[Closed] Another one

Hard to properly comment without full information and a vague description of the ‘e-bike’.

The one in Cardiff was an illegal Sur-On and the alternative to following is just be to let youths race around illegally at high speed on them as they like.

I’ve seen a few in Bristol - young lads dressed fully in black with full face helmets / balaclavas on pelting down cycle tracks and main roads - often on the back wheel only. Looking very menacing.

Feels like they need cutting off at source - clearly these aren’t electric motocross bikes used on motocross tracks - where else are they going to be used - private land? Clearly they’re going to be used illegally to a large extent.

It's so frustrating, if it goes over 15mph assisted or has a throttle its not a flippin' E-bike, its an electric motorbike!!

Lazy journalism is going to get the whole micro mobility sector clobbered at this rate.

I have complained to BBC to correct article from e-bike to electric motorbike

Good idea I may do likewise

Glad it's not just me that getting pissed off with them saying e-bikes all the time.

I absolutely detest the lazy, headline grabbing journalism this country has to endure. Trouble is, 52% of the muppets believe it.

Sorry. 52% that are muppets believe it.

Thinking back a couple of years ago I recall someone on here complaining about e-bikes/electric motorbikes and how dangerous they were. I have to admit that I was one of those that thought they were talking ball cocks and just making a big deal about e-bikes because they were a 'proper' cyclist. I now realise they were entirely right and I, for one, had no idea about the much more highly-powered electric motorbikes. Working in central Leeds, I now have a much better understanding of the difference, especially with all the JustGoUberDeliverEatOo delivery bods flying up and down the pedestrianised streets in the centre.

Legal ebikes and scooters should be revolutionising urban transport and commuting, but headlines like this aren't going to help.

Has anyone actually identified this as anything other than an Ebike ?. Or is it just a case of spouting off, complaining to the bbc without any real facts to support it.

If on an Ebike and you ride into the back of a vehicle with a large flat rear end and have no lid, then serious brain injury can occur, or even a broken neck.

Glad it’s not just me that getting pissed off with them saying e-bikes all the time

I think the inevitably of the govt/police being forced to properly regulate/crackdown is probably close now, but also think unfortunately it still needs more carnage/tragedies/headlines first.

I frequent a FB page for 'Ebikers over 60' with 33k+ members, admittedly over 90% live in the States but quite a few UK members. Following on with @MoreCashThanDash post ^^ These riders are in their 60s, 70s, 80s & a few 90s. They're not mtbers (well some are) but in the main older folk who have found ebikes fun for doing their shopping, exercise, visiting places & health benefits. This should be promoted more here in the UK like Europe does. Mind you riding on the road probably scares many off. Seeing some of the photos showing miles of paved cycling & shared trails the old folk are starting to embrace ebikes. USA has three classes 1,2 & 3 & only class 1 ebikes are allowed on all trails. Majority go for class 2 which have a throttle. They also have the downside of e-motorbikes like the Suron & that's what the politicians will see & legislate for.

govt/police being forced to properly regulate/crackdown is probably close now.

I wouldn't hold your breath.
Every other commuter/delivery bike I saw on my last london visit appeared to be an illegal.
Most going a lot faster than 15mph,this was on a busy commuting route in to central London.
Super cheap transport for commuters and delivery bods,it's not going away and there is(IMO) no simple way to police it.

I wouldn’t hold your breath.

Has anyone actually identified this as anything other than an Ebike ?. Or is it just a case of spouting off, complaining to the bbc without any real facts to support it.

I don't know if this new one in Salford is and actual e-bike that you have to pedal, an electric mortorbike or some other concoction of wheels and an electric motor. I'm more pee'd off about the one in Cardiff constantly being called an e-bike when it's clearly not, and the affect this sort of press will/could have on how normal cyclists/people on bikes (inc legal e-bikes) are viewed. Its bad enough at the best of times, but if people just associate illegal electric motorbikes with normal bikes it never gonna get any better.

The government really need to get to grips with whats what!

I'm also deliberately not mentioning anything about the people riding them in these two instancies as I don't want to get into a debate about whether they were wronguns or just kids dicking about.

I've now submitted my complaint, if any of you want to do likewise here's the text in case you'd like a short cut for doing likewise.

