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With all the stories about sick leave cuts, movement limitations, etc for those who haven’t been vaccinated, are we seeing a sensible approach, or a lot of political and personal feelings getting in the way of the current situation?
I might need a bit of education on this, but I thought the vaccine was to minimise the risk posed by the known strains, but with the lifting of restrictions and hospitalisation being down and manageable, is it really fair to punish personal choice in this manner?
is it really fair to punish personal choice in this manner?
Yes
What he said.
If you think we're done with Covid your very wrong.
It isn't going away any time soon.
For all we know there could be another variant just around the corner.
One that the vaccine is not effective against.
So, in my view, yes it's fair.
I'd love to be the kind of person who had tolerance for this kind of stuff but after all the shit covid has put me and my family through over the last two years then sorry, no, just do the thing that saves all the lives and shut the **** up
Movement limitation is not a "punishment." It's exercising the same rights they are. Eg, someone doesn't want to be vaccinated, that's their personal choice. Someone else doesn't want to allow the unvaccinated into their shop, equally that is their personal choice.
You / they can't have it both ways. Actions have consequences.
Do you choose not to have a gym membership and then complain about being punished for not being able to use the gym?
It looks like fascism is alive and kicking on STW 😯
Grow up.
With all the stories about sick leave cuts
Isolating due to close contact to someone else isn’t sickness.
If you lift restrictions its even more important that everyone is vaccinated.
is it really fair to punish personal choice in this manner?
ISWYDT
If you lift restrictions its even more important that everyone is vaccinated.
A blatantly obvious fact hiding in plain sight.
Imagine it like this - we meet in a bar and begin to talk. The conversation flows convivially and we decide that we both like each other and so I offer to buy you a drink. You happily accept and drink the drink and we both part as friends.
Now imagine the same scenario except this time rather than offer to buy you a drink, I hand you one and demand that you drink it. Do you think that you would be quite so willing to accept my otherwise kind and well intentioned offer?
No, thought not, and that folks is why you keep vaccines as entirely voluntary because to do otherwise will result if far fewer people accepting it. Besides, we still live in a free society where telling someone else what they can and can't do with their body is a moral travesty that should be resisted at all costs.
Patrons only in the bar ....
Do you think that you would be quite so willing to accept my otherwise kind and well intentioned offer?
Free beer? Yes please.
We're at 90% eligible vaccinated. Before vaccination was a thing it was thought that if we got to 60 or 70% we'd be doing well. We're doing very well. At this point it's a shrug of the shoulders from me.
No one is saying vaccination is compulsory. Everyone has choices. But choices have consequences.
Besides, we still live in a free society where telling someone else what they can and can’t do with their body is a moral travesty that should be resisted at all costs.
Well, maybe, but if someone chose to go injecting themselves with Ebola/smallpox/anthrax/some other nasty and then wanted to go shopping at Bluewater I think we’d all be reasonably happy with then being forcibly isolated in double quick time. We can all think of extreme examples to justify our case in each direction!
Freedom of choice is good up to the point it impinges on that of others and Freedom of action is not freedom from consequence. There’s a whole grey area where ‘you’re not doing your bit, at minimal cost to you, so things are going to be a bit more difficult for you’ might not be the most terrible option. We’re well into the territory of ‘least worst’ and messy compromise.
For something like going to a pub, football match or cinema I think its not unreasonable to say that you must have a vaccine
to do otherwise will result if far fewer people accepting it.
Is there actually any evidence to back that up?
I find the suggestion that it's just like someone buying a stranger a drink unconvincing.
I have no issue with choice, but if you understand the consequences of your choice with plenty of notice and opportunity to change your mind, at no cost to yourself, then I don't see how you can complain if you are not able to do certain things as a result of your choice.
The issue I have is with the fact that the unvaccinated seem to also combine this, almost to prove their point, with deliberately lax behaviour. We only have one out of 50 staff members who is not vaccinated, and she chose to come to work feeling slightly rough, without telling anyone that her husband was also at home feeling similar, then only when someone else tested positive and had to isolate did she test herself (only when asked), and now there are multiple avoidable contacts who may also end up testing positive. The rest of us who are fully vaccinated would have been more careful than this since we work in a field where close contact is always required and working from home is not an option.
Besides, we still live in a free society where telling someone else what they can and can’t do with their body is a moral travesty that should be resisted at all costs.
