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I see the practised response to financial difficulty is being proposed once again...
I suppose that we are all in this together, but it does feel somewhat disappointing.
Yep, the sector that has been working hardest to fight our way out of coronavirus will be the go to sector to now save money. It stings.
They wanted to get us back anyway for challenging their pension reforms in court. They’d have found some sort of excuse whatever happened.
I don't think they'd dare, they'd be buried at the next election
Nah, especially if there is a proper recession then spite will replace any good will towards the NHS. "Sure, I used to go out and clap for them every Thursday, but I've lost my job/had my hours cut, why should they get a pay rise when the rest of us are suffering? We're the ones that pay their wages".
Or the same "the economy is just like your personal credit card" rubbish that means that "reluctantly we've all got to tighten our belts" will come out again.
Yep, the sector that has been working hardest to fight our way out of coronavirus will be the go to sector to now save money.
While I don’t disagree that there are a significant chunk of people within the public sector who have been working like heroes for the last couple of months, that is like saying that everyone in the private sector are fat cats.
While the usual minority will carry on lining their pockets I can’t see that many people will be getting pay rises for the next few years
I won't have a job as of the 15th May.
Public or private sectors, we're all ****ed.
The bill for this shitstorm will be massive.
It's inflicting the wrong kind of economic damage. The kind of economic damage that means we get blue passports is acceptable, but the economic damage that stops people dying is not.
At least we're not going to inflict both kinds on ourselves at the same time...
I suppose that we are all in this together, but it does feel somewhat disappointing.
Everyone I've talked to in private sector who might still have a job has had some kind of pay freeze, cut, alteration etc, don't think you're entitled to have such a problem alone.
The bill for this shitstorm will be massive.
This.
I'd say tax rises and pay freezes are imminent. This whole thing (and it's not over yet) will fluff the economy for years to come.
Just for info.
I appreciate the impact on everyone is going to be severe and I'm thankful to be in a relatively safe position, but clapping on a Thursday can get in the sea now.
Of course there's going to be public sector pay freezes - they're Tories, it's in their nature. Like foxes in the hen house or vampires in the disco.
clapping on a Thursday can get in the sea now
It was absolute distraction propaganda. A load of BS.
When that started they thought the Nightingales were going to be overflowing in a couple of weeks.
I can't see how the NHS are going avoid being prosecuted for corporate manslaughter. If I sent people into a toxic atmosphere, without BA sets etc. and they died, I would end up in court pretty quickly. Can't see the difference from these medics and care workers that are now dead.
I'm not sure I can see a situation where I can see my myself being comfortable writing code to ensure that thousands of businesses get grants to keep their heads above water one minute, and angling for an 'it's not fair' pay rise the next, whilst still keeping my good pension, flexitime, and the myriad of other benefits.
Utterly pi**ed off when I read this today, still not a pay rise since this lot came to power with Cameron and Osborne, if I change T&Cs I am worse off if the axe comes. And I agree not a great message to the country, penalise those that continued to work throughout. But the message is wrong, by all means let's have tax rises etc, especially changing tax law around corporates, but it is wrong to continue to target public sector staff just because they can. Again that smacks of a continuation of their ideology of a smaller state than saving money. As is clear with finding £330bn for this.
Can someone ping a link pls? My Google-fu is weak today. Or maybe I'm distracted by the myriad of benefits I get as a Civil Servant, and the glamorous surroundings a 2% total consolidated payrise in the past decade* has afforded me 😀 .
* Excluding salary increases through promotion
This is all a distraction for the tories with what their aims are - which is to destroy the public sector in this country. for certain austerity will rise again. It was a political choice as can be seen by the fact they found the magic money tree for covid and its as certain as anything else a further attack on our pensions and T&C will be coming. they have already half wrecked the NHS pension scheme which is in huge surplus and by making it less attractive to new recruits they can make sure it appears to expensive and in deficit
One thing we can guarantee from all of this whether you are private or public sector, is that the working man will be paying for this for a long time (along with the billions spunked on Brexit), as usual the only people that will come out of this smiling are the likes of Dyson and JCB, those party donor companies that got the contracts out of this when smaller companies who were already stocked or set up with medical supplies were ignored. (Along with some bike shops and the people that flog weight plates and gym gear!)
