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Remembrance Sunday-- what was all that about ??
News is a spectator sport. Just wait until it gets really nasty and watch Sky News... There'll be a BREAKING NEWS complete with whooosh! every minute...
BTW these 'rockets' aren't fireworks and the fella killed may be a freedom fighter to some but to others he'll be a murderer. Wish the British media would stop the David and Goliath (reverse irony) bashing of Israel/Jewish nation.
Israel bashing? I note that the Isreali army or govt spokesperson gets free reign but you don't get the same coverage for Hamas.
Historic and constant over the years.
Wish the British media would stop the David and Goliath (reverse irony) bashing of Israel/Jewish nation.
Can you not get Fox news where you are?
Isreal deserves condemnation.
Isreal deserves condemnation.
From your post in the other thread it seems you advocate a bit more than just condemnation.
ohnohesback - Member
Not if the arab world get round to using biological weapons, especailly the sort that can be genetically targeted against jews...
The second quote postulates the inevitable consequence of Israel continuing to behave as it does. I don't want to see that happen, but suspect at some point in the future it will.
Can you not get Fox news where you are?
Why am I watching a foreign networks news output, isn't my own nations heavily subsidised corporation who mantra was impartiality not enough?
Wish the British media would stop the David and Goliath (reverse irony) bashing of Israel/Jewish nation.
You are right we should say nothing at all when a state kills someone else in another state and certainly not when then person they kill is a politician. Poeple say something becaus ewhat they do is wrong and I would imagine illegal under international law. Would you crticise CMD if he assisnated a eader we disliked? Would it be Tory bashing then
I'm not sure there would be uproar. There are 1 million Israelis in the cities within a 35km radius of Gaza that need to run to bomb shelters several times a day, and over the course of the last 7 years, on average once every couple of weeks. It takes under a minute from the sound of a siren for a rocket to fall in those cities. try, for a minute to imagine what you're day to day routine would feel like in those circumstances. you would want military action, you would expect it.
It also doesn't help to compare statistics of deaths on both sidesNo you have not understood. If we invaded Ireland because of the IRA and then we did what Israel had done do you think the irish would
a) attack us
b) Do nothing
As for the daily routine - do you think Israeli actions affects the daily routine of the palestinains?
I am not suggesting that what is being done to Israel is good merley that it is the inevitable consequences of surrounding a country , economically embargoing their country, illegally land grabbing and settling land. It is quite clearly not a road map to peace but a road map to conflict.
It does help show that the suffering is disproportionate on one side and helps counter the points like yours who seem to only want to suggest that the Israelis are suffering. Which side of the divide would you rather live on?
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That there have been more deaths on the Palestinian side doesn't change the fact that they are launching rockets into civilian populations, and oftentimes doing that from locations near schools or religious centers.
I am not defending it merely pointing out that it is inevitable given how they are treated
Al Jabri was taken out in a pin point missile strike when his car was isolated.
Your right Israel did indeed kill a politician in a foreign land with a pin point strike. I am less ceetain why you want us to praise their ability to assinate political figures in foreign lands- you seem to think it is a good thing.
but that doesnt stop the bbc quoting palestinian officials raving about a 'massacre of their women & children'. which is now their default reaction to anything Israel does, regardless of initial cause or reality.
I would say the same about your view tbh you seem to want no criticism of Israel and them to be seen as victims
Yes, israel is militarily a lot stronger than Hamas, but the fact that Hamas have poor quality rockets shouldn't be used to justify the fact they are launching those rockets into civilian populations, or vilify a response to that.
I think they think that Israel has invaded their land etc and they have a right to defend themselves. For sure it is a complicated situation but to try and present Israel as simply defending itself considering the land grabs , the settling the killing of politicians is at best disengenous. The Palestinians do bear some responsibility for how they got here but Israel is not benign in this.
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. While before 2005 Gaza was 'occupied', now it is not, but that will not be enough as Hamas just doesn't recognize Israel. That is the root of the problem. There are no rockets launched form the west bank into Israel - Where Fatah, despite its dissatisfaction with the Israeli government recognizes that peace will involve compromise.
I have already covered the hamas recognizing Israel line and that last peace accord between them in 2008 was broken by Israel bombing them
It is really unhelpful to present either the palesinians as saints or the Israels as victims or vice versa- you seem to think Israel can do no wrong and is the victim here.
It is obvious that both sides do bad things. However were we to invade a country and start claiming its land what would you expect the inhabitants to do?
That is why the onus remains with Israel to get peace rather than the Palestinains
This is not to say that attitudes on both sides do not need to change notris to say that both sides dont do bad things
Highly polarised pro one side they can do no wrong they are the victims views are part of the problem [ on both sides]
Junkyard,
It is clear that civilian populations on both sides are suffering, i dont dispute that..
And i dont think that israel has done no wrong e.g building up settlements on disputed territory is wrong imo - , but the British media does tend bash israel in a David & Goliath like manner.
However were we to invade a country and start claiming its land what would you expect the inhabitants to do
Israel did not 'invade Palestine' the Israeli state was created as part of the 1948 UN partition plan, and there are currently 1.5 million Israeli Arabs - aka Palestinians - living in Israel (within those borders) who have the same rights as any other israeli. They are the ones whos parents/ grandparent did not leave at the time of the partition plan. the ones that did, did so of their own volition (or at the prompting of their arab neighbours who warned them to vacate owing to the war they were about to wage on the new state)
A better historical example of 'invasion of a country' is perhaps the Turkish ivasion of nothern cyprus. yet, the cypriots did not bring to the table the suicide bomber, or rockets fired into civilian populations. Hamas did so both.