I agree with this point. However saying " if you want to enter my pub then you must be vaccinated" is a very different thing. Most services have the right to choose who uses that service. Its no different morally to dress codes
Sorry Jude, you chose to enter the bar. The drink is not possibly going to preserve life, yours, theirs or anybody else's.
If I am vaccinated I will be better able to resist infection. Egotistically 'I'm alright Jack' , but so too are my immediate contacts and also those unvaccinated for whatever reason because there is one less infectious person spreading.
You should stay at home instead.
We also have a lot of things that are restricted - like you need to pass a driving test to drive a car. Like you cannot walk into a restaurant with no clothes on etc etc
No one is saying vaccination is compulsory.
Well clearly there it is, if there's a negative action attached for not doing something. Which is clearly the state of play at the moment.
.
Hand me over your wallet or I'll hit you with this hammer.
What do you do ?. Hand it over or face being hit. So where then is the crime of robbery ?. It was your free choice to do so, You didn't want to get hit, so you voluntarily handed over the wallet.
Sounds stupid, but that's the argument being offered.
Being vaccinated isn't going to prevent you from getting infected, nor passing on that infection to someone else.
How many health workers HEALTH WORKERS !! are unvaccinated ?? 80,000 is it.
So hardly a small number and certainly they feel theres a danger they dont want to face.
Sounds stupid, but that’s the argument being offered.
Well you got the first part right.
The issue I have is with the fact that the unvaccinated seem to also combine this, almost to prove their point, with deliberately lax behaviour.
This.
I mean, it's one thing saying you don't want a vax if you then take a load of extra precautions around mask wearing, hand washing/sanitising and social distancing but most anti-vaxxers seem to delight in being as contrary as they possibly can be.
Which means they need to have their "freedoms" that they keep banging on about restricted until they've seen sense. Surprisingly, when they find they can't go to the pub without a vaccine, they become much more willing to have it.
Besides, we still live in a free society where telling someone else what they can and can’t do with their body is a moral travesty that should be resisted at all costs
And yet compulsory vaccines exist for travelling to certain parts of the world, doing certain jobs etc and I doubt anyone asked your opinion when you were sitting there aged 3 in the nurses office for your MMR vaccine...
You think that’s bad? My uncle was arrested and imprisoned for his beliefs!
He believed he could **** on the bus.
Well you got the first part right.
Oh ho ho, very witty drac. Thats the best way of defending against an argument you disagree with. Ridicule.
Top marks, move to spot one.
So you disagree that there's consequences for not receiving a vaccine ?.
but that’s the argument being offered.
I have neither the patience nor the crayons to explain to you why that is not the argument being offered.
So there have always been requirements to vaccinate before travel to certain places, why is this any different?
The only thing I’m not completely comfortable with is people losing their jobs. Although you could still argue the solution is fairly simple…
doubt anyone asked your opinion when you were sitting there aged 3 in the nurses office for your MMR vaccine…
Ah but this is a whole new world since the wonders of teh internets. Where millions of mewling, un-self-aware, ‘anti-snowflake’-snowflakes play Donald Trump playing Joseph McCarthy playing William Wallace in their own Save The Free World From Commufascists biopic*
* screens nightly (and daily) via socialantisocial media.
Source: the nightly mirror 😱
So you disagree that there’s consequences for not receiving a vaccine ?
Catching Covid?
It seems so unfair.
The good news is that vaccinated people will still look after you if necessary.
Well clearly there it is, if there’s a negative action attached for not doing something.
No, you still have choice. You can drive without a seatbelt if you want to, you can eat only salt, try and bring drugs into the country, attempt to marry your favourite ocelot, you can try and rob a bank or tell Johnson what you REALLY think of him with a set of pliers and a blow torch. You have that choice just as we all do, just as you can choose whether to vaccinate or not, but none of us are free of the consequences of our actions.
The only thing I’m not completely comfortable with is people losing their jobs.
But there are those here who think this is acceptable. If 80,000 nhs workers dont want the vaccine they should be sacked, and receive no social security benefits because they have voluntarily dismissed themselves from their job.
Of course this will seriously hinder the operation of hospitals ,health centers. But if that is the consequence of their refusal, then that is correct
So you disagree that there’s consequences for not receiving a vaccine ?.
No, but it’s hardly the same as being threatened with a hammer.
I mean let’s look at what the consequences are.
You won’t be able to work in the NHS in England or in a nursing home.
Some companies will no longer give more the SSP for you having to isolate due to close contact with a infected person, which is a legal requirement.