Could you please get your facts straight when discussing the recent spate of tragic incidents involving teenagers on "high powered e-bikes"

Legally an E-bike is a pedal assist bicycle where the assistance cuts out at 15MPH/25KMPH, these are legal to ride anywhere you can ride a normal bicycle and when made properly they are no less safe, they stand to be vital part of solving the traffic and pollution conundrum in our cities. There is a whole industry sector developing to help people switch to this safe, convenient and low carbon transport option.

What the teenagers in Ely were riding was a Sur Ron electric motorcycle, these are not pedal assist, have a throttle, can go well over 40MPH and are governed by the same laws as petrol models, requiring number plates, insurance, a helmet etc. They are categorically NOT E-bikes.

This also goes for the cheap 'conversion kits' you can buy from China online which are so beloved by food delivery riders, if it has a throttle and goes above 15MPH, it's not an E-bike, it's an Electric motorcycle.

Judging from the outlines of the story in Salford, once again this youth was riding an non-road legal electric motorcycle, not an E-bike.

Please stop conflating the two, safe, legal E-bikes are not the problem. Unlicensed, non-road legal Electric Motorcycles, the manufacturers who aggressively market them to impressionable teenagers on social media and the criminals who use them to run drugs, evade the police and terrorise local communities are.

If E-bikes continue to be incorrectly associated with this there is a risk of a knee jerk government reaction that will end up strangling the positive potential of legal E-bikes for improving the transport mix in the UK.

Better regulation and enforcement of Electric Motorcycles is urgently required or we are going to keep seeing these tragic incidents but please get your terminology straight. E-Bikes are not the problem here.

Yours Faithfully

There’s a photo of the bike lying on its side on bbc news now. It has triple clamp forks, wide tyres and looks like it has motorbike pegs on it rather than pedals. Seems to be a Sur-On or similar again. Not an e-bicycle / pedalac.

Also a picture of the ambulance he hit - starred / smashed windscreen so pretty much a head on crash and the ambulance wasn’t under blue lights, so presumably just driving normally.

It’s sad that someone has died obviously - but it seems they were riding illegally on the road - and probably (bit of a jump) driving recklessly. Had clearly driven down a road with bollards so the police vehicle couldn’t follow.

If this gets more and more common then something needs to be done to cut off the source of these bikes.

According to the Guardian he was seen doing around 50 MPH along residential streets just before the crash, so yeah, non-Road legal Electric Motorbike, not an E-bike.

If you look at the scenes of both incidents there is a "rat run" that exits on to road where the wrecks happened.

The BBC article for the Salford crash gives the names of the three streets involved.

The boy was followed by officers along Fitzwarren Street and on to Lower Seedley Road at about 14:00 BST before the crash on Langworthy Road.

Lower Seedley Road is blocked with a constriction. Could the kid have gone down there to lose the Police vehicle?

Or is it just a case of spouting off, complaining to the bbc without any real facts to support it.

Super cheap transport for commuters and delivery bods,it’s not going away and there is(IMO) no simple way to police it.

This is absolutely correct but a better use of the terminology by the police and media would be a big step in the right direction

Are those foot pegs?

I have complained again - there are tv, radio and BBC website articles all referring to eBikes - one presenter even confidently speaking about them being speed limited and legal as ebikes...

who are you all complaining to? Is there an email or web form?

I did have a look but coudn't find anything about news reporting.

The Guardian also referred to it as an e-bike.

I'm down in Salford every month for work and there's no shortage of kids racing around on Surron type bikes.

I suspect a clampdown is coming but I doubt the typical urban Surron rider will care

One of the photos I've seen shows two 'friends' visiting where the flowers are, both on Sur-Rons  Got two lads round here that are a menace - nearly hit me twice on my commute home !

who are you all complaining to? Is there an email or web form?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/

This whole situation is not helped by these kind of videos. At no point during this video does Sam Pilgrim say that some of what he's doing is illegal.

Some of what he's doing is on obviously public land - not very clever Sam :o(

Complaint filed - and I suggested they might want to do a bit of investigative reporting into the popularity of e-motorbikes in light of these deaths.

The Sam Pilgrim video is a good representation of the issues faced - there is absolutely no mention at all of responsible riding, landowners permission or the fact that he doesn't ride on the road etc. And is seen as 'the coolest' by so many people.
I have been slated on here for saying I don't like the guys irresponsible riding and content, his chutzpah and lack of responsibility.