I dont know what ceasefire you speak of in 2008. there have been countless 'unofficial' ceasefires since 2005 most following more intense period of exchange of fires..But the fact remains, that since 2005, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there has been a unrelenting trickle of rocket fire from the territory into israel. Gaza is not occupied, the so called 'siege' did not exist after the withdrawl. that was put in place after they kidnapped Gilad Shalit.
You should note there is no 'siege' in the west bank. and Palestinians in the Westbank, can cross into mainland israel through checkpoints.
Finally with respect to this:
You are right we should say nothing at all when a state kills someone else in another state and certainly not when then person they kill is a politician. Poeple say something becaus ewhat they do is wrong and I would imagine illegal under international law
That person is head of the miltary wing of Hamas, and as such responsible for these rocket attacks... Who exactly is Israel supposed to target if not such people? - What if it fired indiscriminately into civilian populations, as Hamas has done today with over 200 rockets... I suspect the media response would be somewhat different...
What if it fired indiscriminately into civilian populations, as Hamas has done today with over 200 rockets... I suspect the media response would be somewhat different...
And yet despite all these rockets, which are targeted at civilians as opposed to the 'surgical targeted strikes' of the Israeli army, the Israelis kill multiple times more civilians than Hamas. Oh I forgot its all their own fault for living near the bad men.
By the way there's plenty of Israelis that are ashamed of the behaviour of their country in regard to this, including many who've served in the Israeli Defence Force. Presumably they're all self-hating jews conned by the biased anti-Semitic media eh?
hora - MemberBTW these 'rockets' aren't fireworks and the fella killed may be a freedom fighter to some but to others he'll be a murderer.
For all I'm uneasy about state assasination, it's not really Ahmed al-Jabaari that I'm bothered about- the other people killed in the strikes were neither freedom fighters or murderers. Especially the toddler and the 7-year-old.
Grum,
And yet despite all these rockets, which are targeted at civilians as opposed to the 'surgical targeted strikes' of the Israeli army, the Israelis kill multiple times more civilians than Hamas. Oh I forgot its all their own fault for living near the bad men.
It is not the fault of the Palestinian people. Its is the fault of Hamas, who control the rockets launch locations, and deliberately choose populated areas to launch from. Hamas are after all, the same people that threw Fatah officials from roof tops when they took over the strip. that is the level of respect they have for their own people.
By the way there's plenty of Israelis that are ashamed of the behaviour of their country in regard to this, including many who've served in the Israeli Defence Force. Presumably they're all self-hating jews conned by the biased anti-Semitic media eh?
No -they are a reflection of the diversity of Israeli society and a western liberal education system that doesn't indoctrinate in hatred.
Its sad that there isn't an equivalent voice in the Palestinian camp providing some balance on their side of the fence. I've never heard any condemnation for the loss of innocent lives that indiscriminate rocket fire can cause, on the contrary, that always seems to be a cause of celebration for them.
but the British media does tend bash israel in a David & Goliath like manner.
I have not seen any research on this but the research for America shows it reports Jewish Israeli deaths 3 – 4 x more than Palestinian ones – do you have any research beyond your perception? happy to provide a source for min
Israel did not 'invade Palestine'
I don’t need a history lesson but are you claiming they have never invaded 🙄
We can all see the picture of what was created, what is there now and where they are settling- did they just give the land to the israelis? I am not sure what we should call this “land grab” using military force other than an invasion
when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there has been a unrelenting trickle of rocket fire from the territory into israel. Gaza is not occupied, the so called 'siege' did not exist after the withdrawl. that was put in place after they kidnapped Gilad Shalit.
So the palestinians can freely move in and out of their country? They can import and export goods freely? There is no shortage of medicine in the area resulting in countless deaths because Israel does not have it under siege. As for occupied i suggest you look at the internationally recognised boundaries and the actual boundaries – if this is what you think is happening there you will think everything is anti Israeli
You should note there is no 'siege' in the west bank.
I would not suggest you use it as an example of how benign Israel is or to show them to be a paragon.[ note the invasion and occupation]
From wiki and please not the 6 day war was started by Israel
In June 1967, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were captured by Israel as a result of the Six-Day War. With the exception of East Jerusalem and the former Israeli-Jordanian no man's land, the West Bank was not annexed by Israel but has remained under Israeli military control and is referred to as Judea and Samaria Area by Israel. Although the 1974 Arab League summitresolution at Rabat designated the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people”, Jordan did not officially relinquish its claim to the area until 1988,[12] when it severed all administrative and legal ties with the West Bank and eventually stripped West Bank Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship.[13]
Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, parts of the West Bank are under full or partial control of the Palestinian Authority. Though 164 nations refer to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as “Occupied Palestinian Territory”,[14][15] the government of Israel holds that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” should be considered occupied territories.[16] After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas.
Finally with respect to this:
You are right we should say nothing at all when a state kills someone else in another state and certainly not when then person they kill is a politician. Poeple say something becaus ewhat they do is wrong and I would imagine illegal under international law
That person is head of the miltary wing of Hamas, and as such responsible for these rocket attacks... Who exactly is Israel supposed to target if not such people? - What if it fired indiscriminately into civilian populations, as Hamas has done today with over 200 rockets... I suspect the media response would be somewhat different...