Consequences of handing your wallet over, you lose maybe some cash and your wallet that says Bad MOFO on it. Which isn’t a big deal.
Now let’s look at the benefits if you have the vaccine, you’re less likely to catch, spread or die of covid and if you do catch it les likely to suffer long covid. All that for a tiny risk of a serious adverse effect.
Let’s look at the benefits of being hit by a hammer… nope can’t think of any.
The good news is that vaccinated people will still look after you if necessary.
Which is actually an interesting bioethical dilemma.
Hippocratic Oath says that you treat all patients equally, regardless of how they came to be in hospital. Treating smokers or alcoholics for example - it's a lifestyle choice, people are free to smoke (within certain fairly strict rules), the difference being that when the smoker is in hospital dying of lung cancer, they're not endangering anyone else there or forcing staff to isolate.
Yes, their lifestyle choice has lead to a painful early death but it doesn't really endanger any of the staff looking after them or other patients sharing the ward.
Unlike a patient requiring urgent treatment for Covid due to their own lifestyle choice of not getting a simple free vaccine...
No, but it’s hardly the same as being threatened with a hammer.
OK then, we'll conveniently remove 'Hammer' and replace it with something else.
.
Please feel free to offer something else in its place.
.
Over to you 😉
I can understand why many people choose not to do dangerous things - like for instance mountain biking or kitesurfing - and if I end up in a coffin as a result then people may correctly point out that it was my own fault, but I was at least enjoying myself and not endangering others.
Most people choosing not to get vaccinated are I would think doing so because of misinformation and unfounded scaremongering about gene therapy and the like, and are in fact taking higher risks driving to work, which is what I find particularly annoying.
Not the driving to work, just the lack of sensible use of the brain.
Well clearly there it is, if there’s a negative action attached for not doing something. Which is clearly the state of play at the moment.
It's not a negative action. It's the restriction of a privilege. You don't have a god-given right to go to the pub.
Over to you 😉
A better analogy with your wallet might be, put your card behind the bar or you can't open a tab.
Which, of course, is totally comparable to the rise of the Third Reich.
Making someone do something that is bad for them by threatening something worse is not the same as encouraging someone do do something that is good for them (and others) by making their life a little less convenient (to protect the people you won’t) for not doing the thing that is good for them and others.
Clear?
Well said Cougar.
OK then, we’ll conveniently remove ‘Hammer’ and replace it with something else.
Booking in to a hotel they take your card details for the mini bar. It’s expensive but when you wake up in the night clamming for a drink that chilled can lemonade is better than warm tap water.
Selective use of the idea of freedoms and what is or isn’t acceptable.
You need a passport to travel abroad. You need a credit check to get a loan. You need to tell America you’re not planning on being a terrorist to go on holiday there.
BUT I DON'T WANT A PASSPORT!!
Mandating vaccines as a condition of working in healthcare has a number of undesirable secondary effects the most serious
1) it alters the whole legal basis for consent as its a fundamental principle that it is done without coercion. Bolam is the legal case to look up that defines this
2) 70 000 staff will be lost from the front line. this will nearly double the vacancies in NHS england. Care home are already mandated and it has led to a large increase in vacancies as people have left. There is no doubt this will have a significant effect on staff in some areas. we are now less than two weeks from the dealine
All of the royal colleges are against it, many employers, all the unions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/unvaccinated-nhs-staff-in-england-urged-to-have-covid-jab-before-deadline
And away we go.
If 80,000 nhs workers dont want the vaccine they should be sacked,
Point of note here, that 80,000 unvaccinated refers to the HNS as a whole. The ones being made to have the jab as part of their job are frontline staff, so that figure is grossly exaggerated.
Don't worry Drac - one post on this. I know its contentious and has resulted in threads being closed
So 80,000 health workers in England alone are unvaccinated. The very same workers who are up close and personal with people suffering/dying with all manner of ailments/diseases.
The fact they refuse the vaccine speaks volumes !!
A better analogy with your wallet might be, put your card behind the bar or you can’t open a tab.
Which, of course, is totally comparable to the rise of the Third Reich.
Neat analogy, except now one’s ‘card’ is only valid if it’s forcibly branded/tattooed into your actual flesh. Now who did stuff like that? Etc…
Source: The Devil’s council of advocates.
Speaks volumes of what?
But as earlier mentioned, these are not all frontline workers so no they are not all in contact with sick people.
Yes fair enough Cougar. Well put. But the basic of basics of premise here is freedom of choice is it not.