At the next elections, those that vote Tory time and time again, stay home, save the NHS, save lives.
the NHS pension scheme which is in huge surplus
Where is that information? Have you got the figures?
My pension was screwed over when we were moved without choice from the NHS scheme to a new civil service scheme, yes it was 'gold-plated' as some like to call it, but I paid a shed load into it, which I didn't mind doing at all. But to have that halved overnight with a far less attractive benefit when I eventually get to draw on it is a slap in the face.
Gobuchal - it takes in a million+ a year more than it pays out. Figures easily available
17 years in the civil service, and I missed out on the fabled "gold plated" pension scheme, and what I started then has been frozen and replaced and replaced with a lower value one.
Many new civil service contracts no longer have flexitime etc as it moves to a 7 day week shift rota - DWP and HMRC especially.
We've just had a three year deal imposed with a relatively attractive headline figure, but cuts to the Flexi time, overtime, and other benefits. The things that made up for the pay gap are disappearing.
I'll happily take a pay freeze when MPs do. So we're all in this together
the NHS pension scheme which is in huge surplus
Where is that information? Have you got the figures?
I've seen a lot of bollocks on here in my time 🙂
The NHS pension scheme is funded out of general taxation - there is no pot, there is no surplus
Thankyou, goodnight
It is inevitable that there will have to be tax rises (for everyone not just higher rates) and yes pay freezes too. In addition there will likely be changes to NI for the the self employed too. Whilst it is handy for the Tory government to blame "The Virus" for a few more ideological changes, tell me what other options are there? Real ones not just hand wavey "tax the rich" ones. We have all benefited from the intervention, granted some more than others, but the bill for that will have to be paid.
Try reading page 38
From the internet “Parentheses/brackets are often used to indicate that a number should be subtracted in a calculation. If the bottom line of a set of accounts is shown in parentheses/brackets this is often because a loss has been made. A loss is incurred when the expenditure is greater than the income.“
After three days of strike action this year, we (sixth form college teachers) have finally had our September 2019 pay deal agreed. (After no rises for 8 years or so, we've had two or three years of below inflation rises.) It might show up in our June pay packet.
17 years in the civil service, and I missed out on the fabled “gold plated” pension scheme, and what I started then has been frozen and replaced and replaced with a lower value one.
Sorry, massive pension nerd here.
Premium (the scheme that replaced PCSPS and started in 2002) is pretty much gold-plated. And even in Nuvos (2007 onwards) retirement age is still fixed at 65.
Alpha (the current one) is significantly poorer than those two, but still infinitely better than you could get from Scottish Widows and their ilk.
page 7 'As the NHS Pension Scheme is an unfunded scheme, these liabilities are underwritten by the Exchequer. '
Prediction: small pay rises for NHS staff… offset by a bigger direct taxation rise that will apply both to them and the rest of us (including non-NHS public sector staff) who are unlikely to have pay rises. So all worse off, but political claims can be made about both NHS investment and NHS pay rises (mostly clawed back via taxes on income).
Alpha (the current one) is significantly poorer than those two, but still infinitely better than you could get from Scottish Widows and their ilk.
Yes, that's the one I can't get till state pension age and will form well over half my CS pension.
If it's all so cushy as a public servant, how come you aren't all rushing to join us?
(I had 14 much better paid years in the private sector before landing here btw)
Yes, that’s the one I can’t get till state pension age and will form well over half my CS pension.
I joined the Civil Service in 2013, so it's going to be about 95% of mine. So I try and look on the bright side (/not be too bitter about the schemes that came before 😀 ).
djflexure
You really do not get it do you.