I am not supporting the use of missiles however the fact remains if you do to a people what Israel has done to them it is inevitable they will be unhappy and attack you - can anyone actually doubt this even you. Do you think killing him has brought Israel closer to peace? Whilst Israel and its supporters ignore this fact and claim everything is justifiable as defence there is no hope of peace [ again of course the attitudes of the Palestinians have to change].
Re the attack
So you are happy to support them killing politicians in foreign lands and the children dieing as collateral damage. It is no surprise you think we are anti Israel as you seem to think they can do no wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations
Here is a long list of people who deserved to die that Israel has killed largely on foreign soil.
Its sad that there isn't an equivalent voice in the Palestinian camp providing some balance on their side of the fence.
I know after all Israel has done for them and this is the gratitude they show them.
I have yet to hear you say anything bad about what Israel has done
Israel right or wrong would seem to sum up your attitude
You should note there is no 'siege' in the west bank.
It's true... A siege is when you surround a fortification trying to get in. I don't know what the word is for when you build a fortification to trap people inside.
Junkyard,
I think you are the one who is guilty of thinking the Palestinians can do no wrong. I have already said, i don't agree with Israel building settlements on disputed territory, and i think had they made more of an effort to refrain from doing that and sit down with Fatah, Hamas would not be quite so belligerent today. And no, i don't think that killing Jabri necessarily brings Israel closer to peace in the long term, just as punching someone in the head is not likely to make you a new friend. But if he's been kicking you for the past hour, that's probably what your going to do.
You don't need a history lesson from me, it is quite clear you can google things and type in the results, but i would suggest that you be a little less selective when you paste on here.
From wiki and please not the 6 day war was started by Israel
Yes, that's one way to put it. Another would be that Israel started the war in a pre-emptive strike. and yet another way would be that Israel started the war in a pre-emptive strike, in the context of imminent threats of annihilation from surrounding countries.
how about this for context:
"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood" - President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Mar 1965."“All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel” - Cairo Radio May 16th 1967.
" “Our forces are now ready.. to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland of Palestine. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united. I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of annihilation.”- Syria’s Defence Minister Hafez Assad (later to be Syria’s President). May 20th 1967.
“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map” - President Aref of Iraq, May 31st 1967.
You see, the Arabs themselves have a lot to blame for the plight of the Palestinians.
And the land itself was not invaded in 1948... when the UN partition was made..Jews had been buying land as part of the Zionist movement in what was a geographical area called 'Palestine' since the turn of the 20th Century. And the Palestinians (native Arabs to the land) that were there did not complain when the swamps were drained, and an infrastructure built (as i say above there are 1.5 million Arab Israelis descendents of those who stayed put).
The British Government itself recognized that fact in their Balfour Declaration in 1917!. Google it. enlighten yourself.
You see, Hamas is still fundamentally opposed to the idea of Israel. and their rhetoric today (together with Iran's) echos exactly what had been said in the run up to previous attacks on Israel (notable the first Israeli war of independence (1949) and the six day war (1967)
Until they understand that Israel has a right to exist, you have to expect Israel to try to protect itself. And it is not a forgone conclusion that a reasonable response to that is to pummel civilians with rockets. And if you understood anything of the above, you would understand you are doing the Palestinians no favours by suggesting that
.
Yes damn those evil terrorist Arabs and their aggressive rhetoric. Thanks god the modern, liberal, enlightened Israelis would never stoop so low.
Interior Minister Eli Yishai was quoted by Israel's Haaretz newspaper as saying that the goal of the operation was "to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages".
By the way, I'm sure there are Palestinians opposed to the violent tactics of Hamas, but they don't fit into the convenient media narrative of shouty fundamentalist Muslims so are largely ignored by the media.
anyone giving this any credence..?
[url= http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article37585.html ]phase one Iran nuclear attack[/url]
I think whether Israel has a right to exist these days is a bit of a moot point. It does, it's powerfull and has powerful allies. Hamas isn't going to achieve much by constanly kicking it excpet to get their own civilians killed and infrastructure destoyed. It's not a case or right or wrong, people in Northern Ireland and South Africa finally wised up to that. Once you're in the mess they're in both sides have to slowly back away from the confrontation.
The reality is Hamas has a lot more to lose.
Interesting yunki - no idea how accurate it is.
stumpyjon - well according to this guy the Hamas leader they killed was well aware of the need for a proper peace deal.
Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.
"I think that they have made a strategic mistake," Baskin said, an error "which will cost the lives of quite a number of innocent people on both sides."
From Haaretz, quoted here (Haaretz article is behind a pay wall)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/ahmed-jabari-truce-hamas_n_2142045.html
grum: Yes damn those evil terrorist Arabs and their aggressive rhetoric. Thanks god the modern, liberal, enlightened Israelis would never stoop so low.Interior Minister Eli Yishai was quoted by Israel's Haaretz newspaper as saying that the goal of the operation was "to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages".
Fair enough grum. Eli Yishai is an oaf. He's an oaf and the head of the right wing religious party, Shas, who are fortunately still a minority. Shas and Eli Yisahai are about as far away from modern liberal as you can get!
Still the point remains, Israel is diverse - and unfortunately for the modern liberals it includes a good portion of nutters. At least they are not running the country alone, though the down side of pure proportional representation is that they do get a say (though that's also the reason there are Arab ministers in Israel's parliament)
Sadly for the Pals though, the strip is run exclusively by a bunch of nutters, and though they might have been elected, its run as a totalitarian regime now.
