

I dont think its purely about the anti vaxx mob Pondo. I certainly wouldnt think some 80,000+ NHS staff follow that doctrine

Its about the word Mandate

Nor would I but without further information, who knows.

Do you have the option of declining something that's been mandated? I think you do, don't you?

Thats not what im saying. Obviously unvaccinated can catch it, What im saying is either vaccinated or unvaccinated can pass it on.

Being unvaccinated means you re more likely to catch it, its more likely to be serious and because yo have a higher viral load you are more likely to pass it onto others

Unvaccinated folk create a greater risk to others.  thats how it works

@plus-one - my figures didn't come from the NHS they came from FULL Fact and other organisations setup to fact check stupid claims by Anti-Vaxers and Alternate Truthers.

The NHS figures are actually slightly worse as we (the UK) used a lot of the AZ vaccine in the early stages which has a higher fatality rate. The UK number is 0.0000187% dose/fatality, but is declining daily as more doses are delivered and the vaccine types are more refined/targeted.

1645 dead. 1645 families distraught.

Died following the vaccine or from the vaccine?

Some people are arses.

This thinking applies to both sides of the vaccine "debate". The level of ignorance of the scientific fact on the anti-vax side is staggering (akin to Flat Earthers) but equally the intolerance of some on the other side is equally daft. Maybe, if everyone engaged and listened more openly and actually listened we'd hear what the other is saying.

Has to be said I am firmly in the pro side but we need to engage and understand or we we risk pushing people further into their rabbit hole.

Perhaps requiring vaccination proof before use of social media might solve the matter....😉🤠🎣

@Drac - Died from complications specifically related to having been injected with one of the vaccines.

1645 isn't quite my number but it's close enough.

Have the jab or not, but don’t come bloody moaning when you catch it and are ill, die or get long covid.

Well I don't entirely disagree.....but...as a climber who undertakes a really bloody selfish pursuit that can reasonably easily end up with me splattered on the rocks below, I'm bloody glad there are folk out there who are willing to come and airlift me out and hopefully put me back together again and this is without special insurances (pretty sure climbing would be uninsurable) to cover this human effort and expense. I suppose that many of us indulge in some activities that might be considered hugely selfish and irresponsible that can lead to other people being extremely inconvenienced, hurt or even psychologically damaged as a result of our "selfish" decisions.... Maybe not entirely the same as refusing to be vaccinated but still worth considering before we pass too much judgement on others.

Died from complications specifically related to having been injected with one of the vaccines.

Related to or caused by?

1645 isn’t quite my number but it’s close enough.

Where are these figures?

After receiving the first dose. The actual gov burb states 'possibly' .

the cost of living would be astronomical and millions would be unemployed.

The cost of living is astronomical, and millions are unemployed 😆

But if they dont they will be sacked, but thats not forcing them eh

No… forcing someone gives someone no choice

They have a choice, it’s not a choice they may like but it’s still very much a choice