NHS pensions - contributions exceed payments. Significantly. Its revenue funded yes - and backed by the taxpayer but what we as employees put in exceeds what the pensioners take out
Its not our fault the government have used our contributions as revenue rather than putting it in a pot!
NHS pensions – contributions exceed payments. Significantly. Its revenue funded yes – and backed by the taxpayer but what we as employees put in exceeds what the pensioners take out
Really? I'd be very suprised by that especially with the current annuity levels. The total contribution made to my company (defined contribution) scheme is 24%, I only put in 8%, and those contributions don't come anywhere close to providing the the benefits of a defined benefit scheme.
Don't misunderstand me I in no way begrudge the public sector its pension but I do suspect that those who be in receipt of it significantly underestimate its true value.
For one year - what can you tell? Really? Ultimately there is no balancing of the books on these NHS accounts. Try looking at the Universities pension fund. Increased payments over past 12 months but huge deficit when you examine the longer term and examine future liabilities.
gonefishin - its been true since the NHS started. its all about revenue and revenue exceeds outgoings and has done so since the birth of the NHS. If that surp-lus money had been invested then the pot would be huge like bigger than the national debt huge
I know my pension is worth a lot - thats one of the reasons we accept the lower pay. My terms and conditions are probably worth 15% or more on top of my wages given how crap it is in most of the private sector.
Don't mean to come across as confrontational - pensions are a minefield, retirement is a potential minefield for most of us. Hopefully I'll never retire ;). Salaried earnings be it public or private sector are going to be affected by CV.
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I'm not an accountant, so does that mean the taxpayers paid an additional £500 million or received £500 million?
There has been massive expansion in NHS staff in recent years [EWTD], particularly doctors - they will no doubt pay in a lot in terms of pension contributions; certainly enough to service the 'gold plated' pensions of those already in retirement. But who will pay their pension when the time comes? You simply can't equate what is paid in versus what is paid out in 1 year with a healthy position. As I said before if you look at the Universities scheme it gives a clearer view of what the real position might be.
The one time the public sector really can't complain is now, in general terms. No furghlurning, no pay cut, no redundancies.
We shouldn't even contemplate moaning about a pay freeze. That's largely what it's been like for the last 10 years anyhow 🙂
Edit: Oooh me P's gone. Bloody cuts.
.
You have to keep in mind that the tories aim is to reduce the public sector to commissioning only - very few direct employees. a part of this is to deliberately make it appear that we cannot afford decent pensions or terms and conditions for staff. Some of you have swallowed this nonsense wholesale
Its certain that there will be a huge effort to finish off this project to privatise the NHS and every other public service and this wqill mean huge cuts and reductions in real pay.
money in > money out does not make a pension scheme in surplace. A pension scheme should have enough assets held within it to pay out all of the pensions that are either active, or may become active at any point in the future, with the amount currently owed - ie if john has been on the job 10 years, and thus has 'earned' a £5k/year pension, from age 65, which rises with inflation and has a no payout to a widow (I'm guessing here at what a public pension contains, but I imagine its similar to that), the scheme should contain approx £200k which is allocated to john.
if you retire after 40 years as a nurse, on a career average of £35k, your pension is £26k. To achieve that with a defined contribution scheme would currently require a pot of just under a million quid, which is damn close the absolute limit of what you can have in a pension before it gets taxed to the point of being worthless. Oddly, the limit for a defined benefit pension is approx double that, so workers on modern schemes are getting screwed both ways
Hurrah.
A thread about a pending public sector pay freeze gets turned into the usual "NHS pensions are not funded" bullshit.
As noted above, I don't see any of you queueing up to do these jobs...
Stay Safe...
The one time the public sector really can’t complain is now, in general terms. No furghlurning, no pay cut, no redundancies
Yet. But in principle I agree with your point, we are much more fortunate than many at the moment.
However, it does grate that we keep having all these fantastic benefits and conditions used against us by people who for some reason aren't prepared to come and enjoy it for themselves.
