[Closed] Another "why am I fat" thread...

[i]Do people seriously still believe this is how it works?[/i]

Evidently so. Its like going back the 1980s.
😆

Around my fattest part, my belly button, I can pinch about an inch and a quarter. So there's not a lot of subcutaneous fat on me. You can just about see my abs for the top half.

Most of it's on the other side of the stomach muscles, which is why my belly goes in when I lose weight.

Incidentally today I've had some scrambled eggs with cheese, a sausage, a coffee and a handful of peanuts. Am I hungry? Not at all. Do I fancy a cake? Hell yes.

If I'd eaten that few calories in the form of cereal, I'd fancy a cake and I'd be bloody ravenous, thereby making it a lot harder to ignore the desire for cake!

I didn't realise this thread was still going on...
Firstly @Kryton, yeah don't radically change your diet or overly-restrict calorie intake in the run up to an endurance event
Secondly @solo - I fail to understand why you're struggling with the concept so much. Fat is where the body stores excess energy, ergo if you change to having a calorie deficit where do you think it takes the balance from? It really isn't rocket science. Trying to directly target fat stores can work but is often not the most efficient way of doing it as you'll likely not be creating as big a calorie deficit as you would be by doing higher intensity exercise, especially for someone with limited time to exercise.
If you really want to target fat directly then get liposuction.

Fat is where the body stores excess energy, ergo if you change to having a calorie deficit where do you think it takes the balance from? It really isn't rocket science.

But it is well known and been mentioned many times on here before that insulin inhibits use of stored fat for energy. Thus if the calories you have consumed cause the release of insulin then you will not burn fat.

Trying to directly target fat stores can work but is often not the most efficient way of doing it as you'll likely not be creating as big a calorie deficit as you would be by doing higher intensity exercise,

You lost me on that one. HIIT targets fat way better than longer lower HR rides. So if you have limited time HIIT is ideal.

Isn't mountain biking (in proper hilly/rocky terrain) often somewhat akin to HIIT anyway?

Admittedly I don't know a lot about it but I was thinking about this on a ride in the Lakes last night and I generally go at certain sections of climbs really hard (say to get up a particularly steep/tricky bit with enough momentum), then ease off for a bit to rest where it gets less steep (still putting in quite a bit of effort - then there's periods of sustained steady effort on flat bits etc.

Isn't mountain biking (in proper hilly/rocky terrain) often somewhat akin to HIIT anyway?

Depends where you live.. Somewhere in the SE maybe, with short sharp climbs, but up North where each climb takes 10 mins, not so much.

F/W.
Sounds to me like you need to lay off the carbs mate. You're blathering is of a biblical magnitude.

Oh, and you're not answering my Qs.
😉

[i]There still seems a lot of crap being typed about burning fat to, that's irrelevant for someone trying to lose weight[/i]
That is bollocks ! But in your more recent jabberings:

[i]ergo if you change to having a calorie deficit where do you think it takes the balance from?[/i]
Your fat stores, perhaps ? In which case, you [b]will[/b] be [i]burning[/i] fat.
Or, as I asked before, what else are you [i]burning[/i].

Anyway, OP wants to lose fat. And you're saying, don't use fat, just run a caloric deficit. Ever heard of a scientist from the 60s called Jean Mayer ? Jean starved rats to death (an extreme form of calorie deficit), only to find..... They still had fat in their bodies. What does this tell you ?

Solo - I'll drop you a mail. IIRC you may have had to pay for the idave diet? If so just send me a summary as I'm interested in what its about atm - I don't want to unfairly get something for free you've paid for.

I would just add, yet again I've returned from a ride after kind of following MolGrips advice - I've had 2 slices of toast at 7am, a cereal bar at 11, 2 coffee's with total 2 spoons of can sugar - then on the bike at 12:30. Just done 35k in a 20kmph wind with an average of 18.1mph and 6 Strava records - all on climbs. 18.1mph average for me is good and the fastest this year.

Also, despite the "complaining" from my legs I've been able to happily wind up the gears - looking down on a flat at a Garmin to see myself rocking along at 24/25mph is a novelty to me.