By the way, I'm sure there are Palestinians opposed to the violent tactics of Hamas, but they don't fit into the convenient media narrative of shouty fundamentalist Muslims so are largely ignored by the media.
I would agree with the first part, though i think the media narrative it doesn't fit is the narrative of dis proportionality which always seems to dominate.
When people are continuously persecuted, is it any surprise that hardliners eventually get elected? There are numerous examples of this, some very close to home. I don't need to list them out for you.
Israel's (for the umpteenth time) disproportionate actions, for which you are being an apologist, do not strike me as the response of a government representative of the diversity about which you crow so much.
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If this map is correct the truth of the situation seems pretty stark to me.
I think you are the one who is guilty of thinking the Palestinians can do no wrong.
I suggest you re read my post. I am happy to be explicit once more and say the attitudes of the Palestinians need to change in order to get lasting peace. They kill and bomb innocent israelies and it is wrong. I await you being as forthright about Israel.
I have already said, i don't agree with Israel building settlements on disputed territory, and i think had they made more of an effort to refrain from doing that and sit down with Fatah,
They have not stopped so more of an effort is to slow down 😯 Surely it is within the power of the modern diverse vibrant liberal democracy of Israel to do this so we are left with the fact they choose to illegally settle whilst you praise them for ignoring international law but slower. Yes my view is somewhat distorted good point
Here have some more research to get upset about 😉
The 27 ministers of foreign affairs of the European Union published a report in May 2012 strongly denouncing policies of the State of Israel in the West Bank and finding that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal and "threaten to make a two-state solution impossible."[153]
You don't need a history lesson from me, it is quite clear you :Dcan google things and type in the results, but i would suggest that you be a little less selective when you paste on here.
Nice put down , seriously that is a good one.
You see, the Arabs themselves have a lot to blame for the plight of the Palestinians.
Dont disagree but what you have to do is persuade me that the current tactics of the Israel govt are going to lead to peace and a softening of their attitude to the state of Israel....good luck with that one.
And the land itself was not invaded in 1948
Good date care to see the same statement about the current state n the ground as that is what we are discussing
The British Government itself recognized that fact in their Balfour Declaration in 1917!. Google it. enlighten yourself.
Less good put down 😕 I am familiar with it thanks – pointless saying anything as you will think I googled it. Shall i just make unreferenced assertions instead would that be a stronger debating technique? Perhaps I should accuse you of reading stuff on the Internet and use it as a put down. I mean it would make sense to do this on a forum
You see, Hamas is still fundamentally opposed to the idea of Israel. and their rhetoric today (together with Iran's) echos exactly what had been said in the run up to previous attacks on Israel (notable the first Israeli war of independence (1949) and the six day war (1967)
Yes any day now Iraq and Palestine could attack IsraelI SO IT MUST STRIKE NOW - are you for real? It's not like Israel is in the media saying it will start a ground war in Gaze or saiyng that it will bomb/attack iraq over the nuclear issue bit these two are threatening israel..... seriously this is such severe Israel right or wrong with a spin of events so ludicrous its practically fiction.
Until they understand that Israel has a right to exist, you have to expect Israel to try to protect itself. And it is not a forgone conclusion that a reasonable response to that is to pummel civilians with rockets. And if you understood anything of the above, you would understand you are doing the Palestinians no favours by suggesting that
I am not sure what you are suggesting I am saying here do i need to say Israel has the right to exist to satisfy you? It does but that does not mean anything and everything it does under this banner is justifiable, defendable, appropriate or right. Furthermore what it is currently doing is most unlikely to be the strong foundations that will lead to peace.
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Seems to be reported rather one sided this one..
Reports headline, a rocket fired at Israel followed by Gaza hit by hundreds of missiles.
I may be uneducated on this subject but Israel seems like the aggressor and the british media seems to be reporting it poorly.
is that how it is?
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Hmmm - in October alone, 116 rockets and 55 mortar shells were launched against Israel in 92 separate attacks... over 800 fired this year.
Zulu-Eleven - Member
Blah blah blah blah blah blah
DD without the Big Hitters he is lost without someone to take the bait.
Lets keep it that way
Thats right, if everyone agreed with the lefties, life would be so much easier, eh Junky
Face it, the death toll (from Gazan sources) stands at 72, which is a little hard to square with claims of "systematic genocide" - even if all those [i]were[/i] killed by Israeli action, rather than by Palestinian rockets falling short and killing their own civilians.
It's just crap isn't it. Loads of people getting killed for what?? It's just really depressing when you think about it.:(
I'm not going to link to it, but there's an image on Twitter of four young kids - siblings - who died in Gaza today. I look at them, and then my two-year-old sleeping next door, and despair at humanity.
I don't know mate, but we are better than this. fighting over a bit of land/oil/whatever and killing each other. It's all about power. We need to grow up as a human species.
I feel sorry for the ordinary Gazan's trying to go about there life and held captive buy a bunch of prehistoric religious nut jobs who think that lobbing a few rockets into Israel will solve all there problems and for those Israelis who could do without that small percentage of other religious nut jobs determined to claim as much of their 'ancestral' home while not actually bearing any of the burden for their stupidity.
Any guesses as to whom is supplying Hamas with rockets?
Does it make any difference?