A thread about a pending public sector pay freeze gets turned into the usual “NHS pensions are not funded” bullshit.
Well you can blame TJ for picking that scab. Again.
However, it does grate that we keep having all these fantastic benefits and conditions used against us by people who for some reason aren’t prepared to come and enjoy it for themselves.
I'm not seeing that feeling in this thread, quite the opposite.
Don’t misunderstand me I in no way begrudge the public sector its pension but I do suspect that those who be in receipt of it significantly underestimate its true value.
Edit:timing was never my strength
IMHO think yourselves lucky its a pay freeze, Opticians haven't had a rais in the NHS test fee for more than 5 years and have just been told they wont be getting one this year!
I work at manchester airport and we've just been told we are getting a 10% pay cut for the next twelve months!!
Pay freeze........I'd love one !!
Gobuchal – it takes in a million+ a year more than it pays out. Figures easily available
Doesn't mean a thing as the pension fund has long term liabilities, probably in the billions over the next 60 years, so the cash flow in one year is a meaningless metric.
if you retire after 40 years as a nurse, on a career average of £35k, your pension is £26k. To achieve that with a defined contribution scheme would currently require a pot of just under a million quid, which is damn close the absolute limit of what you can have in a pension before it gets taxed to the point of being worthless. Oddly, the limit for a defined benefit pension is approx double that, so workers on modern schemes are getting screwed both ways
Nice of MPs (on final salary pensions) to make sure their lifetime allowance was twice that of those on Defined Contribution pensions!
However, it does grate that we keep having all these fantastic benefits and conditions used against us by people who for some reason aren’t prepared to come and enjoy it for themselves.
Well said.
I’m surprised that nobody has picked up on the fact that not only are us public service workers keeping the country running, with the furlough scheme in place WE PAY YOUR WAGES!!!*
* see how you like it now, eh?**
** do I need to put a smiley face here for the hard of thinking ? 🤣
it does grate that we keep having all these fantastic benefits and conditions used against us by people who for some reason aren’t prepared to come and enjoy it for themselves.
Same in teaching, every day I get a load of job adverts emailed to me, plenty of room on this gravy train!
A pay cut/freeze will be supported by Sir Keir. Solidarity with the landlords!
WE PAY YOUR WAGES!!!
Except you don’t, but dont worry because public sector pay will soon be repaying the COVID-19 balance sheet off just as much private sector, so there will be parity in that.
The galling thing I find about public sector pay is that there’s NEVER an appropriate time to increase it. I distinctly recall during the early 2000s boom years calls for public sector pay to be restrained because of concerns of the inflationary effect it would have on the economy!
We can’t pay a decent wage in the best of times, we can’t pay one in the bad times and now we can’t pay one in the worst of times, even when the contribution is at its most visible and obvious to all...
No public sector furloughing? I'm aware of at least 2000 furloughed public sector staff.
Oh, I'm private sector and on 17.5% wage reduction whilst working full time with unpaid overtime an expectation.
The problem with giving public sector pay rises is that it has been lumped together into massive chunks so that any changes cost a fortune and make for headlines.
I don't really like the "we've got it tough so you should to" approach as it just feeds into the hands of those who want to make cuts and sell things off. That said if many companies are owned by pension funds and mine is anything to go by everyone has take a massive hit (20% - haven't checked in a while?) this will put pressure on the boards to recoup some value in the private sector.
If I was in a negotiation, say, as a union rep, I wouldn't be looking for a pay rise as it would be easy to justify not giving it. I would be looking at other benefits and improved conditions that don't hit the accounts so obviously. Also as my well paid doctor friends have said - some people in the NHS are doing fine - they have well paid secure jobs (when unemployment is in double digits right now?) when many don't. A more targeted approach may be needed.