Got to be more than a coincidence - I'm pretty convinced now the Race Weight diet didn't suit me at all.

Edit: No food on the bike at all - just water with a std zipvit hydro tab. With the planned evening meal and luch I've just eaten Mfp puts me at 1900cals today

Kryton.

iDave released the 2 page .pdf doc for free. Based on his C.V. some folk approached him for more detailed/personalized information. Thats where things went wrong.

So, the basic iDave diet doc is free, at least from me.
🙂

Depends where you live.. Somewhere in the SE maybe, with short sharp climbs, but up North where each climb takes 10 mins, not so much.

Yeah but like I said it's not like each climb is of a consistent intensity - I often have short bursts of absolutely beasting myself to get up a short section then easing off, and repeat......

[i]I often have short bursts of absolutely beasting myself [/i]

Steady on, you'll hurt yourself.

[i] in a 20kmph wind, [/i]

[i] looking down on a flat at a Garmin to see myself rocking along at 24/25mph is a novelty to me.[/i]

Tailwinds are precious and beautiful things

[i]Tailwinds are precious and beautiful things[/i]

Only if they're your own.

FWIW, that 24/25mph value was on a flat travelling east to west. The wind is Southerly.

Into the wind I was at 18/19mph, with the wind about 27mph. The average has come down becuase of the 400m climbing I did.

I recently rode 4 hours, 64 miles. The largest climb was 1.7 miles, 656 ft, 12% in places. There were several other climbs too.

Set out fasted, on water, started eating at 2hrs 10 mins when I had 1/2 dozen mini scotch eggs. I was carrying coconut macaroons too, but didn't need them.
I did have a 50/50 mix of none concentrate fruit juice and water in my second bottle, which I went into during the last 2 hrs.

Just a typical ride.

Good for you kryton57, ignore me, I'm just being silly ( and slightly jealous, went out last night in similar conditions and was no where near your figures)

Trust me Nick, I'm similalry surprised and haven't achieved anything like that in the last 8 months.

Last year I average a 100k with a 18.2 mph average and was told on here that that wasn't fast, and my club rides faster than me so I don't consider that fast.

There may be an element of winter rides coming good, the roads being dry, warmth, shorts instead of longs which contributed as well 🙂

@Solo - I understand now why I can't get rid of this belly. If I was planning a similar ride to yours prior to this week, I'd be eating a massive bowl of granola, carrying a high 5 energy drink, regularly eating fig rolls / jelly babies during the ride and at least one energy bar.

Looks like I need to re-learn what my body will allow me to cope with and trust it.

Edit: [url= http://app.strava.com/activities/49244436 ]Proof here[/url]. Wind numbers where from Endo.

I found cutting out bread in my diet helped a lot with weight loss , and generally stopped me feeling bloated and farting all day

Hmm, so pros and cons then

are you hank or rob on endo kryton ?

Trail Rat - Hank - pork wah?

Edit *considers going out for another 5k* LOL!

Err OK perhaps I should have added (but assumed it would be stating the obvious) the 1600 (or whatever) calories you should be on need to be a balanced diet and not 1600 calories from jelly babies (apologies I made the mistake of assuming common-sense existed in STW...).
And seriously Solo wtf are you going on about? You were talking about targeting fat burning DURING exercise that was your whole point, my point was you don't need to target burning fat DURING exercise in order to lose fat and that, given limited time to exercise, you would ultimately lose more weight (inc. fat) by including HIIT which DURING them isn't the optimal way to target fat stores however their overall effect is creating a larger calorie deficit so post-exercise your body uses more calories replenishing glycogen stores rather than laying down more fat and the secondary effect of raising the BMR causing your body to use more calories repairing itself than it would be doing had you just done steady-state stuff.

..my point was you don't need to target burning fat DURING exercise in order to lose fat and that, given limited time to exercise, you would ultimately lose more weight (inc. fat) by including HIIT which DURING them isn't the optimal way to target fat stores however their overall effect is creating a larger calorie deficit so post-exercise your body uses more calories replenishing glycogen stores rather than laying down more fat and the secondary effect of raising the BMR causing your body to use more calories repairing itself than it would be doing had you just done steady-state stuff.