Some are saying the freedom of choice in mtbing is you might get hurt(Admittedly you then can need to involve others, possibly putting them at some sort of risk)
So while freedom of choice is accepting to exist in going off cycling or having a drink, risking getting plastered and falling on your head, those same voices are advocating the not wishing to be vaccinated is not a freedom of choice. Clearly it is.
for the record I am pro vaccine. Couldn't wait till i got mine and no complaints as to which.
But freedom to choose is as important a subject as issues can get, and even though it might cause others problems, it must still be strictly adhered to. Wars were fought over these freedoms, and i dont think we should just cast them aside.
70 000 staff will be lost from the front line
a) As above, I believe this to be way out (a quick google would suggest closer to about 20-25k)
b) You're assuming that the bulk of those refusing will continue to do so
c) What use will they be if rather than at being work in a high-risk environment without the required PPE (because let's not forget, antivaxers love to crow about how vaccines don't stop you from catching the virus) when they're dead, or when they're in ICU tying up even more NHS resources?
And away we go.
Drac, is there anything here that hasn't been discussed, and answered, many times over in the main thread? Certainly most of what I've typed here I've already typed once.
Neat analogy, except now one’s ‘card’ is only valid if it’s forcibly branded/tattooed into your actual flesh.
Alright.
To drink in my pub, you have you have to have a customer ID barcode tattooed on your wrist. No tattoo, no drinks, other pubs are available, ****ity-bye.
Choice, see?
Now who did stuff like that? Etc…
Book of Revelations, I think.
(And yes, it's a bloody silly analogy, but you started it 😁)
Drac, is there anything here that hasn’t been discussed, and answered, many times over in the main thread? Certainly most of what I’ve typed here I’ve already typed once.
It’s rapidly heading that way.
The figure for unvaccinated staff is around 80k or so but it’s not clear how many exempt, how many aren’t frontline. All were seeing is dramatics like one a friend shared from GBNews. Nurse who has worked in the NHS for 48 years faces being sacked for refusing the vaccine. Yeah as 66/67 year old won’t retire on full pension.
The ones being made to have the jab as part of their job are frontline staff
Minor point of order if I may?
It's not just 'front line' staff in the sense of doctors, nurses etc. I work in NHS IT, looking after general hardware, networks etc for GP practices, and 'vaccination as a condition of deployment' is likely to affect my role* and my team in the not too distant future. The definition we've been advised is that "anyone carrying out work on any premises inspected and regulated by the CQC" could be expected to be vaccinated (or medically exempt) to be allowed on site, so that includes me and our engineer team, including contractors that we take on.
(* I'm vaccinated so it's not an issue for me.)
To
drinkwork in my pub, you have tohave a customer ID barcode tattooed on your wristhave pig DNA injected into the fleshy part of your ear. Nogammon in lobehamoglobin, no job, scarce other pub jobs are available, ****ity-bye.
The definition we’ve been advised is that “anyone carrying out work on any premises inspected and regulated by the CQC” could be expected to be vaccinated
Most odd as my wife works in admin and they’ve been told they don’t need to, neither do our admin, stores, control, HQ staff or anyone else without face to face contact.
Does the individual have face-to- face contact with patients or service users in their role?
This includes entering areas which are utilised for the provision of a CQC-regulated activity which may result in incidental face to face contact with patients or service users
That might be why in your case.
So while freedom of choice is accepting to exist in going off cycling or having a drink
What about doing both of those things? I want to go to the pub and drop eight pints of Stella, then drive home. Do I have freedom of choice here? WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING ME?!
For what it's worth, I think sacking is an extreme measure if there are other options such as relocation. I don't doubt that the NHS is crying out for non-frontline staff elsewhere.
Ultimately though, does the NHS's "do no harm" / duty of care not extend to its own staff? As the ant-vaxers love to tell us, being vaccinated doesn't stop you from spreading it. Imagine the headlines if high-risk (unvaccinated) frontline staff working in high-risk (a bloody hospital full of sick people) areas started dropping like flies. Questions will surely be asked, "well, why were they allowed to be there in the first place?"
Most odd as my wife works in admin and they’ve been told they don’t need to, neither do our admin, stores, control, HQ staff or anyone else without face to face contact.
Fair enough - perhaps the guidance is different between trusts/organisations. I only know what we've been told within our CCG, and how it impacts our team.