Tragic is what I take from this.

The effect on the ambulance crew is indeed a tragedy.

If they'd hit a child and killed them it would be a tragedy.

The rider chose to ride an illegal motorbike in a dangerous manner, probably with inadequate protection. It's 100% on the suron rider, and I say that as someone who rides motorbike.

The rider chose to ride an illegal motorbike in a dangerous manner, probably with inadequate protection. It’s 100% on the suron rider

FFS, still a child.

I'm not condoning any of this but try to have some compassion, the bike didn't come into their posession out of thin air.

Above the age of criminal responsibility, and by 15 should know better. I say that as a parent.

Drac is probably in the best position to answer in fact - how long is that ambulance and it's crew going to be off the road?

And how many people might die or suffer health complications as a result? That would be a tragedy - over which the victims have no control.

I'm going to personally file running from the police, on an illegal motorcycle, with no helmet as a fairly obvious path of cause and effect.

Tragic is what I take from this.

I agree.

But it has been a growing issue for a few years - from off-road petrol bikes, through scooter gangs, e-scooters and now electric motorbikes. And the most vulnerable are suffering from not enough action to protect them and the public. 🙁

<p style="text-align: left;">And that is a key question in this. How did he come to be in possession of the bike?</p>
I'm also wondering if they're easier to go fast on that the good old fashioned 2-stroke MX bikes previously desired by the loveable scallywags with hearts of gold. As there is a certain barrier to enter with those as they'll spit you off the back from a standstill.

Drac is probably in the best position to answer in fact – how long is that ambulance and it’s crew going to be off the road?

Hopefully they receive the right support. Not an easy to answer question as it’ll be down to the individuals.

The rider chose to ride an illegal motorbike in a dangerous manner, probably with inadequate protection. It’s 100% on the suron rider, and I say that as someone who rides motorbike.

WOW! I could say more but I’d have to ban myself.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65855198

See there it is, you had a choice and made the right one as you foresaw the consequences. Which by 15 everyone should be capable of, especially with big, dangerous choices.

Funnily enough I never "borrowed" one of my dad's motorbikes from the garage, as by that age I'd been parented to be capable of understanding that it was a terrible idea.

And one of the major importers of the things clearly classes them as motorbikes...

https://www.englishelectricmotorco.com/ sur-ron-motorcycles/

I guess at least the BBC have published that article, not that the people who need to will likely read it!

Edit: Already posted above.

BBC article

now states it was a "Sur-Ron e-bike". Yes they refer to it as an e-bike.

From that BBC article,

But what constitutes a road-legal e-bike isn't straightforward....

FFS, it really is! There are 3 main criteria, power, speed and no throttle.  Not hard at all.

"We don't think regulation is keeping track with the technological advancements around e-bikes." says Salford Councillor.

The counter argument there is the regulation is fine, it's just not being enforced.

I think most major cities could deal with illegal electrical motorbikes easily. Have police set up checks on main roads with takeaways and pick off the deliveroo crew. If they did this regularly then folk would stop buying them.  If they handed out fines for using them then it would counter the the police don't have the funds to do this lobby.

Having said that deliveroo and uber eats riders are great training for the mega. BMX elbows are regularly out on the commute out of Manchester as they seem to think they are riding in a peleton.  Still yet to dump one out of a moto but there have been a few close calls!

I've complained to the BBC and included a link to the government advice at https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules . I had a look at a few websites earlier in the day to check whether it was a Sur-Ron or e-bike and it has to be said the referring to Sur-Rons as e-bikes is endemic across pretty much all the media, not just the BBC.

Simples -

anything above 250w = motorbike.

Surron's = bike life ****ers/drug dealers.

Two of them got mangled about 12 months ago at the bottom of our road - road shut off for hours. Car pulled out from side road as these two 'adults' (in their 20's) barrelled down the road at high speed - vision lines are hard due to hedges and parked cars.

Effectively driver's fault, but they weren't doing 20 mph speed limit over the speed humps.  Both got nasty injuries. Poor driver was badly affected too.  Thing is, the local facebook page went into meltdown as a member of their family came on 'the discussion'. Oh nice lads etc etc. They weren't, they were local scallies that were always tearing about on these Sur-Rons.They actually had lids on fortunately !

