I’ve received a charge certificate for £195 from the council. I probably committed the infraction (driving into a school safety zone) but I never received the PCN and therefore have lost any option of a reduced charge and have also been whacked with an extra £65. The certificate says no appeals will be entertained but is there some method to get this put back to the original fine level?
Cheers
but I never received the PCN
Why didn't you? It's obviously a requirement that a PCN is issued.
Presumably lost in the post, it’s a camera generated PCN.
I was told that when I tried this, they considered proof of posting to be proof of delivery. Not sure if this has changed though.
Presumably lost in the post
Is there not a covid related right of appeal? Can it not be proved that it happened during a period of severe staff shortages at your local Royal Mail office due to Covid?
Today I received a Christmas card that my brother posted first class on 21st December, I can only assume that it took several weeks because of Covid related staff shortages.
Is there not a covid related right of appeal? Can it not be proved that it happened during a period of severe staff shortages at your local Royal Mail office due to Covid?
I’ve chucked in an appeal anyway and will see if they read it, the delays in London post deliveries was on the local news this evening so it may well be that, I’ve no issue paying just object to the extra reaming they are insisting on 🙂
I was told that when I tried this, they considered proof of posting to be proof of delivery. Not sure if this has changed though.
They can consider what they want. .doesn't make it so.
All that proves is they posted it.
It's likely that the full fine amount can be reduced on a 'discretionary' basis eg for early payment, or for extenuating circumstances. But what that also likely means is they are under no legal obligation to offer you the discount in the first place.
Which means you probably need to throw yourself on their mercy to get the discount reinstated, rather than demand it as of right, and hope you get someone reasonable on the telephone.
Local authorities depend very much on the goodwill and support of the public, which ultimately they are there to serve.
Whilst I wouldn't necessarily get all stroppy and wind them up I would insist that you did not receive the PCN. I would point out the exceptional circumstances caused by the pandemic.
I would also make it clear that you will of course pay the full amount if they insist on not using their discretionary powers, but would hint heavily that the obvious injustice behind the issue might make an interesting story for your local newspaper.
They can consider what they want. .doesn’t make it so.
All that proves is they posted it.
You'd think so but my law tutor maintained that for the service of documents proof of postage constituted proof of delivery. Mind you, that was some 30-odd years ago in an ancillary module to a procurement course so maybe a more realistic view of the capabilities of the Royal Mail is taken now. That's if it was even true in the first place.
Ive twice done as Ernie suggests over forgetting to display a blue badge in a car park.
Personally I wouldn't mention newspapers as they might consider that a little combative.
Should be noted that I did this as part of the formal appeal procedure but I was totally at their mercy and they could simply have said "sod off" if they wished to. They didn't luckily.
Good luck.👍
They might take proof of postage as proof of delivery but can they actually prove they posted it ?
I'd never heard of a Charge Certificate so googled it and found this
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t109035.html
but sounds like you already appealed, which might have same effect.
You’d think so but my law tutor maintained that for the service of documents proof of postage constituted proof of delivery. Mind you, that was some 30-odd years ago in an ancillary module to a procurement course so maybe a more realistic view of the capabilities of the Royal Mail is taken now. That’s if it was even true in the first place.
Indeed I can just see them accepting that you posted the cheque and that's proof they received it.....
You’d think so but my law tutor maintained that for the service of documents proof of postage constituted proof of delivery
Well, it depends largely on what type of documents, but in civil litigation a document is deemed served on the second business day after posting, if posted by RM or similar. However, that presumption of service can be rebutted by actual evidence of non-receipt. Since it would be very difficult to prove a negative, that would usually be evidence by the respondent that they didn’t get it. However, if they got anything else, such as the charge certificate as appears here, it can be very difficult to persuade a judge.
I don’t know what the service rules are for traffic regulation breaches - but for example there’s a statutory instrument that deals with PCNs for parking contraventions and they provide for a presumption of valid service as described above:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/regulation/3/made
We had something similar a few years ago. My wife didn’t receive the original PCN, agreed that she’d done whatever it was they claimed and asked if she could pay to pay a reduced fee. The Local Authority said no and threatened court, so we popped into a local solicitors and she signed an affidavit* saying she’d not received the PCN. It went to court and The Local Authority were told to re-issue the original PCN, which they did and she then paid the reduced fee. All a bit daft really.
*I think it was only 20 quid back then.
Thanks all, a bit of beer fuelled digging last night suggests that if nothing happens to my email appeal I wait for the next steps and then file a statutory declaration (the affidavit mentioned above);
Registration of Debt and Order for Recovery
If after 14 days of a charge certificate being served the penalty charge is still not paid, the Enforcement Authority may register it as a debt at the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
The Enforcement Authority may then recover the penalty through the County Court:
The County Court, on application from the Enforcement Authority, will authorise the authority to draw up an Order for Recovery. The Enforcement Authority will serve this order on you, with a statutory declaration form.
If the penalty is not then paid, the authority may apply to the Court for a warrant of execution.
Your next steps
Pay the outstanding charge or lodge a statutory declaration at the traffic enforcement centre.
Statutory Declaration
Where an Order for Recovery has been made, liability for the penalty can then only be challenged in the following circumstances:
You did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice in question; or
You made representations to the Enforcement Authority concerned but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority; or
You appealed to the adjudicator against the rejection by the Enforcement Authority of your representations but had no response to the appeal.
If, and only if, one of these applies, you may make a statutory declaration.
The completed statutory declaration should be returned to the traffic enforcement centre within 21 days beginning with the date of service of the Order for Recovery, although there are provisions for the court to allow longer.
What happens next depends on the grounds for making the statutory declaration.
If the ground is that the Penalty Charge Notice was not received, the Order for Recovery, Charge Certificate and Penalty Charge Notice are cancelled. The Enforcement Authority may then issue a new Penalty Charge Notice;
Seems a bit of an overly complicated process but presumably they rely on people just not bothering.
You’d think so but my law tutor maintained that for the service of documents proof of postage constituted proof of delivery. Mind you, that was some 30-odd years ago in an ancillary module to a procurement course so maybe a more realistic view of the capabilities of the Royal Mail is taken now. That’s if it was even true in the first place.
S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 apparently.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
I suppose one could try and prove to the contrary with reporting on the current postal service COVID issues but it does seem as though I may not have to go down that road yet.
kilo, yes that’s the process we followed. I think you’re right, most people will just roll over and pay. It all sounds a bit complicated, but really wasn’t.
Unless using tracked post where you can show it wasn't received (example, my wife ordered some stuff for Christmas that the co said was delivered, supplied a POD signature and then when we checked the tracking they'd sent, turned out to have been sent to a different address) - how do you prove it wasn't received?
I guess that's where the sworn statement comes in, 'cos no-one ever lies any more, especially in a formal setting do they!!
I would suggest that if proof of posting is proof of receipt, then it is up to them to prove that they sent the "letter". Not just the system generates a letter, but a when was it sent, to what address, and what postage? I would guess proving all that is hard.
Having tried the whole proof of postage thing in the Small Claims Court I can say with some confidence it's a hiding to nowhere...