Any guesses as to whom is supplying Israel with 3billion of aid a year?, or the majority of their weapon systems?.
Does that make any difference either?
Oh i dunno?.....state sponsored/sanctioned war crimes by the usa? - If i was palestinian and spent my entire life suffering under a regime that is directly supported by the usa i guess i'd consider them a legitimate target.
I've been stuck in the car on a singletrack road due to a hellish flood for the past 6 hrs, soaking wet and freezing through and i'm finally in the door and about to head back out at 7am to go and do a 12hr shift at my old workplace to help them out with xmas orders so i'm rather pi$$ed off and liable to write what i genuinely believe regarding the israeli/palestine situation so i'd better just walk away from the keyboard before i get banned, or worse/locked up.
And breathe..........
fighting over a bit of land/oil/whatever and killing each other. It's all about power. We need to grow up as a human species.
we haven't changed in thousands of years of "civilisation" we wont't start now. Being aggressive over territory and killing competition is a fundamental hard-wired animal response.
we are just apes in clothes, there are no higher ideals
Maybe if the supplier of rockets to Hamas was stopped then Israel would stop firing their rockets. I remember someone once saying let sleeping dogs lie - keep whacking it with a stick and expect the worse!
But that wouldn't stop Israel grabbing yet more land and water. No doubt the shares of the US arms companies are doing well anticipating the repeat business and restocking...
Maybe if the supplier of rockets to Hamas was stopped then Israel would stop firing their rockets
Maybe if Israel didn't operate such aggressive expansion policies (lebensraum?), Hamas wouldn't feel compelled to act with violence.
How anyone can possible equate the actions ofHamas militants with what the IDF are doing beggars beleif. Keep beleiving the bullshit you're being fed. Of course Israel are the innocent victims. Of course.
A man is given a home with a garden next to people who have lived there for a very long time.
Man decides to take section of neighbour’s garden.
Neighbours then subjected to campaign of brutality and inhumane treatment lasting decades.
Both sides are clearly as bad as each other and to suggest anything else would be ridiculous.
Ninety-four Palestinians and three Israelis have died since Wednesday.
Maybe if the supplier of rockets to Hamas was stopped then Israel would stop firing their rockets. I remember someone once saying let sleeping dogs lie - keep whacking it with a stick and expect the worse
In what sense are they sleeping - they are still doing land grabs, still keeping them in , stopping them from having medicine etc. Seriously in what sense is Israel just sleeping ?
PS Love thy enemy as thyself and all that eh
I dont get thi sargument
If i want to take a peacful people and turn then in to irrate terrorists who elect extremistst and bomb legitimate sates then what i would suggest to spain, for example, would be to annex Portugal illegally, start land grabs, build on their land, put an economic emabrgo on them and dont give them basics like medicine or water. Obvioulsy when the portugeses get a little upset by this and act as terrorists dont forget to call them names, blame them and then bomb the living shit out of them to keep them in the dark ages.
To create terrorists and discontent amongst the masses all you need to do is to treat the country and people as Israel has treated the Palestinians, israel claims to want peace yet its poilicies ensure it will never ever happen.
Have the Palestinians ever been peaceful?
Has Israel ever been peaceful?
Lovely allusion comparing the israeli government to the nazis there mike. I don't think we can quite say they're on a par. Even their most horrific single act (Sabra/Shatila) is not quite on the level of the pogroms committed in Eastern Europe.
I think this thread needs that list of all the UN resolutions of which Israel is in breach. Can anyone on a desktop find it?
Can someone also provide a list of all the terrorist attacks carried out by the Palestinians or organisation aligned with their cause also, just to remain some sort of balance?
Both lists should provide a good example of how pointless this all is and that violence general doesnt resolve anything in the long run.
I dont think anyone is trying to say violence is great however the fact remains that Israel is the single greatest violator of UN resolutions and this ignores the fact that the US vetoes many of those against Israel- it is certainly not something to be proud of and would suggest they are not that nice to the Palestinians.
However wee seem to have descended into a childish well he hit me so I hit him debate neither side is perfect and the issue is what will bring about peace
can we actually try and have an adult conversation where we accept that both sides do bad things and suggest some possibly solutions rather than just blindly supporting one side and blaiming the other?
Again I repeat that what Israel is doing is the perfect way to breed terrorism and extremism would an Isaralie supporter/defende however you wish to be labelled explain to me how it will bring about peace?
Lovely allusion comparing the israeli government to the nazis there mike. I don't think we can quite say they're on a par.
i wasn't suggesting they are. i was merely comparing expansionist policies. Other than the numbers involved and the direct method of removal of people, there is little difference between the two.
And before anyone goes off on one and accuses me of being an anti-semite: 'lebensraum' was the exact word used by a Jewish friend thisw weekend, durning a conversation about the situation in Palestine.
Other than the numbers involved and the direct method of removal of people, there is little difference between the two.
So you mean other than the actual details there's little to choose between them. Fair enough.
If the Israelis were the same as the Nazi-era Germans, they'd have taken ALL of Palestine, purged every single undesirable from the area and effectively enslaved the rest. The rhetoric on this issue is sky-high as it is, not sure exaggeration brings anything to the argument. I'm no supporter of Israel, far from it, but maybe a cut on hyperbole would help the argument a little or at least make it less polarised.
maybe a cut on hyperbole would help the argument a little or at least make it less polarised.