Well this goes against everything i've done. I used to do loads of HIIT, circuit training, running, intervals on the bike but didn't really burn that much fat. When i changed my diet the fat fell off me

So i'd say it's not exercise that wholly burns fat it's your diet that turns you into a fat burning machine (also backed up by 2 fitness tests id 6 months apart - this gave my metabolic profile which showed prior to this diet i was rubbish at fat burning)

I am bearing down on you in number 3 - not really as ive done no recreational miles this week really other than a 10 miler on the TT bike to check function and position.

Kryton.

I've mailed the info you asked for. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
😀

EDIT:
[i]So i'd say it's not exercise that wholly burns fat it's your diet that turns you into a fat burning machine [/i]
This, [b]very much[/b]. Get off relying on so much carb in your diet and your body will switch to using B/F, for everything, BMR, exercise, the lot.

trail_rat - Member
I am bearing down on you in number 3 - not really as ive done no recreational miles this week really other than a 10 miler on the TT bike to check function and position.

Thats good to hear 😉

Seriously though good luck - this mileage is unsual for me as normally work gets in the way, I'm working (coughs) flexibly though bit to get the miles in before BORS. You may find our roles are reversed as we get near the end of the month, plus I'll revert to MTB rides to get the bike / skills ready for BORS..... 😐

Solo - many thanks - I replied.

@trickydisco - but were you creating a calorie deficit? If you were fuelling those sessions with fast carbs then you're not creating a deficit.
Sure, above and beyond a balanced diet, there are specific ways of manipulating fat usage (e.g. ketosis) but they aren't vital in order to start losing fat and are of marginal benefit if you aren't creating a calorie deficit in the first place

@trickydisco - but were you creating a calorie deficit? If you were fuelling those sessions with fast carbs then you're not creating a deficit.

haven't a clue never have counted calories. but i do know I thought i was eating healthy.. lots of pasta, veg, wholemeal bread. Like i said i did a fitness test in the December and it came out at my base rate (125bpm) 42% of energy was coming from fats. Post diet (and a bit of training) this changed to 84%

what is BORS ?

i have how ever separated my commuting miles into the commuting challenge - they are an entirely different set of miles 😉 so you may not see our positions turn round. this weekends eaten by taking the mrs to the womans road race at garelochhead and then im doing a sprint tri on sunday.

If you were fuelling those sessions with fast carbs then you're not creating a deficit.

When I was fuelling with carbs to the recommended levels, 1g/kg body weight/h then there was still a calorie deficit. You can't eat enough carbs to replace all the energy you burn.

The point is that eating the carbs produces insulin which prevents the use of fat for fuel. If you don't eat the carbs straight away then you'll be burning much more fat when you are riding. This has knock on effects beyond the burning of fat during the exercise - it trains your fat burning metabolic pathways. So you will use more fat all the time, and be better able to burn fat generally through the day.

I used to find it impossible to go without breakfast or to eat a late lunch - both things are easy now.

trail_rat - Member
what is BORS ?

i have how ever separated my commuting miles into the commuting challenge - they are an entirely different set of miles so you may not see our positions turn round. this weekends eaten by taking the mrs to the womans road race at garelochhead and then im doing a sprint tri on sunday.

lol cheating eh? Mine really are cycling sport - I don't commute by bike.

BORS - Bucks Off Road Sportive - 132k MTB on May 12. 😯

not at all - i seperated them out 😉

[i]Last year I average a 100k with a 18.2 mph average and was told on here that that wasn't fast[/i]

I wouldn't believe half the things you read on here 😉 Against some club racers I know, that'll put you off the back, against most of population, you'll be settling down on the sofa having washed your bike and put it away before they show up....

trail_rat - Member
not at all - i seperated them out

Ah - you did already! Apologies I misunderstood - bloody hell well done!

Please tell me you have a part time job and no kids... 😉

Crikey, that idiet would need discipline...

5:2?

Full time job, no kids and a mrs who rides bikes as much as i do helps.

Only things that get in my way are when i travel for work , diy and my land rover.