The MPs managed to find themselves an extra £200pw exes for working from home on top of their £74k wage plus c£180k expenses plus a free home and they can get to be called 'Sir'. Junior doctors get £30k. The NHS has had a pay freeze (cut) since 2010 and looks like more years of this. Keir will go along with it. Meanwhile more will be outsourced. Rent debt will destroy many people. Maybe Boris gets replaced (doesn't matter which party) but no change. Shock doctrine, innit.
** do I need to put a smiley face here for the hard of thinking ? 🤣
Seriously, this was here for a reason.
Guess what, you never paid my wages either... never stopped people saying it mind...
I just thought it was an interesting juxtaposition for the private sector ranters 😜😁
That said if many companies are owned by pension funds and mine is anything to go by everyone has take a massive hit (20% – haven’t checked in a while?) this will put pressure on the boards to recoup some value in the private sector.
Was probably over 20% hit a few weeks back, but I did check mine at the WE and only down about 9% at the moment. Mind you, no one has priced in the real cost of the coming depression....
Meh, the Uk along with most of other global economy's are going to suffer. A pay freeze was to be expected. No Cash, but there you go. It is what it is.
Maybe the unions/staff organisations should look at an increase in Annual leave instead of pay?
This seems one of those "considering" headline grabbing things we've enjoyed so much since this crisis started and in every other crisis before.
The Treasury thinks it'll need to find £300bn for Coronavirus, I'm sure it's considering a lot of things, it was considering reducing Furlough payments to 65%, it was considering stopping it entirely in June.
I suspect the bad news will be spread around, we'll borrow more, we'll print more, we're shuffle the tax rules around again to make it seem like they're not increasing tax, and yes they're probably wind back promised pay rises, they usually give with one hand and take away with the other - I'm sure there will be something like a £500 Bonus for every Emergency Service worker, and at the same time a cut or freeze that will cost us 4x as much, but everyone loves a cheeky £500 don't they?
The bill for this shitstorm will be massive.
Yes, the headline grabbing figure is £300bn, but the headline grabbing figure for the Bank Crisis was £1.2tn, it didn't come to that in the end.
It's bad, but it's not the 'end of days' and it's not on the scale of the Credit Crunch.
We're all just puppets in this.
The Gov wanted the virus to be as scary as possible, because it made enforcing lock-down easier, this was the right thing to do. The Media wanted it as scary as possible because it drives interest.
Now we're over the hump and cautiously moving towards normality (or a new normal) they need new scary stories to keep it up.
2020 is going to be a rough ride, but we've had worse.
Plenty of teaching jobs landing in my inbox even now so anyone wants to climb aboard the public sector gravy train is welcome.
The public/private thing needs to stop. Ultimately we are all payed by Employers, who gains their revenue through revenue driven activity whether that customer revenues, tax revenue etc. If you have problem with pay and pension, act on it. Simple as.
The real thing to suffer may be the state pension age. I suspect that this situation will be the excuse to shove it further back again, that's if there is a state pension at all when I eventually get to the ever further away date some time in the 2040's!!
It's a scary time but it appears that the politics are suddenly being played out publicly...
I said to my wife when this started that certain parties will play politics with this and this is now happening. She said I was mad. Sad times.
Stay safe folks, and hold on for a bumpy ride...
Plenty of teaching jobs landing in my inbox even now so anyone wants to climb aboard the public sector gravy train is welcome.
Plenty of work outside the public sector too.
"If you don't like it, leave" is an oft quoted saying at our place.
God knows why anyone wants to be a teacher for any amount of money. Kids are bloody horrible! 😀
The one time the public sector really can’t complain is now, in general terms. No furghlurning, no pay cut, no redundancies.
And that cushy death in service bonus, wonder what they'll be spunking that on, the bastards.
The public/private thing needs to stop.
But they are different. If a government wants to stimulate the economy it can do that by putting more money into the public sector during a recession (or better yet before we fully realise we're in it, like now). That can reduce the depth and duration of the recession, which is good for everyone. E.g. if a hospital has money to upgrade a building or buy new equipment they're not going to get it from themselves, the money will go to a private sector organisation to do the work/supply the goods. Which is great if you're a building firm and nobody is buying houses!
the money will go to a private sector organisation to do the work/supply the goods.