It used to happen with MX bikes, but at least you could hear them coming.

.

Here we go again, same issues, same apologists. I have empathy for the fact someone has died, I have no sympathy for those who caused or enabled this which includes the rider. Regulation needs to be on the sale of these, once they are on the road they are almost impossible to stop and when it inevitably ends in tragedy the hand wringer have a field day.

Big question is will this get to 3 pages before it's closed or not.

The police can’t stop them using current resources- it’s no good chasing a bike in a car, so they’re damned if they do damned if they don’t.

Anyway,  perhaps we should all start calling them e-cycles instead and maybe try and get retailers of e-cycles to adopt the same name… 🤷‍♂️

Woffor?

I dunno to stop people thinking e-cycles are a problem when it’s e-bikes that are causing a few issues maybe. Or maybe not, perhaps we don’t really care what they’re called as it probably doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to anyone in reality. Just musing I guess.

Genuine question: is there a legal definition of an 'e-bike'? Is it possible a pedal assist bicycle and an electric moto can fairly be termed an e-bike?

I think the inevitably of the govt/police being forced to properly regulate/crackdown is probably close now

Presumably the regulation is already there. It's a motorised vehicle and treated as such. There's no special regulation for electric cars that I'm aware of? And even if there was, they'd surely have applied the same to electric motorbikes. The issue is a cultural one and with what people think they can get away with. Policing is quite possibly part of that.

Above the age of criminal responsibility, and by 15 should know better.

I was an idiot at 15. I'd be inclined to say the society that allowed a child to feel comfortable blasting round the streets on an illegal motorbike shares a portion of the blame.

Dictionary definition of Darwinism. Hope the ambulance service can claim off the scratters family for the damage.

Pass my microscopic violin.

Two of them got mangled about 12 months ago at the bottom of our road – road shut off for hours. Car pulled out from side road as these two ‘adults’ (in their 20’s) barrelled down the road at high speed – vision lines are hard due to hedges and parked cars.

I had a MX'er bike life ****er ride into the side of my van then bounce into a bus shelter. Heli ambulance involved.

His mate turned up in a Golf R and tried getting the bike away. Was unrolling cash to fix my van door. Rang police.

Police confiscated his off-road bike, fined him 6points plus whatever costs, he lost his job. He then claimed £25k costs against my insurer who didn't contest.

My insurance became unaffordable so I sorned it and pedalled to work for a year. Lost interest in it as I was just about to camper convert it.

I'm miles behind here... whats the differebce between the two names?

The counter argument there is the regulation is fine, it’s just not being enforced.

I  will stand corrected ,but I doubt  very much that there is any workable  'regulation' in place.

With the speed that the sales of electric scooters (stand on type) and electric motorbikes (Sur Ron types) took off,the police/government has been trying to play catch up (with regards to regulation/enforcement) from day one.

I used to live round the corner from Langworthy Road, where it happened. It’s scrote central even by Salford standards

I’d imagine GMP are bracing themselves for a pretty lively old evening around the precinct

@fasthaggis It would be really interesting to know how many unlicensed electric motorbikes GMP have seized in the last 12 months. I’d bet it’s not a big number.

Usual platitudes on the radio this afternoon quoting his mum. Lovely, charming, happy youmg lad etc.

Bet he wasn't, bet he was your stereotypical yoof.  Out late being a knob, hanging round with half a dozen other knobs in tracksuits. Generally being a dick and making a nuisance of himself. I wish for once someone from his school would come on the radio and say, Yep Alfie was a total throbber who couldn't ride the electric motor bike his dad bought him for toffee and I'm not surprised he's crashed at all

I was in Plymouth a few days ago, and was amazed at just how many illegal electrical motorbikes were to be seen being ridden around the centre in a few short hours.  Bleedin' obvious too - doing 20-30mph whilst not pedalling, or more if downhill.

In part they need to legislate against sale and import ad it's fhecken obvious they're gonna get used on streets and not private land.

His brothers currently locked up for murder and dealing heroin and crack...

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/staggering-drugs-empire-7000-week-22908128

Organ donor in the UK by default, nice young healthy, well subject not being in deep into above, organs for deserving people to receive, make something good out of something you can't really alter, no matter the laws/enforcement.