Maybe have a word with this charming character then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effi_Eitam
Eitam has called Israeli Arabs a "cancer": "[T]he Israeli Arabs are in large measure the ticking bomb beneath the whole democratic Israeli order inside the [1967] Green Line. Even today, in the Galilee and the Negev, a de facto autonomy of theirs is being created, which could in practice turn Israel into the bubble of Metropolitan Tel Aviv .… Therefore, I say that the State of Israel today faces an existential threat that is characterized by being an elusive threat, and elusive threats by their nature resemble cancer. Cancer is a type of illness in which most of the people who die from it die because they were diagnosed too late. By the time you grasp the size of the threat, it is already too late to deal with it.".[11] Commenting on this, the veteran Israeli journalist, Akiva Eldar, wrote in Haaretz, "The fact that the Nazis were especially fond of this [cancer] metaphor is probably not lost on the general." [12] In 2004, Eitam called the Palestinians "dark forces" and said "We will have to kill them all" [13]
Eitam has used the concept of Lebensraum as the basis for his arguments that all Arabs and Palestinians should be persuaded or forced to leave Israel and the Palestinian Territories.[14]
^ Graham, Stephen (2004). Cities, War and Terrorism: Towards an Urban Geopolitics (Studies in Urban and Social Change). Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 204. ISBN 1405115750. "Eitam argues that, ultimately, Israel should strive to force or 'persuade' all Arabs and Palestinians to leave Israel and the occupied territories -- to be accommodated in Jordan and the Sinai (Egypt).....Eitam has even explicitly used the German concept of Lebensraum (living space) – a cornerstone of the Holocaust -- to underpin his arguments."
Oh come on. If all you did was post quotes from extremist nutters on both sides of the debate you'd be here for weeks posting nothing but bollocks. Plenty of Israelis and Palestinians (and their respective supporters) advocate the absolute destruction of the other in terms that invoke the holocaust. Doesn't mean you have to.
I can see why folk make comaprisons with the nazis but it is ott
It does seem like they [ humans in general seem guilty of this] have leanrt nothing from history and it is hard to argue that they are not persecuting the palestinians a sthey were for centuries - driven from their homes [1948] and banned etc.
Shameful for humanity whatever the religious view is
I shall leave you to the hyperbole
Mikeoconnor you need to raise your game. you find one quote from a has-been religeious extremist that was once in the knesset, and another from you're 'jewish friend' a that's how you make your case? Your bringing about as much to this debate as deadlydarcy. You both need to spend more time on your bike imho.
Junkyard. - you should at least keep up the pretense of being objective. can you really see why 'folk make the comparisons with nazis' or are you just being nice to mike? I had a little hope for you, but now am not so sure.
you don't need to say that israel has a right to exist to satisfy me. Any reasonable person would take that for granted. The point is that [b]Hamas [/b]need to think that. Because until they do, there is no one for Israel to talk to vis a viz gaza. Hamas refuse to talk to any representative of Israel, as they simply don't recognize them.
And its not that Palestine 'could attack' - they did attack. the fact is that they blew up an army Jeep on the israel side of the border, and then fired ~50 rockets into israel's south [b]before[/b] Jabri was targeted. Yes, maybe Israel could have ignored those 50 rockets... Well, they ignored the first 10, then the second 10 and so on. in fact, they've ignored thousands of them over the past 7 years.. and so? has it bought them closer to peace? - no. they need to talk. But they can't talk, because Hamas wont talk.
Your historical narrative is flawed, but nevertheless the jist of your argument seems to follow. something like: [i]'The Palestinians have been abused since 1948 by Israel, and therefore even though it may not be right, we should expect them to try to blow up Israeli civilians'[/i]
I mean correct me if i missed something in all your sarcastic waffle, but isn't that basically it?
sorry, that's a sh*t argument.
Here's mine:
Israel needs to stop building on disputed land. [b]Hamas need to recognize Israel[/b]. Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objections. Israel has a right to try to stop the rockets fire from Gaza taking necessary precautions to protect civilians. Zero rocket fired should be rewarded by appropriate relaxation of security measures. Those are the preconditions for being able to start negotiations.
oh.. and Hamas need to admit that fajr5 is a stupid name for a rocket.
Incidentally, thanks for complementing my put down. i can assure u thats 100% original- post ride creativity i think.
samj - Member
But they can't talk, because Hamas wont talk.
Wasn't Ahmed al-Jabari one of Hamas' negotiators and isn't it alleged that he had truce papers (for discussion/negotiation?) in his possession at the time of the missile attack?
Genuine question - I don't know.
JY - I smiled and thought of you when I read this today:
I guess if you keep using sticks to poke at the Nile crocodile then the result will be inevitable ...
There you go poking at the crocodile ...[img] 
[/img]
teamhurtmore,
I think someone posted a link to an article on that above. Clearly no one knows for what he had in his possession. I'm sure that there are also argument that israel had been plotting this in retaliation for Gilat shalit abduction for a while.
The truth is, there have been a number of informal truces between Israel and Hamas which periodically stops the rocket fire (there was one after cast lead, there will surely be one after the current round) - these are generally done via an intermediary.
And while these provide temporary respite, they dont get to the heart of the matter. - which is that the only long term solution is for Hamas to acknowledge Israel's right to exist..
The following is a quote from Hamas charter for example. (my bold)
..the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. [b]For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion[/b]
ie its all or nothing.
Thats the problem. Its at the heart of what they stand for..