Tomorrow's breakfast was: 2 slices granary toast with butter, filter coffe with milk and sugar

Tomorrow's breakfast is now: Poached egg, parma ham and chorizo, black filter coffee.

🙄

Crikey, that idiet would need discipline...

It's not as bad as you first think. You soon lose the craving for sweet stuff. You just need to make sure you eat enough of the permitted stuff to be full.

it's been known for decades if not a couple of centuries that sugar makes people fat. It's just so prevalent these days people generally have no idea how much of the stuff they're consuming... until they try and go without it.

So are we agreed then?
1) To lose weight, calories in must be less than calories out.
2) High intensity work may use more calories, build muscle, raise BMR and help you lose weight. But you might not lose weight if you wolf down the carbs afterwards.
3) Becoming a fat-burning mile-munching machine takes a different approach to just losing weight. It might take longer but it'll make you a better cyclist (lighter, more endurance, faster cruising speed) 4) If you do 2), it won't help with number 3).
5) Eat nice food, prepared by your own fair hand if possible.
As an aside, I remember reading somewhere that a young Sean Yates was told off by his team manager for being tubby. To lose weight, he cleared all the food out of his apartment in Italy and took up a training regime that consisted of massive long rides to the coast where he ate a pizza, then rode back home to a bare larder. Nutter.

It's pretty simple to lose weight. Eat less than you do now and move about more.

Or a more detailed version, either eat less or eat healthier food and do more of the right type of exercise, dependent upon your physicality.

Guaranteed results every time.

"3) Becoming a fat-burning mile-munching machine takes a different approach to just losing weight. It might take longer but it'll make you a better cyclist (lighter, more endurance, faster cruising speed) 4) If you do 2), it won't help with number 3)."

the thing about number 3 is the results last longer 😉 i havent done the type of milage im doing today in years yet an elephant never forgets.

how ever a friend did tell me when i started out - Be fit when your young and itll last a life time. he returned to cycling at 32 after dropping out the ratrace and went pro.

crispycross I think thats a good summary and is basically what I have taken from this thread and adjusted at the beginning of this week accordingly, as follows:

a) I've reduced my carb intake (could still do more aka idiet)
b) My midweek rides have basically become HIIT
c) My weekend ride is Z2, that will fluctuate to "fun MTB" when outside a training window for an event.
d) I'm eating clean (I was anyway).

Its been a very useful thread this, thanks everyone.

One thing to bear in mind is that exercise to get fit is not the same as exercise to lose weight, in the first case you don't want to run out of carbs (unless you're training for a marathon or similar, and you want to simulate hitting the wall).

But cutting the crap from your diet is almost certainly a good thing, whatever your motives for riding may be.

Kryton57 - Member
Tomorrow's breakfast was: 2 slices granary toast with butter, filter coffe with milk and sugar

Tomorrow's breakfast is now: Poached egg, parma ham and chorizo, black filter coffee.

If you're going to give it a go, then that might not be filling enough. Could add some bulk with some refried beans, peas or green beans. maybe a tomato, courgette or pepper too.
Just starting it too, and IMO, it's about filling up on veg.
Once you get over the perception of them not really being "breakfasty", then adding a bowl of microwaved caulli and broccoli can bulk out any meal to be more filling without resorting to bread.
The point is, if you're not full then you're going to snack on something easy by mid morning. 🙂

crispycross - Member
So are we agreed then?
1) To lose weight, calories in must be less than calories out.

No. Not at all.
It can work if other conditions are suitable, but it's not a "must". And it's a shit mantra for losing weight. Counting and measuring anything is going to increase awareness of what you're eating. So it can work. But as a unit, they're a poor measurement. It's popular in the industry because it's easy to sell.
The so called "calorie content " of food bares no relationship to how your body absorbs and processes it. Try drinking a pint of "calorie rich" diesel and watch the immediate weight loss as your body "empties".

Quality of food is more important than numbers of "calories". Like your no.5 :

5) Eat nice food, prepared by your own fair hand if possible.