I don't like some of the attitudes about a 15 year old in this thread.

Until you've walked in someone else's poverty restricted, socially broken and reduced hope life, it's inappropriate to condemn someone so vulnerable and young - no matter how big thier mistakes. He's paid the ultimate price for his mistakes.

Lower Seedley Road is blocked with a constriction. Could the kid have gone down there to lose the Police vehicle?

I saw the news reports earlier; the kid rode into the dead-end road, with the police following. He rode between the bollards heading towards another road on the opposite side, knowing almost certainly that the police couldn’t follow him, and as he went through the bollards, the ambulance, which wasn’t on a shout, came up the road from the kid’s left, and hit him as he went directly in front of it. As a result his head hit the windscreen in the lower right hand corner. It really doesn’t take much imagination to see the exact circumstances behind what happened. I see stupid little shits tearing around on very similar bikes, no helmets, hoods up, often on footpaths as well, including one at the top of my road, which is a shared-use path, and has a tall hedge alongside; the idiots, often two-up as well, come straight out from behind the hedge and onto the road, it’s only a matter of time before the exact same situation happens, because my road is regularly used by ambulances and fire engines on emergency shouts, and they aren’t pissing around when they come past my house, which is barely fifty meters from the B-road, (used to be the A350), that it joins. There will be a tragedy, I’m sure of it - I’ve seen enough accidents already on that junction over the nearly fifty years I’ve lived here.

Until you’ve walked in someone else’s poverty restricted, socially broken and reduced hope life, it’s inappropriate to condemn someone so vulnerable and young

Remind me, how much are these motorcycles again? Enquiring minds want to know.

Is it possible a pedal assist bicycle and an electric moto can fairly be termed an e-bike?

it’s pretty normal for motorcycles and bicycles to both be referred to as  bikes.

i think it would be more appropriate in news reports  to call them electric motorcycles. this would go a long way tom distinguishing them from electric bicycles.

Remind me, how much are these motorcycles again? Enquiring minds want to know.

Agreed.
I'm not here to defend thier actions - and certainly not a decision to procure a motorbike and ride it in the manner they do. A death of a 15 year old child is tragic, no matter the circumstances. Thier background is an irrelevance.

I had hoped for compassion not vengeance.

I'm disappointed that some seem to think death is a suitable punishment for a child. I wonder if they think we should bring back the death penalty, maybe for theft or dangerous driving, and perhaps they are happy to enact that punishment on thier own children should they find themselves having made a mistake?

I do believe that we need to support these families and communities more - the deaths from riding these motorbikes is the tip of an iceberg of deaths and harm through so many mechanisms. The deaths are a frosting on a broken and unhappy community and families, where society cannot seem to resource and help in he way which is needed.

I'm struggling to articulate this well.

I’m struggling to articulate this well.

I'd say you are articulating it well mate. 👏

I’m not sure anybody thinks death is a suitable punishment (well certainly not me anyhow), but there is an inevitability to kids thrashing these things around.

Overall, it is tragic for all involved.

Personally I think the police need greater powers/to do more/better resourcing to do so

Mixed thoughts (again)

Plenty of people are brought up in difficult conditions and don't become feral scrotes, so I don't think you get a free pass because of difficult upbringings. But I do recognise that the two can be linked (plenty of scrotes with privileged, even dare I say Etonian upbringings, let's be honest)

Taking aside how he / they get these expensive electric motorcycles, there's no doubt wazzing around on them without regard for the law and their own and other's safety deserves some kind of punishment. But not a death penalty, that's a tragedy whatever and anyone celebrating that is a right ****

A few more deaths and maybe the govt will do something?

How much does a Sur-Ron cost? About £100 p/m

How do their loving parents feel after buying them expensive illegal toys that can only be ridden off road and KNOWING their little angels will be caning them up and down the roads. Bottom of the hill near my house yesterday early evening I saw a group of local lads in their late teens. One of them on a Sur Ron had a face mask on and his hood pulled up. Lets just say he wasn't wearing it in last night's heat for protection from the elements.

Personally I think the police need greater powers/to do more/better resourcing to do so

This.

Plus properly funded and supported youth services, education, vocational training, affordable social housing....