Israel needs to stop building on disputed land. Hamas need to recognize Israel. Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objections. Israel has a right to try to stop the rockets fire from Gaza taking necessary precautions to protect civilians. Zero rocket fired should be rewarded by appropriate relaxation of security measures. Those are the preconditions for being able to start negotiations.
What tactics do you think Hamas/the Palestinians should use in order to stop their land/water supplies being further annexed - and how successful do you think they will be?
What tactics do you think Hamas/the Palestinians should use in order to stop their land/water supplies being further annexed - and how successful do you think they will be?
As i've said, and you've quoted. Hamas need to recognize Israel, Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objectives.
This is a pre-requesite for any hope of peaceful success. I think they will be far more successful this way than by armed resistance which hasn't done them any favors till now and has led to unnecessary loss of civilian lives.
one more for JY et al:
Its on Cast lead, though not much has changed...
Your historical narrative is flawed, but nevertheless the jist of your argument seems to follow. something like: 'The Palestinians have been abused since 1948 by Israel, and therefore even though it may not be right, we should expect them to try to blow up Israeli civilians'I mean correct me if i missed something in all your sarcastic waffle, but isn't that basically it?
sorry, that's a sh*t argument.
You know you have missed something but if that is what you are going to do and just say bias at me I really dont see the point in debate - would you prefer i call you names and call your view waffle and shit?
Its an emotive issue but I have no desire to add to the collective hate here and start insulting one another so you can have your one sided insults - no doubt you think you are provoked and only being defensive and protecting yourself 😉
PS Is it your view that if a country was treated like this by another - lets use Spain and Portugal as I did earlier - they would not have armed resistance against said country? No resistance movement, no increase in extremism etc
Now that is a shit argument.
JY - I smiled and thought of you when I read this today:
I think it makes a fair point re bias tbh [ i missed the report which is most unlike me - sometimes i forget to switch the radio back on after i have switched it off for thought for the day.
We have to accept that Hamas is attacking Israel in reports - neither side is a pargon here. We also have to accept that Israel attacks are far more deadly than Hamas ones and it will always get more coverage because it is more deadly
I suppose i could have asked if Hamas had paused overnight as it may actually be technically true and then i could be the biased character neutral sanj suggests I am
Been trying to find a table I saw on twitter yesterday that showed major offensives against Gaza and how they coincided with the re-election of the government in Israel. Will try and find it today.
edit:
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Mikeoconnor you need to raise your game. you find one quote from a has-been religeious extremist that was once in the knesset, and another from you're 'jewish friend' a that's how you make your case? Your bringing about as much to this debate as deadlydarcy. You both need to spend more time on your bike imho.
so, because we say things you don't like, we shouldn't be part of the discussion then? Why? Do you not like your views being challenged? And why do you put 'Jewish friend' in quotes? What are you suggesting?
The sentiments regarding 'lebensraum' aren't exlusive to Effi Eitam. The term has been used by many commentators on the Palestinian situation, as well as other expansionist policies employed by other nations elsewhere. It's simply a word, and fits this situation extremely well. I could quite easily just speak of expansionism and it would seem less contentious, and perhaps i am being provocative by using such an expression, but the fundamental philosophy remains the same. Israel is invading it's neighbour and driving the inhabitants out. This is simply a fact.
Much is spoken of the angry and violent rhetoric used by Hamas; not enough is being said about the vitriol being spouted by certain figures in Israel.
Interior Minister Eli Yishai said Operation Pillar of Defense would continue and likely be expanded, a reference to the possibility that a ground offensive has already been given the go-ahead.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
His words were relatively mild compared to some of the comments that have been coming out of Israel in recent days.
Journalist, Gilad Sharon, the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in an editorial in the Jerusalem Post on Sunday called for Gaza to be flattened like the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.
“We need to flatten all of Gaza. The American’s didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough – so they hit Nagasaki too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire,” ranted Sharon.
As the former Prime Minister’s son publicly urged the military to wipe Gaza off the map, a member of the Knesset and the National Unity Party, Michael Ben-Ari, called for Israeli soldiers to kill Gazans without thought or mercy.
“There are no innocents in Gaza, don’t let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives – mow them down!” it was reported on the Hakol HaYehudi website.
He also told soldiers to ignore Goldstone; in reference to the UN commissioned Goldstone report on Israel’s 2008-2009 invasion of Gaza, which found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs.
so, it's not just 'has been religious extremeists' who are spouting such bile, but some very powerful and dangerous figures.
http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-hamas-war-103/
But of course; it's Hamas who are the agressors, against a nation with massive military superiority and nuclear (as well as chemical and biological) weapons capability. Obviously.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
It is terrible to see the most persecuted race in history [ well probably] get a state and then become the most persecuting state in recent history[ probably]
It says something trully terrible about the human condition and this saddens me.
To be fair samj, you read just like I'd expect a Zionist to read. You have a certain point of view based on your view that Israel is merely defending itself, and you appear to discount (just two examples) land grabbing and disproportionate "retaliation" (inverted commas there because let's face it, though of course you won't, a lot of Israel's actions aren't retaliative at all) as beside the point, like somehow they don't matter...and that Israel's right to exist must be paramount and recognised by whoever is under their jackboot.
No matter what point of view is put to you, you come back to the same set of Zionistic principles. So I dunno fella...what's the point in "debating" with you at all? You blindly support a nation which is in breach of god knows how many UN resolutions and acts as the neighbourhood bully by dint of its unstinting support by the US, who surprisingly don't appear to pay much attention to the UN either.