[i]Its been a very useful thread this[/i]

Agreed, let us know how you get along.
😀

[i]The point is, if you're not full then you're going to snack on something easy by mid morning.[/i]
Yes, satiety is a watch word. You'll be better fed and hunger free for longer on a breakfast of meat, eggs, etc. Than you would be on milk, sugar and grains.
[b]ime[/b].
🙂

EDIT:
[i]The so called "calorie content " of food bares no relationship to how your body absorbs and processes it. Try drinking a pint of "calorie rich" diesel and watch the immediate weight loss as your body "empties".[/i]
I've had this very same thought, but its been a good thread so far.
Imo, theres no need to hassle the calorie counters, esp if it works for them.
🙂

My favourite easy keto/almost idiet friendly breakfast is flax porridge with cream and raspberries. 1 egg whisked, 30-40g of ground flax, some water to help mix it and your choice of flavourings/sweeteners. I like some cinnamon and a bit of vanilla protein powder. Mix it up and microwave for 2 minutes, stirring halfway. Tasty and it usually fills me up til lunchtime. Plus it contains a load of fibre. I'll definitely stick to having this for breakfast even if/when I go back to a "normal" diet.

a) I've reduced my carb intake (could still do more aka idiet)

Important point - carbs are not bad, fast release carbs are bad - unless you've just finished exercising.

iDiet is not low carb, it's slow carb. You can (in theory) eat as many carbs as you like. However, I found that really eating til I was full meant eating huge portions of beany chilli, or a small portion and a single biscuit or tea with one sugar. If you experience this, Google for information on leptin. If not, ignore it 🙂

The so called "calorie content " of food bares no relationship to how your body absorbs and processes it.

Quite - it's been known for decades that whilst meat contains plenty of calories, the energy required to digest it is more than the calories you get from it. Likewise cabbage and other things. The other day I had roast pork, broccoli and cabbage. Several hundred calories, but the energy value to my body was probably negative. And since I'd been biking that day I was sodding starving after eating it, despite having taken some time to plough through it 🙂

Another advantage to iDiet is that because you're filling up on nutritious beans and veg, you eat far more nutrients than if you bulked up on pasta or spuds. You find yourself nomming down some incredibly healthy meals.

Molgrips.

I've seen your comments before on Leptin and they confuse me.

Could you elaborate on how you link Leptin, a hormone produced by adipose tissue. To eating a biscuit.

If I understand correctly, leptin is also produced by the stomach lining when it comes into contact with carbohydrate.

Incidentally, reading about this and grehlin.. holy cow, it's very intricate.. seems that your grown hormones are also affected by these hormones which are affected by what you eat.. wow..

More info

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=127293643&page=1

This helps explain the 'days off' concept. It's not quite the same role for leptin as I was thinking of though.. hmm.

Quite - it's been known for decades that whilst meat contains plenty of calories, the energy required to digest it is more than the calories you get from it. Likewise cabbage and other things. The other day I had roast pork, broccoli and cabbage. Several hundred calories, but the energy value to my body was probably negative.

Did loads of reading last night on t'web trying to understand primarily where Molly and Solo where coming from prompted by Solo's interesting comment about the study of starved rats dying but remaining fat. Seems that there's loads of studies showing why cal in cal out doesnt always work for some people, not only that, I owe you both an apology

I'm sorry

some interesting and eye opening stuff! Much more reading to do

Interesting FW, I had not done my own research on that.

Nickc - yep, there's a hell of a lot to it 🙂 No need to apologise, scepticism is good in this area due to the amount of bollocks about.

As I understand it - there are loads of hormones involved, and different levels produced by the same stimuli in all of us. And different sensitivities to those levels, based on genetics and lifestyle so far. Being fat is just one consequence a whole host of different things going on, it's just the most visible. However different things are going on in different people.

We all know people who eat loads and stay skinny without exercising, but we're reluctant to believe that the opposite is possible - that people can fat without stuffing their faces constantly. We're also quite open to the idea that some people are much better sprinters, and others are better distance athletes. I used to live with a guy who was 6'3 and looked like a renaissance statue of a god with his shirt off, despite loafing around, doing little exercise and eating and drinking tons of shite all the time.