At the other end of NHS craziness my brother in law is a cardiac anaesthetist and 2 of his colleagues have been refusing vaccination all along, with the result that they cannot do their jobs. They have been sat at home getting full pay for nearly 2 years, all the whole compromising the care of critical cardiac patients for the sake of their illogical ideological stance.
So,
How do you all feel that once you scan your pass to get into the pub / restaurant / stadium, into the safe zone that... Most of the people in the kitchen / behind the scenes are unlikely to have taken it. Many have zero fear of losing their job. Likely the same applies to contract cleaners, caterers and delivery people at your hospital.
Where is your evidence that most staff in pubs and restaurants are not vaccinated? That sounds like a made-up stat.
How do you all feel that once you scan your pass to get into the pub / restaurant / stadium, into the safe zone that… Most of the people in the kitchen / behind the scenes are unlikely to have taken it.
You mean that thing you don’t need to do? Yeah I’m fine with not needing to do it but fortunately I have a pass so don’t need a test.
Minor point of order if I may?
Thank you for the info. I was struggling to find accurate definitions.
To work in my pub, you have you have pig DNA injected into your person. No hamoglobin, no job, few other pub jobs are available
Then I'd try to find out all I could about whether scary-sounding words were actually harmful and then analyse that risk against having to retrain as a plumber.
They have been sat at home getting full pay for nearly 2 years
For refusing the vaccine? Has the vaccine been out for that long?
To work in my pub, you have you have pig DNA injected into your person. No hamoglobin, no job, few other pub jobs are available
We can save your life and give you a normal life by giving pig’s heart valves or you can take the chance and live a debilitating life.
You do in many EU countries outside of the UK.
Note, that in most EU countries you only need this to enter as a customer, not to work behind the scenes.
So not the UK.
Cool! Thanks for playing.
The post#:batshit ratio on this thread is fantastically high! Some of this stuff is amazing - I think we hit Godwin halfway down the first page, and comparisons with the Holocaust soon after.
I will just say that I think linking vaccine status to sick-pay is a terrible idea - it will inevitably result in people coming to work when they are sick, instead of being at home and self isolating. I think somebody gave a good example of this somewhere in the mess of nonsense being posted above.
The juggernaut that's coming (particularly in the US) is health insurance premium increases for people that are unvaccinated. ICU is expensive - particularly over there.... that money has got to come from somewhere. "discrimination" based on vaccine status is here to stay - the only people I have any sympathy for are those who are medically unable to have it.
I'd just sat down for tea and biscuits and thought I'd throw in my comment for entertainment. I've now finished both so will promptly leave back to my stance on most things as lonely centrist 🙂
Any ancillary threads always end up at the same arguments discussed on the main thread ad infinitum imo.
That sounds like a made-up stat.
Hey. This thread is surviving on made up stats. Leave them alone.
Of the 80,000 unvaccinated nhs workers, the unproven number being banded about a mere 25,000 might be frontline staff, the rest clearly dont do an important job, so we can sling them onto the unemployment line and the nhs will function as normal.
Drac, is there anything here that hasn’t been discussed, and answered, many times over in the main thread? Certainly most of what I’ve typed here I’ve already typed once.
Righto. No more What gloves, what shocks, what winter woollies for you. You've said your piece on multiple threads concerning those subjects so we dont need to revisit them eh ? 😕
Or it is the argument winner. Not going the way you want, too many in disagreement so lets just close the thread and bury out combined heads in the big bucket of sand.
The post#:batshit ratio on this thread is fantastically high! Some of this stuff is amazing – I think we hit Godwin halfway down the first page, and comparisons with the Holocaust soon after.
I forgot to leave the light on again? 😳
*clik*
satire is dead old chap...... some people are actually making the same argument as you were satirizing
satire is dead old chap
Preach. And for so long now that however it may smell funny, it’s not actually funny. 😢
By the name of Our Lady Cassidy Boon
By the light of a ‘literally hovering’ moon
By the twittering sounds of Shatner’s Bassoon,
I declare that
#satireisdead
Fully vaxxxed (3x) did you see what i did there..
Anyway i am not here to advise on peoples life choices nor am i here to take on the implications of those choices.
Worked example - next time i need a hospital bed because some **** has run me over and you the "unvaxed" are sat in it due to Covid - get the **** out and change the sheets before you you irresponsible ****.
next time i need a hospital bed because some * has
run me overbeen run over and you the “cyclist” are sat in it due to cycling in traffic – get the * out and change the sheets before you you irresponsible ****.
stfy
/satire