I am perfectly aware of the differences between "Jewishness", "Zionism" and "Israel", but how a country that is supposedly a haven from persecution, then persecutes those who it doesn't see as fitting in with its expansionist policies is beyond my understanding. The comparisons to Naziism and the Holocaust are of course hyperbolic - but that they're used at all should make Israelis and Zionists both wake up a bit.
Sorry if my thorough distaste for you and your type is "not bringing much to the debate", but there you go. Most of the world hates what Israel is doing. And for good reason. But of course, they're all naive and uninformed aren't they?
how a country that is supposedly a haven from persecution, then persecutes those who it doesn't see as fitting in with its expansionist policies is beyond my understanding.
The abused go on to become the abuser - sadly pretty common.
You blindly support a nation which is in breach of god knows how many UN resolutions and acts as the neighbourhood bully by dint of its unstinting support by the US, who surprisingly don't appear to pay much attention to the UN either.
Ah yes but the UN resolutions are all part of an anti-semitic conspiracy within the UN, apparently. Because as we know anyone who ever criticises anything to do with Israel is a rabid anti-semite.
The abused go on to become the abuser - sadly pretty common.
Aye, too true grummybear, but in this case, it really takes that statement to a new level.
Most of the world hates what Israel is doing. And for good reason. But of course, they're all naive and uninformed aren't they?
No, not uninformed. Misinformed, and Naive -Yes, because it's easy to feel good with yourselves about sympathizing with the palestinian's plight than to engage your mind and think beyond 'the nasty aggressive Israel and the poor helpless Palestinians'
Because as we know anyone who ever criticises anything to do with Israel is a rabid anti-semite
not necessarily. but do you seriously think this problem would get as much attention if Gaza was full of Sunni Arabs, and Israel full of Shias?
Do you even have an opinion on the situation in Syria? where are all the emotive forum arguments on that?! Daily summary executions, certain army attacks on civilians and a death toll of what? 15,000+ .. Arabs killing Arabs. very sad, but jews killing arabs.. an outrage! always a headline... its the 'persecuted doing the persecuting'...its 'nazism'! Yes all very proportional.
so, it's not just 'has been religious extremists' who are spouting such bile, but some very powerful and dangerous figures.
Yes, you are right. but they are still the minority. However hawkish some of those comments, the government was not elected on a platform to flatten Gaza, and the overwhelming majority of israelis dont want that. Hamas on the other hand has the destruction of Israel and the reclamation of all land from Jordan to the Mediterranean as its founding principle.
JY - fair play to your debating point above. you have your opinion, and it certainly seems to have more support than mine here at any rate! I agree that no side is a paragon, but i don't agree in your historical analysis, and i do think the vast majority of the blame for the current situation lies with the PA / Arab leagues mismanagement of the situation.
This guy sums it up quite well from my pov.
but of course, you all knew what 'my type' had to say about that already...
🙂
not necessarily. but do you seriously think this problem would get as much attention if Gaza was full of Sunni Arabs, and Israel full of Shias?
Do you even have an opinion on the situation in Syria? where are all the emotive forum arguments on that?! Daily summary executions, certain army attacks on civilians and a death toll of what? 15,000+ .. Arabs killing Arabs. very sad, but jews killing arabs.. an outrage! always a headline... its the 'persecuted doing the persecuting'...its 'nazism'! Yes all very proportional.
Yes I think what is happening in Syria is awful, but it had plenty of media attention in the early stages, sadly it seems the news organisations got bored. Anything seen as 'internal' or civil war seems to get less attention. There has been plenty of discussion of it on here btw.
The other main difference is that Syria isn't a close ally of the west that receives millions and millions of dollars in military aid (AFAIK?), and Syria isn't constantly and loudly claiming to be an enlightened, modern democratic state that values the principles of human rights.
Has Syria ever invaded and occupied foreign territory? Do they have a 'secret' nuclear bomb, while vociferously arguing against anyone else in the region being allowed them, while also going around murdering foreign scientists? Does Syria shamelessly invoke a past atrocity to justify their current illegal and immoral behaviour, and accuse anyone that criticises them of being racists? Does Syria have extremely powerful and well funded lobbyists exerting their influence on western governments?
You might find some of those are reasons why Israel gets more attention than Syria.
Thanks for your posts on this samj. Nice to read a different point of view rather than the usual attention seekers. Good work fella.
🙄
Misinformed, and Naive -Yes, because it's easy to feel good with yourselves about sympathizing with the palestinian's plight than to engage your mind and think beyond 'the nasty aggressive Israel and the poor helpless Palestinians'
Normally, I'd say this was staggering in its presumptuousness, but I'm not surprised at all.
And as for bloodynora's post, wot richc said.
Thank you bloodynora.
grum: exactly. Israel has a 'secret' nuclear bomb. On the other hand (the making of) Iran's bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to 'wipe israel of the face of the map' with it!
Are you surprised they argue vociferously against it? Is that your moral equality? The fact the equivalent of the entire jewish population of israel had been wiped out just 3 generations ago is, i think , a justified reason to be concerned, and not some 'shameless' excuse to act in a certain way.
and about those well funded lobbyists.. you think the 1.5 billion Arabs that are sitting on most of the world's oil supplies pushing the Arab league agenda don't have any power?
Or is it possible that some people in western administrations have come to similar conclusions without being bought out?