[i]No need to apologise, scepticism is good in this area due to the amount of bollocks about.[/i]
[b]Plus 1.[/b]
🙂

I used to live with a guy who was 6'3 and looked like a renaissance statue of a god with his shirt off, despite loafing around, doing little exercise and eating and drinking tons of shite all the time.

I didn't realise we had met before. [Cough]. Or not. 😀

And amidst all of this the vital ingredient for making it all work is the mental commitment to it. It is still quite easy to read all this debate and think it's all positive and interesting but until you commit to doing something about it that's all it will be. He says, taking a long hard look at himself!

Committing to a dinner of a massive rib eye steak with brocolli, cabbage and mushrooms is very easy. As I just proved to myself 🙂

taking the mrs to the womans road race at garelochhead

Not read all this thread but other things to consider are kettlebells/body weight core work (ie press ups, planks etc)- they definately help me shift fat/become leaner.

Not read all this thread but other things to consider are kettlebells/body weight core work (ie press ups, planks etc)- they definately help me shift fat/become leaner.

I think I wrote somewhere in the first page or too, when I was lean 3 years ago, co-incidentally I was working out with 'bells 2 x per week and riding once per week.

I've had to cut back on them now i'm racing so much and my body shape has changed as changed - I'm still the same weight, just not as "ripped".

Also, why are you doing Z2 rides or you still in base?

You always need base, I think. Don't forget that the principle of base in the winter and speed in the summer applies to people with a packed racing season like yourself DG... for general riders and loafers like me it's a case of base when you have time 🙂

Dgoab were you up racing the deeside womans only apr a couple weeks back ?

If so shes the one whos crank broke off about 2 miles in 🙂

dirtygirlonabike - Member
Also, why are you doing Z2 rides or you still in base?

Mental r&r.

Dgoab were you up racing the deeside womans only apr a couple weeks back ? If so shes the one whos crank broke off about 2 miles in

Yes i was - i was in the scratch group 😯 Horrible racing in such cold conditions, my legs literally didn't work for the whole race! Good field for tomorrow, its going to be an aggressive race i think. Racing down past Manchester on Sunday too. 8)

Molgrips.

I've read your link. I'm not sure that discussion on Leptin fits your model. I've not read anything about Leptin being produced by the stomach, not withstanding that Leptin has been discovered in gastric epithelial cells. However, if that was the case, it would still be a small amount of the hormone being released, in comparison to the amounts produced by adipose tissue in all but very lean people. Therefore, eating something high GI after a meal, a) isn't going to give a real time feedback signal. b) is probably only going to contribute slightly to Leptin levels in the blood.

Keep eating your biscuit after dinner if you wish, but I'm not sure its an effective strategy. Indeed, it may be a behaviour to combat in order to give the satiety feedback loop better effect.

Just my opinion.

but I'm not sure its an effective strategy

Given that you're not me, how would you know if it's effective or not 🙂

It's not something I do all the time anyway.

[i]Given that you're not me, how would you know if it's effective or not [/i]
Sorry, I thought you were having trouble shedding the last few Kg. My misunderstanding

[i]It's not something I do all the time anyway.[/i]
Again, a misunderstanding on my part.

Anyway, in the next hour or so I am unemployed. So until the next time.
That's probably it from me.

Have fun kids.
😉

Are you being fired?

[i]Are you being fired?[/i]
😆

No, I don't get [i]fired[/i].

[img] [/img]

So.. you're being made redundant and paid off with enough money to buy a car? Or you've been working on that car and the job's now finished?

Or is he a Driver? Is he the Transporter? OMFG Solo is Jason Statham?

Molly have you been at the cakes again?

Nom. Err.. I mean no.

Well there you go, 1 week of "normal" (yet clean other than beer) eating, and using molgrips "eat AFTER the ride" advice - 2lbs weight and 0.5% fat lost.

Huzzah.

Nice. I went back up recently, now I've lost a couple of KGs since upping the riding AND eating more fast carbs at the right times.

PS it's not my advice as such.. it came from a certain forum user...

Is he the name that must not be spoken?

Er yes. Probably 🙂