What's even better is 30% or so of that comes back to HMG as PAYE, VAT etc. Plus you get gearing / multiplier effect where you generate a bigger boost in GDP than the money invested. Infrastructure has one of the best short term returns..
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49894181426_e7c9a251e8_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49894181426_e7c9a251e8_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2j1YHRm ]Fiscal multipliers[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/tnm/2014/tnm1404.pdf
Plenty of work outside the public sector too.
“If you don’t like it, leave” is an oft quoted saying at our place.
I dont want to, I like my job. Although the chronic shortage of teachers in many subjects is caused by people leaving, but increasing pay or improving conditions is never thought of to attract/retain new teachers!!
Don't worry a_a, you'll be sure to get an HR presentation involving the standard hierarchy of needs graphic, categorically proving that people aren't motivated by a pay increase. Every ****ing time I see that thing, I'm reminded of my favourite Daily Mash article:
"Price of gas set to rise", say men who set the price of gas.
No surprise there
I'd have happily have been furloughed on 80 percent salary than have to go through what I have and still are going through having caught covid at work if I'm honest
Everyone I’ve talked to in private sector who might still have a job has had some kind of pay freeze, cut, alteration etc, don’t think you’re entitled to have such a problem alone.
This.
Out of my 4 nearest neighbours 1 is being made redundant & 3 of us are expecting it before winter. Pensioners are going to take a hit too.
This is a golden time to be employed by the state.
It is as long as you dont mind getting covid, and you forget the fact you have been shafted for the last ten years and had your pension agreement thrown away all before this virus , then yes its golden
This is worth repeating:
However, it does grate that we keep having all these fantastic benefits and conditions used against us by people who for some reason aren’t prepared to come and enjoy it for themselves.
There are 40'000 nurse vacancies at present...
I thought Tories wanted to level everybody up, not drag everyone else down?
Notable that the majority of those on this thread slagging off the public sector (no matter how politely) are those who have done exactly the same on here for years.
How long before we have another thread telling us that all teachers are lazy and/or that the NHS is a waste of honest public sector worker's taxes?
I'll give it a month.
Crikey my wife has just started back with the NHS we must be gluten for punishment, she caught covid from me too after I got it at work doh...
How long before we have another thread telling us that all teachers are lazy
We are, thats why the schools are closed!!
crickey - apparently tho unlike in the private sector we do not need a pay rise to get the best staff in the NHS or to fill vacancies
Indeed.
I'm desperately trying to think of a joke about 'gluten for punishment' but it's just not working; help a brother out here!
you have been shafted for the last ten years and had your pension agreement thrown away all before this virus , then yes its golden
Snap. the private sector are hardly rolling around in our annual payrises and guaranteed pensions! in 25 years of my working life I've never had a pay rise...all my salary growth has come from career progression. And I know for a fact from friends who work in public sector (mainly teachers and NHS workers ranging from nurses to doctors) as you progress up the career ladder the rewards can easily outstrip those in the private sector.
I guess if people are constantly telling you you're being shafted and those in the private sector are being rewarded with big fat pay rises and benefits, you eventually believe it. But it just aint true I'm afraid.
Notable that the majority of those on this thread slagging off the public sector (no matter how politely) are those who have done exactly the same on here for years.
The same of those who constantly slag off the private sector usually with utter contempt with no attempt at politeness. You're in no better position to judge. Depends which side of the line you're coming from. The grass sometimes seems greener on the other side but often isn't. The myth of the hard done by public sector is a very outdated line. Just aint true. I know what the typical package of a public sector worker peer to me is and there is no way they're being shafted. Packages are easily comparable if not 10% - 15% better. But of course they believe they're hard done by because that's what they're constantly told.